A bit of perspective

First topic message reminder :

All I am seeing on twitter is England fans going mad at Farrell, Youngs, Eddie Jones, Vunipola et cetera.

I have to say I am surprised. England and Jones have huge amounts of credit in the bank and I think English fans need a bit of perspective on where we are as a team.

I know this might sound controversial but England are miles ahead of any other team in Europe eventhough Scotland beat them last week. Jones came in to England with a remit to do what Stuart Lancaster couldn't which was to make England world champions after it went horribly wrong on home soil. Jones started off with back to back six nations wins and then found his side struggled to manage with Lions recovery and the added pressure of teams knowing what was coming and preparing gameplans specifically for England, like Scotland did in 2018. But he turned it around after a losing streak and brought in fresh blood maybe a little fortuitously (although I think everyone suspected Haskell and Robshaw would struggle to stay the course) but nevertheless England showed what they could do in the 18/19 season against South Africa, New Zealand and Ireland and kept enough powder dry for Japan the season after. We all know what happened there and falling at the final hurdle means there is only one thing left to do for Eddie Jones and that is WIN the cup.

So now where are England? Apparently they're in their worst ever position and are a disgrace? What?1?!

England have won both tournaments available to them after the 2019 world cup and yes they were a little bit fortunate but they could add a third this year considering how results have gone as long as they beat the French. All of that without even trying to change anything dramatic since 2018/19? If you play badly and win that's a sign of a good team. I don't mean to put this the wrong way but if the six nations is the 'bread and butter' of rugby then continuing to worry too much about the bread and butter means they will be too full to deal with off the main course when it arrives in 2023. No other coach has as much credit in the bank as he does.

Jones says England want to be the best team ever but I think its obvious HE wants to be the best England coach ever. He wants to have what Clive Woodward has and to beat his record as well which means he only needs one more title but not if it means sacrificing the world cup. The world cup is what matters. The difference between winning a world cup is huge in terms of prestige and standing and for his legacy. It's the only thing Eddie has left to do with England and he had 4 years to do it after that night in Japan.

So I think some perspective is needed. If the Lions goes ahead this year England will lose maybe 20 players or more to the tour and that means injuries. He already say that two thirds of the Japan squad would not make it to France. Youngs will probably not tour. Look at the way Jamie George, Curry, and Underhill played despite Hartley, Haskell, and Robshaw playing for so long under Eddie.

I just think the abuse needs to stop. England are not trying to win the six nations with everything theyve got if anything Jones is taking a risk that the Lions tour will go ahead this year by just keeping things ticking over. Everyone ELSE needs to try to show what their level is because Wales won it 2 years ago and Ireland 3 years ago but they're different teams with different coaches. No one else has shown their standard so every other team is in a different boat to England who went with the continuity option. Pivac is desperate for wins that's why Lydiate has come back. France are building to a home world cup and do not want to experience what England did in 2015 so they need to show their level and not just potential. Farrell has been backed by Ireland and needs to repay them and that starts with the six nations. Scotland need to finally become competitive after 6 years of showing promising signs. Italy need to just win to get the media off their back.

No one else is in England's position. No one else has 'win the world cup' as their next step. England and Eddie Jones do. Yes they cannot stand still but given what happened with the Lions last time out and how England prepared in house and built a gameplan by playing one 'tactic' at a time in certain matches, like they are now, before putting it altogether against a NZ or SA, I just think a bit of perspective is need.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that in general rugby fans from Wales and Scotland would like to beat England more than any other country.
It is therefor their biggest games of the year and adds to the spice and competitiveness of the 6Ns.
Certainly Wales raise their game against the English as can be seen with their 6Ns record compared to their results eg. against NZ & Australia.

Could it be that England raise their game for matches against Scotland and Wales? Two sides of the coin

The Stereophonics knew which side of their bread was buttered.

https://youtu.be/skApHVxkgAo

I knew someone would bring this up, I just knew it.

This was done at a time when England were the dominant team in the NH, towards the end of the last millennium. They have been anything but since.

Best part of two decades, you have been at around the same level as the rest of us.

Ok back to 1977 when Wales were the dominant team. Phil Bennett

We were playing England [1977]. In that situation, a game every Welshman is desperate to win, what do you say to JPR [Williams], JJ [Williams], Steve Fenwick, Terry Cobner and the Pontypool front row that’s any different? Off the cuff I began this rant: ‘Look at what these buggers have done to Wales. They’ve taken our coal, our water, our steel. They buy our houses and only live in them for two weeks of every year. We’ve been controlled, exploited, raped and punished by the English and that’s who you’re playing today, boys.’ I was pretty chuffed, although wasn’t sure Gareth had been taking it in. ‘And Gar,’ I said, ‘they’ve taken our rivers, too.’ He’s a great fisherman and he said: ‘What? The illegitimate childen!’”

Could he get away with that now? Probably not. Indeed when Joe Marler was fined and banned for calling Wales’ Samson Lee “Gypsy boy” another Englishman, Jeff Probyn, suggested there ought to be retrospective punishment for Bennett. “He wanted me to be stripped of my OBE and kicked out of the World Hall of Fame. I didn’t mean for my remarks to be taken personally by the England team we played. I had a fine drink with all of them after the match. Two of my best pals from the Lions tours are Peter Wheeler and Fran Cotton. I phoned Fran after this blew up and he said: ‘Don’t worry, Phil, everyone hates England. What do you think the Scots have said about us down the years?’!”

This to me sums it up nicely.

I'm sure we can find things said about other teams when we were about to play them as well.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Big games come down to personal circumstance a lot of the time. Warburton obviously has close family ties and used to support England (sat in is shirt watching the 03 final). add that to the ability of both teams to pick up the title at the end, adds a bit of spice.

I supported England in that game as well, I wanted a winner from the 6N. That does not make the England game the most important for me.

Literally saying that's theres a big part that is personal.  For me its the England Scotland game.

Where is he saying that ?

