England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21

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Knight thinks they won't enforce the follow on. I'm not so sure.

Still two wickets needed anyway. 22 runs.

As I say I don't mind spinning pitches. I do think this one was a bit extreme : had England batted first I doubt they'd have made 329 ; but they might have made 220 and that would probably have made them favourites.
But essentially I agree :India are in this position because they've bowled a lot better and three or four batsmen played innings that England have not come near to matching. Credit where it is due...

Duty281 wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

king_carlos wrote:That just looked out live.

Not a good look from Kohli going at the umpire like that though.

As usual, Kohli has exhibited that he's a disgraceful sportsman who doesn't acknowledge or respect the spirit of the game. A shame as he's such a wonderful player in full flow.

and it counts as "against the spirit" thingy only when the home captain has a chat with the umpire not when visiting Root does the same  

As you are someone who does not understand the ideals of respect, sportsmanship or fair play - as exhibited thousands of times through your posts - I wouldn't expect you to understand this either.

And this is called adhominem argument

KP_fan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

king_carlos wrote:That just looked out live.

Not a good look from Kohli going at the umpire like that though.

As usual, Kohli has exhibited that he's a disgraceful sportsman who doesn't acknowledge or respect the spirit of the game. A shame as he's such a wonderful player in full flow.

and it counts as "against the spirit" thingy only when the home captain has a chat with the umpire not when visiting Root does the same  

As you are someone who does not understand the ideals of respect, sportsmanship or fair play - as exhibited thousands of times through your posts - I wouldn't expect you to understand this either.

And this is called adhominem argument

Indeed it is, I am glad you understand this one, unlike your misunderstanding of what constitutes a 'strawman'.

Root looked out live to be fair but umpires call on impact is not quite the same as the third umpire not bothering to check the thing you've referred for. I'd be doing away with umpires call personally, if a batsman is given out and ball tracking then has the ball missing by a millimetre there is no leeway so there shouldn't be the other way round. You either fully trust the technology or do away with it altogether, umpires call causes more issues than it solves.

India will have deservedly won the game but that doesn't mean you can't comment on the standard of the pitch or some shocking umpiring. Whether it's incompetence or something worse the Pope catch has left a very sour taste in the mouth for me, it was avoidable but whatever reason we ended up with the wrong outcome.

Bit rich Kohli complaining about a decision after some of the shockers that have gone against England.

I think Eng will do well to get 200 in this last innings. Just hope someone can make a decent score.

Man of the Match? Probably it will go to Ashwin, especially if he gets more wickets in this last innings. But how about Sharma for his big score in the first innings?

The pitch can't be that bad if ashwin can make a century although some aren't equal to a 42 by foakes

Gooseberry wrote:The pitch can't be that bad if ashwin can make a century although some aren't equal to a 42 by foakes

He isn't bowling to himself!

sirfredperry wrote:Bit rich Kohli complaining about a decision after some of the shockers that have gone against England.

I think Eng will do well to get 200 in this last innings. Just hope someone can make a decent score.

Man of the Match? Probably it will go to Ashwin, especially if he gets more wickets in this last innings. But how about Sharma for his big score in the first innings?

Yeah it will be hard to go past Ashwin. But TBH I'd still lean to giving it to Rohit as his innings on day one , on this pitch , effectively won the match for India.

Still not finished I guess. Ashwin might take five more. Or , slightly less likely , Root will make 250 not out and lead England to a record victory

Alfie - your "slightly less lightly" is one of the great quotes!

We ought to have a sweepstake on just how many (few?) England will get in this last innings. For some reason, 154 comes to mind.

I don't mind England losing, but it would be nice to go down fighting.

On another note, if Bairstow and Buttler's batting are worthy of places in the team, why not play them both AND Foakes in future XIs.

Stones contribution deserves more mention. 4/68 for Englands 5th choice away seamer (not counting Stokes) not a bad return at all. Not as good as the 3/29 he took in his first test, but has the sort of bowling average that would make Rabada blush albeit off a handful of overs.

Stone bowled well on a track not suited to him. If Archer isn't fit then I hope Stone is retained for T3. Following a tough loss I could see him missing out to Wood even if Jof doesn't make it. It's not something I agree with but following a loss and when under pressure England have tended to gravitate towards players who have been around their teams for a while.

