Irish U20 RWC team v S Africa news

Source and Link - http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/23299.php

The Ireland Under-20 team (sponsored by PwC) to play South Africa has been named by Coach Mike Ruddock. Ruddock has made five personnel changes to the starting XV that lost out to England in their opening game of the IRB Junior World Championship.

Tiernan O’Halloran comes in at full back with Craig Gilroy moving to the wing. JJ Hanrahan will partner Brendan Macken in the centre.
James McKinney has been promoted to the starting side in the out half position with Paddy Jackson named in the replacements.

Daniel Qualter has been named alongside Michael Kearney in the second row with Aaron Connelly making his tournament debut in the back row.

Iain Henderson, Dominic Gallagher, and Luke Marshall have been named in the replacements.

Speaking about his selection, Ruddock said "We have looked closely at South Africa and they present another massive challenge. Typically they are a big and very physical side. Combine that with a four day turnaround and it is important that we introduce some freshness into our team.

As such I have made five changes to the team that played England. The players coming in are all experienced age grade internationals and they will be keen to perform on the big stage."


Ireland Under-20 Team to play South Africa Under-20:(IRB Junior World Championship, Treviso, Tuesday, 13th June, kick-off 20.10hrs local time/ 19.10hrs Irish time)

15 - Tiernan O’Halloran (Galwegians - Connacht)
14 - Andrew Conway (Blackrock - Leinster)
13 - Brendan Macken (Blackrock - Leinster)
12 - JJ Hanrahan (UL Bohemians- Munster)
11 - Craig Gilroy (Dungannon - Ulster)
10 - James McKinney (Queens - Ulster)
9 - Kieran Marmion (UWIC - Exile)
1 - James Tracy (UCD - Leinster)
2 - Niall Annett (Belfast Harlequins - Ulster)
3 - Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf - Leinster)
4 - Michael Kearney (Clontarf - Leinster)
5 - Daniel Qualter (Buccaneers - Connacht)
6 - Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne - Leinster)
7 - Aaron Connelly (Galway Corinthians - Connacht)
8 - Eoin McKeon (Galwegians - Connacht)

Replacements -
16 - David Doyle (UCD - Leinster)
17 - Conor Carey (Ballymena - Ulster)
18 - Iain Henderson (Queens - Ulster)
19 - Dominic Gallagher (Dublin University - Ulster)
20 - Peter Du Toit (UCD - Leinster)
21 - Paddy Jackson (Dungannon - Ulster)
22 - Luke Marshall (Ballymena - Ulster)

Ireland Under-20 Pool Games (All Times are Local)
14 Jun 20:10 Ireland v South Africa Stadio Comunale di Monigo, Treviso
18 Jun 20:10 Ireland v Scotland Stadio Mario Battaglini, Rovigo

Update on Both teams:

Ireland
South Africa
James Tracy 1 Stephan Kotze
Niall Annett (C) 2 Michael Van Vuuren
Tadhg Furlong 3 John Roy Jenkinson
Michael Kearney 4 Ruan Venter
Daniel Qualter 5 Eben Etzebeth
Jordi Murphy 6 Nizaam Carr
Aaron Conneely 7 Cornell Du Preez
Eoin McKeon 8 Arno Botha (C)
Kieran Marmion 9 Lohan Jacobs
James McKinney 10 Johan Goosen
Craig Gilroy 11 Wandile Mjekevu
JJ Hanrahan 12 Francois Venter
Brendan Macken 13 Bradley Moolman
Andrew Conway 14 Courtnall Skosan
Tiernan O’Halloran 15 Ulrich Beyers

David Doyle 16 Mbongeni Mbonambi
Conor Carey 17 Nic Schonert
Iain Henderson 18 Jean Cook
Dominic Gallagher 19 Siya Kolisi
Peter Du Toit 20 Pieter Rademan
Paddy Jackson 21 Johnny Welthagen
Luke Marshall 22 Paul Jordaan

Quite a few changes in there, as would be expected after such a short turnaround and a very physical game. McKinney will provide something very different at 10 to Jackson, a more structured game, and it's good to see Gilroy back in his best position.

I hope you do us a favour and beat South Africa. Should be a cracking game

Mashall to the bench?

