Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
+29
BigGee
sensisball
TJ
mountain man
Poorfour
R!skysports
Welshmushroom
WELL-PAST-IT
Mr Fishpaste
RiscaGame
geoff999rugby
majesticimperialman
nlpnlp
Rugby Fan
doctor_grey
miltonkeynesengland
Gooseberry
MichaelT
dummy_half
Soul Requiem
mikey_dragon
Irish Londoner
BamBam
Geordie
No 7&1/2
TightHEAD
Duty281
lostinwales
king_carlos
33 posters
The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Rugby Union :: International
Page 5 of 5
Page 5 of 5 • 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
First topic message reminder :
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/08/steve-thompson-former-rugby-union-players-dementia-landmark-legal-case?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
That first link is an article in the Guardian about a potential legal case being brought against World Rugby, the RFU and WRU by 8 former players (all under the age of 45) with early onset dementia brought on by probable CTE. The players named publicly thus far are Steve Thompson, Michael Lipman and Alix Popham.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/08/steve-thompson-interview-world-cup-rugby-union-dementia-special-report
That second link is a Guardian interview with Thompson, who's only 42, about his experiences with early onset dementia. Somber reading.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/08/steve-thompson-former-rugby-union-players-dementia-landmark-legal-case?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
That first link is an article in the Guardian about a potential legal case being brought against World Rugby, the RFU and WRU by 8 former players (all under the age of 45) with early onset dementia brought on by probable CTE. The players named publicly thus far are Steve Thompson, Michael Lipman and Alix Popham.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/08/steve-thompson-interview-world-cup-rugby-union-dementia-special-report
That second link is a Guardian interview with Thompson, who's only 42, about his experiences with early onset dementia. Somber reading.
king_carlos- Posts : 12766
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Ankh-Morpork
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
Andrew Coombs: Former Wales forward reveals dementia diagnosis - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67607608
No 7&1/2- Posts : 31381
Join date : 2012-10-20
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
No 7&1/2 wrote:Andrew Coombs: Former Wales forward reveals dementia diagnosis - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67607608
It's striking how young some of these players are.
The article says Coombs was 31 when a knee injury forced him to retire, is 39 now, and started getting symptoms when he was only 35.
The youngest person in the lawsuit is a 22 year old amateur player, while the youngest professional is Theo Brophy-Clews, who is 26, and retired in 2021.
Last edited by Rugby Fan on Mon 04 Dec 2023, 8:41 am; edited 1 time in total
Rugby Fan- Moderator
- Posts : 8215
Join date : 2012-09-14
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
It brings home for me why the laws were harsh pretty much up until Curry got red carded. And now back to us accepting head hits. I do.wonder what happened in the corridors of power with that sudden shift.
No 7&1/2- Posts : 31381
Join date : 2012-10-20
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
Brian Moore:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/12/04/rugby-concussion-brain-injury-legal-case-toxic-debate/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/12/04/rugby-concussion-brain-injury-legal-case-toxic-debate/
Concussion, and the litigation involving former rugby players, has become a huge issue for rugby. The increasing toxicity of the debate over legal liability has reached a point of divisiveness that is doing immense harm.
Some journalists have irrevocably decided that there is liability. Some have taken to alleging that those who disagree are, effectively, commercially conflicted shills for the rugby authorities. On the other ‘side’, there are now allegations of players jumping on the gravy train of litigation, fuelled by no win, no fee lawyers.
Before raising the following points and questions, I feel obliged to set out my credentials in this area so that you can make your own judgement about the weight of what is said. I am a former international rugby player. I was a personal injury lawyer who litigated issues that involved thousands of claimants in both the Court of Appeal and the House of Lords. I also have a Master of Science degree, which involved having to understand research reports and statistical analysis.
I do not know whether there is liability. I accept that it will not be possible to be definitive about this until the medical evidence has been tested under cross-examination. I am not saying the claimants have no case. I am saying there are difficult hurdles for them to establish that case. If there is liability, the claimants deserve damages. Even if there is not, rugby should try to help those severely affected and have sympathy for their travails.
Anyone can have an opinion on this matter but, if they are honest, they should form it by addressing the facts and not just ignoring questions that are inconvenient.
The first point to make is that the NFL litigation over concussion is not directly referable to this case. The tackle techniques and rules about the legality of contacts to the head were, at the relevant times, completely different. Secondly, it is not correct to assert that knowledge imputed to the NFL will, under UK law, be deemed to apply to rugby at the same time.
The central issue to keep in mind is the difference between correlation and causation, and this applies both to the law and science around concussion. It is not possible in this short article to look at every medical and legal point. So, let us focus on two areas, but bear in mind there are communalities throughout the whole topic.
Chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE) was first diagnosed by Dr Bennet Omalu in 2005, following his postmortem on Mike Webster of Pittsburgh Steelers. According to Boston University, the world’s leading research faculty on CTE, there is no reliable way of diagnosing CTE before death. Claiming someone has ‘probable CTE’ is going to be problematic before a court.
If a player’s career ended before 2005, there will be the additional difficulty of proving rugby had the requisite knowledge to require it to act over CTE, when it had not been discovered. It is not good enough to claim CTE is the same as the previously diagnosed dementia pugilistica (being punch drunk). The knowledge dates for these conditions are different and it is legitimate to claim that boxing, where you can win by knocking out an opponent, is in a distinct category.
Although several media platforms have stated that concussion-related CTE causes the brain to attack itself, that is not correct and the truth is subtly but significantly different. They have found that in CTE cases there is a high correlation of abnormal patterns of tubulin associated unit (“tau”) proteins. They have not been able to specify what causes these proteins to go awry.
Early-onset dementia is also one of the diagnoses said to apply to some of the claimants, but concussion is only one of 12 identified possible causes. Saying that there is a correlation between early-onset dementia and concussed players is not enough for legal liability.
Establishing concussion as the cause requires evidence that none of the others apply or a definitive reason to conclude concussion is a principal cause.
A further problem is the large body of research that shows that retired athletes, including those from non-contact sports, have a variety of psychological and physiological problems, which mirror those claimed to have been caused by concussion. To establish liability, claimants must prove that such problems are caused by concussion and can be definitively distinguished. In any scientific analysis, they are going to have to pass the statistical significance test of there being a less than 0.05 chance that their results are not the result of coincidence.
The delayed cases are likely to go on for another two years, not least because the claimants have failed to properly comply with procedural stipulations and have had cost orders awarded against them. During this time, some commentators are likely to make further uncorroborated claims while others continue to claim that the game is going soft. None of this is helpful.
