The Glasgow and Edinburgh General Chat. Discussions are limited to 6 people before 10pm to prevent the spread of Jimboish.

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Another chat thread dedicated to speculation, rumination, and general perambulation through the trials and tribulations of the club from the west with no forwards and the club from the east without a backs coach.

One day we'll have more rugby to talk about!

Fijian international prop Lee-Roy Atalifo makes his Edinburgh Rugby debut as the capital club host Cardiff Blues at BT Murrayfield in Round 5 of the Guinness PRO14 this Monday (9 November, kick-off 7.45pm) – live on Premier Sports.

The inclusion of the 13-times capped Fijian tighthead is one of seven changes made by Head Coach Richard Cockerill following last weekend’s road win against Conference B rivals Scarlets.

With 23 first team players unavailable due to injury or international selection, Head Coach Richard Cockerill once again gives youth an opportunity, with seven academy or first-year pro players named in the matchday 23.

Winger Eroni Sau returns to the starting XV after missing last weekend’s match due to the birth of his child, while Nathan Chamberlain starts at stand-off with Jaco van der Walt unavailable for selection having this week returned to South Africa to get married.

David Cherry gets the nod at hooker following last week’s impressive performance from the bench at Parc y Scarlets that saw him named in the Guinness PRO14 Team of the Week.

Further changes to the pack see lock Andries Ferreira makes his first start for the club and paired with Jamie Hodgson in the second-row – as Lewis Carmichael and Andrew Davidson miss out through injury – while Luke Crosbie is once again fit and named at openside flanker.

Ahead of the fixture, Head Coach Richard Cockerill, said: “We were happy with a gritty and hard-earned win against Scarlets and the boys have backed it up with a tough week of training.

“Winning gives you confidence. Winning’s a habit, and we’re happy that we’ve broken the losing streak we were in and we can continue to develop as a squad as we prepare to face a really strong Cardiff outfit.

“They’re a good side, not missing a huge amount of players to Wales, so it will be a real test for us on Monday night.

“We obviously have a large number of players unavailable due to injury or on international duty, but that gives an opportunity to younger guys that will be keen to make an impact from the get-go.”

The return of Sau on the wing is the only alteration to an otherwise unchanged back-three as Jamie Farndale and Jack Blain keep their place in the starting line-up.

Centres Chris Dean and Mark Bennett once again link-up in midfield, while stand-off Chamberlain – who makes just his fourth appearance for the capital club – and skipper Henry Pyrgos are named at half-back.

A reshuffled front-row sees hooker Cherry pack down alongside props Pierre Schoeman and Atalifo, with locks Ferreira – a debutant last weekend – and Hodgson completing the tight-five.

Crosbie starts at openside flanker after missing out on the last three rounds of action through injury, with Ally Miller - who switches to No. 8 – and Magnus Bradbury forming the remainder of the pack.

Elsewhere, young prop pairing Sam Grahamslaw and Dan Gamble are named among the replacements and will make their Edinburgh Rugby debuts if called upon.



Edinburgh Rugby team to face Cardiff Blues at BT Murrayfield in the Guinness PRO14
Monday 9 November (kick-off 7.45pm) - live on Premier Sports



15. Jack Blain (3)



14. Eroni Sau (12)

13. Mark Bennett (41)

12. Chris Dean (95)

11. Jamie Farndale (10)



10. Nathan Chamberlain (3)

9. Henry Pyrgos (37) CAPTAIN



1. Pierre Schoeman (48)

2. David Cherry (25)

3. Lee-Roy Atalifo*

4. Andries Ferreira (1)

5. Jamie Hodgson (9)

6. Magnus Bradbury (81)

7. Luke Crosbie (42)

8. Ally Miller (16)



Replacements: 16. Mike Willemse (25) 17. Sam Grahamslaw* 18. Dan Gamble* 19. Marshall Sykes (1) 20. Connor Boyle (1) 21. Nic Groom (15) 22. Charlie Shiel (22) 23. James Johnstone (53)

Unavailable due to injury: Andrew Davidson, Matt Gordon, Lewis Carmichael, Viliame Mata, Grant Gilchrist, Damien Hoyland, Murray McCallum, George Taylor, Fraser McKenzie

Unavailable due to international selection: Simon Berghan, Jamie Bhatti, Nick Haining, Stuart McInally, WP Nel, Jamie Ritchie, Rory Sutherland, Ben Toolis, Hamish Watson, Darcy Graham, Blair Kinghorn, Duhan van der Merwe, Mesulame Kunavula

Edinburgh very much scraping the barrell in several positions.

