Perspective...

Theres a lot of dribble being written about a number of players selected to tour, I think it's about time we take the criticisms with a hint of realism...

Stevens - I can understand why people dislike him, his history isn't great, but he is tearing the AP apart, contributing to Sarries euro campaign, and is a nicely rounded prop. He is a third choice option, and IMHO best of a bad bunch with the players he competed with.

Hartley - Again isn't a nice character, has discipline issues, and hasn't offered much to the England cause this year, but IMHO he is a better rounded player than Youngs, and if I had to pick one of the English boys he would be mine!

Jenkins - Yes he doesn't get in over Sheridan, but the French game is strength and scrum based, his Wales form is patchy, but if you really think about it he is played unfit and only ever gets stronger, as he looked excellent in the final games of the AI's and 6N, fitness is his issue due to no club rugby being played, but he is the most talented prop in the Isles by a mile and covers the ground as well as any too.

Lydiate - I can't argue this guys case, although a very good player he just hasn't played enough and done anything to warrant travel, but Gats knows him and like what he offers.

Croft - Injury hit again, but we all know what Croft can offer, especially if we play an open running game, I GUARENTEE HE WILL SCORE TRIES, but a test spot is very far off.

Phillips - Well Wales aren't the same team without him, and they are double champs now so... For his weaknesses he is a weapon to have in the arsenal!!

Farell - No justification needed IMHO, he has been accused of bottling it but when did this happen, he missed 2/3 kicks v Wales when his pack were destroyed, and nothing outside him offered any threat, and Toulon were in control, did he miss a kick then!! He has led his club to a euro semi, and England to a GS decider, he has been excellent and deserves his place!!!

Aside from Lydiate and Tom Youngs I think the squad has a good look to it, and it's a third 10 option away from being what most of us wanted, if not expected, so I am pretty happy.

When the inevitable injuries come the likes of...

Grant
Best
Owens
Launchbury
Brown
Robshaw
Laidlaw
Biggar
Hook
Madigan
Visser

Will all substitute in nicely!!

Go LIONS!!!!

Well, I have had my say on the Lions squad and how I think they will play, but at the end of the day, he won't know until Gatland has selected his first matchday 22 for the first test.

Overall I understand why gatland has selected 15 Welshman, you go with what you know.

We'll see what his idea's are closer to the time.

The problem with Stevens tearing up the AP is that packs are at best 850kg in club rugby. Most test packs will near 900kg.
Yes, its not all about weight but their is a strong correlation between size and scrum strength... only the French buck that trend.

Versatility is a good thing, but I can't remember him not struggling whichever side he is on. He is in a big saracens pack also with Botha, Borthwick, Smit etc. They have a lot of grunt which helps.

Won't be a problem for the dirt-tracker games mind so his prowess in the loose is why he went and why someone like Grant or Murray didn't.

Hartley I agree. He does his basics well enough and for me the best hooker in England.. Youngs just gets bossed around too much. I see him competing with Hibbard for the test jersey.

One thing I would mention is that the whole Wilkinson thing is a bit of a cop out IMO. They asked him if he would be available to fly out for HK but they knew he wouldn't be released by Toulon so its almost like they're trying to be nice for the public as a PR stunt but in reality they never seem to had intention for him to travel.

There were lots of touch and go decisions and no one will be totally happy but thats what happens when you have to select a team without the players fighting for the jersey directly... its hit and miss sometimes.

fa0019 wrote:The problem with Stevens tearing up the AP is that packs are at best 850kg in club rugby. Most test packs will near 900kg.
Yes, its not all about weight but their is a strong correlation between size and scrum strength... only the French buck that trend.

Versatility is a good thing, but I can't remember him not struggling whichever side he is on. He is in a big saracens pack also with Botha, Borthwick, Smit etc. They have a lot of grunt which helps.

Won't be a problem for the dirt-tracker games mind so his prowess in the loose is why he went and why someone like Grant or Murray didn't.

Hartley I agree. He does his basics well enough and for me the best hooker in England.. Youngs just gets bossed around too much. I see him competing with Hibbard for the test jersey.

One thing I would mention is that the whole Wilkinson thing is a bit of a cop out IMO. They asked him if he would be available to fly out for HK but they knew he wouldn't be released by Toulon so its almost like they're trying to be nice for the public as a PR stunt but in reality they never seem to had intention for him to travel.

There were lots of touch and go decisions and no one will be totally happy but thats what happens when you have to select a team without the players fighting for the jersey directly... its hit and miss sometimes.

I think for the first time mate we agree 100%, Stevens will be nowhere near a test (unless injuries strike) and his style will suit the club games better than Jones, plus there can be a lot of grunt along side him too with the likes of Jenkins, Hibbard, Evans, AWJ etc...

I think Youngs is going to struggle, the England props tend to struggle for position when he scrummages with them, and opposing hookers will target him, plus his lineout is ropy and his dynamism is countered by his size.

I think Wilko was a crowd pleaser too, and Gatland is set to take Hook, Madigan or Biggar but wanted to appease sky sports with a Wilko offer! I don't think Laidlaw will go now as Gats has mentioned he likes Care!

TBH not sure even Beshocked would say Stevens is tearing up the AP

Gatland and co have made some judgement calls which are arguably controversial - but they are made now and they have been made for rugby reasons. It would be dull if we always agreed with coaches selections - but we do have to accept they have more access to players and more knowledge than us.

Of course with hindsight we can com back and lynch them

thebluesmancometh wrote:Stevens - I can understand why people dislike him, his history isn't great, but he is tearing the AP apart, contributing to Sarries euro campaign, and is a nicely rounded prop.

That was deliberate, wasn't it?

I'd have Zebo in there ahead of Visser.

If you want to know why Lydiate is there it is very simple - the man is a tackling machine and all of Warburton's best games at 7 have been with Lydiate at 6. And Gatland loves him.

If you want to see why he got picked have a look at the 2012 Six Nations (esp Wales v France).

Lydiate hasn't played much recently which obviously puts a question mark but if he is up to speed he is the most destructive tackler in the Northern Hemisphere.

in 2008 Shane Williams conquered all and won the world player of the year award.... come 2009 and the Lions series, he was badly suffering from lack of form and in fairness only got on the tour off the back of his reputation.

