Scotland 2020 Internationals

First topic message reminder :

With club rugby in Europe back up and running I thought it might be time to begin a new International thread.

Scotland's Upcoming 2020 International Fixtures

Warm Up

Scotland vs Georgia 23rd October BT Murrayfield (KO TBC)

6 Nations

Wales vs Scotland 31st October 2.15pm KO (venue TBC)

Eight Nations Tournament pool games

Italy vs Scotland November 14th November 12.45pm KO (Venue TBC)

Scotland vs France 22nd November 3pm KO BT Murrayfield

Scotland vs Fiji 28th November 1.45pm KO BT Murrayfield

December 5th Eight Nations play-off matches (1st vs 1st, 2nd vs 2nd, 3rd vs 3rd, 4th vs 4th)

It was odd to see four Scottish players on the pitch seeing out a close game on a big occasion. I think all four of them could step in and add to our squad. It's a shame that SHC seems to be persona non grata in Scotland terms.
I don't think we've learnt anything with a view to next week over the last two weekends. Wales seem to be off the pace, but under Gatland they trademarked the slow first game and quality second game. We know our guys can show up against Tier 2 one week and fall flat against Tier 1 the week after.
I am quite excited about the potential Scotland side this autumn, all our best players seem to be fit and, perhaps for the first time I can remember we could put out two strong XVs. Which almost certainly means Toonie will conspire to pick Dan Parks, Hugo Southwell and Al Strockosch, within the first five minutes there'll be two intercept tries.
It might be the lockdown juice talking, but I genuinely think we could sweep this autumn if everything clicks.

Wales were pretty poor, which probably isn't a good thing for us as I expect a big backlash next weekend. One things for sure is we can't pick a stodgy midfield as their defence struggled with the French pace and power. We don't have a Vakatawa (polar opposite in fact!) but we do have a Duhan, and we need to bring him into the game hitting soft shoulders instead of hanging out wide all day. Wales aren't the same team without a physical presence at 12 IMO - Tompkins is far more effective at 13.

Hard to know what to make of the Georgia game - if we're being honest, it was a reasonable hit out against a team that played very, very badly. The positives really were that the pack stood up well and I might not wince the next time I see Scott Cummings name on the team sheet.

Aside from that, I agree with the comments above that we don't really know much more as a result of this. Hastings looks very average at times, something which will obviously get better with game time. His fitness is a plus but the gap between him and Russell is clearly enormous so I'm not going to pile on the pejoratives.

I just don't watch Harris week in, week out, so I don't have any sense as to what he offers which St Shug (who scored in another annoying loss to the Ospreys) does not. I still think that Sambo and St Shug should be persevered with - they just create more between them.

Important to be real, however. Beating Wales really should matter to us - we need the World Rugby points if nothing else. That only happens with Russell, Hogg and (for me) Samwise starting. I am more relaxed about the wing position - VDM and Darcy is probably the future over the next 2-4 years so I am happy to persist with them. NoSociallyDistancedMaits is still the first choice for the bench given his ability to play 15 well.

I also agree with the comment that the big difference for Wales this year may be that their defence looks less than watertight which is a big change for them.

Thank feck we are playing France at home because we may well have been horsed in Paris.

Slightly off topic but I just realised Darcy Graham has scored 7 tries in 11 caps. That really is a remarkable strike rate so far! He will be challenging stangers record by the time he's 25! (Although by that point of course it may be Hoggs record)

RDW wrote:Wales were pretty poor, which probably isn't a good thing for us as I expect a big backlash next weekend. One things for sure is we can't pick a stodgy midfield as their defence struggled with the French pace and power. We don't have a Vakatawa (polar opposite in fact!) but we do have a Duhan, and we need to bring him into the game hitting soft shoulders instead of hanging out wide all day. Wales aren't the same team without a physical presence at 12 IMO - Tompkins is far more effective at 13.

Yeah you felt like they really missed Parkes. That fella they have at Cardiff Blues looks like he could be a good replacement for him but I think he was injured for a while. It would be nice to see Duhan pooping up in midfield for more inside passes vs Wales. He quite often breaks one on one tackles.

Well, if we look at last night in terms of who might get called up by Toonie,

Turner put himself about and was unlucky not to score

Big Ritchie both Cummings and Toolis are ahead of him on current form, though he is probably ahead of Broken Glass.

Mullett put himself about but Mbawza and Hamish are doing a fine job of that.

Sam Johnson should be given the 12 jersey now. Someone referred to the Lang-Harris pairing as a pair of wooden Indians, Smiling Sam was more inventive and animated last night than both of them put together on Friday.

