England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21

First topic message reminder :

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Wake up to hear Swann doing an Aussie impression. Can this be over in two days again?

Is that what it was? Couldn't fool me...

p.s. it was a 'nowhere in particular' accent.

Soul Requiem wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:Hi Alfie and all - I wasn't convinced there was enough evidence to overturn the onfield ''out'' decision.

Anyway, backs up my/our view for some time that there hasn't been ''cheating'' by the homers.

It doesn't somehow erase the hometown decisions that have occured.

The one to Rahane was admitted as a mistake within half an hour and the review given back.

The two Rohit stumpings were very tight decisions.

The Stokes catch was definitely the right call, he grassed a regulation chance.

Has one of these umpires insulted Margaret Thatcher at some point to get this much ire from you soul?

Soul Requiem wrote:I don't buy into the idea that Pope was unlucky, he was caught because he edged it, if he middles it there's not a problem.

I tend to agree. Pope was unfortunate how the ball lobbed up off his back pad to Gill. However, even without the bat edge, Gill could still have (attempted to) run him out - Pope did similar earlier this series. Furthermore, if the ball had missed the pad it would have presented a chance for Pant to take his pick between a catch and a stumping!

Whatever way you look at it, things have not been going Pope's way for some time.

Get in there Jimmy.

Yes Jimmy. That's a fantastic ball in the first over and just looked out.

Review...

Umpires call so Gill goes. Exactly the start England need. Gets at Pujara early with Jimmy fresh and the new ball moving a hint.

Nice start for Jimmy

king_carlos wrote:
The one to Rahane was admitted as a mistake within half an hour and the review given back.

The two Rohit stumpings were very tight decisions.

The Stokes catch was definitely the right call, he grassed a regulation chance.

Has one of these umpires insulted Margaret Thatcher at some point to get this much ire from you soul?

What difference does giving the review back make? The wrong decision was made despite the England captain specifically saying why he had reviewed, that goes beyond incompetence. You see two tight stumpings, I see two clear dismissals and snap decisions at that, there was no inclination from the third umpire to give either out.

Not sure what politics has to do with this to be honest and is nothing more than a childish jibe.

alfie wrote:Nice start for Jimmy

Stokes from the other end or open with Leach is the question?

With Pujara in early and a worse record against seam than spin I reckon I'd take a punt on Stokes.

A bit all over the shop from Stokes in that first over. He's not bowled much and had a stomach bug so not a huge surprise but still a concern given England's punt on selection.

Think fair enough to try Stokes for the start. A bit in this pitch for the seamers , as we saw when India were bowling. Leach will have plenty of work to do later : might as well give the pace men a chance in what ought to be their best window of opportunity...

How to handle Jimmy in this innings will be an issue for Root. The Indian batsmen fear nobody ; but they have a healthy respect for Anderson and even when he's not bagging a lot of wickets he can offer control and pressure.

Here's Leach now...

Yep, I agree that giving Stokes a chance was the right call but glad they've gone to Leach early.

Leach will need to bowl really well in this first innings I feel.

A fourth maiden in a row for Jimmy. The man is a marvel.

king_carlos wrote:Yep, I agree that giving Stokes a chance was the right call but glad they've gone to Leach early.

Leach will need to bowl really well in this first innings I feel.

Indeed he will. The worst thing would be if Rohit were to take to him early and hit him out of the firing line...not a lot of options if that were to happen !

If England can grab a couple more scalps early on I reckon they might get by OK with three main bowlers and a bit of part time back up. But if India get off to a really good start

Ha...I hadn't realised it was so near to the close of play. Only three more overs ...

Used to England being bowled out in two sessions , I guess

Accounts for Rohit being so restrained so far. Leach bowling a bit too short for mine...

No ball first up for Bess probably isn't the best sign...

Bess faces a bit of a battle with his confidence , perhaps ; after being rather harshly discarded a couple of games back. And the no ball wasn't the best start. But a couple of nice deliveries later in the over , so hopefully he will be in a positive mood tomorrow.

England would have hoped for more than one wicket tonight , especially after getting Gill so early. But at least they start tomorrow with a ball only twelve overs old , and a fresh crack at these two.

India's day , again. Game not over : but England will need a good second day - just for a start !

Well England crossed 200, I see. Bit of an odd selection, but at least they have something to bowl at. Couple of quick wickets tomorrow will put them on the front-foot. Nice to see Lawrence get a few runs as well.

alfie wrote:

India's day , again. Game not over : but England will need a good second day - just for a start !

