ENGLAND vs FRANCE - Match Thread - 13/3/21 16:45pm

[TightHEAD]

First topic message reminder :

Starting XV

15. Max Malins (Bristol Bears, 6 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 49 caps)
13. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 37 caps)
12. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 91 caps) (C)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 64 caps)
10. George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 75 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 107 caps)

1. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 65 caps)
2. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 29 caps)
3. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 42 caps)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 46 caps)
5. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 19 caps)
6. Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 21 caps)
7. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 31 caps)
8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 59 caps)

FINISHERS
16. Jamie George (Saracens, 57 caps)
17. Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps)
18. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 10 caps)
19. Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, 7 caps)
20. Ben Earl (Bristol Bears, 11 caps)
21. Dan Robson (Wasps, 10 caps)
22. Ollie Lawrence (Worcester Warriors, 4 caps)
23. Elliot Daly (Saracens, 50 caps

FRANCE XV

Dulin; Thomas, Vakatawa, Fickou, Penaud; Jalibert, Dupont; Baille, Marchand, Haouas; Taofifenua, Willemse; Cretin, Ollivon (capt), Alldritt.

Replacements: Chat, Gros, Aldegheri, Cazeaux, Woki, Jelonch, Serin, Ntamack.

[lostinwales]

I would not have minded losing to France with them showing the touches they did, especially with us playing so well. The Penaud try was just fantastic.

All four tries were really good ones though.

[doctor_grey]

Surprised some here actually watched game as reading back it appears some spent all game commenting about it on here.
I was way too engrossed to do anything other than shout at TV on occasion.
Be interesting to see what happens next week with France v Wales. Will France want to bounce back with a win or will now that chance of Grand Slam gone lose interest?

I'd just come back from Rugby practice and was only connected to my old man by Zoom, otherwise I was watching with this lot. Voice dictation to the computer so no real distraction. A couple of time it started to transcribe some colourful words which would I would have to apologise for later.

I think Wales France will be a heck of a match.

[whatahitson]

Good win today.  I'm sorry, I know I've been absent during England's recent travails.   My oldest freind died just before the Scotland game. He was called Lee he loved rugby and whiskey. He was passionate and dedicated.  I've always found rugby as a salvation   but recently it has been hard to watch. We grew playing from under 11s. Here is to you marra. Garn safety. Love all your marras.

 

[doctor_grey]

Good win today.  I'm sorry, I know I've been absent during England's recent travails.   My oldest freind died just before the Scotland game. He was called Lee he loved rugby and whiskey. He was passionate and dedicated.  I've always found rugby as a salvation   but recently it has been hard to watch. We grew playing from under 11s. Here is to you marra. Garn safety. Love all your marras.

 

Strength to you. Love to the families.

[hawalsh]

A much improved effort from England, a better mindset, and some of the changes definitely had a positive effect.  Think a loss would have better for the team in the long run however, further changes are still required.

Disappointed with the refereeing group, think they made a number of mistakes for both sides.  Those that stood out against England in critical positions were the legitimate backward pump and then redirected illegal pass forward, which Penaud collected 1-2m in advance for his try.  The early commitment to a tackle on Slade without the ball by Alldritt, which drove him into Taofifenua, resulting in the incorrect call for obstruction on Ewels' run.  And Thomas not releasing Malins after the tackle, with the call then going against the England player for holding on.

[doctor_grey]

I was just looking at some top level England stats from the Six Nations so far, so thought I would tabularise and share.  Stats from ESPN.

Match	England Possession	Opponent Possession	England Territory	Opponent Territory	England Penalties	Opponent Penalties
England-Scotland	35%	65%	30%	70%	15	6
England Italy	56%	44%	64%	36%	12	11
England Wales	45%	55%	45%	55%	14	9
England France	58%	42%	62%	38%	12	8

I know we can dive a lot deeper, but it's getting late considering I have a 3:00am-7:00am shift Sunday morn.  This quick review shows England are consistently conceding too many penalties but I wanted to see the numbers.  This, of course is not news.  However, each pen is a turnover and most a loss of territory.  Considering the amount of possession England had in the 2nd half, the penalties killed dead-off a lot of opportunities.  Most were breakdown penalties.  If Ben Earl, for example, did not commit his two pens, would England have scored earlier?  Mot picking on him for any reason except he came on late, so his penalties were late when England needed to score.  

