England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21

First topic message reminder :

First winter tour for England confirmed today: three T20s and three ODIs in South Africa from the 27th November-9th December.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/54537709

A possible limited-overs tour of Pakistan, which would be England's first trip to that country since 2005, as well as visits to Sri Lanka and India may also go ahead in early 2021.

Fifty off just 26 for Malan...and celebrates with another six !

In remarkable form in t20

Number one in the world rankings for a reason (referring to Malan)!

England in cruise control now.

Duty281 wrote:Can't agree with bowling Sipamla when a wicket was sorely needed for the hosts.

Buttler now moves from 23 off 24 to 42 off 29.

Saffers need a batting collapse to win from here...as Buttler crunches another six.

Yeah the wheels appear to have come off for the fielding side. Buttler had been fairly restrained until then but he really found Sipamla to his liking and has gone up a couple of gears. Partnership fairly rattling along.

Fifty for Jos now off 34. Target down to 62 off seven overs after all that mayhem...

Buttler fairly telegraphed those two sixes off Sipmala as well, going deep and across. Should have been the clue not to bowl slot!

Not sure its form for Malan, hes made these scores his entire career

Not Shamsi's day . In total contrast to Sunday he's been bashed all over the place , unlike Rashid and Linde.

Malan must be closing in on some kind of record as England are making light work of this supposedly stiff target...

alfie wrote:Not Shamsi's day . In total contrast to Sunday he's been bashed all over the place , unlike Rashid and Linde.

Malan must be closing in on some kind of record as England are making light work of this supposedly stiff target...

First player to goose a century by scoring a run?

The biggest target brings the biggest victory.

Sensational innings from Malan, just short of being the third T20 international century by an English player (and his second). Brilliant from Buttler too.

Gooseberry wrote:Not sure its form for Malan, hes made these scores his entire career

It would be interesting to see a breakdown of his domestic T20 career over the years. In the earlier T20 years he batted more like Jonathan Trott in the shortest form - Trott was once the leading T20 run scorer for a few years in its infancy I believe - playing the percentages more. As seen tonight he can go through all the gears these days. An outstanding player who complements Buttler, Roy and Bairstow well.

The excellent cricinfo statsguru offers that sort of breakdown for international cricket but not domestic. 

As I type that Malan just misses out on his century hitting the winning single! 

Don't think I'd fancy having to bowl on this road...but even so England have made this chase look ridiculously easy.

And still have Bairstow , Morgan and Stokes sat twiddling their thumbs in the dressing room

Malan innings was insane ! What a pity he ran out of target to be left on 99...

Doesn't score quick enough apparently.

Two players turn up, England win with absolute ease. Series whitewash, best in the world etc

Sounds great ...but the bowling still has big questions. No second spinner, Sam Currans taken a tanking two out of three games. He has the Mo spot at the moment, and Mo certainly doesn't deserve it, but I'm not convinced England have answered all the questions they wanted to on the bowling roles.

Roy has been in horrible form since his comeback.

Better opposition could/would 've turned England over in at least one of these games.

This was absolutely their first choice team, no changes during the series underlines that. I dont think thats so set in stone after these games.

Game turned on that missed run out chance, and then the Sipamla over (not sure why Ngidi had only bowled one over through 12 in the innings), but either way England probably still would’ve got there. Not sure what score is big enough for them to not get really...

king_carlos wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Not sure its form for Malan, hes made these scores his entire career

It would be interesting to see a breakdown of his domestic T20 career over the years. In the earlier T20 years he batted more like Jonathan Trott in the shortest form - Trott was once the leading T20 run scorer for a few years in its infancy I believe - playing the percentages more. As seen tonight he can go through all the gears these days. An outstanding player who complements Buttler, Roy and Bairstow well.

The excellent cricinfo statsguru offers that sort of breakdown for international cricket but not domestic. 