12 months is a long time in rugby.

I understand why Lydiate was chosen but I think it will be difficult for him to pick up where he left off, near impossible.

The sad thing is (strictly on a personal level for players themselves) that not only are the players who feel they've missed out gutted but some of the ones named might not get to the plane. It's rugby, it's still being played and injuries happen.
However bad a non selected player feels now, how brutal is the punishment of having been awarded a Lions shirt and not even getting to the plane?

Nothing is guaranteed either way, either for the guys who will supposedly stay at home or the guys that will supposedly travel.

I agree fly, shed loads of guys who were at some point in time good enough but were unlucky to get injured at their peak/tours were not that year etc

look at Will Greenwood for instance, nearly died in 97 on tour, got injured in 01 before the tests and we all thought he'd finish his career without a lions cap... managed to get a couple in 05 but he was a shadow of the player he was before. One of the greatest European players in pro era and the lions is a mere sidenote to his story.

Simon Taylor went on 2 tours but got injured in both... and played like half a game in total. He could have been an awesome lion.

wanderingdragon wrote:If you want to know why Lydiate is there it is very simple - the man is a tackling machine and all of Warburton's best games at 7 have been with Lydiate at 6. And Gatland loves him.

If you want to see why he got picked have a look at the 2012 Six Nations (esp Wales v France).

Lydiate hasn't played much recently which obviously puts a question mark but if he is up to speed he is the most destructive tackler in the Northern Hemisphere.

I take great issue with both of these statements, you say he is a tackling machine yet in the 2012 6N he didn't even feature in the top 3 tackling Flankers for tackles made or completion rate, Croft, Ferris, Robshaw and Dusatoir were ahead of him in both of those categories. Not entirely sure what you mean by destructive tackler either, he isn't exactly renowned for being a big hitter, he just gets the player down, but as i've just mentioned, there are plenty of other players who do this and bring a lot more to the table (Robshaws all round game and work rate, Ferris' brilliant carrying, crofts lineout work and pace etc).

Lydiate is a good solid international, he is not this World class tackling machine best 6 in the NH that many people here to claim, he shouldn't be on that plane.

belovedfrosties wrote:

wanderingdragon wrote:If you want to know why Lydiate is there it is very simple - the man is a tackling machine and all of Warburton's best games at 7 have been with Lydiate at 6. And Gatland loves him.

If you want to see why he got picked have a look at the 2012 Six Nations (esp Wales v France).

Lydiate hasn't played much recently which obviously puts a question mark but if he is up to speed he is the most destructive tackler in the Northern Hemisphere.

I take great issue with both of these statements, you say he is a tackling machine yet in the 2012 6N he didn't even feature in the top 3 tackling Flankers for tackles made or completion rate, Croft, Ferris, Robshaw and Dusatoir were ahead of him in both of those categories. Not entirely sure what you mean by destructive tackler either, he isn't exactly renowned for being a big hitter, he just gets the player down, but as i've just mentioned, there are plenty of other players who do this and bring a lot more to the table (Robshaws all round game and work rate, Ferris' brilliant carrying, crofts lineout work and pace etc).

Lydiate is a good solid international, he is not this World class tackling machine best 6 in the NH that many people here to claim, he shouldn't be on that plane.

mmmm, not sure your opinion counts though cos, he is on that plane.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Theres a lot of dribble being written about a number of players selected to tour, I think it's about time we take the criticisms with a hint of realism...

Stevens - I can understand why people dislike him, his history isn't great, but he is tearing the AP apart, contributing to Sarries euro campaign, and is a nicely rounded prop. He is a third choice option, and IMHO best of a bad bunch with the players he competed with.

Hartley - Again isn't a nice character, has discipline issues, and hasn't offered much to the England cause this year, but IMHO he is a better rounded player than Youngs, and if I had to pick one of the English boys he would be mine!

Jenkins - Yes he doesn't get in over Sheridan, but the French game is strength and scrum based, his Wales form is patchy, but if you really think about it he is played unfit and only ever gets stronger, as he looked excellent in the final games of the AI's and 6N, fitness is his issue due to no club rugby being played, but he is the most talented prop in the Isles by a mile and covers the ground as well as any too.

Lydiate - I can't argue this guys case, although a very good player he just hasn't played enough and done anything to warrant travel, but Gats knows him and like what he offers.

Croft - Injury hit again, but we all know what Croft can offer, especially if we play an open running game, I GUARENTEE HE WILL SCORE TRIES, but a test spot is very far off.

Phillips - Well Wales aren't the same team without him, and they are double champs now so... For his weaknesses he is a weapon to have in the arsenal!!

Farell - No justification needed IMHO, he has been accused of bottling it but when did this happen, he missed 2/3 kicks v Wales when his pack were destroyed, and nothing outside him offered any threat, and Toulon were in control, did he miss a kick then!! He has led his club to a euro semi, and England to a GS decider, he has been excellent and deserves his place!!!

Aside from Lydiate and Tom Youngs I think the squad has a good look to it, and it's a third 10 option away from being what most of us wanted, if not expected, so I am pretty happy.

When the inevitable injuries come the likes of...

Grant
Best
Owens
Launchbury
Brown
Robshaw
Laidlaw
Biggar
Hook
Madigan
Visser

Will all substitute in nicely!!

Go LIONS!!!!

Apart from the slight over-statement of Stevens' tearing up forests ability,

belovedfrosties wrote:

wanderingdragon wrote:If you want to know why Lydiate is there it is very simple - the man is a tackling machine and all of Warburton's best games at 7 have been with Lydiate at 6. And Gatland loves him.

If you want to see why he got picked have a look at the 2012 Six Nations (esp Wales v France).

Lydiate hasn't played much recently which obviously puts a question mark but if he is up to speed he is the most destructive tackler in the Northern Hemisphere.

I take great issue with both of these statements, you say he is a tackling machine yet in the 2012 6N he didn't even feature in the top 3 tackling Flankers for tackles made or completion rate, Croft, Ferris, Robshaw and Dusatoir were ahead of him in both of those categories. Not entirely sure what you mean by destructive tackler either, he isn't exactly renowned for being a big hitter, he just gets the player down, but as i've just mentioned, there are plenty of other players who do this and bring a lot more to the table (Robshaws all round game and work rate, Ferris' brilliant carrying, crofts lineout work and pace etc).