Regarding possession and territory, not saying England, or any team, need a majority of possession and/or territory, but in this short analysis, the numbers are clear between the wins and losses.  In general, I think territory is probably the more important of the two.  Will be interesting to see the numbers after the Ireland match.

[rosbif]

Imagine England if they had Dupont playing for them .

[mountain man]

Just to clear things up for everyone on here, I'm English, support England, always have always will.
This is definitely my first time on here, I'm not a returning poster under a different username.
As I previously stated when I arrived, I came here away from BBC forums as I got tired of silly trolls and idiots.

Good job none on here eh....

[mountain man]

I would not have minded losing to France with them showing the touches they did, especially with us playing so well. The Penaud try was just fantastic.

All four tries were really good ones though.

That was my first thought as well post match, I have to admit I thought France were going to win for most of game and it wouldn't have been undeserved but that was a fully 80 minute performance from England. Well maybe 79 as 1st minute they got caught out a bit!

[Sgt_Pooly]

Just to clear things up for everyone on here, I'm English, support England, always have always will.
This is definitely my first time on here, I'm not a returning poster under a different username.
As I previously stated when I arrived, I came here away from BBC forums as I got tired of silly trolls and idiots.

Good job none on here eh....  

Welcome to the forum MM!

Lets draw a line under this then and the petty accusations (of what I'm not even sure) can be halted.

We're fully accepting of all nationalities, even the Welsh

[Recwatcher16]

That win was a very New Zealand-esq, when under a lot of pressure from France, especially first half, but England looked dangerous ball in hand with pace and far greater accuracy. Game management was clearly better.
Thought MoM should have been Youngs who provided his full range of skills during the game. Just a small mention (I am bias) to Ewels who, in this game at least, didn't look out of place, directed the lineout and didn't stand back from his opposite numbers, who were probably 25kg in additional heft, his relative mobility shined through.

If England repeat that performance against Ireland, it will be interesting to see if the green shirts will keep up.

[No 7&1/2]

Curry picked up the fans potm. That was the right decision for me. Just superb in everything he did yesterday.

Pens conceded were better overall. Generally made in defence when under pressure which is less of a bug bear than in attack being sloppy.

[mountain man]

Curry, Itoje(as always), LCD, Watson and Slade all had excellent games and rest of team and subs all were good. Pens conceded were 12 so better but improvement needed, although most were when under severe pressure which is somewhat excusable. What was so bad against Wales were the mindless pens conceded which weren't necessary. The Johnny Hill one a prime example.

Anyway, onwards and upwards!

[Soul Requiem]

That was Curry's best performance since New Zealand, he was everywhere and is carrying better with each match. He's both deceptively quick and powerful, he's still a couple of years away from hitting his peak for me.

[lostinwales]

Just to clear things up for everyone on here, I'm English, support England, always have always will.
This is definitely my first time on here, I'm not a returning poster under a different username.
As I previously stated when I arrived, I came here away from BBC forums as I got tired of silly trolls and idiots.

Good job none on here eh....  

Welcome to the forum MM!

Lets draw a line under this then and the petty acquisitions (of what I'm not even sure) can be halted.

We're fully accepting of all nationalities, even the Welsh  

I am not buying it...

[Sgt_Pooly]

Haha...damn spellcheck!

[lostinwales]

That was Curry's best performance since New Zealand, he was everywhere and is carrying better with each match. He's both deceptively quick and powerful,  he's still a couple of years away from hitting his peak for me.

Oh yes. He's been strangely anonymous for much of the 6N and in the absence of Underhill, but here he was everywhere. Also used a lot for carrying which he did very effectively.

