Brexit

First topic message reminder :

"man that negotiated the Australia deal with the EU" - Who is this man? I only ask because Australia don't have a deal with the EU; they are, however, in the process of negotiating one.

lostinwales wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:Oops:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/border-guards-sandwiches-confiscated-brexit-b845171.html

Still being sold as EU being nasty to us though.

Of course, but that doesn't alter the fact that certain food products are currently falling foul of the Brexit situation. Surely, it doesn't matter what it's sold as; the facts on the ground are the facts on the ground. Still, I guess there are plenty who'd happily blame the EU in its entirety, even though it was presumably incumbent on the UK to put plans in place for this and/or ensure this was covered in the withdrawal/trade agreements.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Derbymanc wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:

Derbymanc wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:Oops:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/border-guards-sandwiches-confiscated-brexit-b845171.html

Still being sold as EU being nasty to us though.

Same as Scotland saying England is being nasty to them

No it isn't. I'm no fan of the nationalist rhetoric from the Scots but these are in no way equivalent situations

Explain how Prawny

As far as I can see, it's one country saying they'd be better off without the other with no real evidence
And the union side saying, nope your better with us.

I'll admit I haven't been keeping up with it since the last referendum but i'd be interested to know more

Massive difference being one is an independent country free to make its own decisions over Brexit and the other is not despite making a decision on Brexit but the opposite happening.

Quick! There's a dead horse! Flog it!

Scotland could have exercised it's democratic right to vote for Labour in 2017 and prevented Brexit from happening.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote: Who said that any companies threatening to move to England are doing so purely to threaten voters to vote no in any daft referendum? Certainly not flyweight. You don't half invent things.

Well can you explain why super feels a vote for Yes may mean he faces a choice of redundancy or having to move to England to keep his job?

In 2014 there were a whole string of companies making these threats such as supermarkets Asda, Morrisons and other shops.

I can explain it.  

I work for a UK law firm (although we have offices all over the world) and am based in Scotland.  Whilst a number of my colleagues have Scottish based clients (e.g. RBS, Lloyds and Standard Life) the work I do is primarly for clients based in England.  A number of my colleagues are in the same boat as me simply because the English legal market is much bigger than the Scottish market.  The fact that I look after clients based in another jurisdiction is unique in our firm as we don't for example, have Irish based lawyers being the primary client contacts for UK based clients and we don't have Australian lawyers as the primary contact for clients based in China.  The Irish offices have their own cients, the Australian's have their clients and ditto with the Chinese.  Their is some collaboration between offices, but the relationship with the client is as localised as possible.  The UK is seen as one market and we are able to work closely with English clients, which just doesn't happen in other jurisdictions.

My clients have specifically said that should Scotland become independent that they would want their primary client contact to be based in England.  There are a number of reasons for this (including something as banal as the hassle of potentially having to pay for my time in a different currency and the exchange rate risk that goes with that) and I believe them when they say it.  That then leaves me in a position where I can't possibly generate the same income for the firm, will fail to meet my financial targets and will be made redundant.  Best case scenario is that they offer voluntary redundancy with a decent package.  The alternative would be to transfer to one of our English offices and uproot my family.  That means that my wife would have to leave her job and try to find a new job in a new location.  

Not a great time for either me or my wife to be job-hunting given the current situation.  If it was me taking redundancy I'd be doing so at at a time where there would be a lot of other lawyers in Scotland in the same boat as me and looking for new jobs.  Less than ideal and that's why I'd like a bit more than "we'll be fine" or Project Fear" when any difficult questions are asked about independence.  

Fair enough but what you are told and what is an actual reason are different things. Bosses at companies can also have political beliefs which rings out from time to time and causes them to take stances. I'd be interested to know if your company has offices/branches in Europe which it still has in operation and if so why since they'd be using different currency to the GBP and fall into the same category an independent Scotland would. As you state yourself their reasoning is 'banal' not wishing to pay in a different currency and exchange rate - seems a real minor reason for taking such a major step especially since currency-wise nothing would change in the short-term of an independent Scotland.

Of course it is up to everyone to vote as they see fit for their own reasons should IndyRef2 come about but polls suggest far moe now and not going to be swayed by 'Project Fear' which has been watered down greatly now since 2014 and will need to invent new reasons for the case for the union as some from 2014 are now extinct.

Yes, but as explained above, those offices have clients who are principally based in that country (e.g. our Munich office deals with Audi). As also explained above, I (and a number of other Scotiish based lawyers) have clients who are principally based in England as the UK is currently seen as one market and our clients consider it all to be part of the same jurisdiction (albeith the legal systems are different). That changes on independence because the United Kingdom with Scotland as a part of it will no longer exist.

The "banal" example was just a way of emphasising how a small difference can influence decision making (p.s. the exchange rate risk against what could be a volatile independent currency could be significant). The simple fact is that major clients will not retain lawyers in a jurisdiction in which they do not do business.

superflyweight wrote:Scotland could have exercised it's democratic right to vote for Labour in 2017 and prevented Brexit from happening.  

I voted Labour in 2017 for that very reason but not alot of SNP supporters realised that was their best bet.

Derbymanc wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:

Derbymanc wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:Oops:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/border-guards-sandwiches-confiscated-brexit-b845171.html

Still being sold as EU being nasty to us though.

Same as Scotland saying England is being nasty to them

No it isn't. I'm no fan of the nationalist rhetoric from the Scots but these are in no way equivalent situations

Explain how Prawny

As far as I can see, it's one country saying they'd be better off without the other with no real evidence
And the union side saying, nope your better with us.