Toonie appears to have gobbled up all of the Scotland squad - there's no way they're all going to play. Suppose with the game being in Italy preparation time will be limited this week after the Pro 14 games.

Well done Jimbo on the grandchild!

Well, Ulster are favourites against Glasgow. At least we have taken a shot with a young centre pairing.

Edinburgh have gone fully for the youth revolution. Four pack replacements with a combined two professional appearances. Hopefully they can build trust with Cockers in time for the Six Nations. Got to be hoping that Bhatti and McCallum are available again soon.

RDW wrote:Yep will make Crosbie our frontline 7 with the youngsters coming through in support.

What about Ritchie?

tigertattie wrote:

RDW wrote:Yep will make Crosbie our frontline 7 with the youngsters coming through in support.

What about Ritchie?

6!

I'd have it the other way around, although I guess it's a bit of a moot point as both will be doing the same thing just on opposite sides of the scrum!

Great move for Mish if true, very happy for him as he seemed to come up the hard way so definitely deserves a big break.

Sadly Ferguson isn't that young, he's 27, although that would mean he's okay for 2023 if he blows us away. He certainly looked very handy in the 7s arena. He's also a big lad and I'd wager could do a job at IC, I expect he also has better distribution than Lang. That being said, it could just be taking a while for Lang to settle into things, much like Taylor did. One thing is for sure, our maul has never been better with that centre pairing...

No complaints about Watson moving on to Racing or anywhere that is willing to give him a big paycheque. Ritchie, Crosbie, Miller, Boyle and Darge is plentiful cover at openside from an Edinburgh perspective. Removing his salary probably means keeping Ritchie.

I thought Fergusson was younger...feeling old. Starting to think this is going to Paddy Kelly and Robbie Nairn's last seasons.

Hazel Sapling wrote:No complaints about Watson moving on to Racing or anywhere that is willing to give him a big paycheque. Ritchie, Crosbie, Miller, Boyle and Darge is plentiful cover at openside from an Edinburgh perspective. Removing his salary probably means keeping Ritchie.

I thought Fergusson was younger...feeling old. Starting to think this is going to Paddy Kelly and Robbie Nairn's last seasons.

It very well could be if they don't play to their potential! Paddy Kelly especially you feel has to make a move... Provided he's not injured...

Hard to justify keeping players on who fail to make the squad consistently. Bit like the Ashe situation.

Can’t see f’ckall.

I wish I could see fecc all from the Kingspan.
FurraLinee is having a mare. TBRITW is having a shocker. And one of our four fit backdrops looks like he's injured a knee.

Great result for Edinburgh. Fecc knows what actually happened out there though, between Premier Sports streaming and the weather it was all a bit of a mystery!

jimbopip wrote:I wish I could see fecc all from the Kingspan.
FurraLinee is having a mare. TBRITW is having a shocker. And one of our four fit backdrops looks like he's injured a knee.

Aye poor kicking and flappy arms in the tackle, arguably responsible for leaking 2 tries. I think Glasgow are better off taking a punt on a youngn!

Nice win for Edinburgh. Ally Miller looks a player and Pyrgos played the conditions very well (unlike the Blues half backs and full back!). Good physical shift from the pack saw us home, and Chamberlain was tidy as well.

Still no sign of the backs actually having practised any moves or attempts at deception to find a line break, but we didn't need it tonight.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Nice win for Edinburgh. Ally Miller looks a player and Pyrgos played the conditions very well (unlike the Blues half backs and full back!). Good physical shift from the pack saw us home, and Chamberlain was tidy as well.

Still no sign of the backs actually having practised any moves or attempts at deception to find a line break, but we didn't need it tonight.