I speak for myself.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Big games come down to personal circumstance a lot of the time. Warburton obviously has close family ties and used to support England (sat in is shirt watching the 03 final). add that to the ability of both teams to pick up the title at the end, adds a bit of spice.

I supported England in that game as well, I wanted a winner from the 6N. That does not make the England game the most important for me.

Literally saying that's theres a big part that is personal.  For me its the England Scotland game.

Where is he saying that ?

I speak for myself.

What was it you were saying to me on another thread about using hyperbole ?????

whatahitson wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:Last week Warburton as a pundit on tv when asked on welsh team selection for the England match, without prompting referred to it as the biggest welsh game of the year. I rest my case !!

Yes Wales do treat it like their biggest game BUT whoever wins this game wins the six nations.

Not necessarily.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

whatahitson wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:Last week Warburton as a pundit on tv when asked on welsh team selection for the England match, without prompting referred to it as the biggest welsh game of the year. I rest my case !!

Yes Wales do treat it like their biggest game BUT whoever wins this game wins the six nations.

Not necessarily.

Actually unlikely, unless the CV-19 issues do for France's chances

No 7&1/2 wrote:

whatahitson wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:Last week Warburton as a pundit on tv when asked on welsh team selection for the England match, without prompting referred to it as the biggest welsh game of the year. I rest my case !!

Yes Wales do treat it like their biggest game BUT whoever wins this game wins the six nations.

Not necessarily.

Scotland are going to have a default win against France which means if England beat Wales they just have to avoid losing to France and they win the six nations. If Wales beat England then they still have to play Italy and could lose to France but get a losing bonus point and still win the title.

whatahitson wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

whatahitson wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:Last week Warburton as a pundit on tv when asked on welsh team selection for the England match, without prompting referred to it as the biggest welsh game of the year. I rest my case !!

Yes Wales do treat it like their biggest game BUT whoever wins this game wins the six nations.

Not necessarily.

Scotland are going to have a default win against France which means if England beat Wales they just have to avoid losing to France and they win the six nations. If Wales beat England then they still have to play Italy and could lose to France but get a losing bonus point and still win the title.

France can postpone until the next rest weekend. It's in the rules.

whatahitson wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

whatahitson wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:Last week Warburton as a pundit on tv when asked on welsh team selection for the England match, without prompting referred to it as the biggest welsh game of the year. I rest my case !!

Yes Wales do treat it like their biggest game BUT whoever wins this game wins the six nations.

Not necessarily.

Scotland are going to have a default win against France which means if England beat Wales they just have to avoid losing to France and they win the six nations. If Wales beat England then they still have to play Italy and could lose to France but get a losing bonus point and still win the title.

Scotland are not going to have a default win. Either they play the France B team (and England know all about that) or it gets replayed in a few weeks. Even if they did there is just as big a chance of Scotland winning vs Ireland and Italy getting the trophy on points difference. A default 28-0 win would give them a significant bonus.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Big games come down to personal circumstance a lot of the time. Warburton obviously has close family ties and used to support England (sat in is shirt watching the 03 final). add that to the ability of both teams to pick up the title at the end, adds a bit of spice.

I supported England in that game as well, I wanted a winner from the 6N. That does not make the England game the most important for me.

Literally saying that's theres a big part that is personal.  For me its the England Scotland game.

Where is he saying that ?

I speak for myself.

What was it you were saying to me on another thread about using hyperbole ?????

What has that got to do with my comment?

whatahitson wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

whatahitson wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:Last week Warburton as a pundit on tv when asked on welsh team selection for the England match, without prompting referred to it as the biggest welsh game of the year. I rest my case !!

Yes Wales do treat it like their biggest game BUT whoever wins this game wins the six nations.

Not necessarily.

Scotland are going to have a default win against France which means if England beat Wales they just have to avoid losing to France and they win the six nations. If Wales beat England then they still have to play Italy and could lose to France but get a losing bonus point and still win the title.

By starting with something that isnt a certainty you kind of back up my point.

lostinwales wrote:

whatahitson wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

whatahitson wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:Last week Warburton as a pundit on tv when asked on welsh team selection for the England match, without prompting referred to it as the biggest welsh game of the year. I rest my case !!

Yes Wales do treat it like their biggest game BUT whoever wins this game wins the six nations.

Not necessarily.

Scotland are going to have a default win against France which means if England beat Wales they just have to avoid losing to France and they win the six nations. If Wales beat England then they still have to play Italy and could lose to France but get a losing bonus point and still win the title.

Scotland are not going to have a default win. Either they play the France B team (and England know all about that) or it gets replayed in a few weeks. Even if they did there is just as big a chance of Scotland winning vs Ireland and Italy getting the trophy on points difference. A default 28-0 win would give them a significant bonus.

The problem we will have though, is if Scotland have to play France during the next rest weekend, then they will not have access to their players who are based in England and France.

France will be at full strength, Scotland would be severely depleted.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

whatahitson wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

whatahitson wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:Last week Warburton as a pundit on tv when asked on welsh team selection for the England match, without prompting referred to it as the biggest welsh game of the year. I rest my case !!

Yes Wales do treat it like their biggest game BUT whoever wins this game wins the six nations.

Not necessarily.

Scotland are going to have a default win against France which means if England beat Wales they just have to avoid losing to France and they win the six nations. If Wales beat England then they still have to play Italy and could lose to France but get a losing bonus point and still win the title.

By starting with something that isnt a certainty you kind of back up my point.

Nothing is certain the Japan world cup and covid has shown that.

whatahitson wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

whatahitson wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

whatahitson wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:Last week Warburton as a pundit on tv when asked on welsh team selection for the England match, without prompting referred to it as the biggest welsh game of the year. I rest my case !!

Yes Wales do treat it like their biggest game BUT whoever wins this game wins the six nations.

Not necessarily.

Scotland are going to have a default win against France which means if England beat Wales they just have to avoid losing to France and they win the six nations. If Wales beat England then they still have to play Italy and could lose to France but get a losing bonus point and still win the title.

By starting with something that isnt a certainty you kind of back up my point.

