England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21

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Knight thinks they won't enforce the follow on. I'm not so sure.

Still two wickets needed anyway. 22 runs.

As I say I don't mind spinning pitches. I do think this one was a bit extreme : had England batted first I doubt they'd have made 329 ; but they might have made 220 and that would probably have made them favourites.
But essentially I agree :India are in this position because they've bowled a lot better and three or four batsmen played innings that England have not come near to matching. Credit where it is due...

I don't want us to bat 2nd time.
Get Eng for 170odd
Score 370 and win by an inning and 50runs ....would be the script from here

Fine session for India. Axar doing a fine job and Ashwin was getting better by the over. Bumrah not on his A game but Ishant was disciplined early on and got the early breakthrough. Hope Washington, with his quickish offspin, would get a go and would do well. The lad could do with some confidence with his bowling, he's a cricketer with great potential...

India's session, Crawley played well but otherwise not a lot from England. Sibley a very soft dismissal in particular.

Axar has been superb again, using both his pace and natural variation to get some going into batsmen and the odd one to turn away sharply. Ashwin grew into the session too...

Early signs are England might regret going with only Leach...but ultimately the makeup of their bowling doesn't matter if they're going to be scoring under 200 in the first innings with the bat. Need Stokes/Pope/Foakes to pull off something special in the afternoon and evening session here

Ben Stokes still out there and in Ben Foakes, their best batsman against spin is yet to come. Will have to see what the ball would do for spinners after it gets oldish. So England can still come out of this, but would require lots of skill and application...

Its noticeable how Indian spinners and planners have worked out and blocked Root's hundreds of run fetching sweep.
He couldn't even attempt a sweep or slog sweep....and didn't connect the reverse sweep

eirebilly wrote:England really struggling now. The track does not look too bad to me...

Hi Billy - yep, a struggle for sure now. From a fairly comfortable 74/2 with 2 batsmen, including Root, well set to a very worrying 81/4 at the first break. Adding to the concern, India only 2 wickets away from the long England tail.

No issues with the track at this admittedly early stage. Principally good bowling, especially from the slow men.

Outrageous ball from Ashwin. Like Root, Pope never looked settled in his (shorter) stay at the crease, and it's little surprise to see him depart cheaply.

Now it's trouble. Stokes special required.

England batting *horrifically* here, on top of some superb variations from Ashwin/Axar. Game is essentially already over

Oh dear...

Had to go off for half an hour and came back after lunch in time to see four down and now Pope following...all looking clueless against the spinners.

This has all the hallmarks of a disaster. Unless the bowlers can work miracles later KP_fan is going to be unbearable

Appears India have judged the pitch better than the tourists.

Actually, it wasn't outrageous, it was fairly regulation. Pope played down the wrong line. Looked horrible on the replay.

I can fully see Englands plan now. Win the toss, bat for the first two sessions only, and then we can bowl in the prime evening conditions that will suit our bowlers. We can skittle them out tonight, and do the same tomorrow.

Genius (wheres the sarcasm emoji?)

alfie wrote:

Appears India have judged the pitch better than the tourists.

I don't think england judged the pitch at all. I think India picked based on what they think the pitch will do and England picked based on what they think the ball will do

As long as England's bats refuse to use their feet against the Indian spinners they are always going to be in trouble.
Stokes joins the procession...wonder if they will make 120 ?

KP_fan wrote:I don't want us to bat 2nd time.
Get Eng for 170odd
Score 370 and win by an inning and 50runs ....would be the script from here

script upgraded :
Let's Get Eng for 120

Missing straight ones on the back foot isn't a good idea...

Tough one for Stokes, though more poor footwork. England are sinking rapidly with four lost for seven (?) runs.

Will Jofra finally deliver something with the bat?

Axar and Ashwin have bowled well, putting the ball in good areas but Bairstow, Crawley, Pope and Stokes have effectively missed straight balls.

It is rather good bowling from the Indians but my goodness there is no foot movement from the English batsmen.

England will do well to reach 120 from here.

Ashwin and Patel have bowled ok but this has largely been a collapse from batsman error.

Afro wrote:

alfie wrote:

Appears India have judged the pitch better than the tourists.

I don't think england judged the pitch at all. I think India picked based on what they think the pitch will do and England picked based on what they think the ball will do

England never seem to judge the pitch Rule one in India is always assume Spin will be King. But if they bat like this it matters little.

Crawley played well - though I didn't like his dismissal from the replay. The rest of them...horrible.

Not that this looks like a minefield. Spinning , yes. But hardly unplayable. Knew it would be tough against these good spinners but I thought they would handle things a lot better than this... 86/6 is nightmare territory.

74-2 to 81-6. Diabolical even by some of England's recent collapses.