I was thinking miller looked like a force. Few more games at 8, would be great to see how he gets on against the bigger sides as maybe a long term solution for Scotland?

He's on the smaller side for an international 8 but he uses his footwork and pace to really good effect. He's not dissimilar to Matt Fagerson. I'd like to see plenty more of him this season.

Great win for Edinburgh given the team we were able to put out. Doesn't sound the greatest of spectacles but huge to get the win.

How was Chamberlain?

Miller is a funny one - he's near bottom of the selection list at Edinburgh but whenever he plays (usually during international windows) he puts in great performances. Because he's only generally only picked in these periods he's not really been tested against top opposition, in particular he's not the biggest so it's whether he can mix it with the big boys.

RDW wrote:Great win for Edinburgh given the team we were able to put out. Doesn't sound the greatest of spectacles but huge to get the win.

How was Chamberlain?

Miller is a funny one - he's near bottom of the selection list at Edinburgh but whenever he plays (usually during international windows) he puts in great performances. Because he's only generally only picked in these periods he's not really been tested against top opposition, in particular he's not the biggest so it's whether he can mix it with the big boys.

Chamberlain looked very assured but had excellent support from pyrgos, one of his best games tbf. So mainly was dictated from 9 but for someone so young Chamberlain looks the part. He's certainly not any worse than VdW.

NeilyBroon wrote:

RDW wrote:Great win for Edinburgh given the team we were able to put out. Doesn't sound the greatest of spectacles but huge to get the win.

How was Chamberlain?

Miller is a funny one - he's near bottom of the selection list at Edinburgh but whenever he plays (usually during international windows) he puts in great performances. Because he's only generally only picked in these periods he's not really been tested against top opposition, in particular he's not the biggest so it's whether he can mix it with the big boys.

Chamberlain looked very assured but had excellent support from pyrgos, one of his best games tbf. So mainly was dictated from 9 but for someone so young Chamberlain looks the part. He's certainly not any worse than VdW.

You not a fan? I think he's been an excellent signing for Edinburgh over the years. He's not been in great form since the restart but he had an excellent season last year, and was keeping star signing Hickey out of the team for long periods as well. He's not going to be Scotland's saviour at 10 but I reckon he'll serve as a good emergency back up option, similar to Weir really.

RDW wrote:

NeilyBroon wrote:

RDW wrote:Great win for Edinburgh given the team we were able to put out. Doesn't sound the greatest of spectacles but huge to get the win.

How was Chamberlain?

Miller is a funny one - he's near bottom of the selection list at Edinburgh but whenever he plays (usually during international windows) he puts in great performances. Because he's only generally only picked in these periods he's not really been tested against top opposition, in particular he's not the biggest so it's whether he can mix it with the big boys.

Chamberlain looked very assured but had excellent support from pyrgos, one of his best games tbf. So mainly was dictated from 9 but for someone so young Chamberlain looks the part. He's certainly not any worse than VdW.

You not a fan? I think he's been an excellent signing for Edinburgh over the years. He's not been in great form since the restart but he had an excellent season last year, and was keeping star signing Hickey out of the team for long periods as well. He's not going to be Scotland's saviour at 10 but I reckon he'll serve as a good back up option, similar to Weir really.

I meant on this season sorry should have made that clear! I think VdW is in the Parks mould of FH, can play some great stuff and is generally a good manager of the game but you definitely notice if he's having an off day! I certainly don't rate him any better than Weir and would definitely put him behind Hastings (although his form hasn't been the best either, not that it matters now!)

Yeah Finn is a clear front runner but I'm liking the player Hastings is turning into. I think he'll be a top international 10 by the time he's fully matured into the role..

Weir and VDW to cover when they're not available (which is for the next few games certainly).

Chamberlain was solid. Big boot on him and he's a physical bloke in defence. Pyrgos took care of the business tonight and controlled things, so a good platform for him. I'd like to see more in attack, but I know that the backs coaches at Edinburgh say down with that sort of thing.

Bit of a humping for Glasgow, have not watched it yet and not sure if i want to.