The law does not require rugby to be risk-free. It requires every reasonable step to be taken to reduce foreseeable risk and to inform people about that risk. This is why trials of new safety laws must be run and opponents of these steps need to accept this legal duty without whinging. The law does not say that medical procedures, taken at a certain time, are deemed negligent if they are subsequently changed. It only requires them to have been taken in line with a substantial body of similar expert opinion, even if other experts disagreed at the time.
I imagine that people will continue to push their agendas, but the polarisation, misunderstanding and misinformation that is creeping into this issue needs to stop. Get the cases heard, so that we know where liability lies and what we must deal with. In the meantime, would it be too much to ask people to address the above points, to refrain from abusing each other and to wait until the case is decided?
Rugby Fan- Moderator
- Posts : 8215
Join date : 2012-09-14
dummy_half, lostinwales, Poorfour, Unclear, demosthenes, BigGee, carpet baboon and RiscaGame like this post
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
That is a very impressive article from Brian Moore trying to make some sense of what is an incredibly complicated issues and highlighting some of the pitfalls the complainants will face.
This is certainly not going to be a question of sign here and then collect the cheque!
This is certainly not going to be a question of sign here and then collect the cheque!
BigGee- Admin
- Posts : 15481
Join date : 2013-11-05
Location : London
Poorfour likes this post
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
BigGee wrote:That is a very impressive article from Brian Moore trying to make some sense of what is an incredibly complicated issues and highlighting some of the pitfalls the complainants will face.
This is certainly not going to be a question of sign here and then collect the cheque!
I can think of very few, if any, other people better positioned to write such an article for a lay reader. My experience with the Law (as an Expert Witness) is that it is much more nuanced than simply finding the truth of a situation. Indeed, the law, truth and morality only intersect some of the time and usually only by accident.
There is one weakness in the article though, and that is that Moore doesn't explain that as a civil claim rather than a criminal case, the burden of proof is 'more likely than not' rather than 'beyond reasonable doubt', and as such the claimants have a lower bar to get over than proving criminal negligence.
dummy_half- Posts : 6497
Join date : 2011-03-11
Age : 52
Location : East Hertfordshire
Poorfour and carpet baboon like this post
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
Another thought occurs around all this is why are players with a history of concussion still playing?
Notable examples are George North and Sam Underhill. Now, we can assume they have been thoroughly assessed etc and given go ahead to continue playing but given the number of players who are now suffering from early onset dementia etc or sympoms thereof, it makes me wonder why are they risking future well being. North has just signed with Provence for next season and Underhill is back playing regularly, was in RWC squad and quite possibly be in 6N squad.
Notable examples are George North and Sam Underhill. Now, we can assume they have been thoroughly assessed etc and given go ahead to continue playing but given the number of players who are now suffering from early onset dementia etc or sympoms thereof, it makes me wonder why are they risking future well being. North has just signed with Provence for next season and Underhill is back playing regularly, was in RWC squad and quite possibly be in 6N squad.
mountain man- Posts : 3364
Join date : 2021-03-09
Lowlandbrit and Poorfour like this post
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
Moore’s articles are almost always brilliant, but this particular topic hits the intersections of his expertise so neatly that it’s hard to imagine anyone better placed to provide an objective analysis of what will undoubtedly be a complex and contentious case.
What it is likely to come down to is whether World Rugby and the unions were (or should have been) aware of the risks earlier, and whether the actions they took once they were aware were consistent with the best evidence available at the time of what would reduce the risk.
This, by the way, is a big part of why the RFU and other unions moved over the summer to reduce the tackle height - and took a huge amount of flak from players, coaches and supporters about it - this case has been brewing for a long time but I have been shocked at how many people show some awareness of it but still rail against the new tackle laws. But it took 7 years of accumulating evidence and trialling changes to get to this point - and even longer if you look at the introduction of things like the HIA protocol and Headcase training.
A lot may hinge on Barry O’Driscoll’s testimony - he resigned from World Rugby in 2012 in protest because he felt too little was being done about head injuries; it was one of the first public signs of the issue brewing. Understanding what evidence he and World Rugby had and why he felt they were doing too little about it is going to be very important here.
What it is likely to come down to is whether World Rugby and the unions were (or should have been) aware of the risks earlier, and whether the actions they took once they were aware were consistent with the best evidence available at the time of what would reduce the risk.
This, by the way, is a big part of why the RFU and other unions moved over the summer to reduce the tackle height - and took a huge amount of flak from players, coaches and supporters about it - this case has been brewing for a long time but I have been shocked at how many people show some awareness of it but still rail against the new tackle laws. But it took 7 years of accumulating evidence and trialling changes to get to this point - and even longer if you look at the introduction of things like the HIA protocol and Headcase training.
A lot may hinge on Barry O’Driscoll’s testimony - he resigned from World Rugby in 2012 in protest because he felt too little was being done about head injuries; it was one of the first public signs of the issue brewing. Understanding what evidence he and World Rugby had and why he felt they were doing too little about it is going to be very important here.
Poorfour- Posts : 6428
Join date : 2011-10-01
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
In the Guardian, Michael Aylwin writes about how, if the case goes to court, rugby will likely end up the loser either way. While a loss for the unions could be financially crippling, a win might require shredding the reputations of former players.
https://archive.is/U1ftG
https://archive.is/U1ftG
The game will not be the winner if legal action from players diagnosed with neurological damage ends up in court
Already there is a smack of Tier 1 versus Tier 2 in the contest we might call Rugby versus Its Players. Forget about talent, forget about justice; resources tend to hold sway. Which is not to say there is no hope for the 295 union players who applied for a group litigation order (GLO) on Friday, far from it.
Apart from anything else, they are clearly in need of compensation for their conditions, which somebody is going to have to pay. The defendants in the dock – World Rugby, the Rugby Football Union and the Welsh Rugby Union – would appear the most obvious parties responsible. Where it will become more contentious is whether those conditions are a result of negligence on the part of those defendants – or, as some of the more strident theories contend, a tobacco-style cover-up. Over to the courts.
If we ever get there. The preliminaries suggest that the GLO is likely to be granted, but not before the players’ legal team set their papers in order. Crushingly outnumbered by the rows of lawyers representing the three defendants, they suffered an early lecture from the ref. “It seems to me to be absolutely basic,” said Senior Master Cook of the medical records the players’ legal team were supposed to have supplied by now. Court adjourned for April. Out in time for lunch. Ouch.
Meanwhile, the defendants’ lawyers are already posturing as if they are confident of a win. This should not be seen as good news for those of us who want nothing but for the game to survive. The best-case scenario is a settlement before this case goes to court, which would not be before 2025. But if the defendants feel as if they can win – and as if they cannot afford to fork out for a meaningful settlement anyway – we could indeed be faced with the grisly prospect of Rugby v Its Players coming to a courtroom near you.