Lydiate is a good solid international, he is not this World class tackling machine best 6 in the NH that many people here to claim, he shouldn't be on that plane.

So true.

After all the hot air on here, the only perspective is that Gatland wanted specialists but has only taken 2 SHs & no.8s and one IC. If any of Heaslip, Faletau or Roberts get injured who replaces ? Oz teams always target the inside channel with their second playmaker in midfield. You have to have versatile players on Lions tours otherwise you have to draft in players which defeats Gatlands aim of creating a closely knit squad in a short space of time.

The S15 sides will be merciless in targeting where the Lions are light and there is very little versatility in that Lions squad before you get to the Tests.......

Gatland was always going to pick a majority of welsh players - he wants a job after and will not make the sames mistakes as Henry or Woodward and the last 6N home game gave him a justification for the media.

Recwatcher wrote:After all the hot air on here, the only perspective is that Gatland wanted specialists but has only taken 2 SHs & no.8s and one IC. If any of Heaslip, Faletau or Roberts get injured who replaces ? Oz teams always target the inside channel with their second playmaker in midfield. You have to have versatile players on Lions tours otherwise you have to draft in players which defeats Gatlands aim of creating a closely knit squad in a short space of time.

The S15 sides will be merciless in targeting where the Lions are light and there is very little versatility in that Lions squad before you get to the Tests.......

Gatland was always going to pick a majority of welsh players - he wants a job after and will not make the sames mistakes as Henry or Woodward and the last 6N home game gave him a justification for the media.

Fair point, Rec, which brings us back to wondering whether Gatland's appointment was the right one after all? But who else? Anyway, far too late now ...

Recwatcher wrote:If any of Heaslip, Faletau or Roberts get injured who replaces ?

A telephone call and a plane ticket. The world really has gotten smaller...logistically people make a big deal about a player going down south quickly - he won't be up to speed with training camp, he'll be jetlagged, he'll feel an outsider... Don't buy it - he'll go to work.

Any injury will be soon filled in by a travelling backup.

Recwatcher wrote:After all the hot air on here, the only perspective is that Gatland wanted specialists but has only taken 2 SHs & no.8s and one IC. If any of Heaslip, Faletau or Roberts get injured who replaces ? Oz teams always target the inside channel with their second playmaker in midfield. You have to have versatile players on Lions tours otherwise you have to draft in players which defeats Gatlands aim of creating a closely knit squad in a short space of time.

The S15 sides will be merciless in targeting where the Lions are light and there is very little versatility in that Lions squad before you get to the Tests.......

Gatland was always going to pick a majority of welsh players - he wants a job after and will not make the sames mistakes as Henry or Woodward and the last 6N home game gave him a justification for the media.

I take serious issue with this, since the selection these boards have become strongly anti Welsh and unjustly so IMHO!!

There was 14 deserving selections from Wales and a dubious one, the 14 are clearly better than their rivals, 1 by 1 they are deserving of their tour spots (even if they aren't test material right now) and 2 back to back championship wins (one with the worst head coach in int history) kind of backs that up!!!

As I said I am not taking nationality into consideration when making the list, I have looked at them on their merits, I suggest a few more people on here do the same!

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Recwatcher wrote:After all the hot air on here, the only perspective is that Gatland wanted specialists but has only taken 2 SHs & no.8s and one IC. If any of Heaslip, Faletau or Roberts get injured who replaces ? Oz teams always target the inside channel with their second playmaker in midfield. You have to have versatile players on Lions tours otherwise you have to draft in players which defeats Gatlands aim of creating a closely knit squad in a short space of time.

The S15 sides will be merciless in targeting where the Lions are light and there is very little versatility in that Lions squad before you get to the Tests.......

Gatland was always going to pick a majority of welsh players - he wants a job after and will not make the sames mistakes as Henry or Woodward and the last 6N home game gave him a justification for the media.

I take serious issue with this, since the selection these boards have become strongly anti Welsh and unjustly so IMHO!!

There was 14 deserving selections from Wales and a dubious one, the 14 are clearly better than their rivals, 1 by 1 they are deserving of their tour spots (even if they aren't test material right now) and 2 back to back championship wins (one with the worst head coach in int history) kind of backs that up!!!

As I said I am not taking nationality into consideration when making the list, I have looked at them on their merits, I suggest a few more people on here do the same!

blue, have you actually read these boards?????

All i've read in most threads is how good the welsh are, how inferior other nations players are. So to somehow suggest people are being anti welsh is just bizarre!!

People will always have a difference of opinion on who they should be on tour, if they believe a welsh player shouldn't tour - well it's not being anti welsh.

Perhaps it will be become a Lions Gatlands rule......if you win a 6N before a Lions tour the whole team gets to go.....as we all know a 6N is perfect preparation to play SH sides in the SH ........not.

However the point I was making is that the squad picked has few versatile players - that is a strategic mistake - You can use Ryan Jones, Paul James & Hook as a selection shout if you want to Blues.

nathan wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Recwatcher wrote:After all the hot air on here, the only perspective is that Gatland wanted specialists but has only taken 2 SHs & no.8s and one IC. If any of Heaslip, Faletau or Roberts get injured who replaces ? Oz teams always target the inside channel with their second playmaker in midfield. You have to have versatile players on Lions tours otherwise you have to draft in players which defeats Gatlands aim of creating a closely knit squad in a short space of time.

The S15 sides will be merciless in targeting where the Lions are light and there is very little versatility in that Lions squad before you get to the Tests.......

Gatland was always going to pick a majority of welsh players - he wants a job after and will not make the sames mistakes as Henry or Woodward and the last 6N home game gave him a justification for the media.

I take serious issue with this, since the selection these boards have become strongly anti Welsh and unjustly so IMHO!!

There was 14 deserving selections from Wales and a dubious one, the 14 are clearly better than their rivals, 1 by 1 they are deserving of their tour spots (even if they aren't test material right now) and 2 back to back championship wins (one with the worst head coach in int history) kind of backs that up!!!