Squiggsy, typified Glasgow's performance; lots of good lines, breaks but in the end failed to produce anything concrete. We surely can't have him and Blarehorn both doing that against Wales.

Ratu. Is he the new Socially Distanced No Maits? Solid, reliable makes smart choices more often than not. Like a Chris Harris in the back three! DVDN-Hogg-ADHD to start, but Ratu or Blarehorn as a squad/bench? Toonie has made more perplexing choices.

SHUGGIE SHUGGIE SHUGGIE!!! Oi Toonie OI!!! see what I did there? was very, very good. Toonie should be bringing him a full Scottish fry up this morning and telling him he'll be in Cardiff on Saturday.

p.s. I don't want to get anyone in trouble

But I'd love to know which of the Baabaas said,

"Look, if we all go out for a beer what can they do? They can't drop all of us can they?"

You just know someone said that.

If be amazed if the team selection was far off this:

1 Sutherland
2 Brown
3 Fagerson
4 J Gray
5 Cummings
6 Ritchie
7 Watson
8 ?
9 Price
10 Russell
11 VDM
12 Johnson
13 Harris
14 Graham
15 Hogg

Subs - Kebble, Mcinally, Berghan, ?, ? Horne, Hastings, ?

With the unknowns being number 8, reserve lock and reserve back row. I'd go Haining start, Toolis, Fagerson/CDP and Jones bench, although I can see him picking Skinner. Haining doesn't have any form really but he did well thrown in at the deep end in the 6N!

See that's why you were transported to the colonies.

Four question marks in your 23 and only three "unknown numbers" in your footnote. have a heart there are ex-front rows reading this and trying to think.

Matt Fagerson, if recovered from the ankle injury, will play 8.

Toolis will be in the 23.

Haining will fight BBB after breakfast on Monday for the bench spot.

SHUGGIE SHUGGIE SHUGGIE will be 23.

jimbopip wrote:See that's why you were transported to the colonies.

Jones would certainly be in my 23 ahead of Kinghorn but I get the feeling Toonie will go with Kinghorn or Maitland. No bad choices really! Toolis probably deserves a bench spot and Haining should be there I think. I’ve liked him for Scotland so far. Du Preez or Haining to start maybe? Exeter Chiefs second row.

bsando wrote:Jones would certainly be in my 23 ahead of Kinghorn but I get the feeling Toonie will go with Kinghorn or Maitland. No bad choices really! Toolis probably deserves a bench spot and Haining should be there I think. I’ve liked him for Scotland so far. Du Preez or Haining to start maybe? Exeter Chiefs second row.

To be fair, I think kinghorn would be a bad choice at the moment, especially when you consider the alternative who is currently playing very well at Glasgow.

Du Perez PREEZ was a bit... Eh. I wouldn't be surprised if Toonie opts to stick Skinner in the back row. If Fagerson is fit I'd put him back in, he looked good until he was forced off.

Congrats to the ladies who just drew with France, they're certainly improving which is remarkable given that our ladies player pool is about 23 people!

I've only seen the first 50 mins of the ladies game, and they have improved so much. Still room for improvement, but France have hammered them previously, so big congrats to the squad and management. Onwards and upwards.

I only saw the Women's highlights, but what a great result.

France were perhaps unlucky to have gone down to 14 on account of having used all their substitutions for the last 20 mins, but them's the breaks - they must have been softened up well.

Konkel looks a real player.

Great result for the ladies. Can only hope they can turn over Wales as well!

Tend to agree with RDW with the four unknowns. Toolis played well against an outclassed Georgia and Skinner went 80 minutes for Exeter in a battle with Wasps. I think Skinner is the better option for the bench spot because of the versatility he offers if the back-row needs a different balance. Would be a shame for Toolis as he had a good game and did nothing to deserve getting dropped.

Assuming M Fagerson is not around, I would guess Haining and CDP will be starter/reserve in whatever order. A problem position.

H Jones, for whatever reason, is not in the squad and looks to need a rethink from Toonie to be the 23. He would cover 11-15 and is in contention to become the next R Vernon. Would tend to agree it will be Kinghorn or Maitland. Grigg would be my left field choice as Hastings covers 15 and Harris can swap to wing. Lord help us if whomever is inside centre gets injured.

As predicted Maitland dropped from the Scotland squad for his Barbarian antics. Toonie kind of looks like he has left the door open for him to come back in at a later stage.

Tagive comes into the squad in his place, he may well have been considered unlucky to not have been picked in the first place.