I can see Bairstow getting a recall as well for that reason. Lawrence has an excellent chance to make that more difficult to do though.

Would it be a totally mad idea to have Bairstow opening the batting and asking him to bat as though it's a one dayer? It works for Sharma in India and their ODI records aren't that dissimilar.

king_carlos wrote:Stone bowled well on a track not suited to him. If Archer isn't fit then I hope Stone is retained for T3. Following a tough loss I could see him missing out to Wood even if Jof doesn't make it. It's not something I agree with but following a loss and when under pressure England have tended to gravitate towards players who have been around their teams for a while.

I can see Bairstow getting a recall as well for that reason. Lawrence has an excellent chance to make that more difficult to do though.

Agree he's done well Carlos/Goose, albeit I think anyone who has seen him play wouldn't doubt his ability to bowl...it is just getting him fit to actually play which has been the issue for many a year now for him. We're going to need to wait to and see how he pulls up once the test is over, before the selection debates begin!

Soul Requiem wrote:Would it be a totally mad idea to have Bairstow opening the batting and asking him to bat as though it's a one dayer? It works for Sharma in India and their ODI records aren't that dissimilar.

Depends on the track I guess? If it is like this one it might not be the worst idea in the world. He is likely to be batting three anyway. And introducing another right hander to the top instead of Burns to help counter act Ashwin makes sense. Even if he just plays his normal Test game vs spin which is good.

JDizzle wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:Would it be a totally mad idea to have Bairstow opening the batting and asking him to bat as though it's a one dayer? It works for Sharma in India and their ODI records aren't that dissimilar.

Depends on the track I guess? If it is like this one it might not be the worst idea in the world. He is likely to be batting three anyway. And introducing another right hander to the top instead of Burns to help counter act Ashwin makes sense. Even if he just plays his normal Test game vs spin which is good.

Would agree JDizzle, think it would be a decent idea if the pitches for tests 3 and 4 are going to be like the one here for the 2nd test, if they're going to be like they were for the 1st test, I think the more Sibley/Burns/Crawley top 3 approach is fine.
Only 12 overs of seam in the game from India so far, so just packing your side full of your best players of spin would make sense if you've got another bunsen. (also Burns did get out to seam in the first dig, so not exactly like the "conventional" openers are infallible to seam).
Think we noted it a few days ago Soul, there shouldn't be a stigma to a little "horses for courses" selection for batsmen, like you have for bowlers overseas too.
Might not be all gun players, but England do at least have talented backups on the sidelines.

Duty281 wrote:

king_carlos wrote:That just looked out live.

Not a good look from Kohli going at the umpire like that though.

As usual, Kohli has exhibited that he's a disgraceful sportsman who doesn't acknowledge or respect the spirit of the game. A shame as he's such a wonderful player in full flow.

Kohli's behaviour often reminds me of James Anderson! Often disgraceful from such good players.

Kohli played a determined hand with a fabulous technique. Ashwin seemed to have been seriously annoyed by all that talk about the pitch at his home ground, so took matters into his hands and shut them up. India having shown it twice, think all those pitch talks will have some greater sense of perspective now. Not an unplayable pitch really. Challenging pitch, and English batting or bowling wasn't quite up to the challenge. And a pitch made for far more entertaining cricket than was the case in the first test.
If England do not lose more than 1 or at the most 2 in the first hour, expect them to put up some fight...

JDizzle wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:Would it be a totally mad idea to have Bairstow opening the batting and asking him to bat as though it's a one dayer? It works for Sharma in India and their ODI records aren't that dissimilar.

Depends on the track I guess? If it is like this one it might not be the worst idea in the world. He is likely to be batting three anyway. And introducing another right hander to the top instead of Burns to help counter act Ashwin makes sense. Even if he just plays his normal Test game vs spin which is good.

I had thought about that. On balance going into the second innings I was thinking I'd prefer Crawley to open ahead of Burns and Bairstow at 3 ahead of Lawrence. As said a few times I was hoping Burns would prove me wrong and am still hoping Lawrence will.

