England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21

First topic message reminder :

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Wake up to hear Swann doing an Aussie impression. Can this be over in two days again?

Is that what it was? Couldn't fool me...

p.s. it was a 'nowhere in particular' accent.

Brilliant from Kumar. He's just swung it back towards India there.

Yeah I don't think England are getting near this target : last two or three overs the boundaries have just dried up. They've bowled much better than England through this middle period.

Needs a flurry of late sixes from someone. And Bhuvi still has an over left...

Kohli has a bit of the Craig Bellamys about him, has to be an absolute tit when he’s playing

85 needed off 33. Need an onslaught now. But this looks like it is all India from here.

Fascinating with Malan. One of only two men to have a 50+ average with over 1000 runs, yet you can sense disappointment even now.

Malan gone. Not quite the death knell as you’d probably want Stokes in at the death anyway. Just goes from very slim to very slim. Good knock from Malan, hope he takes that attitude from ball one further.

Yeah, England have fallen apart now. In the mammoth scoring T20s, it's always an advantage to bat first due to the pressure element.

England will be disappointed to lose this series. ODIs next? Good Lord, is there any need?

Thakur produces another two wicket over and this is well over now...

Even with the dew , 225 always looked out of reach , against this Indian outfit. They may be renowned for their spinners : but their pace men have seriously out bowled England in these matches...much more thoughtful mix of deliveries while England have seemed far too intent on banging it in short as a default option.

Ever since Buttler got out it's been all India. Such a good decision to bring Kumar back for that over in the middle. It turned the game.

Doesn’t really matter, but Jordan at 7 is crazy. If you want a right hander, it has to be Jofra.

England got a bit unlucky with the ball at the end. The short ball still worked to Pandya, and he got away with a couple over the keepers head. Just think England’s pack of bowlers are better - with Bumrah still to return!

Needed one of Buttler or Malan to accelerate, instead India bowled two tight overs, both got bogged a bit and then out. Bhuvi has been superb

Difficult, chasing a big score : you can have a great partnership ; but when the asking rate still climbs it just makes it nearly impossible for incoming batsmen to maintain the chase once a wicket falls...and so they tend to swing before they're set and get out...Bit like the previous game .
But even so you have to give a lot of credit to the Indian bowlers , Bhuvi and Thakur. I really can't agree with JD about England having a superior bowling pack. Give India Bumrah and Jadeja on top of this lot and I reckon they are a mile better over the group of five or six.

How can you mess up that run out chance?

alfie wrote:Difficult, chasing a big score : you can have a great partnership ; but when the asking rate still climbs it just makes it nearly impossible for incoming batsmen to maintain the chase once a wicket falls...and so they tend to swing before they're set and get out...Bit like the previous game .
But even so you have to give a lot of credit to the Indian bowlers , Bhuvi and Thakur. I really can't agree with JD about England having a superior bowling pack. Give India Bumrah and Jadeja on top of this lot and I reckon they are a mile better over the group of five or six.

Yes, I agree with you. Typed England, meant India!

Kumar

In the end , the end came quite fast and Eng fell apart like a pack of cards once Bhivi's guiles got rid of Butler.
India won handsomely and credibly twice batting first  inspite of losing 4 tosses.
India kept learning and optimizing .

Eng did not do two things right

A They played without tweaking what they thought was their winning formula and in the process did not give their middle and lower middle order enuf chance to bat.
They should have rotated their batting a bit.

And B they did not learn the value of slower balls and didn't use them enuf at all.
They should have used Curran lot more and he mixes up his slower ones
I heard one of the commentators say in the last game that if Eng lost the series it would be their first in last eight T20 series

India certainly the better side over the course of the series. Winning two games batting first after losing the toss as well.

England have a real issue with their bowling unit after Archer, Wood and Rashid.

Jordan for a while bowled in the toughest parts of the innings and still had a good record. He's been going for runs and bowling at the tough periods less recently though. Batsman working out how to manipulate yorkers much better has reduced their effectiveness and I fear that's hit Jordan hard.

Surran's lack of use with bat and ball today felt bizarre.

I still have concerns over the batting order and wonder whether Hales could still add something.

Lots of talent available and they are obviously a good side still but issues for England to iron out before the World Cup in October.

Interestingly Morgan seemed to confirm that England will probably be missing their multi format players for the T20s over the summer. Guess that would possibly rule out, presuming just Test players - Buttler, Stokes, Archer, Curran, Wood.