I'll admit I haven't been keeping up with it since the last referendum but i'd be interested to know more

Issue here is I was being more finicky and you were being more general. I was talking about the EU enforcing rules and having them complained about.

The Scotland situation is more nuanced, I'm sure you'll agree. While they had their chance with the last IndyRef, I don't think anyone would have predicted the Brexit situation back then. Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain, I'd feel bitter if I was from there.

Pr4wn wrote:

Derbymanc wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:

Derbymanc wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:Oops:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/border-guards-sandwiches-confiscated-brexit-b845171.html

Still being sold as EU being nasty to us though.

Same as Scotland saying England is being nasty to them

No it isn't. I'm no fan of the nationalist rhetoric from the Scots but these are in no way equivalent situations

Explain how Prawny

As far as I can see, it's one country saying they'd be better off without the other with no real evidence
And the union side saying, nope your better with us.

I'll admit I haven't been keeping up with it since the last referendum but i'd be interested to know more

Issue here is I was being more finicky and you were being more general. I was talking about the EU enforcing rules and having them complained about.

The Scotland situation is more nuanced, I'm sure you'll agree. While they had their chance with the last IndyRef, I don't think anyone would have predicted the Brexit situation back then. Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain, I'd feel bitter if I was from there.

Wales and England voted Leave and got it. NI voted Remain but got a special deal. Scotland voted Remain and got the shaft. Its hard not to feel to bitter about it tbh.

CaledonianCraig wrote:I do love how unionist roll out the term nationalist or nationalism painting it as something poisonous - it really is hypocrisy of the highest order. Unionists are exactly the same - and worse if you ask me. The 'Rule Brittania' brigade are fierce BritNats. There is no two ways about it. In their idyllic world theirs is perfectly fine and normal and the purist way to be but any other nationality that is patriotic to their country and their beliefs that it should be a self0governing nation are painted as poisonous. Real pathetic.

Are there English who are unionists in any meaningful way? People who have maintaining the union between England and Scotland as a major part of their world view or politics.

I ask, because as far as I can tell, brexit was always about English nationalism. If those voting for brexit who lived in Scotland were fooled into thinking it was about a british or UK nationalism, they were quite mistaken.

McLaren wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:I do love how unionist roll out the term nationalist or nationalism painting it as something poisonous - it really is hypocrisy of the highest order. Unionists are exactly the same - and worse if you ask me. The 'Rule Brittania' brigade are fierce BritNats. There is no two ways about it. In their idyllic world theirs is perfectly fine and normal and the purist way to be but any other nationality that is patriotic to their country and their beliefs that it should be a self0governing nation are painted as poisonous. Real pathetic.

Are there English who are unionists in any meaningful way? People who have maintaining the union between England and Scotland as a major part of their world view or politics.

I ask, because as far as I can tell, brexit was always about English nationalism. If those voting for brexit who lived in Scotland were fooled into thinking it was about a british or UK nationalism, they were quite mistaken.

Nationalism exists in everyone - that is basically what I am saying here. If you are a unionist (whether from England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland) you actively feel affinity for the UK/Britain in the guise it is in at the moment and will passionately fight to keep it. What makes them any different from Scottish nationalists? What makes them any different from Welsh, English or Northern Irish nationalists or any other kind of nationalists. The only difference is that one (the UK) has its government and is governed and independent and can choose its own path in this world and the rest can't. Using the term nationalism as an insult or as a derogatory term is just plain stupid and hypocritical. It is also stereotyping people into pre-conceived ideas such as Scots (with Scotland flag painted on their faces screaming 'Freedom') which is very far from the truth.

Samo wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:

Derbymanc wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:

Derbymanc wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:Oops:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/border-guards-sandwiches-confiscated-brexit-b845171.html

Still being sold as EU being nasty to us though.

Same as Scotland saying England is being nasty to them

No it isn't. I'm no fan of the nationalist rhetoric from the Scots but these are in no way equivalent situations

Explain how Prawny

As far as I can see, it's one country saying they'd be better off without the other with no real evidence
And the union side saying, nope your better with us.

I'll admit I haven't been keeping up with it since the last referendum but i'd be interested to know more

Issue here is I was being more finicky and you were being more general. I was talking about the EU enforcing rules and having them complained about.

The Scotland situation is more nuanced, I'm sure you'll agree. While they had their chance with the last IndyRef, I don't think anyone would have predicted the Brexit situation back then. Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain, I'd feel bitter if I was from there.

Wales and England voted Leave and got it.  NI voted Remain but got a special deal.  Scotland voted Remain and got the shaft.  Its hard not to feel to bitter about it tbh.

Spot on. And all this from a union touted as 'a Union of Equals'. What went wrong?

Bear in mind that acknowledgement of feeling bitter is not agreeing that independence would be a good thing for Scotland in the long run. Feeling bitter like that can make you blinkered, clearly.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Nationalism exists in everyone - that is basically what I am saying here. If you are a unionist (whether from England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland) you actively feel affinity for the UK/Britain in the guise it is in at the moment and will passionately fight to keep it. What makes them any different from Scottish nationalists? What makes them any different from Welsh, English or Northern Irish nationalists or any other kind of nationalists. The only difference is that one (the UK) has its government and is governed and independent and can choose its own path in this world and the rest can't. Using the term nationalism as an insult or as a derogatory term is just plain stupid and hypocritical. It is also stereotyping people into pre-conceived ideas such as Scots (with Scotland flag painted on their faces screaming 'Freedom') which is very far from the truth.