The sport’s image already feels as if it has been taking a hammering every bit as relentless as that meted out to its players in the normal course of a match, but wait until its governing bodies send in their lawyers to dismantle the evidence of its fallen heroes. In this case, the evidence is no more or less than their actual lives.
Imagine a ruthless KC interrogating Player X over their alcohol consumption, Player Y over drug use or Player Z over repeated concealment of their brain injuries as they did whatever they could to stay on the field in their playing days. Imagine confused, burly players in the dock reduced to tears by the very governing bodies who are supposed to look after them, whose repeated mantras about player welfare and No 1 priorities have long clanged hollow.
Such scenarios, however hypothetical at this stage, should make any right-thinking citizen seethe with anger just in the imagining of them, even if the almost-inconceivable possibility that the players’ conditions are unrelated to rugby turns out to be true. But the governing bodies would have no choice but to go hard in their pursuit of victory, which by definition means their pursuit of defeat and humiliation for the players.
Rugby very definitely would not be the winner. Any victory in the courts – and victory for the governing bodies is a perfectly plausible outcome – would be pyrrhic, the damage to the sport’s reputation almost as devastating as the very concept of neuro-degenerative conditions arising is to its future viability.
If nothing else, though, such proceedings should underscore the risks involved in playing a collision sport. If players know and understand those, so the defenders of the faith argue, they can decide for themselves if they want to play on. There may be something in that for the grown-ups – so long as best practices are observed in the recognition and treatment of brain injuries. But that line does not work with the kids.
Adult rugby will soldier on, whatever the outcome of this case. It is in the schools where the sport’s future will be decided. Already it feels, certainly in the little corner of the rugby world where I reside, as if there has been a sea change in attitudes, both among those playing and their parents. School rugby bears no comparison to its equivalent in the last years of the amateur era.
Professionalism may be restricted to the adult game, but its ethos pervades. Those not wholly committed must drop out sooner or later, for their own health as much as anything.
In order to play school rugby to any level of proficiency these days, from around the age of 15, one needs to be well-acquainted with the inside of a gym. There are conditioning programmes to be observed by players at even the mid-ranking schools.
Given some at that age are to all intents and purposes adults physically and others still very much children, the prospect for injury, whether to brain or bone, is already alarming. Sprinkle in the concerns of parents and, lest we forget, the demands of public exams, and it should not come as any real surprise the game will soon face a reckoning in the schools.
If in a couple of years’ time we must also watch the guardians of the sport eviscerate its former players, their lives in ruins as it is, in a court of law, we might as well switch off rugby’s lights now. This case is incredibly important for the players concerned and those to come and incredibly dangerous for the sport. Let us hope the protagonists on both sides know what they are doing.
Rugby Fan- Moderator
- Posts : 8215
Join date : 2012-09-14
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
RF - Interesting article from Aylwin.
I've posted it before but I heard early after the lawsuit was announced that drugs, booze, etc was an obvious reason that this might settle out of court. The boards will want that dragged up in court as little as the players.
Coke use is meant to be rife in the highest levels of rugby and most sport. I've seen first hand that it is in the higher amateur leagues in England and Scotland. It's not like the players going pro and having more disposable income is going to stop that. PEDs will be used extensively in rugby as well. Whilst the booze culture in rugby isn't even hidden.
I've posted it before but I heard early after the lawsuit was announced that drugs, booze, etc was an obvious reason that this might settle out of court. The boards will want that dragged up in court as little as the players.
Coke use is meant to be rife in the highest levels of rugby and most sport. I've seen first hand that it is in the higher amateur leagues in England and Scotland. It's not like the players going pro and having more disposable income is going to stop that. PEDs will be used extensively in rugby as well. Whilst the booze culture in rugby isn't even hidden.
king_carlos- Posts : 12766
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Ankh-Morpork
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
Isn't that exactly the sort of article that Moore is warning against?
Aylwin makes it clear that he already thinks it's an "almost-inconceivable possibility that the players’ conditions are unrelated to rugby". He may be right, but he's hardly going into the process unbiased as to either the result or as to who the villains of the piece are (rattling on about the unions' allegedly deep pockets, armies of lawyers and the awfulness of cross-examination).
I'm also not sure I agree with him about a date in court being a disaster. It certainly won't be pretty, for either side, but it is probably the only route to provide any level of legal certainty around the outcome. It will determine what, if any, liability the unions hold for what has happened to these players, and establish a precedent for future cases. That's important for both sides to have; without it, the unions' support for the players becomes very open ended unless they decide not to offer anything.
I think he has a good point about rugby in schools. The hit to player numbers could be huge and that's why the tackle height reductions last year were so important - though I don't think that's well enough understood by parents and community rugby (and I don't think it's been well-enough communicated).
At the same time, the affected players need our compassion and support, though to some extent what the unions can do is constrained by the court case as it could be seen as an admission of liability.
Aylwin makes it clear that he already thinks it's an "almost-inconceivable possibility that the players’ conditions are unrelated to rugby". He may be right, but he's hardly going into the process unbiased as to either the result or as to who the villains of the piece are (rattling on about the unions' allegedly deep pockets, armies of lawyers and the awfulness of cross-examination).
I'm also not sure I agree with him about a date in court being a disaster. It certainly won't be pretty, for either side, but it is probably the only route to provide any level of legal certainty around the outcome. It will determine what, if any, liability the unions hold for what has happened to these players, and establish a precedent for future cases. That's important for both sides to have; without it, the unions' support for the players becomes very open ended unless they decide not to offer anything.
I think he has a good point about rugby in schools. The hit to player numbers could be huge and that's why the tackle height reductions last year were so important - though I don't think that's well enough understood by parents and community rugby (and I don't think it's been well-enough communicated).
At the same time, the affected players need our compassion and support, though to some extent what the unions can do is constrained by the court case as it could be seen as an admission of liability.
Poorfour- Posts : 6428
Join date : 2011-10-01
Lowlandbrit likes this post
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
dummy_half wrote:BigGee wrote:That is a very impressive article from Brian Moore trying to make some sense of what is an incredibly complicated issues and highlighting some of the pitfalls the complainants will face.
This is certainly not going to be a question of sign here and then collect the cheque!
I can think of very few, if any, other people better positioned to write such an article for a lay reader. My experience with the Law (as an Expert Witness) is that it is much more nuanced than simply finding the truth of a situation. Indeed, the law, truth and morality only intersect some of the time and usually only by accident.
There is one weakness in the article though, and that is that Moore doesn't explain that as a civil claim rather than a criminal case, the burden of proof is 'more likely than not' rather than 'beyond reasonable doubt', and as such the claimants have a lower bar to get over than proving criminal negligence.