So there might be a last minute dash for some people to get themselves back into the frame in England's weakest areas. The finishers (Livingstone, Willey) and bowlers (Topley, Mills - seen enough of TCurran).

https://twitter.com/saadvantage/status/1372890655660388352?s=21

This is also an interesting thread from someone who works in CC/the 100.

JDizzle wrote:Interestingly Morgan seemed to confirm that England will probably be missing their multi format players for the T20s over the summer. Guess that would possibly rule out, presuming just Test players - Buttler, Stokes, Archer, Curran, Wood.

So there might be a last minute dash for some people to get themselves back into the frame in England's weakest areas. The finishers (Livingstone, Willey) and bowlers (Topley, Mills - seen enough of TCurran).

Was just about to come on and post this JDizzle - not wholly unsurprising, they won’t want to run these guys into the ground and come summer, when you’d imagine fans return (hopefully), they’ll want the revenue from tests and the better players playing there.

And as you say, should provide the opportunity for some fringe players to stake a claim, which can only be a good thing.

A few kinks to iron out before the autumn, and for India I hope they entrust the likes of Yadav and Kishan rather than going back to the Rahul and Dhawan’s

"He clearly has a progressive injury which has become worse and does need attention," said Morgan, speaking after his side lost the fifth T20 to India in Ahmedabad on Saturday.

"We are going to wait until tonight and tomorrow to see how Jofra has pulled up.

"It will be over to our medical team to make a decision and hopefully the decision Jofra comes to will be the best for us in the long term."

Doesn't sound good for Archer. Might need surgery? I've disliked the fact he keeps getting injections because they only help in the short-term, and may even cause long-term damage. Whatever happens I hope he gets it sorted because he's such a phenomenal talent.

The use (arguably abuse) of cortisone steroid injections and painkillers in sport is a lingering issue I'm surprised doesn't get spoken about more. Flintoff and Jones from the '05 side have spoken a lot about running into bowl unable to feel where their ankle was landing. Not great in the short or long term really.

It sounds like Jof will either need a prolonged rest or surgery. Either way it would be a surprise to see him in the IPL in a months time.

If Archer has been unable to shake off this injury since the Test series I really have to question why he has been playing these t20 games - which are , for all the prestige of the top two sides in the format competing , essentially trial games for next year.
Sure England wanted to win - even to the point of prioritising them over the Tests in the matter of rotations : but in the end they lost anyway. Surely would have been better to let Jofra go and rest up and try some alternatives ?

Confirmed Archer is heading home and missing the ODIs and the start of the IPL - let’s hope they can get the issue fully fixed and have him firing for the summer

Silverwood: Archer's decision to miss ODIs and part of IPL 'mutual', 'sensible'

That's a very strangely worded statement implying it's Archer's decision to miss the ODis...   If (as if) Archer hadn't decided he could have continued playing

He was on Cortisones which you can go on in emergency... if you are a vital member in the eleven and have to complete that test match for eg....but with every movement you are aggravating that ligament [ I say this with personal experience on my Rotor Cuff ligaments]
I think he played two tests and 5 T20s ( meaningless in grand scheme of things) on injections.

Whatever happened to the so much  talked about Well-being , care and player management that Eng does?
That allowed him to bowl 50 overs or so on cortisones
and even now they make it sound its his decision to "MISS the ODIs"

He will need a LONG rest with administering of cortisones to heal the torn/ inflammation ...the key is not to come back too early else there will be recurrence.
Or a surgery .....Surgery while it sounds worse as its is invasive  is sure-shot to repair the torn ligament fully and it also force immobilizes that arm for longer

It sounds a funny one does Archer's elbow. Literally depends on the day he wakes up whether there is any pain or not. Pure speculation on my part, but a fairly common injury in baseball pitchers is something that requires Tommy John Surgery - and is a serious absence. Fingers crossed it isn't that.

On the actual squad, I am intrigued to see who bats three with no Root. Livingstone would seem to fit a top order role better than Billings, but I suppose Stokes could bat 3 - with Billings at 6 like last summer.

Moeen will surely play at 7 in the absence of Woakes. I hope Parkinson gets a game though - he's been out with the squad since Sri Lanka!

I'm a touch surprised that Stokes and Buttler have been retained to be honest. Then again it is only three ODIs over the course of 5 days.