Maybe the Drags have done us a favour by having next week off now, we need some of our cavalry back asap

Looking at the offside line report for the Edinburgh game it says Dan Gamble got about half an hour. How did he get on? The lad looks like a cracking talent at tighthead.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Chamberlain was solid. Big boot on him and he's a physical bloke in defence. Pyrgos took care of the business tonight and controlled things, so a good platform for him. I'd like to see more in attack, but I know that the backs coaches at Edinburgh say down with that sort of thing.

Careful now!

(had to be done)

I flitted between both games last night, was really interesting to see the difference in composition of the teams, given both of them are going through a similar loss of players/injuries etc.

The Edinburgh team at the end must have had an average age of about 22 - Grahamslaw, Gamble, Sykes, Hodgson, Boyd, Chamberlin, Blain etc.  Conversely, the youngest player Glasgow had out there was Stafford McDowall and Bain came on at the end, the rest were a mixture of stop-gap signings and fringe squad players, Matthews, Fergusson, Bryce, Bean and the rest.

Two interesting points from that I suppose, it doesn't appear that the Glasgow academy can be working as it's not feeding through decent enough talent in sufficient numbers.  When they do, those players all seem to leave - Cameron Henderson and Marshall Sykes being the two obvious examples.  The second point,  if we are going to put our teams that Wilson/fans expect us to lose anyway, why not play some of the younger players that we do have at our disposal - surely playing Ollie Smith last night would have been better than Fergusson at 13 or Bryce at 15?

EST wrote:I flitted between both games last night, was really interesting to see the difference in composition of the teams, given both of them are going through a similar loss of players/injuries etc.

The Edinburgh team at the end must have had an average age of about 22 - Grahamslaw, Gamble, Sykes, Hodgson, Boyd, Chamberlin, Blain etc.  Conversely, the youngest player Glasgow had out there was Stafford McDowall and Bain came on at the end, the rest were a mixture of stop-gap signings and fringe squad players, Matthews, Fergusson, Bryce, Bean and the rest.

Two interesting points from that I suppose, it doesn't appear that the Glasgow academy can be working as it's not feeding through decent enough talent in sufficient numbers.  When they do, those players all seemed to have left - Cameron Henderson and Marshall Sykes being the two obvious examples.  The second point, if we are going to put our teams that Wilson/fans expect us to lose anyway, why not play some of the younger players that we do have at our disposal - surely playing Ollie Smith last night would have been better than Fergusson at 13 or Bryce at 15?

There's something gone badly wrong with the youth being brought through at Glasgow. Even with promising academy prospects they seem to go for very conservative (and generally pretty poor) choices in an attempt to win or keep the game closer for a LBP. Add to that Rennie's years of excluding large chunks of the young talent then we have created a systemic problem that needs resolving urgently.

NeilyBroon wrote:

EST wrote:I flitted between both games last night, was really interesting to see the difference in composition of the teams, given both of them are going through a similar loss of players/injuries etc.

The Edinburgh team at the end must have had an average age of about 22 - Grahamslaw, Gamble, Sykes, Hodgson, Boyd, Chamberlin, Blain etc.  Conversely, the youngest player Glasgow had out there was Stafford McDowall and Bain came on at the end, the rest were a mixture of stop-gap signings and fringe squad players, Matthews, Fergusson, Bryce, Bean and the rest.

Two interesting points from that I suppose, it doesn't appear that the Glasgow academy can be working as it's not feeding through decent enough talent in sufficient numbers.  When they do, those players all seemed to have left - Cameron Henderson and Marshall Sykes being the two obvious examples.  The second point,  if we are going to put our teams that Wilson/fans expect us to lose anyway, why not play some of the younger players that we do have at our disposal - surely playing Ollie Smith last night would have been better than Fergusson at 13 or Bryce at 15?

There's something gone badly wrong with the youth being brought through at Glasgow. Even with promising academy prospects they seem to go for very conservative (and generally pretty poor) choices in an attempt to win or keep the game closer for a LBP. Add to that Rennie's years of excluding large chunks of the young talent then we have created a systemic problem that needs resolving urgently.