As I said I am not taking nationality into consideration when making the list, I have looked at them on their merits, I suggest a few more people on here do the same!

blue, have you actually read these boards?????

All i've read in most threads is how good the welsh are, how inferior other nations players are. So to somehow suggest people are being anti welsh is just bizarre!!

People will always have a difference of opinion on who they should be on tour, if they believe a welsh player shouldn't tour - well it's not being anti welsh.

All those posts come from the same 3 plonkers though and there are tones from the majority regarding the high welsh selection, which is IMHO over the last 3 years deserved!

thebluesmancometh wrote:

nathan wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Recwatcher wrote:After all the hot air on here, the only perspective is that Gatland wanted specialists but has only taken 2 SHs & no.8s and one IC. If any of Heaslip, Faletau or Roberts get injured who replaces ? Oz teams always target the inside channel with their second playmaker in midfield. You have to have versatile players on Lions tours otherwise you have to draft in players which defeats Gatlands aim of creating a closely knit squad in a short space of time.

The S15 sides will be merciless in targeting where the Lions are light and there is very little versatility in that Lions squad before you get to the Tests.......

Gatland was always going to pick a majority of welsh players - he wants a job after and will not make the sames mistakes as Henry or Woodward and the last 6N home game gave him a justification for the media.

I take serious issue with this, since the selection these boards have become strongly anti Welsh and unjustly so IMHO!!

There was 14 deserving selections from Wales and a dubious one, the 14 are clearly better than their rivals, 1 by 1 they are deserving of their tour spots (even if they aren't test material right now) and 2 back to back championship wins (one with the worst head coach in int history) kind of backs that up!!!

As I said I am not taking nationality into consideration when making the list, I have looked at them on their merits, I suggest a few more people on here do the same!

blue, have you actually read these boards?????

All i've read in most threads is how good the welsh are, how inferior other nations players are. So to somehow suggest people are being anti welsh is just bizarre!!

People will always have a difference of opinion on who they should be on tour, if they believe a welsh player shouldn't tour - well it's not being anti welsh.

All those posts come from the same 3 plonkers though and there are tones from the majority regarding the high welsh selection, which is IMHO over the last 3 years deserved!

oh come on, don't fall into the trap of trying to read someones tone from text! have you never fell into that trap from a text message!! lol

That is your opinion, clearly others differ - still it's not being anti welsh if people believe not all the welsh players should be there. I should also note these same people are saying other nations players shouldn't be there - e.g Hartley and Stevens

nathan wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

nathan wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Recwatcher wrote:After all the hot air on here, the only perspective is that Gatland wanted specialists but has only taken 2 SHs & no.8s and one IC. If any of Heaslip, Faletau or Roberts get injured who replaces ? Oz teams always target the inside channel with their second playmaker in midfield. You have to have versatile players on Lions tours otherwise you have to draft in players which defeats Gatlands aim of creating a closely knit squad in a short space of time.

The S15 sides will be merciless in targeting where the Lions are light and there is very little versatility in that Lions squad before you get to the Tests.......

Gatland was always going to pick a majority of welsh players - he wants a job after and will not make the sames mistakes as Henry or Woodward and the last 6N home game gave him a justification for the media.

I take serious issue with this, since the selection these boards have become strongly anti Welsh and unjustly so IMHO!!

There was 14 deserving selections from Wales and a dubious one, the 14 are clearly better than their rivals, 1 by 1 they are deserving of their tour spots (even if they aren't test material right now) and 2 back to back championship wins (one with the worst head coach in int history) kind of backs that up!!!

As I said I am not taking nationality into consideration when making the list, I have looked at them on their merits, I suggest a few more people on here do the same!

blue, have you actually read these boards?????

All i've read in most threads is how good the welsh are, how inferior other nations players are. So to somehow suggest people are being anti welsh is just bizarre!!

People will always have a difference of opinion on who they should be on tour, if they believe a welsh player shouldn't tour - well it's not being anti welsh.

All those posts come from the same 3 plonkers though and there are tones from the majority regarding the high welsh selection, which is IMHO over the last 3 years deserved!

oh come on, don't fall into the trap of trying to read someones tone from text! have you never fell into that trap from a text message!! lol

That is your opinion, clearly others differ - still it's not being anti welsh if people believe not all the welsh players should be there. I should also note these same people are saying other nations players shouldn't be there - e.g Hartley and Stevens

Apart from Lydiate, which Welsh players should not be there given their recent performances?

Recwatcher wrote:After all the hot air on here, the only perspective is that Gatland wanted specialists but has only taken 2 SHs & no.8s and one IC. If any of Heaslip, Faletau or Roberts get injured who replaces ? Oz teams always target the inside channel with their second playmaker in midfield. You have to have versatile players on Lions tours otherwise you have to draft in players which defeats Gatlands aim of creating a closely knit squad in a short space of time.

The S15 sides will be merciless in targeting where the Lions are light and there is very little versatility in that Lions squad before you get to the Tests.......

Gatland was always going to pick a majority of welsh players - he wants a job after and will not make the sames mistakes as Henry or Woodward and the last 6N home game gave him a justification for the media.

???
Fair point, cos as we know Woodward went on to spectacular coacing success after that. Don't know about that ...whats his name? Henry fulla.

IronMike wrote:

nathan wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

nathan wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Recwatcher wrote:After all the hot air on here, the only perspective is that Gatland wanted specialists but has only taken 2 SHs & no.8s and one IC. If any of Heaslip, Faletau or Roberts get injured who replaces ? Oz teams always target the inside channel with their second playmaker in midfield. You have to have versatile players on Lions tours otherwise you have to draft in players which defeats Gatlands aim of creating a closely knit squad in a short space of time.

The S15 sides will be merciless in targeting where the Lions are light and there is very little versatility in that Lions squad before you get to the Tests.......

Gatland was always going to pick a majority of welsh players - he wants a job after and will not make the sames mistakes as Henry or Woodward and the last 6N home game gave him a justification for the media.

I take serious issue with this, since the selection these boards have become strongly anti Welsh and unjustly so IMHO!!