As I type that Malan just misses out on his century hitting the winning single! 

http://www.cricmetric.com/index.py

Doesn’t go back to the start of Malan’s career, but that is a pretty excellent resource for Domestic figures and other things.

Think the top 6 is pretty set - of course injury could change that, and form will fluctuate (could do with Roy remembering how to bat sooner rather than later), but barring someone “doing a Malan” when they do get a chance, it’s tough to see that not being the top 6 that lines up in India next winter.
Do like the balance of it, even if Roy doesn’t regain form and falls out the side, I’d leave Bairstow at 4 - as noted his ability to hit spin will be big in the middle overs, and also I think his quick running between the wickets could be handy in the middle overs too. He also breaks up the rather left handed middle order we have nicely.

Bowling? Still a work in progress, but promising I think, and ultimately it doesn’t need to be perfect. Archer and Rashid are genuinely leading t20 bowlers in the world, Jordan is very solid. I’d imagine their best XI includes Wood > Turran, but they’re managing Wood’s tour here with Archer now departing, and by all accounts Wood will be in Sri Lanka whereas Archer won’t.
Second spinner still a need, and Sam Curran obviously growing on the job...but if they’re the worst problems we have, we don’t exactly have big ones.

Now onto said ODIs, Stokes, Archer and Surran depart us...so some interesting XI decisions to be made. I’d guess this is what they go with...

Roy
Bairstow
Root
Morgan
Buttler
Billings
Moeen
Woakes
Stone
Wood
Rashid

Which would leave Gregory, Livingstone and Topley on the sidelines. To be honest, not confident that will be the side - five bowlers with Moeen and then Stone/Wood seems a risk both confidence and fitness wise. We’ll see!

The T20 team looks in outstanding shape to me.

England have the best top six in the world, and at least five of those six would get into any team in the world. There's plenty of quality in the reserves, too, keeping the top six on their toes and ensuring England are well-covered in the event of injury.

Rashid and Archer are exquisite bowlers, they'd probably get into most world teams. Jordan probably has his spot secure, he bowled pretty well through the series, got de Kock out three times, and is now the leading wicket taker for England in T20s.

Final two spots are up for grabs. Sam Curran probably deserves to keep his for now. His bowling seems to be on the up, and he's decent with bat in hand if needed. For the final spot, Tom Curran has damaged his standing during the series. Could go to Moeen if England need a second spinner, or Wood if they want extra pace. My preference would be for the latter at the moment, but Topley is pushing hard for inclusion as well and I certainly wouldn't discount him. Gregory is probably a few lengths back at this stage.

And don't forget Stokes can also chip in with overs if required.

For me, England are comfortably the best T20 team in the world at the moment, underlined by recent results. They will go into the 2021 (and 2022) World Cup as favourites by my reckoning. While T20s are, compared to ODIs and Tests, subject to more randomness in results and there's a greater chance that the better team doesn't win, I think England will be disappointed if they don't win at least one of the two upcoming T20 World Cups.

I’m not as happy with England’s bowling line up, particularly in Asia, as Olly and Duty - and would have been nice to see them defending a total this series, but that will come.

Jofra obviously outstanding and probably the best T20 seamer in the world. Rashid very good and reliable in all conditions.

You can probably get 4 overs from Stokes and SCurran in most conditions, which just leaves the final two slots.

Tom has probably played his way out of selection, but a guy like Topley probably needs the new ball which clashes with SCurran and Archer. Jordan also I think hasn’t bowled that well this series... He had a poor IPL and then went at over 10s in two of the games this series, albeit he did get wickets. I wonder if they ever do look at Mills again? I do think express pace is the way to go in T20s and there is definitely an opening in the bowling department.

Im with you largely JD. England talked about using this tour to define roles in the team, whilst they have most of them nailed down theres still some big glaring questions. As it is the trump cards are strong enough that they can still overcome mediocre opposition on seamer friendly pitches like this, but can that carry them against teams with less weak links and good leg spinners at the world cup?