1.Bairstow
2.Roy
3.Stokes
4.Morgan
5.Billings
6.Buttler (wk)
7.Moeen

That would be my guess on the top 7 with Livingstone coming in if someone is rested. Buttler will float in that order as usual as well.

The bowlers are anyone's guess. Turran struggled and Surran hardly bowled in the T20s.

I'd hope that Topley and Parkinson both get chances.

JDizzle wrote:It sounds a funny one does Archer's elbow. Literally depends on the day he wakes up whether there is any pain or not. Pure speculation on my part, but a fairly common injury in baseball pitchers is something that requires Tommy John Surgery - and is a serious absence. Fingers crossed it isn't that.

On the actual squad, I am intrigued to see who bats three with no Root. Livingstone would seem to fit a top order role better than Billings, but I suppose Stokes could bat 3 - with Billings at 6 like last summer.

Moeen will surely play at 7 in the absence of Woakes. I hope Parkinson gets a game though - he's been out with the squad since Sri Lanka!

Beat me to it , JD  - had been about to post virtually identical sentiments.  If they want to trial Livingstone this is their chance...but the option to let Stokes move up is there also.

[quote=" king_carlos "]

I'm a touch surprised that Stokes and Buttler have been retained to be honest. Then again it is only three ODIs over the course of 5 days.[quote]

 Suppose they can still rest either of them if they wish : plenty of spare keepers and with Moeen in the side they also have room to give the fringe bowlers a go ?  Depends how seriously they take getting a result in these games . Because playing the full strength side in the t20s worked so well  

Would agree with KC's top 7 for the ODI series. Nice symmetry in that both India and England are coming into this ODI series after having lost 2-1 to the Australians. India's record is, as you'd expect, very formidable at home having only lost three ODI series in India in the past decade. Since winning the World Cup, England's record in ODIs has been hit-and miss - playing eight and winning only four...with two of those wins against Ireland.

Should be a close series, expecting 2-1 either way. Might just give the nod to India with their home advantage, and England missing a few key players like Root, Archer and Woakes.

India's playing 11

1-Dhawan ( will get two games else Gill will replace him)
2-Rohit
3-Kohli
4-KL Rahul-WK ahead of Pant i think...kinda rest for Pant at least for first two games
5-Shreyas
6-Surya K.Y ( although SKY could bat at 4 and Rahul-6)
7-Pandya
8-Washington or Krunal most likely they will start with Washington
9-Shardul
10-Bhuvi
11-Chahl

No idea how these games will go. Have a sense that the serious work has all been done with the Tests and the t20s ...wonder how the players of both sides will be feeling about it ? The one with the more "motivated" group may well prevail...

I actually think India benefited in the t20s from mixing up their side between regulars and fringe candidates , in contrast to England playing their supposed "A" team throughout. Will be interesting to see how their more experimental team for this series performs for the tourists.

Different venue - still no crowds though. Might be entertaining matches , even if they don't have the "weight" attached to the other formats on this tour.

England bowling first, with a bowling line-up that looks a little light. I think they'd take anything that keeps India below 300.

Stokes's first ODI since the World Cup final in 2019...amazingly over a year and a half ago that now.

India with a couple of new boys...they've been very ready to try out players and increase their already imposing depth .

England by contrast with the predictable XI. Wonder whether the likes of Topley and Livingstone will get a run over the next couple or just carry drinks and gloves ?

Pitch is seaming a bit
India one bowler too many and lean on specialist batting
...Krunal ain't an all-rounder at this level and against this quality of bowling

alfie wrote:India with a couple of new boys...they've been very ready to try out players and increase their already imposing depth .

England by contrast with the predictable XI. Wonder whether the likes of Topley and Livingstone will get a run over the next couple or just carry drinks and gloves ?

shows that Morgan is under pressure to "show" a win on a terrible tour so far
Playing Archer with Elbow trouble also symptomatic of the same

Wood quite impressive in these early overs. But Dhawan has apparently been biding his time and might be away now with those two boundaries...
Should be plenty of runs on this once the new ball is done with.

I agree with David Lloyd - over-rates in the international game are laughable. 40 minutes for the first seven overs!

Mostly a good start from Wood and Curran, they're a decent bowling partnership, but no wickets as yet.

KP_fan wrote:

alfie wrote:India with a couple of new boys...they've been very ready to try out players and increase their already imposing depth .