O’Halloran is a classy player, but wasn't he on the wing in the 6nations? And wasn't Conway at fullback?

I'm not really sure what Ruddock is doing with the back three to be honest with you.

Marshall to the bench- I'm a little surprised because I thought he was quite good against England. But Hanrahan is a classy player in his own right.

HammerofThunor wrote:I hope you do us a favour and beat South Africa. Should be a cracking game

Please don't, you should have beaten England, and didn't, now don't spoil it for us.

On a serious note, Ireland did very well against an england team that I think will be too strong for us in the forward pack. So it will be a close tight match.

What's the SA team like,have they made many changes form the Scotland game and if they have are they improvements or is there much difference.

SA looked impressive in the 1st game ,I only saw highlights but a Scottish poster on the old 606 said they were a pretty poor side so I don't know how much to read into it.

Freshness is a key factor in these decisions I guess. Very quick turnaround time between these games.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:What's the SA team like,have they made many changes form the Scotland game and if they have are they improvements or is there much difference.

SA looked impressive in the 1st game ,I only saw highlights but a Scottish poster on the old 606 said they were a pretty poor side so I don't know how much to read into it.

Scotland played with a lot of enthusiasm, but what they did do very succesfully was spoil SA ball at the rucks and mauls.

SA will need to play as a team and not a bunch of individuals, our skill set was poor, execution left a lot to be desired for, our right wing on his own blundered three chances of certain tries, and then our players played a lot of individual rugby rather than looking for passing to someone in a better position.

If we don't get this sorted it will cost us a game.

Lol so you're saying they weren't as impressive as I thought.Shows you how much you learn from watching highlights.

Looking forward to this match. We need to win so we can get into the 5-8 placings.

chat box is open for the game

Pardon my ignorance but where is the chat box accessed from?

Hey anyone know a stream for the game?

There's one on myp2p

Nice one!

Once again just not clinical enough,Ireland need to be getting tries.Thats twice now we've had good opportunities and have only come away with 3 points.

Wow we need to work on concentrating after we score.4 times now we've scored and immediately given away a try or penalty.

How'd he get through there?!? We done son, great try.

Stream on myp2p is excellent. Good enough game. Good try from Conway. Goosen looks very good for SA. Come on Ireland up the pace.

I'm using this stream and it's spot on ...

Stupid dive from Mjekevu. Game over though. SA defence to good.

We have no threat in the forwards,if we try to bash it up they knock us back a mile so we're forced to go wide every time making us a little too predictable.Still made some nice linebreaks but we need some more grunt up front to compete.

A chink of light maybe?

Well worked try, thought they'd stuffed it when they went up the short side.

Conway on 8 tries now. Two off the record and still in group stages.

Overall that went better than expected

This was a great effort by all the lads. They kept going and at times looked to be at least equal on footballing skill. Same old story though - you can't coach height!

Compare McKeon to Botha and they both have good brains and ability, but Arno has far more power. If McK gets another season under his belt and develops a bit more he looks to have the makings of a really good player.

So Ireland fought well but no upsets, and now have their final against Scotland, who will be a tough proposition. Whatever the result Ireland can look on their performances with pride.

Again our forwards simply were not good enough.

Our backs made mistakes but the bottom line is we have lost both games up front. The 9 who come on was better than the Mamion

I agree Geoff. I thought some of our back play was superb, if a little over elaborate at times. There is some real cutting edge and skill there and we bombed two tries which could have made a big difference. Conway and Hanaran in particular were superb.

The set piece actually went pretty well but we really struggled at the contact area. Our forwards struggled to get over the advantage line and we were also to slow to the breakdown.

Defensively we were not aggressive enough in the backs or forwards and the boks got over the advantage line far too easily.

Part of this is down to physicality but there's also an attitude aspect. Our defenders were too standoffish and seemed to lack the appetite to really put their body on the line and smash the boks. It was almost like we showed them too much respect.

Overall it was pretty frustrating as that came was there to be won if we'd concentrated for the full 80 and shown more control. Marmioms service was very poor.

It's great that we're playing such exciting rugby but ultimitely I'd rather see us play winning rugby.

geoff998rugby wrote:Again our forwards simply were not good enough.