There was 14 deserving selections from Wales and a dubious one, the 14 are clearly better than their rivals, 1 by 1 they are deserving of their tour spots (even if they aren't test material right now) and 2 back to back championship wins (one with the worst head coach in int history) kind of backs that up!!!

As I said I am not taking nationality into consideration when making the list, I have looked at them on their merits, I suggest a few more people on here do the same!

blue, have you actually read these boards?????

All i've read in most threads is how good the welsh are, how inferior other nations players are. So to somehow suggest people are being anti welsh is just bizarre!!

People will always have a difference of opinion on who they should be on tour, if they believe a welsh player shouldn't tour - well it's not being anti welsh.

All those posts come from the same 3 plonkers though and there are tones from the majority regarding the high welsh selection, which is IMHO over the last 3 years deserved!

oh come on, don't fall into the trap of trying to read someones tone from text! have you never fell into that trap from a text message!! lol

That is your opinion, clearly others differ - still it's not being anti welsh if people believe not all the welsh players should be there. I should also note these same people are saying other nations players shouldn't be there - e.g Hartley and Stevens

Apart from Lydiate, which Welsh players should not be there given their recent performances?

Think your getting the wrong end of stick, I'm not saying any welsh player doesn't deserve to be there, in my opinion I have a question mark for lydiate and that's it. What I have been trying to say is that just because folks on here express an opinion that there are better players than some of the welsh doesn't mean there being anti welsh.

IronMike wrote:

nathan wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

nathan wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Recwatcher wrote:After all the hot air on here, the only perspective is that Gatland wanted specialists but has only taken 2 SHs & no.8s and one IC. If any of Heaslip, Faletau or Roberts get injured who replaces ? Oz teams always target the inside channel with their second playmaker in midfield. You have to have versatile players on Lions tours otherwise you have to draft in players which defeats Gatlands aim of creating a closely knit squad in a short space of time.

The S15 sides will be merciless in targeting where the Lions are light and there is very little versatility in that Lions squad before you get to the Tests.......

Gatland was always going to pick a majority of welsh players - he wants a job after and will not make the sames mistakes as Henry or Woodward and the last 6N home game gave him a justification for the media.

I take serious issue with this, since the selection these boards have become strongly anti Welsh and unjustly so IMHO!!

There was 14 deserving selections from Wales and a dubious one, the 14 are clearly better than their rivals, 1 by 1 they are deserving of their tour spots (even if they aren't test material right now) and 2 back to back championship wins (one with the worst head coach in int history) kind of backs that up!!!

As I said I am not taking nationality into consideration when making the list, I have looked at them on their merits, I suggest a few more people on here do the same!

blue, have you actually read these boards?????

All i've read in most threads is how good the welsh are, how inferior other nations players are. So to somehow suggest people are being anti welsh is just bizarre!!

People will always have a difference of opinion on who they should be on tour, if they believe a welsh player shouldn't tour - well it's not being anti welsh.

All those posts come from the same 3 plonkers though and there are tones from the majority regarding the high welsh selection, which is IMHO over the last 3 years deserved!

oh come on, don't fall into the trap of trying to read someones tone from text! have you never fell into that trap from a text message!! lol

That is your opinion, clearly others differ - still it's not being anti welsh if people believe not all the welsh players should be there. I should also note these same people are saying other nations players shouldn't be there - e.g Hartley and Stevens

Apart from Lydiate, which Welsh players should not be there given their recent performances?

Fair point Mike - once you accept that Gatland is coach and that he is going to want to play Gatlandball (which has been so successful against NH sides), then other than Lydiate who is a class over form pick (much like Gray or Croft), then you wouldn't quibble with the other Welsh selections - instead you'd focus on Vunipola, Hartley, Stevens, lack of 3rd 10, etc.

belovedfrosties wrote:

wanderingdragon wrote:If you want to know why Lydiate is there it is very simple - the man is a tackling machine and all of Warburton's best games at 7 have been with Lydiate at 6. And Gatland loves him.

If you want to see why he got picked have a look at the 2012 Six Nations (esp Wales v France).

Lydiate hasn't played much recently which obviously puts a question mark but if he is up to speed he is the most destructive tackler in the Northern Hemisphere.

I take great issue with both of these statements, you say he is a tackling machine yet in the 2012 6N he didn't even feature in the top 3 tackling Flankers for tackles made or completion rate, Croft, Ferris, Robshaw and Dusatoir were ahead of him in both of those categories. Not entirely sure what you mean by destructive tackler either, he isn't exactly renowned for being a big hitter, he just gets the player down, but as i've just mentioned, there are plenty of other players who do this and bring a lot more to the table (Robshaws all round game and work rate, Ferris' brilliant carrying, crofts lineout work and pace etc).

Lydiate is a good solid international, he is not this World class tackling machine best 6 in the NH that many people here to claim, he shouldn't be on that plane.

belovedfrosties, could you provide a link to these stats please? Not that I don't believe you, just that I'm genuinely interested. I've searched the usual places such as the RBS 6N site, stat bunker, Opta, espn, etc., but to no avail. Cheers.

Bluesman

Agree with much of your opening post.

Still think Stevens is a very odd selection, but is 3rd choice tighthead really such an issue to get bent out of shape over.

Jenkins - well, Gatland has picked very mobile props in the main (only Adam Jones is a set piece specialist), and Gethin certainly fits this profile. Should be reasonably fresh as he's played relatively little club rugby this year, and should have enough time to get fit and sharp by the Tests.

Personally I prefer Tom Youngs dynamism to Hartley's set piece solidity, but think Best is very unlucky not to be ahead of one of them - probably the biggest victim of Ireland's poor 6Ns.

Phillips was always going to be in the squad - for all his perceived weaknesses as a technical scrum half, Wales are a better side with him in the team. The choice between him and Youngs for the 9 jersey will tell us a lot about whether Gatland is looking to stick with the Welsh tactics or is going to look to be a little more adventurous.

Farrell - Has shown more at international level than Biggar, and will do the job needed of him.