Happened in T3. It can happen again. Can't it? Tell me it can?

alfie wrote:Bess faces a bit of a battle with his confidence , perhaps ; after being rather harshly discarded a couple of games back. And the no ball wasn't the best start. But a couple of nice deliveries later in the over , so hopefully he will be in a positive mood tomorrow.

England would have hoped for more than one wicket tonight , especially after getting Gill so early. But at least they start tomorrow with a ball only twelve overs old , and a fresh crack at these two.

India's day , again. Game not over : but England will need a good second day - just for a start !

Bess has regressed since leaving Somerset

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

alfie wrote:

India's day , again. Game not over : but England will need a good second day - just for a start !

Happened in T3. It can happen again. Can't it? Tell me it can?

Well it could. Ball is turning : if the spinners can get their lengths right they can trust even good batsmen...and Anderson will be reliable as ever. Trouble is even if they restrict India they have then to bat again on a pitch that presumably will be getting trickier...

But that's a long way off. First job is to bowl well in the morning and see where it goes , eh ? At least I am thankful they got 200 this time !

India's day pretty comfortably, thought it was actually as good as they've bowled all series today. Siraj and Axar were superb.

A missed opportunity for England, the pitch really wasn't too difficult and the risk they took in stacking the team with batsmen paid off when they won the toss on it...just failed to convert it into a worthwhile score. I think they might be a good 100 runs short of a par score in the first innings, and will take either the pitch "going" tomorrow or something special from Leach or Bess to drag them back into it.

Fear it might be a long day though. Not often the likes of Pujara don't contribute a serious score during a series, and he looked pretty comfortable out there tonight...

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

alfie wrote:

India's day , again. Game not over : but England will need a good second day - just for a start !

Happened in T3. It can happen again. Can't it? Tell me it can?

Hi Tino,

It can.

That doesn't mean it will though. You'll need to check with KP-f now for the scores at the end of days 2 and 3.

Duty281 wrote:Well England crossed 200, I see. Bit of an odd selection, but at least they have something to bowl at. Couple of quick wickets tomorrow will put them on the front-foot. Nice to see Lawrence get a few runs as well.

Unusual selection , indeed. Helped to get the score up over 200 at least ...at the cost of a second seamer : will that be a serious missing part on this ? We will see...

Crossed my mind that this might have been the ideal selection for the Pink Ball Match

There's definitely a part of me that is really excited to see Pope and Lawrence making runs in tandem again. Feels like those two going together, especially in more comfortable surroundings, would be a joy to watch bat.

guildfordbat wrote:You'll need to check with KP-f now for the scores at the end of days 2 and 3.

Was that his first set of predictions or his second? Never sure which ones to follow.

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:There's definitely a part of me that is really excited to see Pope and Lawrence making runs in tandem again. Feels like those two going together, especially in more comfortable surroundings, would be a joy to watch bat.

I'd add Crawley (do you think his locker room nickname is Creepy or does John Crawley still own that one?) to that list.

When he gets going he is lovely to watch.

I'm not too disheartened by the days play; Sibley and Crawley unfortunately don't have the technique to deal with left arm spin but if only briefly Pope and Lawrence both showed progression without pushing on. Stokes seems to be struggling for long term concentration at the moment while Root is understandably frazzled. The team will look back and overall be pleased with winning three on the trot before India decided to push the boundaries (going too far in my opinion) of what is an acceptable pitch to produce. It shouldn't produce any long term issues at home.

guildfordbat wrote:

That doesn't mean it will though. You'll need to check with KP-f now for the scores at the end of days 2 and 3.

I expect India will finish about 270 to 280 for 7 tomm
and then 330 a.o on 3rd morning
Eng will get another near 200 ish odd in second inning finishing on D3 or just start of D4
India wraps it up by end of first session on D4 by 9 wickets or so

Off-course any one of 4 England spinners  i.e Root, Lawrence, Leach or Bess can can throw water over that script by picking up a 5-fer tomm morning on this non-turner

Soul Requiem wrote:I'm not too disheartened by the days play; Sibley and Crawley unfortunately don't have the technique to deal with left arm spin but if only briefly Pope and Lawrence both showed progression without pushing on. Stokes seems to be struggling for long term concentration at the moment while Root is understandably frazzled. The team will look back and overall be pleased with winning three on the trot before India decided to push the boundaries (going too far in my opinion) of what is an acceptable pitch to produce. It shouldn't produce any long term issues at home.