Our backs made mistakes but the bottom line is we have lost both games up front. The 9 who come on was better than the Mamion

Thought Marmion was poor enough alright. Very slow service, the pack didn’t help him much but Du Toit did look better when he came on.

Pretty much all of the outside backs looked good, we just don’t build younglads like they do, but in time we’ll gain that physicality, the senior team hasn’t been short of grunt for a good while. With those backs playing outside a pack that has parity at the set piece and breakdown, hey forget about it!

I think it is no coincidence that McAllister is the young forward coming through at Ulster aged 21 or so whislt he peers need more time to develop.

He spent a large part of his childhood in Africa.
They just bring em up different there

geoff998rugby wrote:I think it is no coincidence that McAllister is the young forward coming through at Ulster aged 21 or so whislt he peers need more time to develop.

He spent a large part of his childhood in Africa.
They just bring em up different there

Very interesting. Though Healy made the step up early too.

geoff998rugby wrote:I think it is no coincidence that McAllister is the young forward coming through at Ulster aged 21 or so whislt he peers need more time to develop.

He spent a large part of his childhood in Africa.
They just bring em up different there

I don't know what other think but I think there is more of gym culture in other countries. In my own limited experience of colts and school boy rugby here I remember that hardly anyone did weight training and diet was never discussed. I was once praised for eating a banana on the bus before a match! Weights were a real taboo and even at U-I8's hardly anyone went to the gym.

When I played university rugby in Wales I remember being really surprised how some of the better players were taking creatine, protein supplements as well as caffeine pills before games. They weren't better players as such but there seemed to be much more awareness of weight training in some of the English and Welsh lads.

Obviously this is quite a long time ago now but I wonder what other peoples feelings on this are. I find it hard to believe that it's all just down to genetics that we are so physically overmatched at times in the under age levels.

Ireland looked good on attack, but their defense was not aggresive enough.

South africa made many mistakes on attack either by bundling the offload, or missing catches. There were a number of times where they didn't look where they passed and should have scored at least 2 more tries.

I did like the intensity and energy with which they tackled and also going into the rucks.

Overall I would say this was the best game from a spectator point of view so far.

Rodders,

I left school nearly 10 years ago now and some of the juniors and almost all of the senior team were into supplements and creatine etc and the Senior rugby teams scheduled & specialist weigth training etc.

So I dont think we lack in the professioanlism of young amateur players or the knowledge base that need to be instilled in players re diet, recovery etc. What we lack are the Afrikaaner genes.

I was looking at the Baby Blacks beat (spank) Wales, and in terms of size, while it can be said thay some players of PI decnt carry more muscle at a younger age that we dom, in terms of height we are not lacking. The Boks are and always will be exceptional in this respect and a much greater history of success in rugby compared to what is a recent phenomenon in Ireland (I refer to consistant success and the levels of excellence and consistancy that has been stablished over the last decade, rather than once off performances)

While we get the occasional young guy breaking through, I feel our players really hit their peak in the late twenties in terms of forward play. Im sure other will disagree

All the major schools in Ulster have diet and gym programmes, so why do some of these games look like men against boys?

I'd like to propose that in Ulster it's because of the School's Cup. These guys are literally playing against schoolboys using anodyne rules. Other countries' youths play for clubs, albeit in age grade rugby, but if they're good enough they get opportunities to play for the club teams - against men. So playing against men they become men and despite being the same age are far harder propositions than a counterpart just out of school.

Of course South Africa also have a far bigger pool of players to pick from so the chances of them getting bigger physical specimens of the required standard is multiplied.

I think thats the big factor Aukster. It's too easy to just put it down to genetics.

Most of it is down to genetics & lifestyle imo. The Africaaners are decended from the Dutch who are much taller in general than any other Europeans. The lifestyle thing would be that most of the Saffers grow up on farms, so they are used to physical work from an early age. They would also probably have a very good diet as there wouldn't be a McDonnells/Chipper five minutes walk away.

Similar would apply to the (European) Kiwis - most of them would come from farming stock. The Islanders just mature physically earlier.

Auk,

What you say rings true to a certain extent, but the Schools/Clubs? and Provincial academies have been producing a fairly steady stream of talent over the past 5 or 6 years. I mean 4 years ago Ireland won an U-20's 6N Grand Slam, so it cannot all be bad & deficiant.