Which leaves Croft and Lydiate. I think the issue in both cases is that there are others (Brown, Wood and Robshaw) who have been good to outstanding for their national side and club side all year, but who have been overlooked based on:
Croft - previous Lions form and that his game should be well suited to the fast conditions in Australia
Lydiate - a punt from Gatland on a player he knows well and clearly rates very highly, who is only recently back from injury and not (yet) fully at the races. Could be a mistake (if he doesn't hit top form) or could be inspired in having a high quality player who is not fatigued from the last season.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Fair point Mike - once you accept that Gatland is coach and that he is going to want to play Gatlandball (which has been so successful against NH sides), then other than Lydiate who is a class over form pick (much like Gray or Croft), then you wouldn't quibble with the other Welsh selections - instead you'd focus on Vunipola, Hartley, Stevens, lack of 3rd 10, etc.

I personally dont take too much of an issue with some dodgy selections, they have been selected for a reason and I reckon they can do the job if they rise to the occasion. As for the Welsh players selected, I do believe if you were picking players in Lions positions there would be a Welsh player at least 2nd choice in most of them at the moment, so even if they dont all start its good to have that depth and players to rely on.

Lydiate over Brown is a huge blunder / gamble. Brown was one of the standout players in the 6N and in the form of his life. Lydiate has hardly played since coming back from injury.

In quite a few places Gatland has gone for the guy he knows in 50/50 calls but this one is the most difficult to justify.

Of course - If lydiate shows his form of 12 months ago Gatland will be a genious

Griff wrote:

belovedfrosties wrote:

wanderingdragon wrote:If you want to know why Lydiate is there it is very simple - the man is a tackling machine and all of Warburton's best games at 7 have been with Lydiate at 6. And Gatland loves him.

If you want to see why he got picked have a look at the 2012 Six Nations (esp Wales v France).

Lydiate hasn't played much recently which obviously puts a question mark but if he is up to speed he is the most destructive tackler in the Northern Hemisphere.

I take great issue with both of these statements, you say he is a tackling machine yet in the 2012 6N he didn't even feature in the top 3 tackling Flankers for tackles made or completion rate, Croft, Ferris, Robshaw and Dusatoir were ahead of him in both of those categories. Not entirely sure what you mean by destructive tackler either, he isn't exactly renowned for being a big hitter, he just gets the player down, but as i've just mentioned, there are plenty of other players who do this and bring a lot more to the table (Robshaws all round game and work rate, Ferris' brilliant carrying, crofts lineout work and pace etc).

Lydiate is a good solid international, he is not this World class tackling machine best 6 in the NH that many people here to claim, he shouldn't be on that plane.

belovedfrosties, could you provide a link to these stats please? Not that I don't believe you, just that I'm genuinely interested. I've searched the usual places such as the RBS 6N site, stat bunker, Opta, espn, etc., but to no avail. Cheers.

No problem Griff, i worked them out from the stats on ESPN, Lydiate did play one game less than all the above, but even when you removed that game from everyone elses stats, they still come out on top. Also, there is an article somewhere on 606V2 that compiled stats for all the players in certain positions, if you can find the one on flankers Lydiate is in that.

I honestly think he's one of the most overrated players around atm, he's sold to everyone as a tackle machine, yet the stats show this to be completely false so how he can be promoted on this basis is beyond me.

belovedfrosties wrote:

Griff wrote:

belovedfrosties wrote:

wanderingdragon wrote:If you want to know why Lydiate is there it is very simple - the man is a tackling machine and all of Warburton's best games at 7 have been with Lydiate at 6. And Gatland loves him.

If you want to see why he got picked have a look at the 2012 Six Nations (esp Wales v France).

Lydiate hasn't played much recently which obviously puts a question mark but if he is up to speed he is the most destructive tackler in the Northern Hemisphere.

I take great issue with both of these statements, you say he is a tackling machine yet in the 2012 6N he didn't even feature in the top 3 tackling Flankers for tackles made or completion rate, Croft, Ferris, Robshaw and Dusatoir were ahead of him in both of those categories. Not entirely sure what you mean by destructive tackler either, he isn't exactly renowned for being a big hitter, he just gets the player down, but as i've just mentioned, there are plenty of other players who do this and bring a lot more to the table (Robshaws all round game and work rate, Ferris' brilliant carrying, crofts lineout work and pace etc).

Lydiate is a good solid international, he is not this World class tackling machine best 6 in the NH that many people here to claim, he shouldn't be on that plane.

belovedfrosties, could you provide a link to these stats please? Not that I don't believe you, just that I'm genuinely interested. I've searched the usual places such as the RBS 6N site, stat bunker, Opta, espn, etc., but to no avail. Cheers.

No problem Griff, i worked them out from the stats on ESPN, Lydiate did play one game less than all the above, but even when you removed that game from everyone elses stats, they still come out on top. Also, there is an article somewhere on 606V2 that compiled stats for all the players in certain positions, if you can find the one on flankers Lydiate is in that.

I honestly think he's one of the most overrated players around atm, he's sold to everyone as a tackle machine, yet the stats show this to be completely false so how he can be promoted on this basis is beyond me.

belovedfrosties
As a Scot it would be easy for me to belittle Lydiate and promote Brown. So this is a totally unbiased viewpoint based on his consistent performance level in 2012, you can forget about Croft, Ferris, or Robshaw......... Lydiate is the go to guy and on form is a tackle machine well above most, and I would challenge the stats from a site that is notoriously inaccurate (I mean they usually have Faletau as right up there on the tackle count and yet he always operates on the fringes of the scrum or tackle area) . As much as I think Kelly Brown should be travelling due to his form during and after the 6Ns, Gatland would have been mad not to include (when 100% fit and on form) the best 6 in the NH.

I am not sure if you have seen many Lydiate performances but he was awesome last year on a PRO 12 level playing in a very poor NGDs pack and the stand out forward by a country mile in the 2012 6Ns rightly winning the player of the tournament. A combo of

8. Healslip
7. Warburton
6. Lydiate

will in my mind be the most destructive unit the Aussies will encounter

TJ wrote:Lydiate over Brown is a huge blunder / gamble. Brown was one of the standout players in the 6N and in the form of his life. Lydiate has hardly played since coming back from injury.

In quite a few places Gatland has gone for the guy he knows in 50/50 calls but this one is the most difficult to justify.