Its worth noting that in IPL the effective seamers were almost all express pace bowlers, not the mid paced variation types. Jordan, Stokes and Turran are all capable of bowling decent speed but only have one real quick bowler in Archer.  

Curran was picked as much for his lower order batting as his bowling (bits and pieces debate again..), and whilst his left arm is a huge plus for variety SA have shown they can get at him as an opener.  He took Mos place who bowled the mid overs, is there where Curran should bowl? Or do they just want another out and out pace option (Wood) and loose the finisher spot in the batting? Currans batting was only required twice and he contributed 8 runs, whilst he was fantastic in the warm ups and good in the IPL I dont think we can say he's nailed that role down yet for England.

Stokes has never been more than a bit part bowler in T20, although he bailed them out here a bit and his overall figures probably dont represent his potential he's not someone you want to be relying on. But England have turned to him in both the last two games with senior bowlers taking a hammering.

Death overs Jordan has cemented himself again, Turran might not have had a great series but Im not convinced hes played his way out of the side there. It was odd that they pulled him at the end of that game and didnt give him the 19th, Sam bowled two wides in that over so I wouldn't suggest he's stuck his hand up too well to take the role. Archers needed at the top to make inroads against the best bats, saving more than one over of him is a huge risk. So if not Tom who?

I dont want to talk England down too much, they are number one in the world for a reason and as close to anyone as knowing their best XI. Aus have their own problems balancing a side and relying on part time bowlers, SA are a mile off being able to field and XI made up of good players.

I just think its pretty evident that theres still flaws and looking at how much Australia are stepping their game up this year, and the depth of talent India (in home conditions) can draw on we shouldn't be taking the world cup as a given. They nearly messed the 50 over cup up from a stronger position! Sure I'd have them as favourites and they will absolutely kick themselves if they don't take it, but that was also the case in the last one at home....then the West Indies turned up.

Sometimes its just a choice of which role youre missing or are weak in to ensure your best players are on the pitch. It seems at this point they are content to not have a mid overs holding bowler/second spinner (Mo) , be light on out and out strike bowlers and carry Roys batting form in the knowledge that their 2-6 is a strong as anyone elses 1-11. The other trump cards they have are Archer and Rashid coupled with 4 other bowling options without resorting to absolute filth .Its almost the exact opposite of the way Australia are going with a few superstar batsmen and bowlers and a bunch of legit bits and pieces allrounders.

I guess my thing with this is that its the same questions that England had coming into this tour that still need answering. How do they square off Mo's loss of confidence and unselectability (its a word), how do they back up Archers threat against the proper batsmen without bowling Rashid early, and can Roy figure his game out again?

JDizzle wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Not sure its form for Malan, hes made these scores his entire career

It would be interesting to see a breakdown of his domestic T20 career over the years. In the earlier T20 years he batted more like Jonathan Trott in the shortest form - Trott was once the leading T20 run scorer for a few years in its infancy I believe - playing the percentages more. As seen tonight he can go through all the gears these days. An outstanding player who complements Buttler, Roy and Bairstow well.

The excellent cricinfo statsguru offers that sort of breakdown for international cricket but not domestic. 

As I type that Malan just misses out on his century hitting the winning single! 

http://www.cricmetric.com/index.py

Doesn’t go back to the start of Malan’s career, but that is a pretty excellent resource for Domestic figures and other things.

Thanks JD. When I get a minute I'll have a look and try to post a breakdown of Malan's domestic T20 career over various seasons and leagues.

I share JD and Goose's feelings of being unconvinced by the bowling whilst delighted by the side overall.

Archer and Rashid are fantastic bowlers. Jordan has nailed down a valuable role in this T20i set-up. Then Wood and Surran offer wicket taking options at different points in the innings. I still rate Turran despite a poor series and think he will hold a squad place.