It's a very good article. The other significant thing missed is sub concussive blows being a massive contributing factor to CTE. If not the main factor. Which is something that seems to have been ignored across the mainstream reporting of this issue to a bizarre, some might argue wilful, degree.
The focus has almost entirely been on concussions. A very important topic of course. The issue of growing research showing that sub concussive blows can also cause DAI (diffuse axonal injury) has been relatively poorly reported. In short DAI's occur when the axons, which is the part of a nerve cell that carries signals to other neurons, shear when the brain rapidly accelerates or decelerates. In extreme cases this is the process that leads to major TBI. In more mild cases concussion. Growing research has shown that it also occurs due to sub concussive blows. When sportsman receive enough sub concussive blows over their career the cumulative effect can lead to CTE.
Concussion absolutely plays a role and shouldn't be ignored. But neither should that. Especially when the fitness and size of players means that we are seeing more collisions and bigger collisions than ever before. In the pre pro era RWCs the average tackles and carries combined for teams was 134. In the 2023 RWC it's approaching 300. Marcos Kremer hit 46 rucks in the 3rd/4th playoff. That's more than the average of an entire team in the first three RWCs.
There is now far less contact training than Thompson's era. Which will help with the issue of sub concussive blows. Whilst players are playing close to 30 games, 2000 minutes a year at the modern intensity I struggle to see that being the solution alone though.
king_carlos- Posts : 12766
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Ankh-Morpork
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
Poorfour wrote:I'm also not sure I agree with [Aylwin] about a date in court being a disaster. It certainly won't be pretty, for either side, but it is probably the only route to provide any level of legal certainty around the outcome.
A court can provide a ruling, but it would be far better if the two sides could resolve the matter before it does. For instance, some kind of settlement package from the defendants, recognising the distress of many of the claimants, while not accepting any liability. That's what happened in the NFL (although a court later ruled on the fairness of the settlement, and there is still separate litigation ongoing).
However, there may be some claimants who are unconcerned about money, and won't be prepared to accept anything less than a formal recognition of a link between rugby and their medical condition. For them, the case might be more about vindication for erratic behaviour and disrupted relationships.
There may also be defendants who don't want to offer any financial settlement, either because they feel it is unaffordable, or perhaps they view the claims against them as a shakedown.
There are lots of possible reasons for intransigence on both sides.
Poorfour wrote:Isn't that exactly the sort of article that Moore is warning against? Aylwin makes it clear that he already thinks it's an "almost-inconceivable possibility that the players’ conditions are unrelated to rugby".
Yes, Aylwin does seem to be siding with the claimants, and Moore's article was very good at showing how that's not helpful in predicting where this case goes.
What both articles highlight is the way this issue is playing out both in court, and in public. For instance, if the court ends up ruling the claimants can't demonstrate a link, and the rugby authorities have no liability, it's hard to think that will be the end of the matter.
As Moore points out, the authorities still have a duty to mitigate forseeable risks, so there'll be no reverse course on HIA protocols, or tackle height laws. That won't please any players and fans who have threatened to leave the game over the introduction of these measures. At the same time, there'll be part of public opinion that will continue to side with the claimants, and feel that rugby is a dangerous sport in denial about its risks. That's not a great outcome for future playing numbers.
Similarly, if the court finds for the claimants, then we are in unchartered territory. Rugby will be legally linked to traumatic head injuries, which will probably lead to some schools dropping it from the curriculum. The financial consequences could be be ruinous for the professional sport. The whole code might have to be bailed out by a body like Saudi Arabia, or operate in much reduced circumstances.
Brian Moore explains how the NFL settlement has little legal bearing on the rugby case before the court. That's useful, because there are plenty of people, perhaps even many of the claimants themselves, who see the NFL result as irrefutable proof of similar harm in rugby, and can't understand why the authorities seem to disagree.
Moore's frustration is partly down to how public opinion is polarising, when so little is known about the case. Really, all we can glean is that hundreds of players have put their names to the claims, some of who have gone public with their current difficulties. We don't know any details of settlement proposals, let alone how far apart they might be. There was hope we'd get more clarity at the High Court the other day, but we just got more players names, and the view from Judge Jeremy Cook that the claimants hadn't yet provided sufficient medical evidence to progress the case.
Rugby Fan- Moderator
- Posts : 8215
Join date : 2012-09-14
Poorfour likes this post
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
The family of Super Rugby player and Maori All Black Billy Guyton had his brain checked after he passed last year. He had stage 2 CTE. This is how it is being reported.
Rugby Fan- Moderator
- Posts : 8215
Join date : 2012-09-14
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
Wally Lewis is getting a lot of coverage, as he opens up on what he believes are CTE-linked health issues. He's one of the greatest League players ever, a captain of the Kangaroos, a club coach, and a TV sports presenter, so he's always been in the public eye, and closely associated with the sport.
https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/legendary-rugby-league-star-wally-lewis-appeals-concussion-109523838CANBERRA, Australia -- A legendary rugby player has cited the fear and anxiety that has come into his life among the reasons for urging the Australian government to fund support services and education about chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE).
Wally Lewis, dubbed “The King” when he played rugby league for Queensland state and Australia in the 1980s, made an appeal on behalf of the Concussion and CTE Coalition for millions of dollars in funding during a National Press Club address Tuesday.
The 64-year-old Lewis said he’s living with probable CTE, which he described as a type of dementia associated with repeated concussive and sub-concussive blows to the head.
Lewis, who worked for decades as a television sports anchor after retiring as a player in the early 1990s, relayed his own experience to get his message across.
“The fear is real. I don’t want anyone to have to live with the fear and anxiety that I live with every day, worried about what I’ve forgotten ... the fear of what my future will look like,” Lewis said. “And living with the constant fear and anxiety that I’ll let people down – the people who all my life have been able to rely on me and looked to me for my strength and leadership.”
Lewis led Australia’s Kangaroos in 24 international matches, was among the original players to popularize the annual State-of-Origin series, and was included in Australia’s Rugby League Team of the Century in 2008.
The National Rugby League has honored him as a so-called “Immortal” of the game.
Yet his memories of it aren’t clear. He started playing rugby league as a young boy and also played rugby union at an elite level before embarking on a professional career in rugby league.
“It’s a journey marked by the twin shadows of fear and embarrassment, a journey through the fog of dementia and the erosion of my memory,” he said. “I once had the confidence in myself to succeed, lead a team to victory, captain my country, remember the strengths and weaknesses of opposition teams, organize myself each and every day and feel well and truly in control of my life.
“Now, much of that confidence has been taken away from me by the effects of probable CTE dementia.”
Lewis said better community awareness on concussion was needed and prevention programs, including a sharper focus on tackling techniques from young players through to professionals.