[No 7&1/2]

What were people seeing that was good from Slade? In my second viewing this morning and I'm not seeing it.

[mountain man]

What were people seeing that was good from Slade?  In my second viewing this morning and I'm not seeing it.

Well maybe it's just in contrast to previous games where he was pretty anonymous but I thought yesterday he played really well, made breaks, carried well, tackled well. He almost made the line in the build up to Watson try, he's finally showing some of his Exeter form I thought.

[doctor_grey]

Curry, Itoje(as always), LCD, Watson and Slade all had excellent games and rest of team and subs all were good. Pens conceded were 12 so better but improvement needed, although most were when under severe pressure which is somewhat excusable. What was so bad against Wales were the mindless pens conceded which weren't necessary. The Johnny Hill one a prime example.

Anyway, onwards and upwards!

Agree! Like others said, could well have been Curry's best match in quite a while and could easily have seen him as MOTM. I also thought Ford played well, especially as Farrell became less involved as the game wore on and England needed to chase the game. The only problem with LCD was he committed a few no-arms in the first half which was really dangerous. It wasn't caught by the referee, but some of the other gents here noticed it as well, I think King Carlos, Big Gee and 7&½ also mentioned it. Maybe more. In the second half, no issues so must have been spoken to a halftime. Despite that, if he continues to play at this level, without the no-arms, I would keep him in the starting line up.

[No 7&1/2]

It was a nice break in the first half. He did a good rip to regain possession and its useful to have a left foot kicking option. I don't know, I just don't think he offers the best balance or has really had that standout game ball in and that I expected of him. When Lawrence came on he was just that more direct running option which then leads to more space for the rest of the backs.

Have to say how much of a pain playing against Itoje is. How many times was he getting or nearly getting to Dupont.

[mountain man]

That's the thing now I reckon, players so careful not to go high they are going for Lydiate style chop tackles and if technique not spot on can lead to no-arm tackles.

[lostinwales]

It was a nice break in the first half. He did a good rip to regain possession and its useful to have a left foot kicking option. I don't know,  I just don't think he offers the best balance or has really had that standout game ball in and that I expected of him. When Lawrence came on he was just that more direct running option which then leads to more space for the rest of the backs.

Have to say how much of a pain playing against Itoje is. How many times was he getting or nearly getting to Dupont.

We all know how good Dupont is, and I think it is very telling how quiet he was as the game wore on, especially after that brilliant start.

[doctor_grey]

That's the thing now I reckon, players so careful not to go high they are going for Lydiate style chop tackles and if technique not spot on can lead to no-arm tackles.

Good point.  And the technique has to be right.  
LCD eliminated those in the second half, at least that I saw, but I would have pulled him after three in the first half and, in fact, was wondering if Jones was going to sit him, despite the other aspects of his game being very good.  Very happy he cleaned that up.  Now let's see if he can maintain it.  As you said, those tackles are a skill.

[doctor_grey]

It was a nice break in the first half. He did a good rip to regain possession and its useful to have a left foot kicking option. I don't know,  I just don't think he offers the best balance or has really had that standout game ball in and that I expected of him. When Lawrence came on he was just that more direct running option which then leads to more space for the rest of the backs.

Have to say how much of a pain playing against Itoje is. How many times was he getting or nearly getting to Dupont.

We all know how good Dupont is, and I think it is very telling how quiet he was as the game wore on, especially after that brilliant start.

Ben Youngs must have physically, mentally, emotionally, and psychically dominated him into submission....

[No 7&1/2]

That's the thing now I reckon, players so careful not to go high they are going for Lydiate style chop tackles and if technique not spot on can lead to no-arm tackles.

Good point.  And the technique has to be right.  
LCD eliminated those in the second half, at least that I saw, but I would have pulled him after three in the first half and, in fact, was wondering if Jones was going to sit him, despite the other aspects of his game being very good.  Very happy he cleaned that up.  Now let's see if he can maintain it.  As you said, those tackles are a skill.