Hoyland and Gilchrist are out for the whole series, Fagerson stays with the squad, so is hopefully not that bad.

Does this mean that Shuggie Shuggie Shuggie Oi Toonie Oi!!! is still in Purdah?

jimbopip wrote:Does this mean that Shuggie Shuggie Shuggie Oi Toonie Oi!!! is still in Purdah?

No, he was already in the squad

Whether Toonie picks him or not is another matter thought!

We need Shuggie at 13 and Harris at 23.

Ah thank you Gee.

I got confused with him playing on Saturday.

So;
1. Sutherland
2. Chuckles
3. Ragnar
4. Ickle Jonny (Toolis to bench as Jonny wouldn't ever be an impact sub)
5. Cummings
6. Mbawza
7. Hamish Fae The Glen
8. Middle F (Haining to bench)
9. Aldi Price ( who has a lot to exorcize at the Minnellium) (Hornito)
10 Dancer (Haircut)
11. ADHD Kid
12. Smiling Sam
13. Scottish James Brown
14. DVDM
15 Shuggie (Ratu to bench)

Anglobraveheart wrote:We need Shuggie at 13 and Harris at 23.

Harris 13
Shuggie 15
Blarehorn naughty step

jimbopip wrote:Ah thank you Gee.

I got confused with him playing on Saturday.

So;
1. Sutherland
2. Chuckles
3. Ragnar
4. Ickle Jonny (Toolis to bench as Jonny wouldn't ever be an impact sub)
5. Cummings
6. Mbawza
7. Hamish Fae The Glen
8. Middle F (Haining to bench)
9. Aldi Price ( who has a lot to exorcize at the Minnellium)  (Hornito)
10 Dancer  (Haircut)
11. ADHD Kid
12. Smiling Sam
13. Scottish James Brown
14. DVDM
15 Shuggie (Ratu to bench)

I know you like your pedantry Jimbo, so a few things:

Whilst Jonny isn't an overly impactful player, he made a huge impact off the bench in the final at the weekend. He's had a tough run of games so bench may be a good option. I suspect he'll start though.

The game is at the Scarlets Ground, not Millennium (which is also now called the Principality)

VDM is 11 and Graham is 14. It makes a difference (although you fatboy forwards would never understand)

Hogg will definitely be starting 15, if he's fit.

RDW wrote:

jimbopip wrote:Ah thank you Gee.

I got confused with him playing on Saturday.

So;
1. Sutherland
2. Chuckles
3. Ragnar
4. Ickle Jonny (Toolis to bench as Jonny wouldn't ever be an impact sub)
5. Cummings
6. Mbawza
7. Hamish Fae The Glen
8. Middle F (Haining to bench)
9. Aldi Price ( who has a lot to exorcize at the Minnellium)  (Hornito)
10 Dancer  (Haircut)
11. ADHD Kid
12. Smiling Sam
13. Scottish James Brown
14. DVDM
15 Shuggie (Ratu to bench)

I know you like your pedantry Jimbo, so a few things:

Whilst Jonny isn't an overly impactful player, he made a huge impact off the bench in the final at the weekend. He's had a tough run of games so bench may be a good option. I suspect he'll start though.

The game is at the Scarlets Ground, not Millennium (which is also now called the Principality)

VDM is 11 and Graham is 14. It makes a difference (although you fatboy forwards would never understand)

Hogg will definitely be starting 15, if he's fit.

You missed one, Matg Faherson is injured hor this one.

And I have sausage fingers.

11 and 14 are exactly the same. Stand out wide. Keep clean. Pretend the centres aren’t passing you the ball correctly.

Wingers. The backs who can’t pass

Most boring and easiest position to play

Anyway. Back to Scotland.

Anyone who thinks Harris should be on the bench is a nutter. Imagine there’s 10 mins to go. You need a converted try to win the game. You look over to your bench for an inspirational game changer and you see Chris Harris sitting there.

Go home. Just go home now.

tigertattie wrote:11 and 14 are exactly the same. Stand out wide. Keep clean. Pretend the centres aren’t passing you the ball correctly.

Wingers. The backs who can’t pass

Most boring and easiest position to play

Anyway. Back to Scotland.

Anyone who thinks Harris should be on the bench is a nutter. Imagine there’s 10 mins to go. You need a converted try to win the game. You look over to your bench for an inspirational game changer and you see Chris Harris sitting there.

Go home. Just go home now.  