Awareness of CTE and concussion has grown since players in contact football sports, including the National Football League in the United States and rugby union in Britain, launched concussion lawsuits.
The Rugby World Cup took place last year against the backdrop of a concussion lawsuit in Britain that had similarities to one settled by the NFL in 2013 at a likely cost of more than $1 billion.
CTE, a degenerative brain disease known to cause violent moods, depression, dementia and other cognitive difficulties, can only be diagnosed posthumously. It has been linked to repeated hits to the head endured by football, rugby and hockey players, boxers and members of the military.
“As Wally Lewis I have influence – I have a platform – and I intend to use it at every opportunity to bring about change for all Australians like me who are impacted by CTE,” Lewis said, “and to do whatever I can to protect the brains of Australian children from CTE.”
https://wwos.nine.com.au/nrl/news-2024-wally-lewis-concussion-warning-ban-on-tackling/c00413cc-9dc6-48a6-993b-ea034ec46cfaRugby League Immortal Wally Lewis has implored NRL officials to install broader safeguards against concussion, calling for a blanket ban on contact and tackling for children and amateur players during training.
In his address to the National Press Club in Canberra, the man known as 'The King', now an ambassador for Dementia Australia, warned the code's administrators the game was at risk of dying out if broader regulation of players' health does not become a a priority.
Pressure is mounting on the NRL to deal with head trauma in the game as Lewis warned young players are turning away from contact sports "at an alarming rate" as the heroes of yesteryear reveal the personal toll they've had to bear as a result of the concussions they've suffered.
Lewis said amateur players should not engage in full body contact during training sessions and teaching children how to tackle safely should be top priority for clubs, including using soft pads during training.
"If we love rugby league enough … our number one priority will be the health and wellbeing, the long-term effect and safety for players, and the game lasting," Lewis said.
"If it's being seen as too dangerous by the parents of the kids that possibly could play the game, then it's a matter of time before it's the end, the end is coming.
"You have got to take it to every level possible to be able to encourage people firstly to play, to encourage parents their kids are okay to be playing that sport.
"It's certainly a situation where the numbers in sport … contact sports, really do appear to be dropping at an alarming rate."
Rugby Fan- Moderator
- Posts : 8215
Join date : 2012-09-14
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
This looks interesting regards treatment for concussion and is being trialled on rugby players :
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/articles/cy0lknlv2ylo#:~:text='PolarCap'%20works%20by%20delivering%20targeted,reduce%20long%2Dterm%20concussion%20absence.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/articles/cy0lknlv2ylo#:~:text='PolarCap'%20works%20by%20delivering%20targeted,reduce%20long%2Dterm%20concussion%20absence.
mountain man- Posts : 3364
Join date : 2021-03-09
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
Thanks for sharing, mate. This technology seems pretty interesting. I had heard something about this approach some time ago, but didn't realise it was this far along. I really hope there is something to it in real terms.mountain man wrote:This looks interesting regards treatment for concussion and is being trialled on rugby players :
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/articles/cy0lknlv2ylo#:~:text='PolarCap'%20works%20by%20delivering%20targeted,reduce%20long%2Dterm%20concussion%20absence.
On one hand, it seems simple, almost obvious. When we take a knock we generally follow the RICE approach, or much of it: Rest, Ice, Compression, Elevation. So why not a cooling device for the head which - could - reduce some of the swelling in the brain after head trauma. On the other hand, if this was really simple it would have been done before. As I say, hope it works.
In a similar vein, we were just notified by the NFL that the padding which can go over a helmet is now allowed in games if the player wants. And the story is here. I think this is interesting, too:
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/40031598/nfl-allow-guardian-caps-helmets-regular-season
doctor_grey- Posts : 12348
Join date : 2011-04-30
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
They look like giant scrum caps
lostinwales- lostinwales
- Posts : 13368
Join date : 2011-06-09
Location : Out of Wales :)
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
A player of the stature of Wally Lewis talking about concussion is significant. He was known as a hard, nuggety player, so it would be a bit like Shaun Edwards speaking out here.
Some Union supporters bemoan the code's concern about concussion, by highlighting the way Rugby League celebrates big hits in its TV marketing. The implication seems to be that League doesn't care about high contact and safe tackling, so Union shouldn't.
It's a good reminder that Union isn't a pioneer among contact sports in looking at these health issues. The reason Union has particular challenges is that, unlike the NFL and NRL, it has thriving international competion, alongside domestic competitions. Top players in union play more than their counterparts in other codes, and that's still being managed poorly.
Any treatment like that PolarCap should be welcomed. Ultimately, though, the sport needs to find a better-paced season for players, and then figure out how to make money out of it.
Some Union supporters bemoan the code's concern about concussion, by highlighting the way Rugby League celebrates big hits in its TV marketing. The implication seems to be that League doesn't care about high contact and safe tackling, so Union shouldn't.
It's a good reminder that Union isn't a pioneer among contact sports in looking at these health issues. The reason Union has particular challenges is that, unlike the NFL and NRL, it has thriving international competion, alongside domestic competitions. Top players in union play more than their counterparts in other codes, and that's still being managed poorly.
Any treatment like that PolarCap should be welcomed. Ultimately, though, the sport needs to find a better-paced season for players, and then figure out how to make money out of it.
Rugby Fan- Moderator
- Posts : 8215
Join date : 2012-09-14
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
Rugby Fan wrote:A player of the stature of Wally Lewis talking about concussion is significant. He was known as a hard, nuggety player, so it would be a bit like Shaun Edwards speaking out here.
Some Union supporters bemoan the code's concern about concussion, by highlighting the way Rugby League celebrates big hits in its TV marketing. The implication seems to be that League doesn't care about high contact and safe tackling, so Union shouldn't.
It's a good reminder that Union isn't a pioneer among contact sports in looking at these health issues. The reason Union has particular challenges is that, unlike the NFL and NRL, it has thriving international competion, alongside domestic competitions. Top players in union play more than their counterparts in other codes, and that's still being managed poorly.
Any treatment like that PolarCap should be welcomed. Ultimately, though, the sport needs to find a better-paced season for players, and then figure out how to make money out of it.
In fairness, the only slightly prominent pundit I've heard that from is JB on Eggchasers? I guess Cocker occasionally joins in when he gets egged up by JB. Phil usually just sits quietly whilst they go off. Which is in line with Phil seeming like the brightest of the bunch by a distance.
Given that JB seemed to fully lose his mind over lockdown, he's not someone who's opinion I'd put the most stock on. Other JB views that come to mind from before I gave up on Eggchasers were, "Men only watch women's rugby if they want to leer at young women", which frankly felt like a projection of his own thoughts from a very unpleasant man, and, "Your health is better off if you get concussed and taken off the field for a HIA as that would reduce the total number of sub-concussive blows you receive by playing more minutes", which is Simple Jack in Tropic Thunder levels of challenged.