Nationalism does not exist in everyone, such an absurd comment. Unionism is not nationalism either, thinking that Scotland would be better off as part of said Union does not make one a Unionist, it's akin to saying that all remain voters believe the EU should become a Federal republic for instance. It's just a comment you make to try and justify your own views which on the whole consist of 'Westminster bad', those who mock Scottish nationalism tend to also mock all forms of nationalism, how do you not understand that?

Soul Requiem wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Nationalism exists in everyone - that is basically what I am saying here. If you are a unionist (whether from England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland) you actively feel affinity for the UK/Britain in the guise it is in at the moment and will passionately fight to keep it. What makes them any different from Scottish nationalists? What makes them any different from Welsh, English or Northern Irish nationalists or any other kind of nationalists. The only difference is that one (the UK) has its government and is governed and independent and can choose its own path in this world and the rest can't. Using the term nationalism as an insult or as a derogatory term is just plain stupid and hypocritical. It is also stereotyping people into pre-conceived ideas such as Scots (with Scotland flag painted on their faces screaming 'Freedom') which is very far from the truth.

Nationalism does not exist in everyone, such an absurd comment. Unionism is not nationalism either, thinking that Scotland would be better off as part of said Union does not make one a Unionist, it's akin to saying that all remain voters believe the EU should become a Federal republic for instance. It's just a comment you make to try and justify your own views which on the whole consist of 'Westminster bad', those who mock Scottish nationalism tend to also mock all forms of nationalism, how do you not understand that?

I agree with some of this post, but the part in bold simply isn't true. Many that mock Scottish nationalism are indeed English nationalists who deride Scotland for basically being a worse country.


But yes, saying that nationalism exists in everyone is asinine. I think that, financially at least, Scotland is more than likely to be far better off in the union. However, I acknowledge that, politically, they are so far apart from England and Brexit has shown just how little influence they have over their own nation. So I understand the bitterness. Does that make me a "unionist"? Of course not.

Pr4wn wrote:

I agree with some of this post, but the part in bold simply isn't true. Many that mock Scottish nationalism are indeed English nationalists who deride Scotland for basically being a worse country.

There will of course be an element of that but I can't imagine English nationalists caring enough about anyone else to even give it a second thought.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

McLaren wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:I do love how unionist roll out the term nationalist or nationalism painting it as something poisonous - it really is hypocrisy of the highest order. Unionists are exactly the same - and worse if you ask me. The 'Rule Brittania' brigade are fierce BritNats. There is no two ways about it. In their idyllic world theirs is perfectly fine and normal and the purist way to be but any other nationality that is patriotic to their country and their beliefs that it should be a self0governing nation are painted as poisonous. Real pathetic.

Are there English who are unionists in any meaningful way? People who have maintaining the union between England and Scotland as a major part of their world view or politics.

I ask, because as far as I can tell, brexit was always about English nationalism. If those voting for brexit who lived in Scotland were fooled into thinking it was about a british or UK nationalism, they were quite mistaken.

Nationalism exists in everyone - that is basically what I am saying here. If you are a unionist (whether from England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland) you actively feel affinity for the UK/Britain in the guise it is in at the moment and will passionately fight to keep it. What makes them any different from Scottish nationalists? What makes them any different from Welsh, English or Northern Irish nationalists or any other kind of nationalists. The only difference is that one (the UK) has its government and is governed and independent and can choose its own path in this world and the rest can't. Using the term nationalism as an insult or as a derogatory term is just plain stupid and hypocritical. It is also stereotyping people into pre-conceived ideas such as Scots (with Scotland flag painted on their faces screaming 'Freedom') which is very far from the truth.

I'm neither a Scottish nationalist nor a unionist. You seem to be able only to think about this issue in binary terms.

Soul Requiem wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:

I agree with some of this post, but the part in bold simply isn't true. Many that mock Scottish nationalism are indeed English nationalists who deride Scotland for basically being a worse country.

There will of course be an element of that but I can't imagine English nationalists caring enough about anyone else to even give it a second thought.

If Brexit has taught us anything, it's that English nationalists loving taunting their political opponents.

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Nationalism exists in everyone - that is basically what I am saying here. If you are a unionist (whether from England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland) you actively feel affinity for the UK/Britain in the guise it is in at the moment and will passionately fight to keep it. What makes them any different from Scottish nationalists? What makes them any different from Welsh, English or Northern Irish nationalists or any other kind of nationalists. The only difference is that one (the UK) has its government and is governed and independent and can choose its own path in this world and the rest can't. Using the term nationalism as an insult or as a derogatory term is just plain stupid and hypocritical. It is also stereotyping people into pre-conceived ideas such as Scots (with Scotland flag painted on their faces screaming 'Freedom') which is very far from the truth.

Not sure how you know that nationalism exists in everyone. But maybe you can expand on that?


I don't really approve of nationalism of any sort, but if we are being kind, at the moment English and Scottish nationalists do seem to have slightly different ideas about what their nation should look like. The English nationalists/brexiteers think they have lost power through immigration, multiculturalism, EU legislation and progressive politics, while the Scottish nationalists for the most part think that getting control back from westminster could result in a more progressive country. But lets not get too generous as there are plenty of English haters and old School nationalists within the Scottish indy movement.


I would be described as a "unionist" because I don't support the breaking up of countries into smaller more parochial units, but that is not because I greatly value the interests of the UK or its sovereignty, but because I think nations working as closely as possible together is desirable. EU anyone? Given my reasons for preferring Scotland to stay as part of the UK I don't think I would fit the definition of a UK nationalist.

The "tariff free trade deal is really showing what its worth at the moment. My workplace has found that our exports to the EU are likely to be hit with tariffs due to the country of origin rules - essentially our products are made up of various components that we import.