Nothing is certain the Japan world cup and covid has shown that.

So on one hand the winner wins the 6N but on the other nothing is certain?

Bizarre comments today. What's up with people? Too giddy hearing all this is done and dusted by july?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Bizarre comments today. What's up with people? Too giddy hearing all this is done and dusted by july?

In England yes

MonkeyMan wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Bizarre comments today. What's up with people? Too giddy hearing all this is done and dusted by july?

In England yes

You know how those English can be. A bit obstreperous and surly on the outside, but in reality cute and cuddly.....

MonkeyMan wrote:

whatahitson wrote: Here are the wins if you'd like to include all six nations games since the 2015 world cup including this year so far:

England 19
Ireland 17
Wales 15
France 15
Scotland 13
Italy 0

Yes England are the best. I don't think anyone has denied this. As a humble Taffy I bow down to your superiority and much better rugby record since 2015

I have not denied that either , on balance, England remain top of the 6N teams.
Although it is interesting that the above figures have to include the 5th and 6th year old tournaments because the most recent 4 tournaments (including this one) don't even put
England on top let alone 'miles ahead'

Reference was made to records against the SH teams and how England stood up well against other nations

Well Irelands record is non too shabby - Won 3 of the last 5 against SA (that includes a 3 game tour in SA with many players missing) - last played 2017
                                                       - Won 5 of the last 7 (only 3 of those 7 games were in Ireland) - last played 2018
                                                       - Won 2 of the last 4 against New Zealand - last played 2019

England record is                               - Won 1 of the last 7 against New Zealand - last played 2019
                                                       - Won 7 of the last 7 against Australia - last played 2019
                                                       - Won 3 of the last 7 against South Africa - last played 2019

I submit Irelands record is comfortably comparable with Englands

I actually would put England top of the 6N tree.
However they are vulnerable , beatable and I am not convinced they are going in the right direction.
I think their coach has made some poor decisions, I remain unconvinced with Pivac and Farrell as International coaches also.
If England are the best 6N team it is only just.
What is completely false is the claim

'they are miles ahead' - that is utter nonsense

Over the last few years England at their best have been as good or better than any other team on the planet. They are not at that level now although they have mostly the same team.

You could say the same for Ireland only their period of dominance was a couple of years before that, and they have not been able to produce the goods at an RWC.

France's latest round of testing has come back with no positive tests.

geoff999rugby wrote: 

I submit Irelands record is comfortably comparable with Englands

Yes if you cherry pick the number of games played to try to skew it to look better than it is, like you did with six nations games where you went back to 2018 for some reason but not 2016 hmmm I wonder why. Are you Irish geoff? I think only an Irishman could pretend that Ireland who lost to Japan and then would out in the quarter final are comparable to England who beat New Zealand and got to a world cup final. England showed they are miles ahead of Ireland when the chips are down so yes you can continue to pretend it's outrageous if you like but you're wrong. If you think England are bad because they lost to Scotland how bad are Ireland losing both their games this year. Think about it you're holding on team to one standard and everyone else to another.

Results since 2015

New Zealand
England - 1 win, 1 loss
Ireland - 2 wins, 2 losses

Australia
England - 7 wins, 0 losses
Ireland - 3 wins, 1 loss

South Africa
England -3 wins, 3 losses
Ireland - 2 wins, 2 losses

Now ask yourself if Ireland beating New Zealand in 2018 is equal to England beating them in 2019 and how many of those wins were important test matches and not friendlies.

England have shown they are capable of some great performances, and won 18 games in a row. Of course so did NZ - and the same team ended both records.

Ireland may have been the team to stop New Zealands and Englands run, but its far better to be the team that achieves the winning run record than the team that wins one game.

What a load of ball aches you lot have been spouting...

The current Tournament is the 6 Nations.. Of that..



So England have won more Tournament titles, Grand Slams and Triple Crowns than other nations by a only a couple yet they have their fair share of Wooden Spoons, showing they are not a complete force and go through just as many highs and lows as any other team in the 6 Nations (Italy being an exception).

But taking the 6 Nations as a truer marker of where we are, and being a closer guide to the professional age, England have only 2 more wins than next (joint place) which are France and Wales. And out of those wins they only have 2 Grand Slams behind France on 3 and Wales on 4. They share the Triple Crown's with Ireland but only 1 ahead of Wales (which could be even this coming weekend).

So taking this into consideration as its an annual tournament and probably the best yardstick on how the big 6 European nations are performing.. I think these facts go a long way to prove, England ARE NOT, way ahead of the others.

Now if you boys have finished your discussion on who's nob is the biggest, perhaps we can concentrate on this weekends games...

MichaelT wrote:Ireland may have been the team to stop New Zealands and Englands run, but its far better to be the team that achieves the winning run record than the team that wins one game.

What a load of tosh... We all know Rugby games arent a level field, as if Ireland only ever played teams ranked 15 and below they will win... So its a pointless record.

And in fact to take your words literally.... Cyprus hold the record with 34 wins... check it out
https://www.ultimaterugby.com/news/most-consecutive-wins-in-international-rugby/477376#:~:text=Cyprus%20hold%20the%20world%20record,games%20between%20November%202008%20%2D%202014.

But I'm sure, everyone would agree, that the record is pointless, as play just one of the 6 Nations team (including Italy) and they're record would have come to a quick end.

I have no idea what your line of Ireland playing teams ranked 15 and below is meant to mean. Also its clear its tier one thats being talked about here. Thanks for your input though. Very valuable.

No9 wrote:What a load of ball aches you lot have been spouting...

The current Tournament is the 6 Nations.. Of that..



So England have won more Tournament titles, Grand Slams and Triple Crowns than other nations by a only a couple yet they have their fair share of Wooden Spoons, showing they are not a complete force and go through just as many highs and lows as any other team in the 6 Nations (Italy being an exception).