I'd rather have Huw Jones on the pitch for 70 minutes and Harris on the bench than the other way round.
Let's be honest, Harris is a workmanlike, steady club player, who managed 1 decent pass and 2 knock ons against Georgia. Jones is an attacking threat, who, in conjunction with Sam Johnson will give us a decent combination to complement the rest of our talented backline.
The Lang Harris combination was like slow setting concrete in comparison.
The only reason that I'm suggesting Harris on the bench is because he covers centre and wing, and all of the other flexible options are injured, omitted, off form or overlooked. Maybe Tagive would be an alternative to Harris, but neither inspire me.

How have we gone from a pool of Taylor, scott, Bennett, Dunbar to Lang and Harris?

Sad times

tigertattie wrote:11 and 14 are exactly the same. Stand out wide. Keep clean. Pretend the centres aren’t passing you the ball correctly.

Wingers. The backs who can’t pass

Most boring and easiest position to play

Anyway. Back to Scotland.

Anyone who thinks Harris should be on the bench is a nutter. Imagine there’s 10 mins to go. You need a converted try to win the game. You look over to your bench for an inspirational game changer and you see Chris Harris sitting there.

Go home. Just go home now.  

I'm not even going to start on that!

As for Harris on bench, imagine we're 5 points up and Wales bring some greased lightening off the bench (i.e. Rees-Zammit) and we need to solidify the midfield and close out the game. Harris is your man!

But most likely, he's going to start.

Taylor - Permacrook

Scott - Not been setting the heather on fire down south

Dunbar - Permacrook

Bennett - Given up the will to live playing in the Edinburgh backline


One thing you can say about Harris is that he is fairly robust!


I think our centres will look a lot better with Johnson at 12. Hard to judge Lang on one game, he certainly looked very good playing for Quins in the early part of last season before getting injured, so he may get another crack, but not against Wales I feel. harris certainly looks a lot more assured now after a few caps than when he started off.

I think we all hope to see Shuggy get a run at 13 sometime during this autumn though and remind Toonie what he is about.

Harris is a plank dipped in creosote who makes Graham Morrison look like Darcy Graham after a questionable curry on a cruise ship.

Discuss.

It's little gems like that GC that makes up for your regular absence when you're away to your private islands and yachting trips.

Ugly game to win but at least we finally won ugly.

After losing the first two games (one undeservedly, the other in Noah's flood), we have won three games in the Six Nations including a Tier 1 nation away. What is the general feeling on how we did and where does this leave us poised for the next tournament?

This massively takes the pressure off Toonie and the team

Remember plenty were calling for his head after the WC

I can see a bit of experimentation in these games and a few more players getting their chances and hopefully we will be in a good place for the next 6N

What is the general feeling on how we did and where does this leave us poised for the next tournament?

Nearly back to 2017. should be top half of the next 6N and challenging the top

In terms of our capacity for a tilt higher up this year coming. I think it's worth noting we're away in Paris and London. I think we should be aiming for one away win and three home wins. Centre should be a position of strength but seems to be becoming one of weakness. Elsewhere I think we are well stocked.

What a score to wake up to. Sounds a stressful watch!

Watching the France game now and will go through the Scotland game after.

All in all I am fairly happy with the 6N . 3 wins - the minimum acceptable. Not outplayed in any game, some good control shown at the end today.

123456789. wrote:In terms of our capacity for a tilt higher up this year coming. I think it's worth noting we're away in Paris and London. I think we should be aiming for one away win and three home wins. Centre should be a position of strength but seems to be becoming one of weakness. Elsewhere I think we are well stocked.

Where we are currently we’re not going to beat France, who seem to have finally remembered how to play rugby , nor England. Ireland will still be a tough game. Wales and Italy at home should be wins

3 wins next year I’ll predict.

Do we think we could see replacements for the injured lads or have we got enough cover :-)?

I do recall seeing on here that GT hinted that SHC could still earn a place, hence why I've asked the question.

Much as SHC deserves some international game time, will he actually displace Price, Horne and Steele in the squad?
Other potential squad additions will depend on showings by Edinburgh and Glasgow over the next two days, and also whether the likes of Hutchison or Taylor have regained fitness.
For our next match against Italy, we should have way too much for them up front. But, on the basis that Russell and Hastings are likely to be out, I would hope that we have the like of Johnson, Jones, Hutch or Taylor in the centre to support Weir at 10.
Much as I like Wee Dunc, the thought of Lang and Harris outside him fills me with little inspiration.