The "assembly" that we do for a large amount of our products is not a "substantial change", which means they are not considered to be a UK produced good under the terms of the trade deal. As a result, the country of origin rules are applied, and despite the fact the vast majority of our inputs come from the EU, the terms of the deal say that they do not look through to our suppliers to confirm whether the country of origin is in the EU or not - all are considered "third countries", and tariffs are applied

For the company, its a short term problem as we have a EU production facility due to go live which will service the EU directly and reduce our costs. Until then we'll source whatever inputs we can from the UK so they aren't affected by origin rules.

For the poor sods who work in the UK production side of the business, you can probably guess what is likely to happen at some point this year

Our goods are sitting waiting for the paperwork to be completed so they can be exported, but for companies who sell perishable goods this isn't an option. I've spoken to friends across different industries who are all dealing with similar problems, and the consultancy firms / customs brokers are completely overwhelmed so haven't been able to provide adequate support. Aren't we lucky that the government took it down to the last week in December!

McLaren wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Nationalism exists in everyone - that is basically what I am saying here. If you are a unionist (whether from England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland) you actively feel affinity for the UK/Britain in the guise it is in at the moment and will passionately fight to keep it. What makes them any different from Scottish nationalists? What makes them any different from Welsh, English or Northern Irish nationalists or any other kind of nationalists. The only difference is that one (the UK) has its government and is governed and independent and can choose its own path in this world and the rest can't. Using the term nationalism as an insult or as a derogatory term is just plain stupid and hypocritical. It is also stereotyping people into pre-conceived ideas such as Scots (with Scotland flag painted on their faces screaming 'Freedom') which is very far from the truth.

Not sure how you know that nationalism exists in everyone. But maybe you can expand on that?


I don't really approve of nationalism of any sort, but if we are being kind, at the moment English and Scottish nationalists do seem to have slightly different ideas about what their nation should look like. The English nationalists/brexiteers think they have lost power through immigration, multiculturalism, EU legislation and progressive politics, while the Scottish nationalists for the most part think that getting control back from westminster could result in a more progressive country. But lets not get too generous as there are plenty of English haters and old School nationalists within the Scottish indy movement.


I would be described as a "unionist" because I don't support the breaking up of countries into smaller more parochial units, but that is not because I greatly value the interests of the UK or its sovereignty, but because I think nations working as closely as possible together is desirable. EU anyone? Given my reasons for preferring Scotland to stay as part of the UK I don't think I would fit the definition of a UK nationalist.

Nationalism is more prominent than you may think and of course in people to differing degrees and shines through especially in the competitive form. When the Olympics are on or things like Eurovision and other such international competitions/contests then nationalism shines through. People will invariably get behind those flying the UJ or English, Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish in the Commonwealth Games. They'll root for one athlete over another because of the nationality they represent.

Countries working closely together as you prefer is just not possible when there are such vast differences in what those countries politically believe in. It is akin to being in an abusive marriage or married to a partner with major differences that will lead to bad atmosphere and arguments. That is where Scotland is at with Westminster and where many voters back this. Just look at how popular the SNP have been in Scotland now for a number of years for evidence of that. Working together needs to be done as a unit to each of the units best interests and for those disenchanted Scots that just is not happening. Scots who crave independence are those that want to shape their own destiny and being locked into a union certainly does not allow that as Brexit demonstrates perfectly. There are haters everywhere in this world in all shapes and forms in all political backgrounds or in every day life - Scotland is no different in that respect to the rest of the world.

And as for your last point on nations working closely as possible together being your preference is all well and good but as I said before, for that to happen you need compatible units both with the same beliefs and political interests. That is just not the case in the UK at present as Brexit examplifies.

I think there's some serious conflation of patriotism and nationalism going on here.

Remember that patriotism is love and support for your nation. Nationalism is support for your nation's interests to the detriment or exclusion of other nations.

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Nationalism is more prominent than you may think and of course in people to differing degrees and shines through especially in the competitive form. When the Olympics are on or things like Eurovision and other such international competitions/contests then nationalism shines through. People will invariably get behind those flying the UJ or English, Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish in the Commonwealth Games. They'll root for one athlete over another because of the nationality they represent.

As Pr4wn has touched upon that isn't nationalism.

To compare wanting independence from a centuries-old union to supporting athletes at the Olympics is rather ridiculous.

Pr4wn wrote:I think there's some serious conflation of patriotism and nationalism going on here.

Remember that patriotism is love and support for your nation. Nationalism is support for your nation's interests to the detriment or exclusion of other nations.

Or perhaps some are confusing patriotism as nationalism per chance? After all, it would seem that patriotism is fine whereas nationalism is not. And actually Scottish Nationalism is actually fighting to be involved in the bigger EU family so is certainly not to the exclusion of other nations.

The right wing Brit nat anti-Welsh brigade (in Wales) are starting to brick it

Great stuff

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:I think there's some serious conflation of patriotism and nationalism going on here.

Remember that patriotism is love and support for your nation. Nationalism is support for your nation's interests to the detriment or exclusion of other nations.

Or perhaps some are confusing patriotism as nationalism per chance? After all, it would seem that patriotism is fine whereas nationalism is not. And actually Scottish Nationalism is actually fighting to be involved in the bigger EU family so is certainly not to the exclusion of other nations.

This is disingenuous. Primarily, Scottish nationalism is fighting to be an independent country. You know that.

Pr4wn wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:I think there's some serious conflation of patriotism and nationalism going on here.

Remember that patriotism is love and support for your nation. Nationalism is support for your nation's interests to the detriment or exclusion of other nations.