He didn't get penalised for 1 on the other hand. Some things go for you and some against. Another ref would definitely have blown up but you do have to play the ref in the day.

[jimbopip]

It was a nice break in the first half. He did a good rip to regain possession and its useful to have a left foot kicking option. I don't know,  I just don't think he offers the best balance or has really had that standout game ball in and that I expected of him. When Lawrence came on he was just that more direct running option which then leads to more space for the rest of the backs.

Have to say how much of a pain playing against Itoje is. How many times was he getting or nearly getting to Dupont.

We all know how good Dupont is, and I think it is very telling how quiet he was as the game wore on, especially after that brilliant start.

Ben Youngs must have physically, mentally, emotionally, and psychically dominated him into submission....

Doc, this reminds me of a comment a Scottish poster made after a Glasgow v Edinburgh derby when John Barclay so dominated the Edinburgh 7 (Roddy Grant) ,
"he had him chained in his own personal sex dungeon for 80 minutes".
We know how to live in the west coast.

[doctor_grey]

It was a nice break in the first half. He did a good rip to regain possession and its useful to have a left foot kicking option. I don't know,  I just don't think he offers the best balance or has really had that standout game ball in and that I expected of him. When Lawrence came on he was just that more direct running option which then leads to more space for the rest of the backs.

Have to say how much of a pain playing against Itoje is. How many times was he getting or nearly getting to Dupont.

We all know how good Dupont is, and I think it is very telling how quiet he was as the game wore on, especially after that brilliant start.

Ben Youngs must have physically, mentally, emotionally, and psychically dominated him into submission....

Doc, this reminds me of a comment a Scottish poster made after a Glasgow v Edinburgh derby when John Barclay so dominated the Edinburgh 7 (Roddy Grant) ,
"he had him chained  in his own personal sex dungeon for 80 minutes".
We know how to live in the west coast.

That is the line of the day!  You know I have to work it in somewhere today.  Too funny!
Not sure I should read this whilst having breakfast...

[WELL-PAST-IT]

I am late in commenting as I had been given other tasks to do by the Boss as we are moving house shortly. Now that I have completed my term of hard labour I can try and put something down if my addled and rather old brain can remember what I wanted to say.

Youngs had the best match for England he has had for years, his passing was good, not great but good. He got to the breakdown just about every time quickly so that England did not lose momentum. He made two or three telling sniping runs, just a pity he does not have the pace to really hurt the opposition. Someone like Mitchell would have been away on a couple of those. In defence as usual he was a rock.

As previously discussed, LCD NATs aside was a big improvement on George, this years form anyway.

Ewels really surprised me, very good in the loose, and defence, lineout linchpin. This is the first game in recent memory (mine) that England did not lose a lineout and won a couple on French ones.

BV was doing the hard yards thing, but where has his tackle rate gone, he seemed a bit absent in defence.

Like GF, I have been a vocal supporter of Wilson, but I think the pace England and teams like France play with is too fast for him, he as okay but we have better, even Lawes when fit.

The props were used well in the battering ram sections of the game, but what has happened to the deft offloads and pop passes we are used to seeing from both Sinckler and Mako. Haven't seen one in quite a while.

Ford played well, organised the pods and even defended well, nothing fantastic apart from a couple of miss passes that found space for people.

Farrell kicked well, made a couple of good tackles, but was he playing other than that?

Slade organised the defence and made some good breaks, pity there was no one supporting him when he did. Good defence, it will never happen but really should be in the 12 jersey with Lawrence or somebody similar at 13.

Watson did everything he could, scored a try on his 50th cap, made a sublime break that so nearly became a try. Good under the kick chase balls not much he could have done better. May has had, by his standards a poor 6N, where has the long arcing run that stuffed the Kiwis a few years back gone. Even when there appears to be an empty left field, he tries to jink his way through, that is Watsons game, May's is about pure speed and leaving opponents flat on their faces trying to stop him. Again, good kick chase though.