Of course - If lydiate shows his form of 12 months ago Gatland will be a genious

If I selected the squad, then I would have opted for Brown and not Lydiate.
As for the stats on the tackle count, they tend to vary between websites, so who's can we trust? Lydiate plays for a team that is very defencively organised. Everything Wales do is based around a strong defence, therefore he is one of many 'tackling machines' and would find it difficult to stand out in the tackle count. Where as Ireland for example would rely a lot on individuals like O'Brien, Healy and Ferris rather than be a strong defencive unit throughout the entire pack (and at 12 and 13 in Wales' case). I'm not trying to fight for Lydiate's case I'm just trying to bring some perspective. Also considering he was man of the tournament in the 6 Nations just last year I guess he is not that bad an option.

I'm along the same lines that I'd have taken Brown and Lydiate. When Danny gets criticised for not carrying, I tend to get a bit annoyed as it's not his job to do that for Wales, other than short carries to recycle for the backs. So in that sense, he's not going to stand out like an SOB or Ferris. I think Danny is either over or underhyped and there's rarely any middle ground.

Anyway, as I say I'd have got Kelly Brown in too, even if they had to take an extra man.

I think the good thing about Lydiate is that he'll make whoever plays alongside him in the backrow look better, due to his chop tackling, they can get into better jackling positions.

I doubt he is a starter at this stage, but hes certainly a handy player to have on the bench if the games get tight.

What about the players who look good AND make whoever plays alongside them better? Some people don't seem to realise this, but there are back row players out there who (at times) not only lead the tackle count, but they can also rule the breakdown, the line-out, and the carrying (both in open play and the tight exchanges). Depending on possession and the pace of the game. Every 6 should at least be able to carry the ball effectively as it is going to be your role in some games to recycle ball again with some carries. This new "too many ball carriers" thing I see now is ridiculous. The best back row in the world (NZ) has 3 guys who are all fantastic ball carriers. Does that make them imbalanced? No. Because they are good at many other areas of the game too.

Flyhalf, I remember creating a thread last season about the 6 nations stats. Lydiate was not the best tackler in the competition, despite that being his strength. That is just a fact. I remember Dusautoir, Ferris, O'Brien and Robshaw at least having a better tackle percentage, with more tackles completed. Taking into account the game Lydiate missed of course.

The difference between Brown and Lydiate is that Brown also offers a pilfering role at the breakdown. I think he was top pilfere and top tackler in this year's 6 nations. And while he may not be as explosive or dynamic as other 6s, he is an effective ball carrier nonetheless.

I know it annoys a few people when I point this stuff out about Lydiate, but I am yet to see someone offer a decent counter argument other than a few cliches about balance and his roles. He is genuinely the most overrated player I can remember.

This is all just my opinion of course.

If you can't see why Lydiate is included then there's something wrong with you.

I can see why he is included though. Gatland picked the team..

Rory_Gallagher wrote:What about the players who look good AND make whoever plays alongside them better? Some people don't seem to realise this, but there are back row players out there who (at times) not only lead the tackle count, but they can also rule the breakdown, the line-out, and the carrying (both in open play and the tight exchanges). Depending on possession and the pace of the game. Every 6 should at least be able to carry the ball effectively as it is going to be your role in some games to recycle ball again with some carries. This new "too many ball carriers" thing I see now is ridiculous. The best back row in the world (NZ) has 3 guys who are all fantastic ball carriers. Does that make them imbalanced? No. Because they are good at many other areas of the game too.

Flyhalf, I remember creating a thread last season about the 6 nations stats. Lydiate was not the best tackler in the competition, despite that being his strength. That is just a fact. I remember Dusautoir, Ferris, O'Brien and Robshaw at least having a better tackle percentage, with more tackles completed. Taking into account the game Lydiate missed of course.

The difference between Brown and Lydiate is that Brown also offers a pilfering role at the breakdown. I think he was top pilfere and top tackler in this year's 6 nations. And while he may not be as explosive or dynamic as other 6s, he is an effective ball carrier nonetheless.

I know it annoys a few people when I point this stuff out about Lydiate, but I am yet to see someone offer a decent counter argument other than a few cliches about balance and his roles. He is genuinely the most overrated player I can remember.

This is all just my opinion of course.

Rory
"Best tackler"............ do you mean quantity?, quality?, positional?.....

Understand your frustration, but don't gauge the accuracy of the stats site as "facts", if you looked at the Dragons v Munster game then Lydiate in what only in his second game back had 22 unassisted tackles and 14 assisted tackles (accurate stats!! maybe) I mean that's just crazy, that was so far ahead of anyone else on the night it was frankly embarrassing and its no good banging on about Munster seconds because Faletau was nowhere near the tackle count or any of the pack in fact. Kelly Brown for me was the first choice flanker to be pencilled in on the Lions selection and yes offers something different to Lydiate and so does SOB, Robshaw and Ferris all class players.

Lydiate deffo offers less in the lineout and ball carrying but more in the tackle area, scrum, breakdown, maul, and ruck, he even punches above his weight strengthwise.............. just an opinion of course but I believe he is the best blindside as I believe a fit Ross Rennie on top form is the best openside.

This is a decent counter argument, Lydiate was voted 6Ns Top Player not just because of his tackling count, but his quality of tackles..... low projectory hard and fast, his work-rate is frightening, raising the spirit of his team mates.

Not facts just an opinion

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I can see why he is included though. Gatland picked the team..

I would suggest ignoring anything T1000 says on here mostly its embarrassing and created to wind us up

I could argue how he made the much vaunted Irish backrow of Ferris, SOB and Heaslip ineffective in both the World cup and the following six nations game with his tackling technique, SOB is a handful of a player, and was expected to cause all sorts of problems for the Welsh defence, but Lydiate stopped him each time.

He IS lucky to be going on tour because of his lack of game time, but you can see why he was picked. And who knows if Kelly Brown or Robshaw make it, the backrow is probably the most contested area for the Lions and injuries could easily occur in the mid week matches or training.

Lydiate is very good at what he does best.

The closest player to Lydiate is Joe Worsley. They are great at chopping down the opposition ball carriers. In other words making offensive tackles. Worsley was also in the Wasps team coached by Gatland so its fair to say he likes that type of player.