I thought Rory was just starting to show his game against the spinners. Using his feet well and sweeping well at the right time. The shot he got out to was poor though, playing against the spin and closing the edge to Ashwin. He has the attributes to play in these conditions but looks well out of form.

Similar thoughts with Lawrence. Whilst streaky he was just showing the positive intent and footwork that makes him a good player of spin for Essex. Though I accept that County cricket at Chelmsford and Test cricket  at Chennai are different propositions he can play spin. Since that first inning against Sri Lanka he's just been glued to the crease though.

msp83 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

king_carlos wrote:That just looked out live.

Not a good look from Kohli going at the umpire like that though.

As usual, Kohli has exhibited that he's a disgraceful sportsman who doesn't acknowledge or respect the spirit of the game. A shame as he's such a wonderful player in full flow.

Kohli's behaviour often reminds me of James Anderson! Often disgraceful from such good players.

Jimmy's behaviour towards teammates in the field has often frustrated me when he hurls expletives at fielders but I've rarely seen much towards refs from him to be fair. Broad's simultaneous appeal/celebration nonsense without looking at the ref bugs me a bit.

For the most part Kohli doesn't upset me too much as he seems to others. Occasionally over the top wicket celebrations and send-offs for batsman can seem lacking in magnanimity but he's far from alone doing it. Then on the topic of him sometimes visibly getting after teammates (the similarity to Jimmy) that's obviously an issue for the Indian team. Usually with situations like that if the team is winnings everyone feels fine with it but if they are losing it can grate on teammates. As is so often the case in sport winning can cover many cracks and whilst Kohli has inspired the players in many ways with fitness standards and training there certainly seems a widespread argument that Rahane was better at getting the most out of some players. He's in your face Kohli but cricket has been littered with in your face characters in the past who were simply viewed as entertaining and passionate.

Shastri and Kohli both having 'animated' chats with an inexperienced and under pressure umpire after a poor decision isn't great though. I do wonder if that had been Michael Gough whether he'd have got a barrage from captain and coach.

Whilst I'd criticise England for many things in this Test I thought their response with the umpires to the DRS mix-up was pretty good. They tried to get the snicko shot rolled on to ball bouncing back towards the glove but things lost in translation perhaps led to the review for LBW being shown instead. Root then tried to ask again and when the umpire said it was time to play on they did.

I think it is still a little early to be picking the team for match three...and whatever we think , the England brains trust are likely to surprise us anyway.
They've got a fair few things right recently , even if the selection for this match seemed a bit "hopeful" ; so one might hope they will put together something that work next week. Arguably their advance pitch judgement (tricky at the best of times) will be on the ball.

By the way ; after reading Patel's almost gushing praise of Moeen for his performance in this match it is fairly clear he has been the dominant factor in pushing Mo back into the side. We can agree or disagree but it suggests England are likely to stick with him (stubbornly ? ) for the near future. I hope it pays off. But I have my doubts.

I feel Bess was hard done by but Mo has replicated his tendency of picking up wickets whilst bowling poorly. It wouldn't surprise me if you're right and England stick by him, alfie.

Overall Bess for Mo isn't why we've lost this match. The worries about top order frailty and Root not being able to score a match winning century in every first innings this winter coming home to roost.

I wouldn't be surprised if Jimmy plays the remaining two Tests which will be a big boost. Still our best exponent of reverse swing. Though Wood can also add there. Stone is better with the new ball and Wood better with the old ball I'd say so that might depend on the pitch. It would be a huge boost if Archer can play again this series.

The batting is anyone's guess and as you say they often spring surprises on us.

king_carlos wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

alfie wrote:

Duty281 wrote:I don't really see how there is any argument between Foakes and Buttler in a test sense. It might be different if one is the better keeper and the other is the better batsman, but Foakes is better at both of those disciplines.

Buttler is averaging under 35 with the bat in tests, and 35 is likely his ceiling, while Foakes (only a few tests played so far) is averaging just over 40, and 40 is around about where you'd expect him to be.

Think I'd need to see a bit more of Foakes at Test level to confirm that , Duty. He's yet to face much serious pace so some good efforts in the subcontinent don't make a firm case , in my view. Not yet , anyway.