Malins was safe. He didn't have to deal with many high balls and certainly not under the pressure Daly gets put under, possibly as he is known to be good in that area. He did little with the ball though, just looked for the tightest group of French forwards he could see and ran into them.

Of the replacements, only Earl and Daly stood out. Daly showed us what he used to do. Caught all his passes, ran into space rather than at the big forwards and reminded us just how quick he is. He has even learnt to pass. Where has he been the last couple of seasons because this wasn't the Elliot Daly we have seen recently, this was the old Elliot Daly.

Earl was unlucky in my opinion. We always say that you have top play to the ref, Earl watched the French, piling over the top, not supporting their weight for about 65 minutes. Not a single penalty against them for it. The first time he does it he gets pinged.

The French were at their mercurial best, well for the French in recent years. They have some excellent players, half backs who if left to their own devices can completely control a game. They need to lighten up the forwards though, in such a fast game they were just not quick or mobile enough and it showed.

The ref, whether he is hybrid Welsh Irishman or what ever was poor. I thought that he was not going to to to the TMO for Itoje's try. He was around the wrong side of the pile up to see what happened was was quite happy to look at the situation 10 seconds after Itoje had gone over rather than ask the TMO had been it been grounded first. He even said "held up, 5m scrum". Refs ask for the TMOs verdict on a lot of things they should and have seen clearly themselves, this one seemed reluctant to ask when he clearly had not seen what actually happened.

Inconsistencies abounded, he really was poor. This is the second match in a row where the ref has had an effect on the outcome of an England game. You have to ask yourself why it keeps happening as you don't see theses issues in the other games.

[hugehandoff]

Firstly a bloody good match and far removed from the boring kick fests that were turning us off this beautiful game. France were excellent at times and the future looks promising for them. Great test for them next Saturday against the GS chasing Welsh.....Allez Les Bleus!

England much much improved and so many players returning to decent form. The Farrell/Slade midfield is still not right and I thought Slade was looking sharp. Otherwise probably keep the same side for next weekend, albeit if we were allowed to bring Underhill back into the squad I would do so. We also clearly need Launchbury or Lawes to add a bit more on the gainline.

I thought Malins struggled a bit yesterday, but blame Eddie for that...he should have started against Italy. Daly looked so much better for being dropped. Plus I think he a bit slow bring George on for LCD who was just going off the boil. But overall a big improvement and if they can get the penalty count down to 9 against Ireland then they will have a decent shout of finishing on a high.

[Mr Bounce]

After the first couple of minutes yesterday I genuinely thought "It's gonna be a long afternoon", but I was very impressed with England's speed, the fact that they didn't panic and the huge improvement in number of silly penalties conceded.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Eddie field the same side next week, injuries permitting, as Malins was solid at 15, and nobody was rubbish. I was particularly impressed with Ewels as he gets a lot of stick on here, most of it unfairly. He's a solid player and someone to rely on. He had an excellent game yesterday doing nothing badly. Well played him. He's obviously relishing being an England player at present.

Looking forward to the Ireland-Scotland game and seeing how Ireland do. Could be a close one.

Also wondering what next week's France-Wales match will be like. Wales brimming with confidence and France hurting from a close defeat - could be a cracker!

[Sgt_Pooly]

Just finished watching the 1st half, much improved! Only real concern were how easily they scored, something that's been a theme this 6N.

Pack going well as a unit, all seem to have stepped up a level. Ewels perhaps bringing something we've missed since Kruis....basic lock skills done well, nothing flashy. Curry outstanding.

Halfbacks seem much more involved, Youngs odd typical slow service/bad pass but generally much improved I think. Ford seems to have more responsibility (its usually seems to come more through Farrell?) And he's thriving....big Ford fan.

Centres meh...really missing that line break. Impressed with Mallins, bringing a steadiness Daly doesn't do far. Showing why its important to get starts...and hopefully a run. Watson electric! Side just looks generally quite well balanced. Looking forward to the 2nd half.