Also, what people gloss over too much is just how important sheer weight of numbers is at age grade rugby. The higher up the gamne you go the more playing numbers become irrelivant to peak performance, but at U-20's and below, having 3 or 4 guys to choose from for each jersey makes a huge difference than when it is 1 or 2.

IWhat is weirdly almost inverse is the self actualisation of a top team (gotta love Maslow..) Taking Ireland and the All Blacks, when they have their structures right, which both currently do, their team performance makes up for the lack of numbers and in some cases even internal competition. This is seen when a core group of talented players are exposed to high level scenarios they individually & collectivally improve.

To put it another way, I'd bet Euro's to Rand that more of the Irish U-20 panl at the 2011 World champs make it to the RWC in 2015 or 2019. (and be world standard rather than the lucky ones that were hanging around the dressing room when the coach was picking the team.

Delayed gratification.....what women want

Sin what genetic studies show this?

If genetics were the main issue then we wouldn't be able to compete at senior level either.

roddersm wrote:Sin what genetic studies show this?

If genetics were the main issue then we wouldn't be able to compete at senior level either.

Every genetics study says that the average height of a Dutch male is 6'1'' and they are the talest people in the world. Irish people are catching up - average height is 5'10' now - with improved diet etc., we are becoming bigger.

I said genetics AND lifestyle contributed to their greater size.

Jean de Villiers = 6'3"
Jacque Fourie = 6'3"
Gordon D'Arcy = 5' 10"
Paddy Wallace = 5' 11"
Brian O'Driscoll = 5'10"

I have no idea how they compete with bigger players!

Edit: Lifestyle would make a difference. Kids working on the farm from the age of 5/6 are going to be fitter and stronger than kids who get driven to school every day.

Paddy McAllister is an Irishman who spent time in Africa.
If genetics why is he so different from his contempories.

OK sin fair enough. Thats actually more of an anthropometric study. Yes ok that explains height variation but not the physicality difference.

My own belief is that this is more down to the factors aukster discussed and the way we are developing young players than genetics.

I am not aware of any study which has shown Irish people to develop later physically from a genetic perspective than other nations (thats not to say that their isn't studies), yet we are continually found wanting physically at the under age levels.

roddersm wrote:OK sin fair enough. Thats actually more of an anthropometric study. Yes ok that explains height variation but not the physicality difference.

My own belief is that this is more down to the factors aukster discussed and the way we are developing young players than genetics.

I am not aware of any study which has shown Irish people to develop later physically from a genetic perspective than other nations (thats not to say that their isn't studies), yet we are continually found wanting physically at the under age levels.

Lifestyle explains the rest. If you are brought up on a farm you are more than likely going to have access to very good, wholesome food. You are also likely to be fitter & stronger because from an early age you are very physically active. Think of Willie John McBride who I suspect wasn't hitting the creatine/protein drinks! John Hayes is another who apparently never had to do a lot in the gym and is just naturally strong which has been put down to him working on the farm when he was growing up.

Sin are you really suggesting that the secret to being a top rugby player is......growing up on a farm?!!

roddersm wrote:Sin are you really suggesting that the secret to being a top rugby player is......growing up on a farm?!!

No I'm not claiming that. I'm claiming that you will be more than likely fitter and stronger. What I'm saying is that if you grow up on a farm, you are doing 'weights' from about the age of 5 - kids are involved in working on the farm (i.e., carrying buckets, pulling and dragging out of animals etc. lifting feed etc. etc.). Most city kids would be on facebook. Rugby skills have to be worked on/learned though.

Climate would also be a factor as well as I suppose. For a couple of months up here, the weather isn't conductive to be out and about, playing sport etc. Much easier to snuggle down beside the fire and keep warm.

The only recent All Blacks who came off farms are Andrew Hore and Carl Hayman. Before them, Richard Loe ...

McCaw and Carter did grow up in pretty small rural towns (Oamaru popn 13,000, Southbridge popn 720)

OK there are a few thoughts floating around that are simply misguided to be polite.

Although we have 45 million odd population, only about 20% of the population is exposed to rugby. In other words a vast majority of our kids although they may play backyard rugby which I very much doubt as football (soccer) is our most popular sport, does not get the opportunity to play competitive schools rugby.

As we all know by now that 80% odd of our population do not live in 1st world circumstances.