Or perhaps some are confusing patriotism as nationalism per chance? After all, it would seem that patriotism is fine whereas nationalism is not. And actually Scottish Nationalism is actually fighting to be involved in the bigger EU family so is certainly not to the exclusion of other nations.

This is disingenuous. Primarily, Scottish nationalism is fighting to be an independent country. You know that.

Can you stop writing posts I agree with, it's confusing.

Wanting Scottish independence or even Brexit is in itself not a nationalistic viewpoint but the reasons why someone wants it can be. Craig, your reasoning behind wanting independence has nothing to do with the EU and you are merely transposing the views of the party (SNP) itself on to yourself.

CaledonianCraig

There is probably a model for Scottish independence that I could be persuaded to vote for. I would require day one sign up to the EU, some sign that post independence politics in Scotland would not involve the SNP (Why would you need a nationalist party at that point?), and some indication that post independent politics would actually be progressive and not just the petty squabbles of Holyrood.

Pr4wn wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:I think there's some serious conflation of patriotism and nationalism going on here.

Remember that patriotism is love and support for your nation. Nationalism is support for your nation's interests to the detriment or exclusion of other nations.

Or perhaps some are confusing patriotism as nationalism per chance? After all, it would seem that patriotism is fine whereas nationalism is not. And actually Scottish Nationalism is actually fighting to be involved in the bigger EU family so is certainly not to the exclusion of other nations.

This is disingenuous. Primarily, Scottish nationalism is fighting to be an independent country. You know that.

And this is my suspicion too Prawn. It is why even thought I said above there is a model for Scottish independence I could vote for, I have doubts that I could be convinced that those seeking independence aren't just garden variety nationalists.



I guess what I am saying is that although I find nationalism to be a lowest common denominator world view I might be willing to sacrifice my "morals" if there really was the prospect of Scotland becoming a progressive modern nation rather than being attached to Trumpton light.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

McLaren wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Nationalism exists in everyone - that is basically what I am saying here. If you are a unionist (whether from England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland) you actively feel affinity for the UK/Britain in the guise it is in at the moment and will passionately fight to keep it. What makes them any different from Scottish nationalists? What makes them any different from Welsh, English or Northern Irish nationalists or any other kind of nationalists. The only difference is that one (the UK) has its government and is governed and independent and can choose its own path in this world and the rest can't. Using the term nationalism as an insult or as a derogatory term is just plain stupid and hypocritical. It is also stereotyping people into pre-conceived ideas such as Scots (with Scotland flag painted on their faces screaming 'Freedom') which is very far from the truth.

Not sure how you know that nationalism exists in everyone. But maybe you can expand on that?


I don't really approve of nationalism of any sort, but if we are being kind, at the moment English and Scottish nationalists do seem to have slightly different ideas about what their nation should look like. The English nationalists/brexiteers think they have lost power through immigration, multiculturalism, EU legislation and progressive politics, while the Scottish nationalists for the most part think that getting control back from westminster could result in a more progressive country. But lets not get too generous as there are plenty of English haters and old School nationalists within the Scottish indy movement.


I would be described as a "unionist" because I don't support the breaking up of countries into smaller more parochial units, but that is not because I greatly value the interests of the UK or its sovereignty, but because I think nations working as closely as possible together is desirable. EU anyone? Given my reasons for preferring Scotland to stay as part of the UK I don't think I would fit the definition of a UK nationalist.

Nationalism is more prominent than you may think and of course in people to differing degrees and shines through especially in the competitive form. When the Olympics are on or things like Eurovision and other such international competitions/contests then nationalism shines through. People will invariably get behind those flying the UJ or English, Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish in the Commonwealth Games. They'll root for one athlete over another because of the nationality they represent.

Countries working closely together as you prefer is just not possible when there are such vast differences in what those countries politically believe in. It is akin to being in an abusive marriage or married to a partner with major differences that will lead to bad atmosphere and arguments. That is where Scotland is at with Westminster and where many voters back this. Just look at how popular the SNP have been in Scotland now for a number of years for evidence of that. Working together needs to be done as a unit to each of the units best interests and for those disenchanted Scots that just is not happening. Scots who crave independence are those that want to shape their own destiny and being locked into a union certainly does not allow that as Brexit demonstrates perfectly. There are haters everywhere in this world in all shapes and forms in all political backgrounds or in every day life - Scotland is no different in that respect to the rest of the world.

And as for your last point on nations working closely as possible together being your preference is all well and good but as I said before, for that to happen you need compatible units both with the same beliefs and political interests. That is just not the case in the UK at present as Brexit examplifies.

The sporting analogy is wrong though, some of it comes down to who you support and of course you tend to pick those that are closer to you OR on the team you support

Have the NHS got the £700m it was promised by this time yet?

Samo wrote:Have the NHS got the £700m it was promised by this time yet?

The NHS is going to be entitled to ask for some serious backpay at some point I would think.

Samo wrote:Have the NHS got the £700m it was promised by this time yet?

I thought they'd had it all in claps

Samo wrote:Have the NHS got the £700m it was promised by this time yet?

I believe its due immediately after the delivery of the world beating Test and Trace system is complete

MonkeyMan wrote:
The right wing Brit nat anti-Welsh brigade (in Wales) are starting to brick it

Great stuff

There's loads of anti-devolution stuff around at the moment. 'Think tanks' like the Centre for Welsh Studies are suddenly more prominent. There's money flowing into the movement from somewhere.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

MonkeyMan wrote:
The right wing Brit nat anti-Welsh brigade (in Wales) are starting to brick it

Great stuff

There's loads of anti-devolution stuff around at the moment. 'Think tanks' like the Centre for Welsh Studies are suddenly more prominent. There's money flowing into the movement from somewhere.