Only 9 men average 40 or more with the bat as the designated keeper in the history of the game (minimum 1000 runs). Gilly really did a job on expectations and is still doing so! Pop quiz if anyone needs distraction to try and name the 9!

Gilly
ABdV (His average as a keeper was fantastic, good gloveman too)
Prior
Kumar (His average as a keeper was much lower but still over 40 I'd guess)
Flower

Those are my bankers.

Les Ames is the only potential one I can think of from back in the day.

Has Pant smashed his way to 1000 runs with the gloves yet?

They are all correct. ABdV averaged 57 with 7 hundreds. Obscene.

Les Ames 43.40 and Pant has 1200 runs.

The other two were Chandimal and Denis Lindsay - SA keeper in the 60s!

A touch frustrated I missed Chandimal but never would have got Lindsay.

Yep, ABdVs stats are remarkable. In the debate of best batsman across all formats he's probably in the top bracket along with IVA, Gilly, Kohli. Had Sobers played more white ball cricket he'd be in there too, probably Graeme Pollock as well but that's where comparing across the generations is so so difficult.

I remember Denis Lindsay...sensational against Australia back in the sixties. If Foakes can keep his average up after a few more matches he will join a select group. Way to go yet though.

Incidentally : a certain J Bairstow averaged over 40 consistently through his first 42 matches a s wicketkeeper - only dipped below after making a pair against Ireland ( a match he might wish he'd missed after the excitement of the ODI World Cup !) Even now he averages 37.85.

I expect Buttler to resume keeping back in England , as long as he continues to do a good job behind the stumps. But he probably needs to keep scoring heavily to justify the spot...his average as WK bat stands at a modest 33.6 from 30 games. Interesting comparison with Foakes is that he actually had an average of over 50 from his first 8 matches - before he hit a roadblock called Australia and it began to plummet. Was down as low as 26 at one point before edging up recently.

What does all this prove ? Nothing except that we maybe should beware of thinking that a few high - or low - scores in a handful of matches can be used to define a player for life. Form ebbs and flows...people can improve...different opposition can make a difference : I think we should keep an open mind on the WK spot for the present...

king_carlos wrote:I feel Bess was hard done by but Mo has replicated his tendency of picking up wickets whilst bowling poorly. It wouldn't surprise me if you're right and England stick by him, alfie.

Overall Bess for Mo isn't why we've lost this match. The worries about top order frailty and Root not being able to score a match winning century in every first innings this winter coming home to roost.

I wouldn't be surprised if Jimmy plays the remaining two Tests which will be a big boost. Still our best exponent of reverse swing. Though Wood can also add there. Stone is better with the new ball and Wood better with the old ball I'd say so that might depend on the pitch. It would be a huge boost if Archer can play again this series.

The batting is anyone's guess and as you say they often spring surprises on us.

Agree England were likely to struggle in this match once they lost the toss and no way to know whether Bess might have done any better than Mo . My problem with the view that Moeen got better as the match went on , etc - and ended up with 8 wickets for the match - is that in the crucial period of the first day he provided absolutely zero control , undermining some good bowling from Stone and Leach in particular. I would argue he was overbowled  (Root himself , even Lawrence , might have been used in short snaps) Or Stokes could have had another go despite his early two (!) over spell being fairly dismal.  But it seemed England had a "plan" involving Moeen bowling a lot of overs and they were sticking to it no matter what...

I think it is not unreasonable to suggest that this match was essentially won and lost on day one and so I tend to largely disregard performances later in the game as being of little moment.  Doesn't mean Mo "has to go"  : he did improve as the match went on ; at least to a point. (And it is fair to say he was coming off little  - well actually no - recent match practice ) But to me it is when you perform in a match that is often more important than the raw figures ; so arguments that an 8 wicket "haul" is a good result leave me rather unimpressed.

Just reading Dobell who indicates Mo is likely to be off for his home R & R break anyway after this match. If so it simplifies some issues. I would actually expect only one spinner to play the pink ball  game unless the pitch is tricked up dramatically in favour of spin - and the fact that India rested Bumrah in advance of that match suggests that may not be too likely. Apart from the obvious return of Jimmy , the rest of next week's attack could be anyone...