But taking the 6 Nations as a truer marker of where we are, and being a closer guide to the professional age, England have only 2 more wins than next (joint place) which are France and Wales. And out of those wins they only have 2 Grand Slams behind France on 3 and Wales on 4. They share the Triple Crown's with Ireland but only 1 ahead of Wales (which could be even this coming weekend).

So taking this into consideration as its an annual tournament and probably the best yardstick on how the big 6 European nations are performing.. I think these facts go a long way to prove, England ARE NOT, way ahead of the others.

Now if you boys have finished your discussion on who's nob is the biggest, perhaps we can concentrate on this weekends games...

Is that a nob of butter or marg?.....if it's butter can I have a bit of lime marmalade

I was toying with the idea of having a little contribution but I'm going to wash my hair instead

LordDowlais wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that in general rugby fans from Wales and Scotland would like to beat England more than any other country.
It is therefor their biggest games of the year and adds to the spice and competitiveness of the 6Ns.
Certainly Wales raise their game against the English as can be seen with their 6Ns record compared to their results eg. against NZ & Australia.

Could it be that England raise their game for matches against Scotland and Wales? Two sides of the coin

The Stereophonics knew which side of their bread was buttered.

https://youtu.be/skApHVxkgAo

I knew someone would bring this up, I just knew it.

This was done at a time when England were the dominant team in the NH, towards the end of the last millennium. They have been anything but since.

Best part of two decades, you have been at around the same level as the rest of us.

Ok back to 1977 when Wales were the dominant team. Phil Bennett

We were playing England [1977]. In that situation, a game every Welshman is desperate to win, what do you say to JPR [Williams], JJ [Williams], Steve Fenwick, Terry Cobner and the Pontypool front row that’s any different? Off the cuff I began this rant: ‘Look at what these buggers have done to Wales. They’ve taken our coal, our water, our steel. They buy our houses and only live in them for two weeks of every year. We’ve been controlled, exploited, raped and punished by the English and that’s who you’re playing today, boys.’ I was pretty chuffed, although wasn’t sure Gareth had been taking it in. ‘And Gar,’ I said, ‘they’ve taken our rivers, too.’ He’s a great fisherman and he said: ‘What? The illegitimate childen!’”

Could he get away with that now? Probably not. Indeed when Joe Marler was fined and banned for calling Wales’ Samson Lee “Gypsy boy” another Englishman, Jeff Probyn, suggested there ought to be retrospective punishment for Bennett. “He wanted me to be stripped of my OBE and kicked out of the World Hall of Fame. I didn’t mean for my remarks to be taken personally by the England team we played. I had a fine drink with all of them after the match. Two of my best pals from the Lions tours are Peter Wheeler and Fran Cotton. I phoned Fran after this blew up and he said: ‘Don’t worry, Phil, everyone hates England. What do you think the Scots have said about us down the years?’!”

This to me sums it up nicely.

I'm sure we can find things said about other teams when we were about to play them as well.

Please do.
I’m surprised at your reticence to admit that for most of your country it’s the ‘big one.’
I’ve just read a Twitter feed from World Rugby asking the question best rugby games when you can say ‘I was there’.
Unsurprisingly many Welsh posters talking about Welsh wins against England.
This is not news is it?

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that in general rugby fans from Wales and Scotland would like to beat England more than any other country.
It is therefor their biggest games of the year and adds to the spice and competitiveness of the 6Ns.
Certainly Wales raise their game against the English as can be seen with their 6Ns record compared to their results eg. against NZ & Australia.

Could it be that England raise their game for matches against Scotland and Wales? Two sides of the coin

The Stereophonics knew which side of their bread was buttered.

https://youtu.be/skApHVxkgAo

I knew someone would bring this up, I just knew it.

This was done at a time when England were the dominant team in the NH, towards the end of the last millennium. They have been anything but since.

Best part of two decades, you have been at around the same level as the rest of us.

Ok back to 1977 when Wales were the dominant team. Phil Bennett

We were playing England [1977]. In that situation, a game every Welshman is desperate to win, what do you say to JPR [Williams], JJ [Williams], Steve Fenwick, Terry Cobner and the Pontypool front row that’s any different? Off the cuff I began this rant: ‘Look at what these buggers have done to Wales. They’ve taken our coal, our water, our steel. They buy our houses and only live in them for two weeks of every year. We’ve been controlled, exploited, raped and punished by the English and that’s who you’re playing today, boys.’ I was pretty chuffed, although wasn’t sure Gareth had been taking it in. ‘And Gar,’ I said, ‘they’ve taken our rivers, too.’ He’s a great fisherman and he said: ‘What? The illegitimate childen!’”

Could he get away with that now? Probably not. Indeed when Joe Marler was fined and banned for calling Wales’ Samson Lee “Gypsy boy” another Englishman, Jeff Probyn, suggested there ought to be retrospective punishment for Bennett. “He wanted me to be stripped of my OBE and kicked out of the World Hall of Fame. I didn’t mean for my remarks to be taken personally by the England team we played. I had a fine drink with all of them after the match. Two of my best pals from the Lions tours are Peter Wheeler and Fran Cotton. I phoned Fran after this blew up and he said: ‘Don’t worry, Phil, everyone hates England. What do you think the Scots have said about us down the years?’!”

This to me sums it up nicely.

I'm sure we can find things said about other teams when we were about to play them as well.

Please do.
I’m surprised at your reticence to admit that for most of your country it’s the ‘big one.’
I’ve just read a Twitter feed from World Rugby asking the question best rugby games when you can say ‘I was there’.
Unsurprisingly many Welsh posters talking about Welsh wins against England.
This is not news is it?