Waste of money if you ask me. Wales and Scotland will be independent in the foreseeable future, as will a re-united Ireland. Can't happen soon enough.

Maybe someone will take all this seriously one day. You'd think there might be some moves to look at having some form of constitutional convention or something. Home rule? A federated UK? Probably too late now.

Still, once we have a Wales, Scotland and England, together w/ a unified Ireland, maybe we can all grow up and be mature, contented Nations? Nah.

navyblueshorts wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

MonkeyMan wrote:
The right wing Brit nat anti-Welsh brigade (in Wales) are starting to brick it

Great stuff

There's loads of anti-devolution stuff around at the moment. 'Think tanks' like the Centre for Welsh Studies are suddenly more prominent. There's money flowing into the movement from somewhere.

Waste of money if you ask me. Wales and Scotland will be independent in the foreseeable future, as will a re-united Ireland. Can't happen soon enough.

Maybe someone will take all this seriously one day. You'd think there might be some moves to look at having some form of constitutional convention or something. Home rule? A federated UK? Probably too late now.

Still, once we have a Wales, Scotland and England, together w/ a unified Ireland, maybe we can all grow up and be mature, contented Nations? Nah.

I had not thought of a federation until I saw someone talking about it on Twitter, but it does make a lot of sense.

As sensible as a federated UK would be, I don't think the architects of Brexit planned to 'take back control' only to give it away.

Ultimately, it has to be a matter of choice. I hope most people can agree with that.

navyblueshorts wrote:Wales and Scotland will be independent in the foreseeable future, as will a re-united Ireland. Can't happen soon enough.

Two questions.

Why are you so sure those countries will become independent? And why do you say it can't happen soon enough?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:As sensible as a federated UK would be, I don't think the architects of Brexit planned to 'take back control' only to give it away.

Ultimately, it has to be a matter of choice. I hope most people can agree with that.

Yep. There are better places to be than where we are right now (including having PR), but there is also no apparent path to get there.

McLaren wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:Wales and Scotland will be independent in the foreseeable future, as will a re-united Ireland. Can't happen soon enough.

Two questions.

Why are you so sure those countries will become independent? And why do you say it can't happen soon enough?

I think it's inevitable. You can't grant them devolved powers and them not think "Hmm. Quite like this bit of power and deciding for ourselves. Why can't we have more? Think we should ask/demand it.". The inevitable end of that road is independence.

Why can't I wait for it to happen? While I totally agree w/ your recent post re. the stupidity of less integration etc, I am fed up to the back teeth of the various nationalist whining etc etc. It's just a vicious circle, creating more and more dislike between the people of the UK and Great Britain. I'd rather it ended and it's clear people aren't going to grow up. Let each go it alone and own it.

lostinwales wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:As sensible as a federated UK would be, I don't think the architects of Brexit planned to 'take back control' only to give it away.

Ultimately, it has to be a matter of choice. I hope most people can agree with that.

Yep. There are better places to be than where we are right now (including having PR), but there is also no apparent path to get there.

There's definitely an easy route to a form of PR, but none of the power-hungry politicians want to advocate for it. Our system is pathetic, divisive, disenfranchises far too many and is out of date. Oh, and it encourages the blowhard, crowd pleasing charlatans of the political world as well.

navyblueshorts wrote:

McLaren wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:Wales and Scotland will be independent in the foreseeable future, as will a re-united Ireland. Can't happen soon enough.

Two questions.

Why are you so sure those countries will become independent? And why do you say it can't happen soon enough?

I think it's inevitable. You can't grant them devolved powers and them not think "Hmm. Quite like this bit of power and deciding for ourselves. Why can't we have more? Think we should ask/demand it.". The inevitable end of that road is independence.

Why can't I wait for it to happen? While I totally agree w/ your recent post re. the stupidity of less integration etc, I am fed up to the back teeth of the various nationalist whining etc etc. It's just a vicious circle, creating more and more dislike between the people of the UK and Great Britain. I'd rather it ended and it's clear people aren't going to grow up. Let each go it alone and own it.

The English nationalists have "got what they want" with Brexit. I just can't see that quieting them in terms of the classic right wing/nationalist issues that fuel them. Immigration, relationship with foreign trading partners, human rights laws, international aid are likely to continue to be areas that displease English nationalists.

Would those who want Scottish, Welsh or NI independence be anymore likely to settle with just being broken away from the UK? As I said above the claim from many Scottish nationalists is that they want a more progressive country but I find that quite hard to believe.

The nationalists don't care if you stay or go as long as England is still there

I only know a handful of people who are anti-devolution in Wales. I know far more people now who are either pro independence or of the attitude that independence down the line is possible as long it is done right

Thing is in Wales is that it would be hard to concentrate all that nationalism/semi nationalism to one vote (Plaid Cymru) as a lot of people I know who are interested in independence or further devolution are actually Labour voters

I always just assumed that Scotland was either SNP for independence or Labour for the Union. The Welsh vote is a lot more split it seems between Plaid (pro independence), Labour (50/50) and Conservative (Welsh people who love Boris and hate Wales and its Senedd)

McLaren wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

McLaren wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:Wales and Scotland will be independent in the foreseeable future, as will a re-united Ireland. Can't happen soon enough.

Two questions.

Why are you so sure those countries will become independent? And why do you say it can't happen soon enough?

I think it's inevitable. You can't grant them devolved powers and them not think "Hmm. Quite like this bit of power and deciding for ourselves. Why can't we have more? Think we should ask/demand it.". The inevitable end of that road is independence.