Much as SHC deserves some international game time, will he actually displace Price, Horne and Steele in the squad?
Other potential squad additions will depend on showings by Edinburgh and Glasgow over the next two days, and also whether the likes of Hutchison or Taylor have regained fitness.
For our next match against Italy, we should have way too much for them up front. But, on the basis that Russell and Hastings are likely to be out, I would hope that we have the like of Johnson, Jones, Hutch or Taylor in the centre to support Weir at 10.
Much as I like Wee Dunc, the thought of Lang and Harris outside him fills me with little inspiration.

The 6 nations is a funny old tournament eh. 3 wins is a great return though and the future is looking a lot more rosy than it did a year ago!

The difference in our pack and defence is huge. We only conceded 59 points all tournament which is incredible - closest to us was England on 79. Worth saying our attacking stats are pretty poor with us 2nd bottom in terms of points scored.

The next step for the team is to regain our attacking mojo to compliment the doggedness and frugal defence.

8 and 12 continues to be a problem position - Thomson and Lang were pretty much anonymous. 12 we have options with Johnson and Hutchinson, 8 I just don't know.

We now have one of the best scrums and reserve scrums in the 6N and are up there with the English backrow in terms of breakdown ability. Lineout had improved but still needs work, and our rolling maul has been a pleasant surprise! We're still lacking a big ball carrier though.

Backs wise we've been pretty flat - Jamie Lyle's commentary said 26 of our last 50 tries has come from hookers! It's fair to say Lang-Harris is not the answer, with Johnson-Harris looking a bit more threatening.

Hopefully we can consolidate these improvements in the next run of 3 games - 3 from 3 very much the target.

I think you’re right to say the 8 and 12 shirts remain the issue.
The 12 shirt is more straightforward, Hutchinson and Johnson are good options when fit. I’d prefer Hutchinson as I think he’s the better ball player but Johnson is the man in possession. I don’t think Harris is good enough. He’s fine (very good in fact) defensively. I don’t think that’s enough. He’s anonymous in attack. Lang and Harris are the vegan sausage roll of centre partnerships. Ideally we’d have an out and out crash ball option at 12 that we could utilise on certain occasions. Hopefully McDowall will develop in that direction.

On the 8 shirt I think Thomson has potential if he’s given a run. Bradbury has the ability, but he’s had the ability for years and not really done it. Du Preez was pretty good today. Haining can do a job. The sad thing is the last player to put in a decent run at 8 was Johnnie Beattie in from the Autumn Internationals in 2009 through the Argentina tour in 2010. It seems almost every team in international rugby has a Pacific Islander or Saffer at 8. Still England seem to be churning a new breed of kamikaze 8s like Earl and Simmonds who I reckon are better than Vunipola and there’s no reason we can’t produce one too.

Well lads a wins a win, definitely can't complain at that although worrying with injuries now to both playmakers. Looks like it's the hairy meatball's time to shine. This means we need a creative playmaker outside him though, so preferably Johnson will be back or Toonie will call up one or both of Scott and Hutchinson. Do we think Bennett could do a job at IC? I remember when he first started out he played there a bit. Seems a waste to use him in a demoralised Edinburgh side, especially someone with that much talent and experience.

Harris is there to stay, have to accept that, dull as it is. Lang however is moveable. Tbf I wouldn't mind Lang being a solid dependable choice with someone to break up the field later in the game. I can't remember if Taylor has been capped yet? May be worth a punt. Alternatively if Toonie can tempt redpath up then that may possibly resolve some issues, although I think he's long since made his bed.

As I said before I really liked what I saw of Fagerson Jr during the Georgia game. If he comes back he'd be my first choice to persist with. Thomson is ok but you do feel one hard tackle at the slightest wrong angle and he's off the park with concussion. Fagerson has more longevity and isnt made of glass. I also expect we'll see Skinner in the back row at some point, maybe at 8.

Townsend said they both 10s will be out for 'weeks'. We'll be fine with Weir at 10 against Italy but we could really do with one of them being back for France.

Agreed that SJ needs to come in at 12. George Taylor is randomly picked on the wing for Edinburgh!

Haining starting at 8 for Edinburgh so has a chance to play his way into contention.

Also, I wonder if Finn injured himself when he tried to volley the ball. It looked quite awkward.

He stayed on a bit longer after but that may have been out of embarrassment!

RDW wrote:Also, I wonder if Finn injured himself when he tried to volley the ball. It looked quite awkward.

He stayed on a bit longer after but that may have been out of embarrassment!

That would be a very Finn Russell way to get an injury!

It's also the risk that comes from overplaying - him and the Exeter boys have played a lot of rugby lately and it's easy to pick up a muscle injury.

The weekend's off week has definitely come at the right time.