I haven't seen, but I am presuming Root is going home after this test and missing the white ball stuff? (I might have missed the official ODI squad announcement)
He's had a bloody fantastic winter, and essentially single handedly kept the batting afloat in Sri Lanka and the first test here...but does look like he could do with a few weeks away from the bubble and all the pressures that captaincy brings.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:I'm not too disheartened by the days play; Sibley and Crawley unfortunately don't have the technique to deal with left arm spin but if only briefly Pope and Lawrence both showed progression without pushing on. Stokes seems to be struggling for long term concentration at the moment while Root is understandably frazzled. The team will look back and overall be pleased with winning three on the trot before India decided to push the boundaries (going too far in my opinion) of what is an acceptable pitch to produce. It shouldn't produce any long term issues at home.

I haven't seen, but I am presuming Root is going home after this test and missing the white ball stuff? (I might have missed the official ODI squad announcement)
He's had a bloody fantastic winter, and essentially single handedly kept the batting afloat in Sri Lanka and the first test here...but does look like he could do with a few weeks away from the bubble and all the pressures that captaincy brings.

As far as I can see, England haven't announced the ODI squad yet. They have announced the T20 squad and Root isn't in it, so presume he won't be in the ODIs either.

where I live I get the broadcast from both Channel-4 and Indian Yupp TV

I prefer Yupp-TV;
Because it's about a ball ahead in telecast  and India lost the game that I  did not watch on Yupp i.e T1

But Channel-4 starts it's morning coverage 15 min  earlier as it has a studio team.....a nice looking, smartly speaking woman  who when she asked Strauss's view on Eng's team , he answered something like:
Looks like Eng picked now the team for the last test match
Very apt......and I would add, further Eng picked the bowling unit due for the fourth test already in the third

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:There's definitely a part of me that is really excited to see Pope and Lawrence making runs in tandem again. Feels like those two going together, especially in more comfortable surroundings, would be a joy to watch bat.

I'd add Crawley (do you think his locker room nickname is Creepy or does John Crawley still own that one?) to that list.

When he gets going he is lovely to watch.

Yeah, I like Crawley a lot too. Few in there with lovely technique, bit of Root-like grace across a few of them now. Good mix, need some muscle, some technique and some stubborn defence across a line up. And at least one player with glaring technical issues who gets picked anyway.

I would go with Mark Wright as his nickname, in honour of Crawley Town's new hero.

India are definitely ahead but I really can't tell how far ahead yet. It wouldn't surprise me if this pitch starts breaking down quickly and gets tougher for batting, but it also wouldn't surprise me if once the ball softens and things slow down a couple of this India top 6 made centuries. This series has completely shot my confidence in watching the game so I can certainly understand some of the England players looking shot from playing in it.

It all depends, really, on when the pitch 'goes', as it were. Based on recent experience, I think I'm marginally happier with England's position than India's. India's batting has hardly been brilliant through the series, either, which has been mostly down to the sub-standard pitches. Two or three wickets in the opening hour tomorrow and England will be in a good position.

I've had those levels of optimism knocked out of me just now Duty!

2 or 3 quick wickets would definitely swing things but that's almost always the case.

I'm really interested to see how the England spinners do as the ball softens. The seamers will get less that is guaranteed but once the ball has softened so that the turn and bounce is a bit slower the India spinners have kept taking wickets (and controlling the RR) through excellent consistency and variation. Leach and Bess will need to bowl at their best to match that.

England will need to get a Kohli early on, ideally whilst the ball is hard enough for Jimmy to still be an option.

I see from doing some further reading that England were going to pick Archer for this test, but he was ruled out late on by yet another occurrence of an elbow injury. Becoming a very big concern and it may eliminate him from the test game entirely, forcing him to be a limited-overs specialist in order to preserve his fitness.

And apparently Stokes revealed he's battling a stomach illness currently, which has been sweeping through the England camp, which may further hinder his ability to bowl.