I'd agree Neily, the Edinburgh team has a group of youngsters either in the academy or as a first year pro's who look to be getting good game time over the next period, it can only be a good thing long term. West across the M8, there seems to be a whole generation of players who haven't pushed on (Nicol, Thornton, Kelly, Nairn) and very few prospects of sufficient quality coming through to support.

RDW wrote:Yeah Finn is a clear front runner but I'm liking the player Hastings is turning into. I think he'll be a top international 10 by the time he's fully matured into the role..

Weir and VDW to cover when they're not available (which is for the next few games certainly).

I'd have Weir over Hastings any day of the week and twice on Saturdays!

So looking at the training photos looks like Duncan taylor is training with the squad, although he's in a bib so doubt he'll be in the starting lineup but could be a surprise inclusion on the bench?

On the Glasgow front, the youth have not been brought on well for several years. M Smith is well documented, Wynne and Capps were discarded, Nairn and Kelly never got any playing time, Davidson was signed and then allowed to go to Edinburgh as was Sykes and Henderson went back to Leicester (where he has been playing well). Flockhart started getting playing time and it may be too late as he puts his career on hold.

The only young players who have pushed on in the Glasgow system are Dobie, Gordon, Flockhart (if he comes back), McDonald and Stewart. The jury is out on Nicol. Thompson has not had any opportunities and appears to be the next one who may be allowed to go without getting a chance. We will see what happens with Bain, Smith and McClennan

The pack yesterday could have been almost all Scots and instead we are relying on TJ Ioane and Lokutui (not a shot, both are decent squad players who are really giving their all, but really not pushing us forward as a side)
Capps - Stewart - Pieretto (Allan - Matthews - Rae)
Davidson - McDonald (Henderson)
Wynne - Wilson - Gordon (M Smith)

I think Glasgow have become somewhat of a victim of their own success and have just been seeking experience over promise to try to bring home more silverware (ironically quite often let down by the senior, not younger players). They've forgotten along the way that what got them there was an exceptional generation of Scottish players coming through the system. We have exceptional U20s now who just aren't being used. Ollie smith especially, he looked very much like blain does for Edinburgh when he played U20s, in my opinion like a better Kinghorn, yet that wasn't recognised with a pro contract. DW seems to be giving these players lip service but unless he puts his money where his mouth is, it's all moot.

I think we have got to give DW some time here, he has inherited this squad and not really had much opportunity to put his own stamp on it. It looks as well as everything else going on at the moment, that there is some dead wood in it and we may well see more movement next season.

As regards the youngsters, lets see where he goes with that over the next while, if the season has slipped away from us before it has even started, then he may be more inclined to try them out as we go along. At the moment, a week off and a chance to reset and hopefully get a few injured players back is no bad thing.

I watched the Edinburgh game this afternoon when i got up after my night shift. I have to say, i have been very impressed with Blain, that is three good games in a row he has had. Skyes, Gamble, Boyle and Grahamslaw all got some game time as well. Things are looking good out east on the player development front.

BigGee wrote:I think we have got to give DW some time here, he has inherited this squad and not really had much opportunity to put his own stamp on it. It looks as well as everything else going on at the moment, that there is some dead wood in it and we may well see more movement next season.

As regards the youngsters, lets see where he goes with that over the next while, if the season has slipped away from us before it has even started, then he may be more inclined to try them out as we go along. At the moment, a week off and a chance to reset and hopefully get a few injured players back is no bad thing.

I watched the Edinburgh game this afternoon when i got up after my night shift. I have to say, i have been very impressed with Blain, that is three good games in a row he has had. Skyes, Gamble, Boyle and Grahamslaw all got some game time as well. Things are looking good out east on the player development front.

The criticism around Wilson wasn't so much Glasgow's results etc, you're right they're in transition right now. It's more that he's gone on about the quality of the youth at Glasgow and how they need to use them yet we're still to see them make an appearance! It's not like he's picking better players right now anyway, as Mondays hammering shows! If the full complement was available it'd perhaps be more understandable but he seems to be unnecessarily conservative in his team selection. If cockers is playing more of the younger players than you it should raise some serious questions!

To be fair, Cockers literally has no one else to pick! Remember throughout his tenure he's generally stuck with what he knows and not rotated the squad unless he has to due to internationals.