Evening Trev
From a Scottish viewpoint particularly the 6Ns we look at England over the last 4 seasons the side we should beat, as we generally have performed better
2021 Eng 6 v 11 Sco (how many butchered tries, 4 was it?)
2020 Sco 6 v 13 Eng (Hogg brainfart)
2019 Eng 38 v 38 Sco (Ford 84m try)
2018 Sco 25 v 13 Eng (Huw Jones should have had 4 tries not 2)
So the reason we want to beat England over the last 6 seasons is they "seem" to have all the internal and external resources, their win at any costs mentality with Eddie Jones sometimes goes "beyond the pale" e.g. the "Saracens effect" not because they are the team to beat, however the neighbours we really want to beat are our bogey teams Ireland then Wales followed by France

In my opinion we shouldn't discuss the Eddie Jones years 2016-2020 as an achievement as it will forever be tainted with the close links to Wray and his spine of Saracen players

whatahitson wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote: 

I submit Irelands record is comfortably comparable with Englands

Yes if you cherry pick the number of games played to try to skew it to look better than it is, like you did with six nations games where you went back to 2018 for some reason but not 2016 hmmm I wonder why. Are you Irish geoff? I think only an Irishman could pretend that Ireland who lost to Japan and then would out in the quarter final are comparable to England who beat New Zealand and got to a world cup final. England showed they are miles ahead of Ireland when the chips are down so yes you can continue to pretend it's outrageous if you like but you're wrong. If you think England are bad because they lost to Scotland how bad are Ireland losing both their games this year. Think about it you're holding on team to one standard and everyone else to another.

Results since 2015

New Zealand
England - 1 win, 1 loss
Ireland - 2 wins, 2 losses

Australia
England - 7 wins, 0 losses
Ireland - 3 wins, 1 loss

South Africa
England -3 wins, 3 losses
Ireland - 2 wins, 2 losses

Now ask yourself if Ireland beating New Zealand in 2018 is equal to England beating them in 2019 and how many of those wins were important test matches and not friendlies.

Everyone and his dog beat SA in 2016/17, even Italy.

flyhalffactory wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that in general rugby fans from Wales and Scotland would like to beat England more than any other country.
It is therefor their biggest games of the year and adds to the spice and competitiveness of the 6Ns.
Certainly Wales raise their game against the English as can be seen with their 6Ns record compared to their results eg. against NZ & Australia.

Could it be that England raise their game for matches against Scotland and Wales? Two sides of the coin

The Stereophonics knew which side of their bread was buttered.

https://youtu.be/skApHVxkgAo

I knew someone would bring this up, I just knew it.

This was done at a time when England were the dominant team in the NH, towards the end of the last millennium. They have been anything but since.

Best part of two decades, you have been at around the same level as the rest of us.

Ok back to 1977 when Wales were the dominant team. Phil Bennett

We were playing England [1977]. In that situation, a game every Welshman is desperate to win, what do you say to JPR [Williams], JJ [Williams], Steve Fenwick, Terry Cobner and the Pontypool front row that’s any different? Off the cuff I began this rant: ‘Look at what these buggers have done to Wales. They’ve taken our coal, our water, our steel. They buy our houses and only live in them for two weeks of every year. We’ve been controlled, exploited, raped and punished by the English and that’s who you’re playing today, boys.’ I was pretty chuffed, although wasn’t sure Gareth had been taking it in. ‘And Gar,’ I said, ‘they’ve taken our rivers, too.’ He’s a great fisherman and he said: ‘What? The illegitimate childen!’”

Could he get away with that now? Probably not. Indeed when Joe Marler was fined and banned for calling Wales’ Samson Lee “Gypsy boy” another Englishman, Jeff Probyn, suggested there ought to be retrospective punishment for Bennett. “He wanted me to be stripped of my OBE and kicked out of the World Hall of Fame. I didn’t mean for my remarks to be taken personally by the England team we played. I had a fine drink with all of them after the match. Two of my best pals from the Lions tours are Peter Wheeler and Fran Cotton. I phoned Fran after this blew up and he said: ‘Don’t worry, Phil, everyone hates England. What do you think the Scots have said about us down the years?’!”

This to me sums it up nicely.

I'm sure we can find things said about other teams when we were about to play them as well.

Please do.
I’m surprised at your reticence to admit that for most of your country it’s the ‘big one.’
I’ve just read a Twitter feed from World Rugby asking the question best rugby games when you can say ‘I was there’.
Unsurprisingly many Welsh posters talking about Welsh wins against England.
This is not news is it?

Evening Trev
From a Scottish viewpoint particularly the 6Ns we look at England over the last 4 seasons the side we should beat, as we generally have performed better
2021 Eng 6 v 11 Sco (how many butchered tries, 4 was it?)
2020 Sco 6 v 13 Eng (Hogg brainfart)
2019 Eng 38 v 38 Sco (Ford 84m try)
2018 Sco 25 v 13 Eng (Huw Jones should have had 4 tries not 2)
So the reason we want to beat England over the last 6 seasons is they "seem" to have all the internal and external resources, their win at any costs mentality with Eddie Jones sometimes goes "beyond the pale" e.g. the "Saracens effect" not because they are the team to beat, however the neighbours we really want to beat are our bogey teams Ireland then Wales followed by France

In my opinion we shouldn't discuss the Eddie Jones years 2016-2020 as an achievement as it will forever be tainted with the close links to Wray and his spine of Saracen players

Evening Fly,
Good to see the Scots getting back into it 6 wins in 30 years is a rough record.
A trophy beyond the Calcutta Cup should be your next target.

flyhalffactory wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that in general rugby fans from Wales and Scotland would like to beat England more than any other country.
It is therefor their biggest games of the year and adds to the spice and competitiveness of the 6Ns.
Certainly Wales raise their game against the English as can be seen with their 6Ns record compared to their results eg. against NZ & Australia.

Could it be that England raise their game for matches against Scotland and Wales? Two sides of the coin

The Stereophonics knew which side of their bread was buttered.

https://youtu.be/skApHVxkgAo

I knew someone would bring this up, I just knew it.

This was done at a time when England were the dominant team in the NH, towards the end of the last millennium. They have been anything but since.

Best part of two decades, you have been at around the same level as the rest of us.