Good opening day for India. England again under-achieved with the bat, too many unconverted starts, Stokes, Lawrence, Pope, Bairstow...
Axar and Ashwin bowled very well yet again. Excellent support from Siraj, and even Ishant, though he didn't get any wickets bowled well.
Gill, after that first test, hasn't really managed to build a score. Pujara looked comfortable in the middle, and even outscored Rohit. Rohit showed good temperament more than anything else, not trying anything silly and played the day out quietly and ensured India's best batsman of the series is out there to continue the fight. With Rohit, you can't even take each innings as it comes, has to be each ball probably. Might end up holding out first ball tomorrow, but so far, this series has seen a somewhat different Rohit, he seems to have worked on that temperament of his...
Virat and Pujara are due a big score, they both haven't scored too many hundreds of late. Tomorrow would be an excellent setting to change that. Hopefully, India would bat properly, listen to the skipper, defend well and only then play their shots.
The pitch seemed the most sporting for the series, keeping everyone interested, spin, bit of swing, bounce, and value for shots and reward for good technique and temperament. Lets see how it goes tomorrow.

Duty281 wrote:I see from doing some further reading that England were going to pick Archer for this test, but he was ruled out late on by yet another occurrence of an elbow injury. Becoming a very big concern and it may eliminate him from the test game entirely, forcing him to be a limited-overs specialist in order to preserve his fitness.

A stress fracture in the elbow of your bowling arm is a really nasty injury. He will need managing extremely carefully. It's been discussed a lot already but I'm not sure England have utilised him that well in Tests by asking him to bang it in short too often. To me he is a excellent seamer that can bowl fast similar to Ryan Harris or Pat Cummins rather than an out and out pace bowler such as Brett Lee.

msp83 wrote:Good opening day for India. England again underachieved with the bat, too many unconverted starts, Stokes, Lawrence, Pope, Bairstow...

This is the crux of the issue for England, a complete lack of big partnerships to take pressure off the batsman and put it onto the bowlers. That is now 6 consecutive innings that England have batted without a fifty partnership. Pretty staggering.

The India bowling attack is impressive though. Over recent years we have seen that the core 6 bowlers of Ashwin and Jadeja as spinners then Bumrah, Ishant, Yadav and Shami are a very good attack. Over the last couple of series they have shown even better depth than though. Axar has been excellent. Siraj I am very impressed by. Washington Sundar is a very talented cricketer. Then Shardul Thakur had an excellent T4 in Australia. Quite some depth.

Duty281 wrote:I see from doing some further reading that England were going to pick Archer for this test, but he was ruled out late on by yet another occurrence of an elbow injury. Becoming a very big concern and it may eliminate him from the test game entirely, forcing him to be a limited-overs specialist in order to preserve his fitness.

That is often the case with those who try to bowl faster than their body-mechanics warrants them to.
Bhuhvneshwar, Irfan Pathan Ryan Harris , Shane watson....all fall in that category.
It would be a pity....Archer is  very exciting ....BUT at the same time test cricket is ruthless

Jimmy Anderson's wicket today took his bowling average in India to below 30. Hope he can keep it there in what will be his final Test in India!

Whilst looking this up, I caught the bowling averages of some either seamers vs India in India - and yes, we were all thinking it, but Matthew Hoggard does have a lower bowling average in India than Malcolm Marshall (22 @ 23.31 to 36 @ 24.61). Obvious really!

JDizzle wrote:Jimmy Anderson's wicket today took his bowling average in India to below 30. Hope he can keep it there in what will be his final Test in India!

Whilst looking this up, I caught the bowling averages of some either seamers vs India in India - and yes, we were all thinking it, but Matthew Hoggard does have a lower bowling average in India than Malcolm Marshall (22 @ 23.31 to 36 @ 24.61). Obvious really!

Hoggy was one of the biggest hearted cricketers I've watched for England. Up there with Gough and Willis in the run through a brick wall mould.

I reckon a lot of fans would be surprised to hear he took more wickets than Harmison and Flintoff at a better average and strike rate.

JDizzle wrote:Jimmy Anderson's wicket today took his bowling average in India to below 30. Hope he can keep it there in what will be his final Test in India!

Whilst looking this up, I caught the bowling averages of some either seamers vs India in India - and yes, we were all thinking it, but Matthew Hoggard does have a lower bowling average in India than Malcolm Marshall (22 @ 23.31 to 36 @ 24.61). Obvious really!

Hoggard discovered reverse and in one inning ran through Indian line up on a really flat deck....I saw that game.
he bowled fast then....88-90 mph as i recollect ...and could bowl long spells and captain Hussain had said.......Hoggard can run through a wall for his captain
He made debut in India I think

Quality bowler given the conditions was Hoggard, a couple of defining overseas performances too against India and South Africa. I enjoyed watching him bowl more than anyone in 2005 particularly to the left handers. Was such a simple gameplan, over the wicket, pitch inline, straighten, lbw, lovely stuff.