England by contrast with the predictable XI. Wonder whether the likes of Topley and Livingstone will get a run over the next couple or just carry drinks and gloves ?

show that Morgan is under pressure to "show" a win on a terrible tour so far
Playing Archer with Elbow trouble also symptomatic of the same

Could read it that way , I guess. I'm not sure it was so much Morgan being put under pressure: more that he really wanted to get a bit of a psychological advantage by taking out the t20 ahead of the World Cup. A mistake , I think : not only it didn't work ; but they also missed a chance to try some players out. And , as you say , not smart to keep risking Archer.
Apart from anything else , the sameness of their bowling plans went against them as it seemed to me India's batsmen rather "worked them out" as the series progressed.

Actually do expect them to change the bowlers around this week...but who knows ?

I'd hardly call a 3-2 fairly tight series defeat a "terrible" tour for the white ball side!

wickets in hand are the KEY in this format......and that's India's template
40 in 10 overs
100 in 20 overs
240 in 40 overs
and 330-350 their objective

I am surprised to see no Root in the squad......generally a good stroke making test match player is more suited to ODis then a T20 hitter

Fairly sedate power play. Tom Curran up now : great bit of fielding just before ; but not sure about that hair band effect

Let's see how he bowls...

KP_fan wrote:wickets in hand are the KEY in this format......and that's India's template
40 in 10 overs
100 in 20 overs
240 in 40 overs
and 330-350 their objective

I am surprised to see no Root in the squad......generally a good stroke making test match player is more suited to ODis then a T20 hitter

Think he is entitled to a decent rest break ! He will be back in blue when the results count.

Looking like a good platform for India on a pitch doing practically nothing. Some of England's fielding has been impressive, but they need wickets to destabilise the Indian innings and no real chances are forthcoming so far.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I'd hardly call a 3-2 fairly tight series defeat a "terrible" tour for the white ball side!

First I wasn't alluding to the white ball tour but "The English tour of India"

And I believe there was expectation to seek some redemption for the 3-1 test defeat.... in their stronger white ball format

Eng not having lost last 8 T20I series were expected to win surely and even a 4-1 scoreline would have been deemed par and 3-2 acceptable
instead they finished 2-3
and so the pressure of redemption has shifted to ODIs

KP_fan wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I'd hardly call a 3-2 fairly tight series defeat a "terrible" tour for the white ball side!

First I wasn't alluding to the white ball tour but  "The English tour of India"

And I believe there was expectation to seek some redemption for the 3-1 test defeat.... in their stronger white ball  format

Eng not having lost last  8 T20I series were expected to win  surely and even a 4-1 scoreline would have been deemed par and 3-2 acceptable
instead they finished 2-3
and so the pressure of redemption has shifted to ODIs

Garbage as per usual, do you talk constant rubbish on purpose?

This is part of the white ball tour of India so what happened in red ball cricket means absolutely nothing. I don't think either team was expected to win and that is how the series played out.

One of the worst balls of the day gets Rohit. Timely breakthrough.

Soul Requiem wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I'd hardly call a 3-2 fairly tight series defeat a "terrible" tour for the white ball side!

First I wasn't alluding to the white ball tour but  "The English tour of India"

And I believe there was expectation to seek some redemption for the 3-1 test defeat.... in their stronger white ball  format

Eng not having lost last  8 T20I series were expected to win  surely and even a 4-1 scoreline would have been deemed par and 3-2 acceptable
instead they finished 2-3
and so the pressure of redemption has shifted to ODIs

Garbage as per usual, do you talk constant rubbish on purpose?

This is part of the white ball tour of India so what happened in red ball cricket means absolutely nothing. I don't think either team was expected to win and that is how the series played out.

The Indian fans would have been happy with even a 2-3 defeat in T20Is...against the top side in the world, with spin taken out of the equation on those pitches, and to make things worse after losing 4 tosses
That's a pleasant upset result

Duty281 wrote:One of the worst balls of the day gets Rohit. Timely breakthrough.

Fair enough...plenty of good balls got nothing. Decent platform for India ; but they'll want a fair score on this.

Spin into the mix now : this will be interesting. Two spinners today so if they can both bowl well...

A few good overs from Curran and Rashid has India a bit down on KP_fan's template: 83 off twenty rather than 100.

Stokes back now. Anything can happen...wickets or fast runs . Or maybe both...