Ok back to 1977 when Wales were the dominant team. Phil Bennett

We were playing England [1977]. In that situation, a game every Welshman is desperate to win, what do you say to JPR [Williams], JJ [Williams], Steve Fenwick, Terry Cobner and the Pontypool front row that’s any different? Off the cuff I began this rant: ‘Look at what these buggers have done to Wales. They’ve taken our coal, our water, our steel. They buy our houses and only live in them for two weeks of every year. We’ve been controlled, exploited, raped and punished by the English and that’s who you’re playing today, boys.’ I was pretty chuffed, although wasn’t sure Gareth had been taking it in. ‘And Gar,’ I said, ‘they’ve taken our rivers, too.’ He’s a great fisherman and he said: ‘What? The illegitimate childen!’”

Could he get away with that now? Probably not. Indeed when Joe Marler was fined and banned for calling Wales’ Samson Lee “Gypsy boy” another Englishman, Jeff Probyn, suggested there ought to be retrospective punishment for Bennett. “He wanted me to be stripped of my OBE and kicked out of the World Hall of Fame. I didn’t mean for my remarks to be taken personally by the England team we played. I had a fine drink with all of them after the match. Two of my best pals from the Lions tours are Peter Wheeler and Fran Cotton. I phoned Fran after this blew up and he said: ‘Don’t worry, Phil, everyone hates England. What do you think the Scots have said about us down the years?’!”

This to me sums it up nicely.

I'm sure we can find things said about other teams when we were about to play them as well.

Please do.
I’m surprised at your reticence to admit that for most of your country it’s the ‘big one.’
I’ve just read a Twitter feed from World Rugby asking the question best rugby games when you can say ‘I was there’.
Unsurprisingly many Welsh posters talking about Welsh wins against England.
This is not news is it?

Evening Trev
From a Scottish viewpoint particularly the 6Ns we look at England over the last 4 seasons the side we should beat, as we generally have performed better
2021 Eng 6 v 11 Sco (how many butchered tries, 4 was it?)
2020 Sco 6 v 13 Eng (Hogg brainfart)
2019 Eng 38 v 38 Sco (Ford 84m try)
2018 Sco 25 v 13 Eng (Huw Jones should have had 4 tries not 2)
So the reason we want to beat England over the last 6 seasons is they "seem" to have all the internal and external resources, their win at any costs mentality with Eddie Jones sometimes goes "beyond the pale" e.g. the "Saracens effect" not because they are the team to beat, however the neighbours we really want to beat are our bogey teams Ireland then Wales followed by France

In my opinion we shouldn't discuss the Eddie Jones years 2016-2020 as an achievement as it will forever be tainted with the close links to Wray and his spine of Saracen players

But don't you all think it is exactly the extra p*ss and vinegar which makes the Six Nations so freaking great?  Someone, somewhere in our islands has it up the bum for someone from a different part of our blessed islands.  Most of us enjoy it, maybe egg it on, but still drink and yell together, even if we can't always understand what we are saying. Bring it on, hammer and tongs, just don't spill my overpriced beer.

MichaelT wrote:I have no idea what your line of Ireland playing teams ranked 15 and below is meant to mean. Also its clear its tier one thats being talked about here. Thanks for your input though. Very valuable.

Fair point. It was a mistake I meant England... and it was as a response to your comment in bold..

MichaelT wrote:Ireland may have been the team to stop New Zealands and Englands run, but its far better to be the team that achieves the winning run record than the team that wins one game.

I was trying to point out, that if England (or Ireland or even Wales), ie a top tier side played teams in the lower tiers (ie below IRB rank 15), then they are more likely to win, and hence should take the "unbeaten record". Hence the record is a bit of a pointless one.

However, I also pointed out, that its actually Cyprus who hold that record, and as they are a lower Tier side playing comparable teams, its actually more impressive that they have the record of 24 wins on the bounce, than if New Zealand, England, Ireland or Wales do. Unless of course they beat teams in their same tier to maintain the record...

So basically.. I was saying your comment was pointless.... but I thank you for the opportunity to clear up my comment.

No9, I am not sure you understand the concept of tiered sports. You don't win a top league or a competition by beating teams in a lower or different competition. You can't win something that way. Thats why there are divisions in sports all over the world. For example, Manchester City can't win the premier league by playing a league of u12s in Canterbury.

You play and compare yourself against teams on your level. Thats what the 18 match winning run is about, and it was a good time to be an England fan during that run.

Are you saying it is pointless for any of the tier 1 fans to discuss beating the other tier 1 teams because we would all beat Cyprus? A team outside of the world rugby rankings? So theres no point in talking about winning grand slams or world cups or anything really. Close the board lads, its all pointless.

flyhalffactory wrote:...
In my opinion we shouldn't discuss the Eddie Jones years 2016-2020 as an achievement as it will forever be tainted with the close links to Wray and his spine of Saracen players

Sorry but that has no relevance to England's performance whatsoever. It is like saying Scotland's performances are suspect because they used Maitland.

Of course Wray's creative accountancy helped Saracens as a club, but as far as the actual players go all it did was ensure that they had a slightly better system around them than in other premiership clubs. As far as the national team goes how did it give England any advantages over, say, Ireland with central contracts?

MichaelT wrote:No9, I am not sure you understand the concept of tiered sports. You don't win a top league or a competition by beating teams in a lower or different competition. You can't win something that way. Thats why there are divisions in sports all over the world. For example, Manchester City can't win the premier league by playing a league of u12s in Canterbury.

You play and compare yourself against teams on your level. Thats what the 18 match winning run is about, and it was a good time to be an England fan during that run.

Are you saying it is pointless for any of the tier 1 fans to discuss beating the other tier 1 teams because we would all beat Cyprus? A team outside of the world rugby rankings? So theres no point in talking about winning grand slams or world cups or anything really. Close the board lads, its all pointless.

That's NOT what I was saying... I was trying to point out, that to do that run, England didn't play ALL teams in the same Tier, or in your analogy the same League. If they had, then maybe an 18 match run would have been more impressive. So what if on Game 19 (of the run) they played Spain, then Game 20 played Hong Kong and so on. The run (hence record if they went on further), would have been a pointless record.