The second spinner is really lacking if Moeen can't refind form. If they aren't going to back Parkinson (perhaps not wanting a second leg spinner?) then maybe the selectors will go back to someone line Danny Briggs? Look to use the second spinner to tie the opposition down in the RR given that several other bowlers are wicket takers.

Hopefully Stone can impress in the ODIs as I rate him and think another pace bowler to back up Wood and Archer would help the white ball set-up. There are a few good white ball quicks after Stone as well. Tymal Mills as has been mentioned for T20. George Garton is raw but another talented left-arm quick. In a short, late blooming career Richard Gleeson has also become a fine T20 bowler for Northants and Melbourne Renegades.

Jake Ball returning for the training games last month was interesting. He had a very good Blast with Notts last year. I can't help but think that if the selectors want that type of bowler for the World Cup then Woakes is the better option though? He hasn't played a T20i since 2015 but is integral to ODI side and a very good white ball bowler these days. I do wonder if Woakes will be parachuted into the World Cup squad to offer Morgan a solid option he is confident can deliver.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/55171613

Bairstow coming back to the test squad in January for the games in Sri Lanka. Somewhat surprising as I don't think his previous trips to the subcontinent, in tests, have been much to write home about.

Duty281 wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/55171613

Bairstow coming back to the test squad in January for the games in Sri Lanka. Somewhat surprising as I don't think his previous trips to the subcontinent, in tests, have been much to write home about.

Not sure that is accurate. He averages over 40 in India and made a century at number three in his one previous match in Sri Lanka. Had a pretty ordinary tour of UAE but still an overall " Asia "average of over 35. Not too bad for a keeper.

On the Sri Lanka tour in general : it will be interesting to see what sort of squad England actually put out. May well be some players don't really want to go ; some may be rested. With the whole programme still a bit up in the air with the Covid issue likely to be around for quite a while yet and the contrasting needs of red and white ball cricket there might be a few different faces ?

Duty281 wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/55171613

Bairstow coming back to the test squad in January for the games in Sri Lanka. Somewhat surprising as I don't think his previous trips to the subcontinent, in tests, have been much to write home about.

Reasons for his inclusion:

1) They are rumoured to be selecting a larger squad than normal due to the quarantine restrictions
2) Olly Pope still recovering from surgery
3) He has actually been playing cricket
4) Century in his last innings in Sri Lanka (and averaging 62.5)
5) 360 runs at an average of 40.11 in India

I very much doubt he will play however.

Sub plot is that hes missing out on the BBL, wonder how Morgan feels about that.

I was a bit shocked when I first saw it, but with Pope missing it makes a lot more sense. Does mean they have 3 keepers. Also if he was playing in the BBL then sitting in the England hotel rooms at least wont be robbing him of time off with the family and risk burnout.

There has always been the suggestion from the selectors that as with Moeen it was a bit of a wrench to feel they had to drop him in the first place, and admittance hes been somewhat messed around in the test team but taken any role without complaint (except 12th man!)

Again as with Moeen its pretty clear despite his temper he's well liked and trusted by the England leadership and they have some form of loyalty to him. Even with that its by no means a bad selection for the points raised.

Gooseberry wrote:Sub plot is that hes missing out on the BBL, wonder how Morgan feels about that.

I was a bit shocked when I first saw it, but with Pope missing it makes a lot more sense. Does mean they have 3 keepers. Also if he was playing in the BBL then sitting in the England hotel rooms at least wont be robbing him of time off with the family and risk burnout.

There has always been the suggestion from the selectors that as with Moeen it was a bit of a wrench to feel they had to drop him in the first place, and admittance hes been somewhat messed around in the test team but taken any role without complaint (except 12th man!)

Again as with Moeen its pretty clear despite his temper he's well liked and trusted by the England leadership and they have some form of loyalty to him. Even with that its by no means a bad selection for the points raised.