Why can't I wait for it to happen? While I totally agree w/ your recent post re. the stupidity of less integration etc, I am fed up to the back teeth of the various nationalist whining etc etc. It's just a vicious circle, creating more and more dislike between the people of the UK and Great Britain. I'd rather it ended and it's clear people aren't going to grow up. Let each go it alone and own it.

The English nationalists have "got what they want" with Brexit. I just can't see that quieting them in terms of the classic right wing/nationalist issues that fuel them. Immigration, relationship with foreign trading partners, human rights laws, international aid are likely to continue to be areas that displease English nationalists.

Would those who want Scottish, Welsh or NI independence be anymore likely to settle with just being broken away from the UK? As I said above the claim from many Scottish nationalists is that they want a more progressive country but I find that quite hard to believe.

I don't think you read so-called English nationalism correctly, especially if you assume that's what fuelled Brexit in its entirety. Sure, there were elements of xenophobia and for some, that was the priority. I think a lot more, particularly out of London and SE, was down to decades of areas being run down. No (or few) jobs for non-University educated people, and I'm not denigrating them by saying that. The manufacturing, ship building, mining etc etc has just been run down and never really replaced. I think there was lot of protest voting due to 30-40 years of industrial decline. It's not even like the forces are a big thing any more either.

As for Scottish and Welsh nationalism (and English), I wouldn't trust those driving for it as far as I can throw them. They're politicians and I haven't seen any who're are remotely trustworthy/altruistic for decades. Suspect they would just want to go down in history as being the one(s) who (re?)-gained Scottish/Welsh independence. I think the Irish are probably the most likely to be on a strong footing in the not too distance future. They've lived w/ the IRA/UDF etc and, in many cases, are far more mature I think. It might p!ss the Unionists off royally (especially the hard liners), but I wouldn't be surprised if a reunited Ireland went from strength to strength quite quickly if it came about.

For me, as I said, I just want it over. I'm fed up of all the petty minded whining all the time. I'd rather we cut everyone loose and got on with it. If they can't see the wood for the trees and want to cut their noses off, be my guest and naff off.

[quote="McLaren"][quote="navyblueshorts"]

McLaren wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:Wales and Scotland will be independent in the foreseeable future, as will a re-united Ireland. Can't happen soon enough.

Would those who want Scottish, Welsh or NI independence be anymore likely to settle with just being broken away from the UK? As I said above the claim from many Scottish nationalists is that they want a more progressive country but I find that quite hard to believe.

Yes more progressive. Brexit means many doctors and nurses being forced out of the country due to regulations and other changes. Also a number of multi-national people do jobs that too many Brits (yes and that includes Scots) see as work below them sadly. Scotland backed remaining in the EU and I see that as progressive and helps keep those from other nations doing jobs that others do not want.

Doctors and nurses are being forced out of the country?

navyblueshorts wrote:

McLaren wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

McLaren wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:Wales and Scotland will be independent in the foreseeable future, as will a re-united Ireland. Can't happen soon enough.

Two questions.

Why are you so sure those countries will become independent? And why do you say it can't happen soon enough?

I think it's inevitable. You can't grant them devolved powers and them not think "Hmm. Quite like this bit of power and deciding for ourselves. Why can't we have more? Think we should ask/demand it.". The inevitable end of that road is independence.

Why can't I wait for it to happen? While I totally agree w/ your recent post re. the stupidity of less integration etc, I am fed up to the back teeth of the various nationalist whining etc etc. It's just a vicious circle, creating more and more dislike between the people of the UK and Great Britain. I'd rather it ended and it's clear people aren't going to grow up. Let each go it alone and own it.

The English nationalists have "got what they want" with Brexit. I just can't see that quieting them in terms of the classic right wing/nationalist issues that fuel them. Immigration, relationship with foreign trading partners, human rights laws, international aid are likely to continue to be areas that displease English nationalists.

Would those who want Scottish, Welsh or NI independence be anymore likely to settle with just being broken away from the UK? As I said above the claim from many Scottish nationalists is that they want a more progressive country but I find that quite hard to believe.

I don't think you read so-called English nationalism correctly, especially if you assume that's what fuelled Brexit in its entirety. Sure, there were elements of xenophobia and for some, that was the priority. I think a lot more, particularly out of London and SE, was down to decades of areas being run down. No (or few) jobs for non-University educated people, and I'm not denigrating them by saying that. The manufacturing, ship building, mining etc etc has just been run down and never really replaced. I think there was lot of protest voting due to 30-40 years of industrial decline. It's not even like the forces are a big thing any more either.

As for Scottish and Welsh nationalism (and English), I wouldn't trust those driving for it as far as I can throw them. They're politicians and I haven't seen any who're are remotely trustworthy/altruistic for decades. Suspect they would just want to go down in history as being the one(s) who (re?)-gained Scottish/Welsh independence. I think the Irish are probably the most likely to be on a strong footing in the not too distance future. They've lived w/ the IRA/UDF etc and, in many cases, are far more mature I think. It might p!ss the Unionists off royally (especially the hard liners), but I wouldn't be surprised if a reunited Ireland went from strength to strength quite quickly if it came about.

For me, as I said, I just want it over. I'm fed up of all the petty minded whining all the time. I'd rather we cut everyone loose and got on with it. If they can't see the wood for the trees and want to cut their noses off, be my guest and naff off.