Already took great delight messaging the French in-laws

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Just finished watching the 1st half, much improved! Only real concern were how easily they scored, something that's been a theme this 6N.

Pack going well as a unit, all seem to have stepped up a level. Ewels perhaps bringing something we've missed since Kruis....basic lock skills done well, nothing flashy. Curry outstanding.

Halfbacks seem much more involved, Youngs odd typical slow service/bad pass but generally much improved I think. Ford seems to have more responsibility (its usually seems to come more through Farrell?) And he's thriving....big Ford fan.

Centres meh...really missing that line break. Impressed with Mallins, bringing a steadiness Daly doesn't do far. Showing why its important to get starts...and hopefully a run. Watson electric! Side just looks generally quite well balanced. Looking forward to the 2nd half.

Already took great delight messaging the French in-laws

Would love to do the same, unfortunately Germany do not play rugby at that level. Strange as to why, I would have thought that rugby was a game absolutely made of the German psych.  I hate it when football World Cups come around, endless grief  about how well they do and how bad we are.

[lostinwales]

You would have thought Germany and Holland could both embrace the sport, but it is not going to happen in a hurry. Realistically only NZ, SA, England, France and possibly Australia have a chance of winning a RWC and it is unlikely to change over the next 10, 20 years or more.

[doctor_grey]

Just finished watching the 1st half, much improved! Only real concern were how easily they scored, something that's been a theme this 6N.

Pack going well as a unit, all seem to have stepped up a level. Ewels perhaps bringing something we've missed since Kruis....basic lock skills done well, nothing flashy. Curry outstanding.

Halfbacks seem much more involved, Youngs odd typical slow service/bad pass but generally much improved I think. Ford seems to have more responsibility (its usually seems to come more through Farrell?) And he's thriving....big Ford fan.

Centres meh...really missing that line break. Impressed with Mallins, bringing a steadiness Daly doesn't do far. Showing why its important to get starts...and hopefully a run. Watson electric! Side just looks generally quite well balanced. Looking forward to the 2nd half.

Already took great delight messaging the French in-laws

Would love to do the same, unfortunately Germany do not play rugby at that level. Strange as to why, I would have thought that rugby was a game absolutely made of the German psych.  I hate it when football World Cups come around, endless grief  about how well they do and how bad we are.

Football has a world cup?

[TightHEAD]

Censored again, no wonder people are leaving this site in droves.

So was Eddie playing mind games?

[TightHEAD]

Loved the game, even had we lost at least we looked like a team again.  Just goes to show how much Eddie fecked it up by picking rusty players.

[lostinwales]

Censored again, no wonder people are leaving this site in droves.

So was Eddie playing mind games?

Free for alls can also cause people to leave 'in droves'

[lostinwales]

Loved the game, even had we lost at least we looked like a team again.  Just goes to show how much Eddie fecked it up by picking rusty players.

Something I can fully agree on. I watch and talk about rugby for a bunch of reasons but generally I don't enjoy watching it anything like I used to. It was so good to be reminded about how fantastic the game can actually be. When the technical and physical combine so well. All that split second timing on one hand, and 130kg guys running into each other on the other.

I am frustrated by the criticism of the referee in this case. It isn't an easy job and of course there are errors and I can't influence how others see those inevitable mistakes. But the key for me is that the referee for much of the game was invisible and yet the game flowed. He must have got something right

[MichaelT]

For the Du Pont try, once he has tapped that ball forward and before he re-gathers it, is he okay to be tackled? Could Watson have done something there similar to what Nowell did v Ireland in 2019 when Stockdale was juggling the ball and Nowell tackled him letting the ball bounce again and Daly scored?

Just wondered if Du Pont being tackled then would it be an off the ball challenge or is he considered fair game as he purposely hits it forward to re-gather. If its an off the ball hit then probably a penalty try and yellow, but just thinking back to the game in Dublin.