Given Bairstow has smashed the IPL out the park and established himself as one of the top white ball batsman in the world it's probably not much of a concern now. When he first took over and so few of the squad had seen exposure in those leagues Morgan was a big factor in pushing for more England players being in the IPL auctions. Now so many of the established XI are stars there I'd guess he might be more interested in seeing the challengers like Banton, Salt, Stone, Parkinson, Livingstone, Billings, etc getting that exposure to keep pushing things forward.

Bairstow getting recalled as a middle order bat makes a lot of sense. His test record is solid and he's a decent player of spin. If there were a player absolutely banging the door down for that spot then it might irk me but whilst Dan Lawrence (seemed the next inline over the summer) is a good player he hasn't made himself 'impossible to ignore' as Sibley did with weight of runs.

I'd actually be interested in where Malan was in the discussion given his outstanding form in the 2019 CC and the brief Bob Willis trophy this summer. A good player of spin as well.

Hopefully Foakes gets the chance at 7 with Buttler at 6. Both are good players of spin and Foakes is by far the best keeper we have standing up to the stumps.

Cant imagine they'd mess with Malan in terms of the test squad, too much to think about and its not like they need another mid order bat. Even the 50 over team is a big question given his age. Morgan was quite open that they are wanting to look at as many young players as possible for that whilst resting the seniors for T20s as so many will be at or past the end of their careers by 2023 (yeah OK Anderson)

First ODI today cancelled due to a positive Covid test in the SA Camp

Games now rearranged for Sunday/Monday/Wednesday, but I'm guessing any more infections in the SA camp (very possible) will lead to outright abandonment of the series.

No shock england are questioning how the outbreaks are occurring if its a bio secure environment and what that means for their own safety.

ODI series will go ahead after round of negative tests.

Good stuff, but still a bit of a concern.

Bantons pulled out of the BBL, seems like the pressure and disappointment from England might be messing with his head a bit. Going into a bubble pretty much on his own must be tough after spending so long getting tight with the England guys and knowing hes know deemed surplus.

Still lots of time for him to come good. He was rushed a bit into the England set up, and its not like his time there was a disaster more that they just feel they have better options in the spaces he can play effectively (cough Roy cough). Hope someone form the england squad takes the time to drop him a line and gee him up, and the time at home enjoying life freshens him up. Worst case is that he loses his natural confidence and exuberance

...off again. Hotel staff tested positive.

All this does show what a good and professional job the ECB did this summer. England flying home later in the week.

Wrong thread

Well that really is a shame - as Goose says shows how well the ECB did to get the games on this summer without a major hitch.

Also a shame for quite a few players like Wood, Stone, Livingstone etc. Spend all that time in the bubble and then don’t get your game time. Also a shame for someone like Roy who really could’ve done with some time in the middle to get some rhythm batting.

Indeed does show how well ECB (an oft derided - sometimes fairly - organisation) did to put on that summer of cricket.

Also underlines how tricky any tours are to manage while the virus is still running loose. Will be doubts about all series for the immediate future ...though hopefully there won't be any problems here in Australia with the damn thing effectively eradicated for the present.

And yes , a real pain for the players who've been hanging around waiting for a chance to get some action as a reward for putting up with bubble life for so long...I am sure Jack Leach will sympathise...

Emerging now that theres been positive tests in the tour party. This could cause problems for the following tours this winter, they will at a minimum need to do much better reviews of the biosecurity measures and adherence to them.

Second ODI (meant to be played tomorrow) now postponed as well.

Can't England just go home?

Yeah not sure why they haven't just gone, can only assume its to make sure the SA board cant claim against them for the loss of the last game. Its going to ask big questions regarding the rest of the tours and wouldn't be surprised if a few players opted out (those secure in their long term spots) . Theres a risk they could get stuck in country having to isolate before being allowed to fly back.

This is going to put SA cricket into even more of a mire. There was already the threat from the government of dissolving it, and the financial losses from the abandoned games just going to add to their woes. if it transpires they cut corners on the biosecurity that will be even worse. Sad times.

Duty281 wrote:Second ODI (meant to be played tomorrow) now postponed as well.