It's the set-up deliveries that are doing it. England batsmen are missing straight balls because they're anticipating turn. They're anticipating turn because Ashwin and Patel are mixing it up well. Ashwin and Patel are mixing it up well because they're being allowed to dictate proceedings by continuously landing the ball in the same spot. They're landing it in the same spot because England's batsmen are not being proactive enough with their footwork to disrupt the lengths of the spinners. Poor stuff.

But England are far from out of this test.

king_carlos wrote:Axar and Ashwin have bowled well, putting the ball in good areas but Bairstow, Crawley, Pope and Stokes have effectively missed straight balls.

Pope has failed to reach 40 in his last seven Test innings (all completed). Some sympathy for him - coming back from injury and sometimes losing his wicket chasing quick runs. However, sympathy plus his good work at short leg won't keep him in the side indefinitely. Expect knives to be out if he doesn't get a score second dig.

king_carlos wrote:74-2 to 81-6. Diabolical even by some of England's recent collapses.

This test is pretty much done. 93-7

Duty281 wrote:It's the set-up deliveries that are doing it. England batsmen are missing straight balls because they're anticipating turn. They're anticipating turn because Ashwin and Patel are mixing it up well. Ashwin and Patel are mixing it up well because they're being allowed to dictate proceedings by continuously landing the ball in the same spot. They're landing it in the same spot because England's batsmen are not being proactive enough with their footwork to disrupt the lengths of the spinners. Poor stuff.

But England are far from out of this test.

That is true. The really annoying thing is that , once again , England are not only not making solid runs but are losing bulk wickets before the ball softens. So missing the chance to put some pressure back on the bowlers later on...
Archer's little fling ends at 11 and its 93/7. Have to say he must be close to the worst batsman ever to bat at eight for England in my lifetime : though he did better than a few of his mates today !

Not sure if your last line will hold up , Duty Unless they could convince Leach he is playing against Ireland ?

Ah here now, this going from bad to worse for England. Potentially have lost this test in 2 sessions...

In this game India has seemingly a better No. 8 thru 11 with the bat than Eng

guildfordbat wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Axar and Ashwin have bowled well, putting the ball in good areas but Bairstow, Crawley, Pope and Stokes have effectively missed straight balls.

Pope has failed to reach 40 in his last seven Test innings (all completed). Some sympathy for him - coming back from injury and sometimes losing his wicket chasing quick runs. However, sympathy plus his good work at short leg won't keep him in the side indefinitely. Expect knives to be out if he doesn't get a score second dig.

Still early days for Pope. And I think he has a lot of talent. But to be quite honest I do not rate him a particularly good player of spin , on what I've seen of him in Tests.
As I say , early days. But he needs to work on that aspect of his game.

In truth the events of these last couple of games suggest some of the optimism surrounding this new improved youthful batting lineup may have been a little overdone , perhaps ? Will watch the second innings with a lot of interest to see if they're learning...

98-8

Show England any left arm spinner and they crumble, the pitch isn't a minefield in the slightest. The only feint hope is that Anderson is lethal under the lights which is a possibility.

KP_fan wrote:In this game India has seemingly a better No. 8 thru 11 with the bat than Eng

Undoubtably. Although Leach has a ninety , Anderson an eighty , and Broad a 167 ; you don't expect them to produce those figures today

Do wonder how Archer gets to bat ahead of them all though ! His 11 today must be nearly his Test best so far...

Eng need 20 -30 run partnership somewhere from these last 2 wickets
they are sinking deeper and deeper inot a hole .....Foakes neds to use feet and play shots

alfie wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Axar and Ashwin have bowled well, putting the ball in good areas but Bairstow, Crawley, Pope and Stokes have effectively missed straight balls.

Pope has failed to reach 40 in his last seven Test innings (all completed). Some sympathy for him - coming back from injury and sometimes losing his wicket chasing quick runs. However, sympathy plus his good work at short leg won't keep him in the side indefinitely. Expect knives to be out if he doesn't get a score second dig.

Still early days for Pope. And I think he has a lot of talent. But to be quite honest I do not rate him a particularly good player of spin , on what I've seen of him in Tests.
As I say , early days. But he needs to work on that aspect of his game.

In truth the events of these last couple of games suggest some of the optimism surrounding this new improved youthful batting lineup may have been a little overdone , perhaps ?  Will watch the second innings with a lot of interest to see if they're learning...

I don't think so Alfie - for most of them it's their first overseas winter on the subcontinent, and while they're not consistently churning them out...there have been flashes of their undoubted potential with some good innings. They're also up against the #1 team in the world!