Yep, Hoggard got at Hayden a few times in the '05 Ashes which put the cat amongst the pigeons for their vaunted batting lineup.

Hoggy to Hayden with two catchers in front of the bat on the off-side and Flintoff to Gilchrist from around the wicket were great tactical plans that came off.

Up until the fifth and final Test when Langer and Hayden both got centuries it's remarkable to think that only Ponting had a scored a century for Australia. One century in 8 innings from that batting lineup. England in the same time scored 4 through Vaughan, Strauss x2 and Flintoff.

That rearguard ton from Ponting at Old Trafford remains one of the very best I've ever seen though to be fair. In the early noughties from around 2000-2007 Punters record was superlative. His leaner later years sometimes makes people forget that I think. Probably the best player of fast bowling I've seen.

Soul Requiem wrote:Quality bowler given the conditions was Hoggard, a couple of defining overseas performances too against India and South Africa. I enjoyed watching him bowl more than anyone in 2005 particularly to the left handers. Was such a simple gameplan, over the wicket, pitch inline, straighten, lbw, lovely stuff.

Him having the wood over Hayden was so crucial to that series. Hayden had set the tone for that Aussie team to be ‘bullies’ for years. And a Hoggard for him 3/9 times. Perfect foil stylistically to Harmison.

Hat trick in the Windies too!

For all his faults as a pundit, Vaughan really did know his stuff as captain and alongside Fletcher did a lot of work analysing potential weaknesses. The Hayden plan was pretty leftfield but worked to perfection.

When Vaughan is commentating live I think some of that tactical nous does come through. When he's chatting over a Test after a days play or during a break he just checks which way the wind's blowing and chucks stuff in that direction. TMS not having broadcast rights to cover this series too much so they're just chatting over the days play whilst watching on TV has brought out the worst in Vaughan in some ways in that regard.

I remember a Hayden interview about those field placements where he chatted about how he regretted not just backing himself to hit the ball through those catchers and playing like they weren't there. Those field placements and the swinging ball did for him.

Vaughan and Fletcher were a great combination. People often talk about good coaches and captains but not as much about the two needing to have similar views on how to play the game for a partnership to really work between them. Strauss and Flower were a very like minded combination that worked well for very different reasons to Vaughan and Fletcher for instance.

I never know how much credit to ascribe to either Fletcher or Vaughan. It’s tough for anyone to say I guess, if you weren’t in that team room, in who came up with those plans. I am no fan of Vaughan so will give Fletcher 90% of the credit!

Vaughan was undoubtedly an excellent man manager. Or certainly perfect for that team. You hear guys like Harmison and Flintoff talk now, and they were were terrified of Nasser! Not saying he was wrong, as the England team he inherited needed a rocket up them. But Vaughan was the perfect man to take them forward after that. I know it sounds ridiculous that on one of the many Ashes documentary’s, Vaughan basically takes credit for KPs knock by saying he told him to go out there and bash 158. But he does deserve either credit for creating the atmosphere that allowed people to play like that.

When you have quality players, man management > tactical nous anyway.

JDizzle wrote:Jimmy Anderson's wicket today took his bowling average in India to below 30. Hope he can keep it there in what will be his final Test in India!

Whilst looking this up, I caught the bowling averages of some either seamers vs India in India - and yes, we were all thinking it, but Matthew Hoggard does have a lower bowling average in India than Malcolm Marshall (22 @ 23.31 to 36 @ 24.61). Obvious really!

Oh. A bit of a surprise there, thought Anderson would be averaging somewhere in the mid to late 20s in India, his record over here has been impressive.

Duty281 wrote:I see from doing some further reading that England were going to pick Archer for this test, but he was ruled out late on by yet another occurrence of an elbow injury. Becoming a very big concern and it may eliminate him from the test game entirely, forcing him to be a limited-overs specialist in order to preserve his fitness.

And apparently Stokes revealed he's battling a stomach illness currently, which has been sweeping through the England camp, which may further hinder his ability to bowl.

That seems a little odd. Were they going to leave out Bess again , or not pick the extra batsman ? Because if they really intended to play Archer , surely they'd have gone with Wood or Stone if he wasn't fit ?

Sounds like spin to me.

(Not suggesting the injury isn't genuine : just that I am skeptical they were set to play him otherwise)

Anderson has started steadily enough , as expected . Stokes too for his first couple of overs ; but the third one was pretty ragged...don't think it will be too long before we see the spinners. Batsmen have been watchful so far. 34/1 off 18.