In fairness to Eggchasers, I have listened to Egganomics. It's really good on the financial side of rugby. Vitally though, it includes Mark Evans. Who is both far more intelligent and knowledgeable than JB, and will tell JB to STFU, then correct him when he's spouting BS. Which was sorely missing from the main pod when it descended from very good rugby podcast to far right nut jobs pulpit.
king_carlos- Posts : 12766
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Ankh-Morpork
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
That JB definitely seems like a very unpleasant person.
RiscaGame- Moderator
- Posts : 5963
Join date : 2016-01-24
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
We are still some way from going to trial in Britain. Telegraph update:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2024/05/20/rugby-concussion-lawsuit-trial-delayed-2025/
A trial date in the concussion lawsuit involving dozens of players including World Cup winners Steve Thompson, Phil Vickery and Mark Regan against rugby union’s authorities will not be set until 2025 at the earliest.
On Monday at the Royal Courts of Justice, Senior Master Cook rejected an application for a group litigation order (GLO) as he admonished both sides for the slow exchange of information that is preventing a trial date being set. Senior Master Cook warned both the claimants, represented by Rylands Garth, and the defendants including World Rugby, the Rugby Football Union and the Welsh Rugby Union, that it would be “untenable” to find themselves in the same position early next year.
In December, Rylands Garth revealed it was representing 295 rugby players who it claims are suffering from a range of symptoms related to brain injuries they sustained during their careers. It must now supply medical records, including MRI scans and neuropsychologist reports, for all its claimants by Oct 31.
Rugby’s authorities, meanwhile, must assist Rylands in pursuing medical records from individual clubs all over the world relating to the players involved in the case by July. Senior Master Cook noted both sides face a “herculean task” to provide and analyse such information but is adamant progress has to be made after the third case management hearing, which is supposed to set the parameters for what can be disputed at trial, ended in more gridlock.
“I don’t want to find ourselves in January next year with everyone arguing that they have not received the necessary disclosures,” Senior Master Cook said. Separate hearings will be heard for an application for a cohort of players to remain anonymous in the process as well as for the cost sharing by both sides.
GLOs are commonly associated with industrial disease claims such as respiratory problems suffered by coal miners. This would allow Rylands to bunch all the individual claims into a single group action based on a group of selected players. While it has offered a cohort of 45 players as test cases, Senior Master Cook ruled that rugby authorities could not know if they are a representative sample until they have seen all the relevant medical records. “You cannot choose lead cases until there’s been a proper exchange of information rather than relying upon a self-selecting cohort,” he said.
Previewing a potential trial, Senior Master Cook noted that causation “is going to be fiendishly difficult” to prove and urged both sides to be inventive and creative in the legal mechanism they deploy with Rylands Garth also taking a separate action against rugby league’s authorities.
A joint statement from World Rugby, the RFU and WRU read: “We welcome the progress made today. The Court’s clear direction, that the players’ legal representatives must provide full details of the claims being made against us, including medical screening test results they are yet to share, enables everyone to move forward. As Senior Master Cook noted, there is ‘no way’ further progress can be made without the players’ legal representatives sharing this important information.
“The parties will now work towards sharing the information necessary to move this case forwards. Player welfare continues to be rugby’s number one priority and although we cannot contact the players involved in this case directly we want them to know that we continue to listen, we continue to care and we will continue to act.”
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2024/05/20/rugby-concussion-lawsuit-trial-delayed-2025/
Rugby Fan- Moderator
- Posts : 8215
Join date : 2012-09-14
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
Upcoming BBC program on this, Rugby on Trial. Advertised as 20:30 Monday but not today that I can see. Anyway be available on iPlayer so be worth looking out for.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyn2ny1254o
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyn2ny1254o
mountain man- Posts : 3364
Join date : 2021-03-09
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
If true, and Will Green’s side of the story seems very credible, this is really unethical and unhelpful:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024/oct/15/laywer-leading-brain-injury-lawsuit-under-investigation-over-player-recruitment
In summary, Green was told by the legal team’s medical expert that he had early onset dementia, but no evidence was produced and he eventually sought a second opinion which found no signs of brain damage. The solictors billed him for the tests they performed, then sued him when he refused to pay - and lost the case.
Green claims that he is not the only former player with a similar story and the lead solicitor in the case is now under investigation by the regulator.
This kind of behaviour in trying to recruit more litigants (and therefore extract a bigger settlement and more fees) undermines the case and significantly reduces the chance that those ex-players who genuinely do have cognitive damage will get a fair hearing. It’s going to be hard for any court to trust the players’ side of the case after this.
(Edited to correct multiple erroneous autocorrections)
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024/oct/15/laywer-leading-brain-injury-lawsuit-under-investigation-over-player-recruitment
In summary, Green was told by the legal team’s medical expert that he had early onset dementia, but no evidence was produced and he eventually sought a second opinion which found no signs of brain damage. The solictors billed him for the tests they performed, then sued him when he refused to pay - and lost the case.
Green claims that he is not the only former player with a similar story and the lead solicitor in the case is now under investigation by the regulator.
This kind of behaviour in trying to recruit more litigants (and therefore extract a bigger settlement and more fees) undermines the case and significantly reduces the chance that those ex-players who genuinely do have cognitive damage will get a fair hearing. It’s going to be hard for any court to trust the players’ side of the case after this.
(Edited to correct multiple erroneous autocorrections)
Last edited by Poorfour on Wed 16 Oct 2024, 10:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
Poorfour- Posts : 6428
Join date : 2011-10-01
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
I am very suspicious of this being a ploy by the defendants to create doubt. Maybe I am overly cynical but thats what it looks like to me
TJ- Posts : 8629
Join date : 2013-09-22
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
TJ wrote:I am very suspicious of this being a ploy by the defendants to create doubt. Maybe I am overly cynical but thats what it looks like to me
I take it you didn’t actually read the article, then. Because the issue is that a medical expert acting for the plaintiffs’ lawyer told a former player who had approached them that he had CTE when he didn’t.
Even if the respondents (it’s not a criminal case) had put Green up to approaching the case, if the lawyers had just said “Nope, you’re not suffering from CTE” then there would have been no issue. But it looks very much like they lied to him to try to include him in the case.
While I have huge sympathy for the players involved, and I want them to receive the support they need, it is also really important that this case is decided based on the facts rather than our biases about the unions.
Even taking the most restrained view, this case will define the future of rugby. If the unions are found to have covered up what they knew or taken inadequate steps to prevent repeated concussions, the scale of compensation could very easily end professional rugby as a sport. It’s really important that we (and more importantly the courts) don’t jump to conclusions on the basis of unethical practices and bad evidence.