Personally I'd prefer to see more of a ball carrying player there and a few others in the pack. I don't think Gatland thinks that way though. He'll use the backs to do the ball carrying.

IronMike wrote:I could argue how he made the much vaunted Irish backrow of Ferris, SOB and Heaslip ineffective in both the World cup and the following six nations game with his tackling technique, SOB is a handful of a player, and was expected to cause all sorts of problems for the Welsh defence, but Lydiate stopped him each time.

He IS lucky to be going on tour because of his lack of game time, but you can see why he was picked. And who knows if Kelly Brown or Robshaw make it, the backrow is probably the most contested area for the Lions and injuries could easily occur in the mid week matches or training.

I don't think the Aussies will be as predictable.

Peter O'Mahony was named by Gatland as being very close too and is another who had a great season.

IronMike wrote:I could argue how he made the much vaunted Irish backrow of Ferris, SOB and Heaslip ineffective in both the World cup and the following six nations game with his tackling technique, SOB is a handful of a player, and was expected to cause all sorts of problems for the Welsh defence, but Lydiate stopped him each time.

He IS lucky to be going on tour because of his lack of game time, but you can see why he was picked. And who knows if Kelly Brown or Robshaw make it, the backrow is probably the most contested area for the Lions and injuries could easily occur in the mid week matches or training.

SOB is a handful, when used correctly. Same with Heaslip and Ferris. However the tactics over the past few years have literally been give O'Brien the ball. His impact on the game is lessened dramatically because of this, and it isn't hard to defend against. It doesn't matter how good a ball carrier you are, if that is how you are used, you won't be making much ground. In general I don't think Ireland have utilised the players properly. O'Mahony is another who is being used as a Croft-esque flanker, when his real strengths are right up close in the action.

Flyhalf - I agree that Lydiate has fantastic technique, but in terms of tackle percentage and tackles completed, that is how I am gauging his defence against other 6s. If it is about the effectiveness of each tackle, well I agree that will be more subjective I guess. I don't believe his work at the breakdown is that impressive either, he doesn't add a whole lot there. Apparently his tackling technique is what allows others to make turnovers, but apart from the fact Warburton doesn't make all that many, the ones he does, rarely actually involve Lydiate. Watch the World Cup and you will see this.

BTW I'm not frustrated, I just genuinely don't understand the hype surrounding Lydiate. His tackling technique is world class, yes, but nothing else is. Until he adds to his game, he isn't up there with the best 6s.

I don't think the irish back row is worth comparing honestly, it isn't very good and I'll be the first to admit that. I hope Schmidt can fix that.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

IronMike wrote:I could argue how he made the much vaunted Irish backrow of Ferris, SOB and Heaslip ineffective in both the World cup and the following six nations game with his tackling technique, SOB is a handful of a player, and was expected to cause all sorts of problems for the Welsh defence, but Lydiate stopped him each time.

He IS lucky to be going on tour because of his lack of game time, but you can see why he was picked. And who knows if Kelly Brown or Robshaw make it, the backrow is probably the most contested area for the Lions and injuries could easily occur in the mid week matches or training.

SOB is a handful, when used correctly. Same with Heaslip and Ferris. However the tactics over the past few years have literally been give O'Brien the ball. His impact on the game is lessened dramatically because of this, and it isn't hard to defend against. It doesn't matter how good a ball carrier you are, if that is how you are used, you won't be making much ground. In general I don't think Ireland have utilised the players properly. O'Mahony is another who is being used as a Croft-esque flanker, when his real strengths are right up close in the action.

Flyhalf - I agree that Lydiate has fantastic technique, but in terms of tackle percentage and tackles completed, that is how I am gauging his defence against other 6s. If it is about the effectiveness of each tackle, well I agree that will be more subjective I guess. I don't believe his work at the breakdown is that impressive either, he doesn't add a whole lot there. Apparently his tackling technique is what allows others to make turnovers, but apart from the fact Warburton doesn't make all that many, the ones he does, rarely actually involve Lydiate. Watch the World Cup and you will see this.

BTW I'm not frustrated, I just genuinely don't understand the hype surrounding Lydiate. His tackling technique is world class, yes, but nothing else is. Until he adds to his game, he isn't up there with the best 6s.

I think on this forum most are in agreement with you i.e. "What's all this with Danny Boy", and fair dos to Lydiate he has admitted himself in a recent very gracious interview he was surprised at his inclusion especially with the quality of players in the 2013 6Ns.

With regard to quality of play, if you take the comparison of Lydiate and his team mate Faletau, the stats reveal that Toby probably makes many more tackles but a high %age are "passive" stopping the player but not the momentum of play as more often than not the ball is recycled to another player, with Lydiate he tackles low and hard the player drops and Warbs (sometimes Toby) turns over the ball over. The dirty work is done by Dan the sexy stuff is done by Warbs or Toby.... such is life. With regard to his performance especially the World Cup....... I believe IronMike highlighted just how good he was, when in the QF having just come back from an ankle ligament injury he generally bettered Ferris and often in the breakdown mullered both Ferris and SOB thus providing time and space for Faletau/Warburton to make the flashy ball carrying.

flyhalffactory wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I can see why he is included though. Gatland picked the team..

I would suggest ignoring anything T1000 says on here mostly its embarrassing and created to wind us up

"it's"

I remember a while back someone took the time to go through Warburtons highlights on youtube of many of his turnovers to see how often it was that Lydiate that set them up, he found one example.

I also find it amusing how Worseley was often derided for being one dimensional and average because all he could do is tackle. Lydiate does the same and is hailed as the best 6 in the NH and world class. I like lydiate as a player and as a person, but he is a solid player and no more. Before the stats were brought up he was a tackle machine, now that that isn't the case this has changed to "the type" of tackles he makes. The goalposts keep getting moved to suit his supporters when all evidence available points him out to being a decent tackler and nothing more.

Sorry, but I'm with Rory on this.

ps. don't get me started on how he won player of the tournament last year, that was a joke.

t1000advancedprototype wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I can see why he is included though. Gatland picked the team..

I would suggest ignoring anything T1000 says on here mostly its embarrassing and created to wind us up

"it's"

Proves my point