[king_carlos]

For the Du Pont try, once he has tapped that ball forward and before he re-gathers it, is he okay to be tackled? Could Watson have done something there similar to what Nowell did v Ireland in 2019 when Stockdale was juggling the ball and Nowell tackled him letting the ball bounce again and Daly scored?

Just wondered if Du Pont being tackled then would it be an off the ball challenge or is he considered fair game as he purposely hits it forward to re-gather. If its an off the ball hit then probably a penalty try and yellow, but just thinking back to the game in Dublin.

All about timing and interpretation there. Had Watson hit him close to when he touched the ball I reckon he would have been fine.

I struggle to criticise too much there though as it is just a bit of brilliance that Dupont makes look so easy. Not many players finish that try in my opinion by Dupont made it look regulation.

Nowell is undoubtedly England's best defensive winger and we have missed having him as an option in that regard despite May and Watson being very good within their own strengths.

[Poorfour]

If a player has made contact with the ball but isn't in control of it, most refs would allow the tackle, just as they allow a certain amount of off-the-ball argy bargy when chasing a loose ball (e.g. Hogg being pulled back after his header).

Otherwise, a player in possession could decide to juggle the ball whenever they came close to a tackler and couldn't ever be tackled - it would be quite an impressive skill but would ruin the balance between attack and defence.

[No 7&1/2]

Second Dupont has touched the ball its ok to tackle him, ie to stop him regaining it. And yes Dupont was great there, want to say again what a great job Itoje did on him after that.

[MichaelT]

Thanks - wasn't criticising Watson, just occurred to me on watching it on highlights. Was great play by Du Pont.

[doctor_grey]

If a player has made contact with the ball but isn't in control of it, most refs would allow the tackle, just as they allow a certain amount of off-the-ball argy bargy when chasing a loose ball (e.g. Hogg being pulled back after his header).

Otherwise, a player in possession could decide to juggle the ball whenever they came close to a tackler and couldn't ever be tackled - it would be quite an impressive skill but would ruin the balance between attack and defence.

I'm not sure it is even argy bargy. I think if a player is making a play on the ball and touches it legally, he can be taken out if continuity from the opposing player trying to time his tackle right. At least that is what I thought was legal. Where is Tony Spreadbury to explain things when we need him?

[Poorfour]

If a player has made contact with the ball but isn't in control of it, most refs would allow the tackle, just as they allow a certain amount of off-the-ball argy bargy when chasing a loose ball (e.g. Hogg being pulled back after his header).

Otherwise, a player in possession could decide to juggle the ball whenever they came close to a tackler and couldn't ever be tackled - it would be quite an impressive skill but would ruin the balance between attack and defence.

I'm not sure it is even argy bargy. I think if a player is making a play on the ball and touches it legally, he can be taken out if continuity from the opposing player trying to time his tackle right.  At least that is what I thought was legal.  Where is Tony Spreadbury to explain things when we need him?  

I was thinking more of the "player flyhacks on, pursuing player grabs shirt / makes a half tackle" - strictly it's tackling a player off the ball, but most refs will let it go if it's not too blatant.

[Heaf]

If a player has made contact with the ball but isn't in control of it, most refs would allow the tackle, just as they allow a certain amount of off-the-ball argy bargy when chasing a loose ball (e.g. Hogg being pulled back after his header).

Otherwise, a player in possession could decide to juggle the ball whenever they came close to a tackler and couldn't ever be tackled - it would be quite an impressive skill but would ruin the balance between attack and defence.

I'm not sure it is even argy bargy. I think if a player is making a play on the ball and touches it legally, he can be taken out if continuity from the opposing player trying to time his tackle right.  At least that is what I thought was legal.  Where is Tony Spreadbury to explain things when we need him?  

My understanding is that if a player knocks the ball up in the air with a view to catching it then they are considered to be attempting to bring it under control and therefore classed as 'in possession' so are fair game to be tackled ...

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