RDW wrote:To be fair, Cockers literally has no one else to pick! Remember throughout his tenure he's generally stuck with what he knows and not rotated the squad unless he has to due to internationals.

Exactly why I said it should raise serious questions

I think DW is in a really difficult spot, he has been dealt a bad hand to kick off his Glasgow tenure. He isn't to blame for the lack of quality in the squad, the issues with the Glasgow Academy and the greater number of players taken into an extended international bubble. That shouldn't stop him from giving good young players he does have opportunities during this time - Nicol, Smith, Kelly etc.

The Glasgow development pathway really does have some issues though, and some of the decisions made recently just don't make sense - how did Sykes end up at Edinburgh, was enough done to persuade Cameron Henderson to stay, how has Glasgow lad Andrew Davidson found his way along the M8, who from Glasgow is questioning/demanding that we get Rory Darge when Edinburgh already have Connor Boyle?

We could/should be putting out a team who are going to be the backbone of the side for the next generation this year and properly build for the future.

Edinburgh getting a bit of a horsing from Leinster so far. We're not the first and we won't be the last!

Edinburgh been really poor and not putting Leinster under any pressure at all. Every time they get in a position, they turn the ball over.

Always going to be z tough ask in Dublin, but hard to imsgine Cockers will be pleased with that performance

To be fair that's a hell of a pack Leinster have put out given its the international window. Could be an international pack!

Absolutely but you can't get away from how much Edinburgh have chucked it away as well.

It's been an awful performance and am saying that as a Scotland not a Glasgow fan

Fact is both Scottish sides are really struggling without their international players at the moment.

It is a shame, just at a point when we have had some good young plsyets and a bit more depth.

It is not thete yet unfortunately

Things are definitely be exasberated by the number of games we're needing to play during the enlarged international window. I'd be amazed if the key Scotland players played more than 5 Pro 14 games this season, and 2 of those will be the 1872!

Edinburgh should be defending better than this. Leinster are playing well but Edinburgh should be doing better. This could be a record defeat

Bet Cockers will bring up the salary cap debate again after this one

Ireland's pro sides have far more mature talent development systems than Scotland's and it definitely shows. However it's not just our sides struggling. Unfortunately I don't think the wendyball win last week will help youth interest in rugby in Scotland despite rugby having far better prospects long term.

We need to be rotating our players earlier. If you look at some of the young players such as shiel they're already into their twenties easily by the time they play pro. There should be a policy to utilise an academy player in most fixtures. The English clubs are far more likely just to bring players through from their respective academies younger. Again this just shows how immature our system is. The pro6 is not the answer, it's streets behind what other nations have, we're also too small as a nation to benefit from a purely domestic league.

bsando wrote:Bet Cockers will bring up the salary cap debate again after this one

What would that solve for matches like this though?

A bunch of academy players, development contract players, and low-cost second rankers for the most part. Fardy is the marquee player.

A consolation try (which they almost messed up!) for Edinburgh

Pot Hale wrote:

bsando wrote:Bet Cockers will bring up the salary cap debate again after this one

What would that solve for matches like this though?

A bunch of academy players, development contract players, and low-cost second rankers for the most part.  Fardy is the marquee player.

Agreed, this is nothing to do with money, just about talent and development pathways

NeilyBroon wrote:Ireland's pro sides have far more mature talent development systems than Scotland's and it definitely shows. However it's not just our sides struggling. Unfortunately I don't think the wendyball win last week will help youth interest in rugby in Scotland despite rugby having far better prospects long term.

We need to be rotating our players earlier. If you look at some of the young players such as shiel they're already into their twenties easily by the time they play pro. There should be a policy to utilise an academy player in most fixtures. The English clubs are far more likely just to bring players through from their respective academies younger. Again this just shows how immature our system is. The pro6 is not the answer, it's streets behind what other nations have, we're also too small as a nation to benefit from a purely domestic league.

SRU should sign up to the Celtic Cup and hopefully SA sides as well - need a strong talent development comp.

You can make all the excuses in the world, but this is just embarrassing, Edinburgh are just not at the races