Can't England just go home?

If there are positive cases within the camp, they all have to quarantine before travelling I believe.

Latest Im reading says the positive tests in the england camp wont be confirmed till Tuesday, and they wont be allowed to fly home before that but the final game is now off.

Apparently England used nets that werent in the bio secure environment because " nets provided on the main pitch were not of a standard for conducive practice"

No mention of what happens if the tests do get confirmed positive, will the affected people be forced to stay?

England are supposed to set off for Sri Lanka on the 2nd. Bit of a pickle all round.

Gooseberry wrote:Latest Im reading says the positive tests in the england camp wont be confirmed till Tuesday, and they wont be allowed to fly home before that but the final game is now off.

Apparently England used nets that werent in the bio secure environment because " nets provided on the main pitch were not of a standard for conducive practice"

No mention of what happens if the tests do get confirmed positive, will the affected people be forced to stay?

England are supposed to set off for Sri Lanka on the 2nd. Bit of  a pickle all round.

But presumably all the people within the bubble have been mixing freely, so there is a likelihood of further transmission, assuming that these are genuine positive tests and not false positives (which there have been quite a few of amongst people tested regularly). I suspect the protocol will be that for those not currently positive, they will now have to return 2 or 3 negative tests 24 hours apart before being allowed to travel back to the UK. Infected members will obviously need to isolate for a period and then be subject to additional testing - if minor cases, this may only be about a week to 10 days

Still 4 weeks until the SL tour party travels, so should be sufficient time provided reasonable isolation can be achieved.

Does raise questions about the adherence to the bio-secure bubble - worked well in England in the summer and appears to have been successful for the IPL, but has clearly not worked in SA even though they are reportedly following the same protocols: cases in the SA playing party, then the hotel staff and now potentially in the England party.

Some good news - those were seemingly false positive tests for the two England touring party, and they'll all go home on Thursday.

Some tragic/sad news - Ben Stokes's dad, Ged, has died after a battle with brain cancer

Just seen that about Ged Stokes.

A little surprised to see that England have confirmed the dates of the SL tests before getting home from the SA fiasco. Meanwhile SL are considering cancelling their trip to SA.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/30487935/no-justification-england-abandon-south-africa-tour-csa-says

Suspect there will be some wrangling over bills for this!

Dates and venues confirmed for India now too

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/55257701

Travelling across 4 venues for the different elements of the tour. Hope India have their logistics, facilities and bio security well sorted. No idea how those stadiums are set up and if they have closed hotel and practise facilities attached to the venue. Some surprise in that regard bearing in mind the IPL is being hosted in UAE.

Gooseberry wrote:https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/30487935/no-justification-england-abandon-south-africa-tour-csa-says

Suspect there will be some wrangling over bills for this!

Looks a lot like Cricket South Africa trying their upmost to shift blame onto England so other teams still tour - from everything that’s been reported, England haven’t done anything wrong...and all Covid cases for the tour were from the SA camp...

Can’t imagine the ECB Will paying anything

Squad confirmed for the Sri Lanka tour;

Dom Sibley
Zak Crawley
Dan Lawrence
Joe Root
Jonny Bairstow
Jos Buttler
Ben Foakes

Moeen Ali
Sam Curran
Chris Woakes

Dom Bess
Jack Leach
Mark Wood
Olly Stone
James Anderson
Stuart Broad

In reserve
James Bracey
Mason Crane
Saqib Mahmood
Craig Overton
Matt Parkinson
Ollie Robinson
Amar Virdi

Stokes/Archer rested, and Rory Burns's wife is due to have a baby during the first test, so he is out too

Looks one short in terms of specialist batsmen, and slightly surprised to see both Jimmy and Broad in the squad. Argument for adding Keaton Jennings, who has had success as an opener in spin-friendly conditions?

Completely understand Stokes being left out, as much on compassionate grounds as anything else, and resting Joffra Archer.