We will see.

Wonder how many England fans have woken up at 4 am to suffer through today ?
Hard to see much joy coming from this (presumably last) day. Have to say I feel for the players in this situation: really only personal marks that they can aspire to as defeat is inevitable sooner or later and whether it comes at lunch , tea , or ten minutes to stumps is really of little consequence : even for morale , given the way teams go up and down these days. "Momentum" is rubbish , as a general
rule.

Axar is making the ball talk . So far they haven't been good enough to edge one...

No Ashwin to start the proceedings on day 4. A bit surprising, that Kohli has gone in with Axar and Siraj and not Ashwin. Ashwin is as lethal a spinner with the new ball as you get, and you'd want him to come in and do the damage early on, as the ball is still not that old. Particularly as Root is early in his innings. And if you wanted a seamer to start off things considering Lawrence had his struggles in the last match, then it would be Ishant for me.

Siraj got a couple to reverse, but they need to bring Ashwin on soon.

Ah well, here he is! And strikes first ball!

Fine stumping from Pant too!

I suspect they'll probably be under their duvets, alfie. Maybe with the radio on low volume such that the subconscious can register it as a bad dream.

Don't know why but this already feels like Day 5 to me. Hard to believe there's still so many overs to go.
Have to say I feel for the players out there too.

Uh oh... Mr Lawrence was halfway to Christmas there. 4 down for 66.

Didn't take Ashwin long

Lawrence had played a lot better than the first innings (hard not to !) but he's got out in a dismal fashion. Great work from Pant (Foakes ? Saha ? Pah... amateurs.) But in truth he would have had ten minutes to stump him , had he needed it.

68/4 and can't see this lasting much past lunchtime...

Root is in a sweep everything mode

KP_fan wrote:Root is in a sweep everything mode

I guess with all the dust out there a broom might be as effective as a bat

Given the position I suppose it doesn't matter too much but it is clear from earlier innings that batting after about forty overs gets a lot easier ; so you'd think he should be a bit selective with the shot.

May not apply so much today : two very good spinners ; even more worn surface - and the general hopelessness of the situation. But I'm sure England would like to at least make India work for their money...

The required total down below 400 with 6 wickets in hand. We're building.

The required total down below 400 with 6 wickets in hand. We're building.

quarter century partnership and I am beginning to get worried
wicket needed asap

normalcy restored

Good showing from Root, and Stokes is slowly finding his way around. The ball has gone soft and the pitch is doing not a lot extraordinary though there is life for bowlers. Wonder what happened to all those who were moaning about the pitch?

Are the Chennai pitches drop in wickets that are cultivated outside the ground the dropped into the square before matches?

The difference in colour between the T1 wicket a few strips down and the current wicket for T2 is remarkable. The T1 wicket is that bright red soil more traditionally connected with Chennai.

Oli Pope looks either Angry or like Ian Bell

Ah Stokes gone. He was playing quite well but Ashwin's record to left-handers is outstanding so it was always going to be difficult.

Pope has had 3 starts in a row without going on to spend a significant amount of time at the crease. It would be great for his confidence and England's middle order if he could occupy the crease for some time.

Another one for Ashwin...having a decent match

Deceived Stokes nicely...bat to body and deflected to slip...not much good for my Tipping Competition ! Only eight runs and no wickets ...grrr.

90/5. Pope to venture into the killing ground now. Good luck , young Olly...

Ashwin has Stokes' number for a while home and away, and the pattern continues!

king_carlos wrote:Are the Chennai pitches drop in wickets that are cultivated outside the ground the dropped into the square before matches?

The difference in colour between the T1 wicket a few strips down and the current wicket for T2 is remarkable. The T1 wicket is that bright red soil more traditionally connected with Chennai.

Nope not drop in....India doesn't have drop ins
For this test they put a top layer of black cotton soil ( typically found in Maharashtra) on the traditional Orange soil pitch.
The traditional orange had almost looked like Roland Garros at times

KP_fan wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Are the Chennai pitches drop in wickets that are cultivated outside the ground the dropped into the square before matches?

The difference in colour between the T1 wicket a few strips down and the current wicket for T2 is remarkable. The T1 wicket is that bright red soil more traditionally connected with Chennai.