Think it's fairly obvious they all have a long way to go against spin, but this should be a good learning experience for them. And it's not entirely surprising they have a long way to go against spin, they just don't see enough of it in the county game

Soul Requiem wrote:Show England any left arm spinner and they crumble, the pitch isn't a minefield in the slightest. The only feint hope is that Anderson is lethal under the lights which is a possibility.

Which is why England are still in this contest. They're well capable of shooting out India for 150, though these circumstances are far from ideal!

There are some mitigating factors for englands failings with the bat but the simple fact is that the selections at 8-11 won't be the reason they will lose this test.

The top 6 have been collectively poor since that first innings of the series. Even in SL ( and that one innings here) they absolutely rode of Root being in the form of his life which papered over the cracks.

To have any hope they don't just need the bowlers to come to the party but also a much better effort from that top 6 second time around.

Pakistan won a Test in India in 1987 after being shot out for 116 in the first innings. So 15 more runs and it is game on.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/pakistan-tour-of-india-1986-87-61523/india-vs-pakistan-5th-test-63456/full-scorecard

Soul Requiem wrote:Show England any left arm spinner and they crumble, the pitch isn't a minefield in the slightest. The only feint hope is that Anderson is lethal under the lights which is a possibility.

The left arm attack does mess with their heads , doesn't it ? Pity Bairstow got out before he got started today - he and Root managed (twice) to take the edge off Embuldeniya in Sri Lanka and England were able to go on to good scores.
Of course Axar has Ashwin for company rather than the rather pedestrian Sri Lankan back up cast. But I fancy if England could make them bowl for a couple of sessions instead of collapsing in forty overs they might have a chance...

Foakes hanging in well . But hard to see the remaining batting ekeing out too many more runs.

guildfordbat wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Axar and Ashwin have bowled well, putting the ball in good areas but Bairstow, Crawley, Pope and Stokes have effectively missed straight balls.

Pope has failed to reach 40 in his last seven Test innings (all completed). Some sympathy for him - coming back from injury and sometimes losing his wicket chasing quick runs. However, sympathy plus his good work at short leg won't keep him in the side indefinitely. Expect knives to be out if he doesn't get a score second dig.

Agreed there Guildford. He has a lot of talent and I expect Pope to have a long Test career but like many young players he has hit a speed bump and he may need time in the middle away from the Test spotlight to kick on again. Hopefully he can get a score in second dig.

JDizzle wrote:Pakistan won a Test in India in 1987 after being shot out for 116 in the first innings. So 15 more runs and it is game on.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/pakistan-tour-of-india-1986-87-61523/india-vs-pakistan-5th-test-63456/full-scorecard

Wasim at 7 with a long tail too. The similarities are uncanny. 

Iqbal Qasim took 999 first-class wickets. So close yet so far.

Hi Olly

Yes I take your point about having to learn against spin. My concern is they do not show much sign of learning yet

As for the flashes of potential I am not sure that I've seen too many on these tours. Sibley made one fighting (though rather lucky) fifty in Galle ; Crawley today played well. Sibley and Stokes got runs in the first match here : but that was a road first two days.

Not writing them off by any means ; but I'm still more than a little disappointed with the batting - apart from Root , of course . Hoping the remaining three innings are an improvement.

Wouldn't mind giving Foakes a promotion ahead of Pope for the next innings.

JDizzle wrote:Pakistan won a Test in India in 1987 after being shot out for 116 in the first innings. So 15 more runs and it is game on.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/pakistan-tour-of-india-1986-87-61523/india-vs-pakistan-5th-test-63456/full-scorecard

That was gavaskar's last test and that was a minfield of a pitch on D1.......no where close to this
and Pak has Intikhab Alam and Tauseef Ahmed ...both far superior to Englan's one spinner and Akram had one super reverse spell

Duty281 wrote:Wouldn't mind giving Foakes a promotion ahead of Pope for the next innings.

Seeing as Pope will be playing in the fourth test and will be playing in the summer I don't think that sends out a very good message.

Pope batting at 6 is a potentially two fold problem though, he's either coming in when the team are under severe pressure like today or coming in with the team well set. For a young player it's difficult to judge the situation, do I stick or twist, instead he's getting caught inbetween.

sorry Iqbal Qasim and not Intikhab alam

If ball swings prodigiously under lights...you could expect India to squeeze out 270-300ish
and if it doesn't...then 370-400 is on cards on this pitch

Tufnell saying England can't let India get any more than 300 or they're out of the game. No, Tuffers, India making 300 would put England out of it. They need to keep India below 200!

Foakes might as well swing the bat here, try add a quick 20-30

Meanwhile, Swann takes appalling to a new level.

Ah yes, England were 74/2 at one point!

Desperate to find a positive - we have 25 minutes to bowl at 'em before the second break. A couple of wickets then would at least be handy.