Also when looking at the size of players between SA and Ireland, it may shock you that apart from a 5kg weight difference per man in the forwards, there isn't that much of a difference in size.

Here is a link to the IRB junior world championships that provides a preview of Ireland vs SA

http://www.irb.com/mm/document/tournament/mediazone/02/04/37/35/2011jwcmatchstats-round2southafricavireland.pdf


Then 95% of our rugby playing population do not grow up on farms. We do have a Mcdonalds around every corner.

What may be the difference is because of our climate, our kids play outside more, which could benefit their physical development.

Having big kids does not translate into skills, as we all know the springboks are not exactly known for their flair, but rather their physicality.

But that's the point Rodders, at under age level.

Yet the same guys who played under age eventually play full senior rugby and notwithstanding our NIQ players, Munster, Ulster & Leinster compete at the to table in Europe and Ireland against South Africa in particular have a pretty good record of recent times.

If you want the reason, well coaching. Short and sweet. You cannot coach, height or weight (to a degree on the second one) nor can you coach pace, but the other variables such as fitness, stamina and technique, they are areas we excel in and they are areas that improve game on games, season on season year on year for the collective.

When was the last time an Irish ide ran out of steam in a match? Sure attrition on summer tours has its effect but they guys go for the full 80-90 mins.

We speak of not having a trad 7 and the new rules at the breakdown affecting a strength of the Irish game, ie ruck ball turnover by D'Arcy/Bod et al. That is all coaching. That is where we are world (or were) world leaders. Marry that with the ability of out backs and forwards to avoid the ground exchanges if we are being outmuscled.

This is what makes Union Union, no one style can permanently dominate. Turnover ball is king, but the defences, particuarily the second line of defence, has adapted to limit just how effective it is, but Ireland can still hurt teams.

Our guys yesterday fell off far too many tackles than could ever be deemed acceptable but one thing they got yesterday was a lesson (and video analysis today no doubt) of the do's and don't when trying to take down big game. Agains this is coaching and then experience based. BOD is one of the best tacklers in the game and he has to make them when the target player is at full tilt, as pointed out he is 5'10 (which i think is even generous having met him in Cafe en Seine a couple of years back at 5'9 I was taller than him) and he hits hard, fair and accurately, no matter what their size.

Not trying to take away from his remarkable defesive talents & commitment, but 99% of all of that can be coached. That is why we suffer for our relative size and weight at age grade and then 5 years later are not being embarressed.

I do not have the studies to hand, but I am fairly sure that figures exist in respect of physical maturity and progression of puberty in the indigenous populations on the South Pacific (and elsewhere) and comparable studies with the indidgenous populations of Europe, Asia etc. There are differences that are present within those figures, some based on lifestyle & diet and some on genetic factors.

I do not want to be labelled a racist for pointing some of these differences out (whether 'good' or 'bad') for example, the red haired gene pretty much exclusiely exists in Celtic bloodlines. Part of the mutation is a higher tolerance for alcohol and a propensity for fair skin that is much more sensitive to UV radiation.

Due to historic lifestyle differences and a much much more vegitarian based diet, the SSI population became incredibly efficient when utilising the huge energy in meat and their bodies (as all humans do) are the best at building up fat reserves for lean times. Now when the meat heavy 'western' diet arrived here circa 200 years ago, there was something of a shock to the system. Marry that to increasinly sedentary lifestyles (this applies to all of us and is a social problem either side of the equator) and you get high levels of obsesity in indigenous populations. Another example would be the higher levels of alcohol depedancy in certain ethnic groups that have only recently been exposed to said substance.

None of the above makes any one population better or worse (indeed it is often any one groups' past strength becoming a weakness)

Where does this fit into rugby, well, the factors within are control can mitigate for the aspects that are beyond are control. But that usually takes time to have an impact, be it strategic planning or coached technique. Oha nd the bulking up of Irish players takes a while too. Look at BOD in 2000 and then again in 2005 and then again in 2011. His body shape & weight have evolved to suit the game; his and that of his opponants.

My apologies here is the link with the preview, the other one is the match report.

http://www.irb.com/mm/document/tournament/mediazone/02/04/36/58/irbmatchpreview20110614irelandvsouthafrica.pdf