Nope not drop in....India doesn't have drop ins
For this test they put a top layer of black cotton soil ( typically found in Maharashtra) on the traditional Orange soil pitch.
The traditional orange had almost looked like Roland Garros at times  

Interesting, cheers KP. I don't think I've ever seen that big a difference between pitches on the same square before.

Yep, that red soil is really striking at times. When I was young I had a book which was just a collection of around 300 cricket photos from grounds and matches around the world. Some of the images from Indian games are so eye catching with that red soil.

Good spell from Ishant, hitting better lengths than Siraj did. He's getting some reverse... After he's done, would like to see Kuldeep given a go, a bit of an extended spell. Probably, he might be a better bet with the old, soft ball, where his skills in the air than off the pitch, might be more handy, provided he gets his lengths right.

In the continued experimentations towards a balanced pitch, one technique that has been used is to mix soil types. That's what you see on this strip.

Ishant's reverse here is showing what England missed to back up the spinners. He has developed into a very rounded bowler over the last few years.

Stone is a good bowler who I really rate but not really a reverse swing bowler. Controlling reverse is often something that bowlers master further along in their career with experience but that's especially true for English bowlers I think.

Broad is obviously a fantastic bowler but again not one who excels with reverse swing later in the innings.

England really missed having none of Anderson, Wood or Archer for this game.

msp83 wrote:Good spell from Ishant, hitting better lengths than Siraj did. He's getting some reverse... After he's done, would like to see Kuldeep given a go, a bit of an extended spell. Probably, he might be a better bet with the old, soft ball, where his skills in the air than off the pitch, might be more handy, provided he gets his lengths right.

Ishant's speed is faster and stamina better than much younger siraj
I think I wrote in the first innings that Siraj needs to improve his strength and show better speeds...else he will fall back when Yadav and shami are also back

For next game Kuldeep will be replaced by either Sundar or Hardik

msp83 wrote:Good showing from Root, and Stokes is slowly finding his way around. The ball has gone soft and the pitch is doing not a lot extraordinary though there is life for bowlers. Wonder what happened to all those who were moaning about the pitch?

With all due respect , msp , I think you and others are making a bit too much of this "moaning about the pitch" theme. Yes , a lot of people - myself included - thought , and think , that the condition of this pitch from the first day left a lot to be desired. Ask yourself honestly whether even you would be happy had England batted first , made 300 , and won the match overwhelmingly ? Not saying this would have happened : India have shown in this match that they are better equipped to perform in these conditions and might have do fared much better. But still...
I'm also on record as saying I don't really mind rank turners , now and then. In fact I prefer them to "dead" pitches like the MCG in the last Ashes Series , as an example. Just wouldn't want them every week.

India's strong batting has made this pitch look "better" than it actually is , in my view. And that is down to (a) the brilliance of Rohit (b) some good support from the three other bats who managed to cope with the conditions well enough to pass twenty (c) some mediocre English bowling. (That's the first innings. The second , as I'm sure you recognise , was more down to the fielding team having been mentally shot by lunch yesterday)
Doesn't make it a "good" pitch. I've seen worse. What the ICC assessors will make of it we will see in due course. But again , I do not blame the pitch for the result. Clear ?

msp83 wrote:In the continued experimentations towards a balanced pitch, one technique that has been used is to mix soil types. That's what you see on this strip.

That's interesting to know, thanks msp.

Whilst I don't think it's been the a good Test pitch there have been interesting things about. One is that I don't think over the first 3 days it played massively differently for the spinners. It turned much more than you'd really want on day 1, especially with the harder ball biting through the top soil but it was then behaving similarly for the spinners on day 3.

A common defence of green seaming wickets in England is that whilst they are tough for batting on day 1 they frequently play better on days 2 and 3. Hence the common reference to wickets at Lords flattening out in the middle of Tests for a period.

Whereas wickets that turn big on day 1 usually then turn bigger on day 2, then day 3, etc. I do think this pitch had more uneven bounce and turn on day 1 than a Test pitch should but that level of uneven bounce and turn stayed fairly similar for most of day 2 and 3. Which is quite unusual with Bunsens.

pope gone