You start with the reasoning of what you think English nationalism is such as closing down of industries not being replaced and you seem to not have a problem with that at all. Yet Scottish nationalism is repugnant to you. Well sunshine do you know what helped fuel that? Exactly what you say you understand about English nationalism. Thatcher's Tories in the 1980s closed down Scottish shipyards, coal mines and later steelyards and that brought a lot of people on board the independence bandwagon and that has grown due to other mitigating factors since then. So for you English nationalism you fully understand the cut of their gib for their stance on Brexit yet Scottish nationalism on the same subject are odious to you. Sheer hypocrisy.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

McLaren wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

McLaren wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:Wales and Scotland will be independent in the foreseeable future, as will a re-united Ireland. Can't happen soon enough.

Two questions.

Why are you so sure those countries will become independent? And why do you say it can't happen soon enough?

I think it's inevitable. You can't grant them devolved powers and them not think "Hmm. Quite like this bit of power and deciding for ourselves. Why can't we have more? Think we should ask/demand it.". The inevitable end of that road is independence.

Why can't I wait for it to happen? While I totally agree w/ your recent post re. the stupidity of less integration etc, I am fed up to the back teeth of the various nationalist whining etc etc. It's just a vicious circle, creating more and more dislike between the people of the UK and Great Britain. I'd rather it ended and it's clear people aren't going to grow up. Let each go it alone and own it.

The English nationalists have "got what they want" with Brexit. I just can't see that quieting them in terms of the classic right wing/nationalist issues that fuel them. Immigration, relationship with foreign trading partners, human rights laws, international aid are likely to continue to be areas that displease English nationalists.

Would those who want Scottish, Welsh or NI independence be anymore likely to settle with just being broken away from the UK? As I said above the claim from many Scottish nationalists is that they want a more progressive country but I find that quite hard to believe.

I don't think you read so-called English nationalism correctly, especially if you assume that's what fuelled Brexit in its entirety. Sure, there were elements of xenophobia and for some, that was the priority. I think a lot more, particularly out of London and SE, was down to decades of areas being run down. No (or few) jobs for non-University educated people, and I'm not denigrating them by saying that. The manufacturing, ship building, mining etc etc has just been run down and never really replaced. I think there was lot of protest voting due to 30-40 years of industrial decline. It's not even like the forces are a big thing any more either.

As for Scottish and Welsh nationalism (and English), I wouldn't trust those driving for it as far as I can throw them. They're politicians and I haven't seen any who're are remotely trustworthy/altruistic for decades. Suspect they would just want to go down in history as being the one(s) who (re?)-gained Scottish/Welsh independence. I think the Irish are probably the most likely to be on a strong footing in the not too distance future. They've lived w/ the IRA/UDF etc and, in many cases, are far more mature I think. It might p!ss the Unionists off royally (especially the hard liners), but I wouldn't be surprised if a reunited Ireland went from strength to strength quite quickly if it came about.

For me, as I said, I just want it over. I'm fed up of all the petty minded whining all the time. I'd rather we cut everyone loose and got on with it. If they can't see the wood for the trees and want to cut their noses off, be my guest and naff off.

You start with the reasoning of what you think English nationalism is such as closing down of industries not being replaced and you seem to not have a problem with that at all. Yet Scottish nationalism is repugnant to you. Well sunshine do you know what helped fuel that? Exactly what you say you understand about English nationalism. Thatcher's Tories in the 1980s closed down Scottish shipyards, coal mines and later steelyards and that brought a lot of people on board the independence bandwagon and that has grown due to other mitigating factors since then. So for you English nationalism you fully understand the cut of their gib for their stance on Brexit yet Scottish nationalism on the same subject are odious to you. Sheer hypocrisy.

Good grief. Why am I not surprised by your reading of what I wrote and your lack of comprehension? I in no way equated English nationalism to industrial closure and your extrapolation that I both did, and deny Scots the same right, is all your own wrongheaded work. I said that such, over years, was the cause of, in my view, a large protest vote for Brexit. I think many of those that voted actually just wanted something 'different' to the norm of finance/service industry being seen as the norm, property prices making a home out of reach for so many etc etc. A bloody nose for the so-called Establishment elite, if you will.
Did I say I agreed w/ Brexit? No, I ****ing didn't. I think it's pathetic, just as I think the drive for Scottish independence is pathetic. The reasons for both are childish and nationalistic (in the worst sense), but I think Scottish nationalism is worse in the sense that I think (and I could be wrong) that there's a majority hatred for the English as a driving force in that, whereas I think that although there was/is a level of English hatred for 'foreigners' that fed into Brexit, I don't think that was the majority reason for the outcome of the Brexit referendum. One day (maybe), we'll realise we no longer have an Empire.

I'm aware of the loss of those Scottish industries, and Thatcher's so-called role in it, although unlike you, I understand that it wasn't all down to the Milk Snatcher. You just narrowly put the blame entirely there because that suits your narrative. I guess you think that the financial industry in Scotland (and its role in the 2008 crash) was the fault of Westminster as well? Perhaps bailing out RBS to the tune of almost £300 billion was Westminster doing Scotland down?
Coal in the UK was dying, steel production was too expensive cf. other global producers, ship building in Rosyth or the Clyde etc was being undercut by other global players supplying cheaper labour. Etc. Your problem is you blame England and/or Westminster for all of these sort of issues in Scotland. Xenophobia and nationalism - not a nice look, but not entirely surprising.

As I said, the sooner you and yours are gone, the better. No, that's not anything to do w/ any so-called English nationalism on my part - I just can't stand backward-looking, small-minded nationalists whining about how everything wrong in their World is because of those evil doers in Westminster. The sooner you get cut loose, so you can't blame anyone but yourself, the sooner you can grow up. I'm sure you'll be fine.

To be fair, the most mature option ends with independence. Now whether politics (and the media, worth adding) can do anything fundamentally mature and reasonable is another matter.