In the same way this thread is a pointless thread and is no more than a WUM to big up England as the best in Europe.

So that's my last word on it... If England win the title again this year, I'll concede, that in 2021, they will be the best in Europe. But if they don't, as I suspect they wont, then they aren't, no matter how many games on a run (as its not a record), they have won in the past.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Some good points being made and I can see people are getting a little hot and sweaty....just keep it on topic and wind the heat in a bit. Play nice boys

... sorry.. this thread was a WUM from the start, and the direction it went got under my skin..

I'll walk away from this thread now.. again Sorry..

lostinwales wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:...
In my opinion we shouldn't discuss the Eddie Jones years 2016-2020 as an achievement as it will forever be tainted with the close links to Wray and his spine of Saracen players

Sorry but that has no relevance to England's performance whatsoever. It is like saying Scotland's performances are suspect because they used Maitland.

Of course Wray's creative accountancy helped Saracens as a club, but as far as the actual players go all it did was ensure that they had a slightly better system around them than in other premiership clubs. As far as the national team goes how did it give England any advantages over, say, Ireland with central contracts?

"Sorry but that has no relevance to England's performance whatsoever. It is like saying Scotland's performances are suspect because they used Maitland."

It's actually nothing like that at all, players like Sanjay, Maitland were officially on the "books" and brought in as senior players, whilst the spine of the England team or certainly key players were;
1. brought up in a world class environment as academy players learning off world class players, being involved in world class seniors winning mentality from the likes of Farrell senior etc, that's what Rob Baxters grief is "it wasn't just breaking monetary limits on players, it was the whole world class environment budget they broke"
2. They were the players who were instrumental in agreeing to contracts that took them outside the cap.
To say that Welsh or Scottish academy players from clubs within Glasgow, Llanelli, Swansea, Edinburgh etc wouldn't become much better senior players if they weren't exposed daily to the winning mentality of a squad of world class players and being brought up in world class training facilities. It's like saying a naturally gifted tennis player would succeed to be world class even he wasn't taken off as a youngster to a boarding tennis school

Its total rubbish and IMHO the likes of Farrell, Itoje, George and the Vinupola brothers are much better players because of the 10 years of academy exposure to a world class environment

Ireland acted within their unions rules and regulations budgets, it was transparent and clear.

England's success is in no way tainted. Saracens, yes.

If anything Saracens ability to cheat the cap hid away players like Spencer, Tompkins, Malins etc from first team exposure.

No9, nobody said winning match runs in 2016/ 2017 is relevant to being the best now. You inferred that.

I thought this thread was a fair enough point that England fans shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water because of one loss. Even if they don't win another game this tournament, its no reason to go back to the drawing board and dump players who are out of form and also give them abuse for it. 2018 showed that England can have a poor 6 months and bring themselves back up from that.

It was other posters who brought in winning statistics with select data to show their country is top of the list right now.

But fair enough, leave it alone.

Even for this forum, that's a massive stretch. England fans have been shouting the loudest about Saracens cheating, as we're most likely to have allegiance to clubs that were directly affected.

The England age group teams that Itoje, Farrell and the Vunipolas were involved in were dominant at that level, it always appeared that we would have an absolute glut of talent coming into the clubs, and it was just a matter of bringing them through. Exeter themselves had Nowell, Slade, Ewers etc who were involved in those teams, and we've seen how strong they have been over an equivalent period.

I completely agree that Saracens were cheats, but using that to cast any doubts on the success England have had is very dubious imo

No 7&1/2 wrote:England's success is in no way tainted. Saracens, yes.

If anything Saracens ability to cheat the cap hid away players like Spencer, Tompkins, Malins etc from first team exposure.

So you think the spine of the current team, (many of whom were instrumental in contracts that took them outside of the SC and budget cap) are not better players because since 2012/13 when they were academy youngsters they have been exposed to a squad world class players, training facilities and coaches

The Saracens ripple effect tainted England, why do you think the RFU refused to disclose the report in September 2019 when it suggested to publish it?

They are better players. Malins is a better player now than he was 8 months ago as well. Maitland is a better player than he was in 12/13. Professional players who get game time and prominent places within squads get better shocker.

I have no idea of the role of the RFU with Saracens; please enlighten me.

England U20 squads for the Junior RWC, selected names

2010 - Marler, Mako, Kieran Brookes, Jamie Gibson, Jackson Wray, Freddie Burns, Jonny May, Christian Wade
2011 - Mako, Henry Thomas, Launchbury, Sam Jones, Kvesic, Ford, Farrell, Daly, Yarde, Dan Robson
2012 - LCD, Hepburn, Sinckler, Clifford, Billy Vunipola, Spencer, Slade
2013 - Nowell, Watson, Moriarty, Clifford
2014 - Itoje, Ewels, Billy Burns, Earle, Nick Tompkins

England were regularly in the final throughout this period, and a lot of these names have featured at international level either for England or other nations since 2015.

It's a ridiculous group of talent to have, and was supplemented with names like Lawes and Youngs as established senior players, while Curry/Underhill came through at a very young age. Its no real surprise that we have had success over the last 5 years - regardless of what Saracens did

flyhalffactory wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:England's success is in no way tainted. Saracens, yes.

If anything Saracens ability to cheat the cap hid away players like Spencer, Tompkins, Malins etc from first team exposure.

So you think the spine of the current team, (many of whom were instrumental in contracts that took them outside of the SC and budget cap) are not better players because since 2012/13 when they were academy youngsters they have been exposed to a squad world class players, training facilities and coaches

The Saracens ripple effect tainted England, why do you think the RFU refused to disclose the report in September 2019 when it suggested to publish it?

The point is that we are confusing domestic and international performances. On a domestic level Saracens cheated. At international level there are no rules (outside doping) about how an international team is prepared. As long as a national body can get buy in from whatever professional club system they might have there is nothing stopping them hothousing a national squad in any way they deem fit. By the same token every professional club system has differences in the way they operate which means comparing like for like is difficult. What about the endless threads on the complications of funding in the Irish system? The money spent by Saracens is probably less that what was being flashed around by some of the French clubs, for instance (although they seemed to spend more on aging superstars).