Poorfour- Posts : 6428
Join date : 2011-10-01
lostinwales likes this post
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
I actually think the issue will be simpler than that. In court they would have to prove that concussion is correlated to the sport which is a difficult correlation to make. If they do win they will no doubt end the sport but I'm not sure the science to make such a case is available or goes in their favour.
I suspect they may try to settle this beforehand, similar to what happened in the NFL. NFL paid 765mill dollars (588 million GBP) for 4500 plaintiffs. You would have to assume given the scope of rugby players in the suite is substantially smaller than those numbers so I can see them getting a settlement anywhere near that amount. Last number in the papers had them at 295 so just doing the math on the above this case might be as little as 38 million between the 295 players. No idea how it will all go but the big winners here will be the solicitors.
I suspect they may try to settle this beforehand, similar to what happened in the NFL. NFL paid 765mill dollars (588 million GBP) for 4500 plaintiffs. You would have to assume given the scope of rugby players in the suite is substantially smaller than those numbers so I can see them getting a settlement anywhere near that amount. Last number in the papers had them at 295 so just doing the math on the above this case might be as little as 38 million between the 295 players. No idea how it will all go but the big winners here will be the solicitors.
Welshmushroom- Posts : 2622
Join date : 2011-08-09
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
I think the medical consensus is already established that repeated concussions cause CTE. The case is about how early the unions knew that, and whether they did enough to prevent concussion in the game.
The NFL settled because it was clear that they had been covering up the risks for a long time.
I don’t think the powers that be in rugby were anywhere near as bad, but equally there are some signs that they should have reacted faster than they did - e.g. Barry O’Driscoll’s resignation, which IIRC was the trigger for the current head injury protocol, and even today they have lowered the tackle height for most of the game but not at elite level.
The NFL settled because it was clear that they had been covering up the risks for a long time.
I don’t think the powers that be in rugby were anywhere near as bad, but equally there are some signs that they should have reacted faster than they did - e.g. Barry O’Driscoll’s resignation, which IIRC was the trigger for the current head injury protocol, and even today they have lowered the tackle height for most of the game but not at elite level.
Last edited by Poorfour on Thu 17 Oct 2024, 10:48 am; edited 1 time in total
Poorfour- Posts : 6428
Join date : 2011-10-01
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
Nothing was clear about the NFL arbitration. The main reason they settled was due to the bad publicity and the players all settled because litigation costs would have been massive, the amount of time that it would have taken to get a final verdict as it would have been contested multiple times before an actual result would have been found and finally because no such sporting case has ever successfully won this type of argument in court.
The rugby case in court would be even harder to win for a whole host of reasons. This has your classic out of court settlement written all over it. The sad thing in all of this is when the solicitors start taking their cuts I'm not sure exactly how much the players will get out of it especially the ones who probably need it.
Who knows though for sure and we may see this in court.....
The rugby case in court would be even harder to win for a whole host of reasons. This has your classic out of court settlement written all over it. The sad thing in all of this is when the solicitors start taking their cuts I'm not sure exactly how much the players will get out of it especially the ones who probably need it.
Who knows though for sure and we may see this in court.....
Welshmushroom- Posts : 2622
Join date : 2011-08-09
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
The leadership of the NFL medical staff umbrella organisations are certainly taking this very seriously. Last evening the leadership of one of the umbrella organisations of the CANAM med community scheduled a 2+ hr video meeting for this afternoon. Includes ~150 med staff combined from other NFL and CFL teams, 2 or 3 college programs (as guest invitees), Major League Baseball, NHL and NBA.
The primary purposes are:
1. Ensure representatives from the major American and Canadian pro sport teams/leagues/docs have the same information about this before any action or policy is discussed, agreed, coordinated.
2. Further align proposed approaches/processes to the proposed disciplinary action and response/support to the legal investigators between all of us. Also ensure it is properly resourced.
3. Establish the information baselines which would feed any potential criminal investigations (to be aligned with the leagues and investigators who are frequently on different pages).
4. Ensure any proposal is acceptable to the legal community, league management, and team owners.
Whereas it is important to ensure everyone has the exact same information, I think the session about punishment will not be long. They are not looking for a detailed plan at this moment, but for big picture alignment on the principles involved and establish working teams to dive into the details.
But this part is critical: Everything I wrote presumes guilt (and we have to be extremely careful when doing that). But whether guilty or not, we need an across the board approach to future potential issues like this. If guilty, this violates the Hippocratic Oath and the laws in most civilised countries. If the doc mentioned in the complaint is actually innocent, we must be careful because this can (likely will) destroy a career.
In addition to a number of medical files, they also sent us the following two articles:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024/oct/15/laywer-leading-brain-injury-lawsuit-under-investigation-over-player-recruitment
https://www.thetimes.com/sport/rugby-union/article/ex-england-prop-accuses-law-firm-of-pressuring-him-to-lie-about-dementia-jbmmv39dm
more to follow
The primary purposes are:
1. Ensure representatives from the major American and Canadian pro sport teams/leagues/docs have the same information about this before any action or policy is discussed, agreed, coordinated.
2. Further align proposed approaches/processes to the proposed disciplinary action and response/support to the legal investigators between all of us. Also ensure it is properly resourced.
3. Establish the information baselines which would feed any potential criminal investigations (to be aligned with the leagues and investigators who are frequently on different pages).
4. Ensure any proposal is acceptable to the legal community, league management, and team owners.
Whereas it is important to ensure everyone has the exact same information, I think the session about punishment will not be long. They are not looking for a detailed plan at this moment, but for big picture alignment on the principles involved and establish working teams to dive into the details.
But this part is critical: Everything I wrote presumes guilt (and we have to be extremely careful when doing that). But whether guilty or not, we need an across the board approach to future potential issues like this. If guilty, this violates the Hippocratic Oath and the laws in most civilised countries. If the doc mentioned in the complaint is actually innocent, we must be careful because this can (likely will) destroy a career.
In addition to a number of medical files, they also sent us the following two articles:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024/oct/15/laywer-leading-brain-injury-lawsuit-under-investigation-over-player-recruitment
https://www.thetimes.com/sport/rugby-union/article/ex-england-prop-accuses-law-firm-of-pressuring-him-to-lie-about-dementia-jbmmv39dm
more to follow
doctor_grey- Posts : 12348
Join date : 2011-04-30
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
The piece Brian Moore wote last December (linked earlier in this thread) still applies. He pointed out the NFL settlement has no legal bearing on the case being brought against rugby, and the relevant arguments in this case have still not been made public. Exasperated at all the uninformed commentary, Moore said no-one can safely take a view on what judgement might be handed down if the case does get to court.