I appreciate the Rob Baxter quote you included earlier but that spine of Saracens players were/ are exceptional. There is no reason to believe that, say, Itoje, would not have been a (to use a much hated phrase) 'world class' player wherever he had ended up as long as it was a professional and sensible setup.

No9 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Some good points being made and I can see people are getting a little hot and sweaty....just keep it on topic and wind the heat in a bit. Play nice boys

 ... sorry.. this thread was a WUM from the start, and the direction it went got under my skin..

I'll walk away from this thread now.. again Sorry..

Yes it started as a WUM thread but that does not mean it can't go in more sensible directions. It doesn't have to be a catastrophe.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Some good points being made and I can see people are getting a little hot and sweaty....just keep it on topic and wind the heat in a bit. Play nice boys

When did you get promoted Sarge?

flyhalffactory wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that in general rugby fans from Wales and Scotland would like to beat England more than any other country.
It is therefor their biggest games of the year and adds to the spice and competitiveness of the 6Ns.
Certainly Wales raise their game against the English as can be seen with their 6Ns record compared to their results eg. against NZ & Australia.

Could it be that England raise their game for matches against Scotland and Wales? Two sides of the coin

The Stereophonics knew which side of their bread was buttered.

https://youtu.be/skApHVxkgAo

I knew someone would bring this up, I just knew it.

This was done at a time when England were the dominant team in the NH, towards the end of the last millennium. They have been anything but since.

Best part of two decades, you have been at around the same level as the rest of us.

Ok back to 1977 when Wales were the dominant team. Phil Bennett

We were playing England [1977]. In that situation, a game every Welshman is desperate to win, what do you say to JPR [Williams], JJ [Williams], Steve Fenwick, Terry Cobner and the Pontypool front row that’s any different? Off the cuff I began this rant: ‘Look at what these buggers have done to Wales. They’ve taken our coal, our water, our steel. They buy our houses and only live in them for two weeks of every year. We’ve been controlled, exploited, raped and punished by the English and that’s who you’re playing today, boys.’ I was pretty chuffed, although wasn’t sure Gareth had been taking it in. ‘And Gar,’ I said, ‘they’ve taken our rivers, too.’ He’s a great fisherman and he said: ‘What? The illegitimate childen!’”

Could he get away with that now? Probably not. Indeed when Joe Marler was fined and banned for calling Wales’ Samson Lee “Gypsy boy” another Englishman, Jeff Probyn, suggested there ought to be retrospective punishment for Bennett. “He wanted me to be stripped of my OBE and kicked out of the World Hall of Fame. I didn’t mean for my remarks to be taken personally by the England team we played. I had a fine drink with all of them after the match. Two of my best pals from the Lions tours are Peter Wheeler and Fran Cotton. I phoned Fran after this blew up and he said: ‘Don’t worry, Phil, everyone hates England. What do you think the Scots have said about us down the years?’!”

This to me sums it up nicely.

I'm sure we can find things said about other teams when we were about to play them as well.

Please do.
I’m surprised at your reticence to admit that for most of your country it’s the ‘big one.’
I’ve just read a Twitter feed from World Rugby asking the question best rugby games when you can say ‘I was there’.
Unsurprisingly many Welsh posters talking about Welsh wins against England.
This is not news is it?

Evening Trev
From a Scottish viewpoint particularly the 6Ns we look at England over the last 4 seasons the side we should beat, as we generally have performed better
2021 Eng 6 v 11 Sco (how many butchered tries, 4 was it?)
2020 Sco 6 v 13 Eng (Hogg brainfart)
2019 Eng 38 v 38 Sco (Ford 84m try)
2018 Sco 25 v 13 Eng (Huw Jones should have had 4 tries not 2)
So the reason we want to beat England over the last 6 seasons is they "seem" to have all the internal and external resources, their win at any costs mentality with Eddie Jones sometimes goes "beyond the pale" e.g. the "Saracens effect" not because they are the team to beat, however the neighbours we really want to beat are our bogey teams Ireland then Wales followed by France

In my opinion we shouldn't discuss the Eddie Jones years 2016-2020 as an achievement as it will forever be tainted with the close links to Wray and his spine of Saracen players

You might not have realised it but you've made my point for me. All the other six nations teams see how they fare against England as their reference point. You might claim Scotland have been better but that doesn't make much sense considering you're ignoring a 61-21 loss. Either way it doesn't matter you're using England as your standard just like all the other six nations teams without dominating European rugby.

England have dominated the six nations under Eddie Jones (3 out of 5, a majority) and there is no great prestige for winning another six nations. The big prize for Jones and England is the world cup. No one team in Europe has that as their 'next step' not even France.

How big would Scotland winning the six nations be? It would be huge. How big would it be for England? Not that big it would be normal as it is more common than not under Jones.

England are at a point where they judge themselves by how they do against 2-3 teams at world cups. They are miles ahead of the competition. You made my point for me by comparing Scotland to England. England don't compare themselves to Scotland. They're competing with New Zealand and South Africa now.

flyhalffactory wrote:

Its total rubbish and IMHO the likes of Farrell, Itoje, George and the Vinupola brothers are much better players because of the 10 years of academy exposure to a world class environment.

Scotland are much better because some of their best players are Englishmen like Watson, Ali Price, Redpath but that's the rules and Saracens only broke Premiership rules not European rugby rules so what this has to do with the six nations I have no clue.

MichaelT wrote:

I thought this thread was a fair enough point that England fans shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water because of one loss. Even if they don't win another game this tournament, its no reason to go back to the drawing board and dump players who are out of form and also give them abuse for it. 2018 showed that England can have a poor 6 months and bring themselves back up from that.

It was other posters who brought in winning statistics with select data to show their country is top of the list right now.

Exactly thank you for understanding I don't know if it's lockdown getting to everyone but this was just about perspective for England and how it's not the end of the world.