The Telegraph article on Will Green will probably confirm some people's suspicions that the whole court case is a shakedown racket. That's unfortunate if it cements opinions on both sides, and makes it harder to get an out-of-court settlement. Nevertheless, it can be true that lawyers and doctors for the plaintiffs have acted unscrupulously, while the general issue a stake is still valid.
I may have banged this drum before, but a court case seems like the worst outcome. A finding against rugby would be financially devastating, and may stop schools playing the sport. However, a ruling for rugby would probably not be any better, as it would raise major trust issues.
Everyone probably has a different time when they concluded concussion was an issue in rugby. For me, it was when Chris Ashton was knocked out cold at Twickenham against South Africa in 2010 in the early minutes, and didn't go off. Referee George Clancy raised concerns about his condition but had no authority to remove him from play. A year earlier, when the Lions played South Africa, and BOD smashed Danie Rossouw, I didn't care about all the staggering bodies.
To be frank, I was probably less concerned about the individual health consequences. Initially, it was more the realization that concussed players were a liability for the rest of the match, so I wanted them gone.
I think there was a period when the governing bodies should have known about concussion risks but didn't act. Still, even now we don't know how the sport should be balancing risks, so it was more likely ignorance than bad faith which led World Rugby to be so slow to respond.
My preferred outcome is one where rugby goes the out-of-court route and accepts some responsibility, without full legal liability. Plaintiffs get some relief, but the main settlement is how to handle concussion in the sport going forward.
The Telegraph article on Will Green will probably confirm some people's suspicions that the whole court case is a shakedown racket. That's unfortunate if it cements opinions on both sides, and makes it harder to get an out-of-court settlement. Nevertheless, it can be true that lawyers and doctors for the plaintiffs have acted unscrupulously, while the general issue a stake is still valid.
I may have banged this drum before, but a court case seems like the worst outcome. A finding against rugby would be financially devastating, and may stop schools playing the sport. However, a ruling for rugby would probably not be any better, as it would raise major trust issues.
Everyone probably has a different time when they concluded concussion was an issue in rugby. For me, it was when Chris Ashton was knocked out cold at Twickenham against South Africa in 2010 in the early minutes, and didn't go off. Referee George Clancy raised concerns about his condition but had no authority to remove him from play. A year earlier, when the Lions played South Africa, and BOD smashed Danie Rossouw, I didn't care about all the staggering bodies.
To be frank, I was probably less concerned about the individual health consequences. Initially, it was more the realization that concussed players were a liability for the rest of the match, so I wanted them gone.
I think there was a period when the governing bodies should have known about concussion risks but didn't act. Still, even now we don't know how the sport should be balancing risks, so it was more likely ignorance than bad faith which led World Rugby to be so slow to respond.
My preferred outcome is one where rugby goes the out-of-court route and accepts some responsibility, without full legal liability. Plaintiffs get some relief, but the main settlement is how to handle concussion in the sport going forward.
Rugby Fan- Moderator
- Posts : 8215
Join date : 2012-09-14
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
Well said both doctor_grey and Rugby Fan.
I have a couple of horses in this race. Ms Poorfour Maj hopes to be a professional rugby player. And while I don't know any of the plaintiffs personally, a close relative of one of them was a work colleague for nearly a decade.
I want to know that my daughter can pursue her dreams with both a clear understanding of the risks involved and the trust that her sport will take the right steps to protect her and her team mates as the evidence evolves. She has already benefited from the reduction in tackle heights (something that I helped in a small way to champion through the consultation process, sometimes in the face of almost wilful ignorance and resistance from the wider playing community), and I want to be sure she continues to benefit from transparency and swift action to further contain the risks.
I also want to see that the players affected get the help and support they need, but not at the price of destroying the sport.
As RF notes, if the law firm for the plaintiffs really has been recruiting unethically, then it reduces the chance that they will get fair treatment.
I sometimes wonder if the best resolution would be for the unions and WR to put money in trust (I assume they must have reserves set aside for the case already; it would be a serious dereliction of duty if they hadn't), and stand up an independent commission of experts to look at a) the degree to which the game has contributed to the players' condition, b) the degree to which the game has addressed the risk factors and c) what financial support these players need to restore their quality of life to a reasonable level.
But I'm also realistic enough to know that the issue is fraught enough - and the smell of money strong enough - that that kind of resolution is unlikely at best.
I have a couple of horses in this race. Ms Poorfour Maj hopes to be a professional rugby player. And while I don't know any of the plaintiffs personally, a close relative of one of them was a work colleague for nearly a decade.
I want to know that my daughter can pursue her dreams with both a clear understanding of the risks involved and the trust that her sport will take the right steps to protect her and her team mates as the evidence evolves. She has already benefited from the reduction in tackle heights (something that I helped in a small way to champion through the consultation process, sometimes in the face of almost wilful ignorance and resistance from the wider playing community), and I want to be sure she continues to benefit from transparency and swift action to further contain the risks.
I also want to see that the players affected get the help and support they need, but not at the price of destroying the sport.
As RF notes, if the law firm for the plaintiffs really has been recruiting unethically, then it reduces the chance that they will get fair treatment.
I sometimes wonder if the best resolution would be for the unions and WR to put money in trust (I assume they must have reserves set aside for the case already; it would be a serious dereliction of duty if they hadn't), and stand up an independent commission of experts to look at a) the degree to which the game has contributed to the players' condition, b) the degree to which the game has addressed the risk factors and c) what financial support these players need to restore their quality of life to a reasonable level.
But I'm also realistic enough to know that the issue is fraught enough - and the smell of money strong enough - that that kind of resolution is unlikely at best.
Poorfour- Posts : 6428
Join date : 2011-10-01
Unclear likes this post
Re: Concussion, early onset dementia and CTE
Just noticed Montpellier said on Friday that lock Paul Willemse will take a three month break from rugby, after suffering his sixth concussion in a year. Following his fifth incident, Willemse apparently said a sixth concussion would probably mean it was time to give up rugby. There's speculation he may call time on his career.
French language link here:
https://www.rugbypass.com/fr/news/top-14-le-montpellierain-willemse-a-larret-pendant-trois-mois/
French language link here:
https://www.rugbypass.com/fr/news/top-14-le-montpellierain-willemse-a-larret-pendant-trois-mois/
Rugby Fan- Moderator
- Posts : 8215
Join date : 2012-09-14
Page 5 of 5 • 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Similar topics
» Dementia
» Getting the Excuses in Early
» Any early leaders for the RWC ...
» Playing early...
» T20's Born To Early XI
» Getting the Excuses in Early
» Any early leaders for the RWC ...
» Playing early...
» T20's Born To Early XI
The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Rugby Union :: International
Page 5 of 5
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum