LIONS ANNOUNCEMENT

First topic message reminder :

Forwards: Tadhg Beirne, Jack Conan, Luke Cowan Dickie, Tom Curry, Zander Fagerson, Taulupe Faletau, Tadhg Furlong, Jamie George, Iain Henderson, Jonny Hill, Maro Itoje, Alun Wyn Jones, Wyn Jones, Courtney Lawes, Ken Owens, Andrew Porter, Sam Simmonds, Rory Sutherland, Justin Tipuric, Mako Vunipola, Hamish Watson.

Backs: Josh Adams, Bundee Aki, Dan Biggar, Elliot Daly, Gareth Davies, Owen Farrell, Chris Harris, Robbie Henshaw, Stuart Hogg, Conor Murray, Ali Price, Louis Rees-Zammit, Finn Russell, Duhan van der Merwe, Anthony Watson, Liam Williams.

doctor_grey wrote:Yesterday, Biggar showed what Lion is.  

I would have him as my lions 10. Is he the best? Its arguable he is not even the best in Wales let alone in the rest of the home nations but I believe his game is the best suited to the lions

TJ wrote:Is he the best?

That is, as always the eternal question which can never be answered.

Ever since Cliff Morgan, Barry John and Jiffy the Welsh have a love affair with the "mercurial" flyhalf, IMHO it's always clouded their opinion even more so in the professional era, they give grudging praise for the game-management 10s Neil Jenkins, Stephen Jones, Dan Biggar while blind hyperbole given for their risk-taking rivals Henson, Hook, Anscombe, Jarrod Evans

I doubt very much that Anscombe (injured), Patchell (injured), Jarrod Evans or Sheedy have or can consistently hit the heights that Biggar does. Some parts of Wales are spouting that Jarrod Evans and Sheedy are already better...what a crock, e.g. Evans always topping Pro 14 in attack stats but also topping for possession lost, he also is inaccurate kicking out of hand and from the tee as is his overall game management, his long kicking game is still an issue. Most of those issues can only be fixed by bulking up to the detriment of his speed/innovation.

So where is Dan amongst the rugby elite
South African website www.goalkickers.co.za has devised an algorithm that takes into account not only each player's goalkicking success rate but also the difficulty of the kicks they attempted. https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/best-goal-kickers-world-rugby-18108777
The best goal-kickers in world rugby have finally been ranked using years of evidence (as at Apr 2020)
1, Leigh Halfpenny (Wales), 87%
2, Dan Biggar (Wales), 89%
4, Owen Farrell (England), 79%
10, Rhys Priestland (Wales), 94%
14, Rhys Patchell (Wales), 82%
15, Finn Russell (Scotland), 81%
24, Gareth Anscombe (Wales), 84%
38, George Ford (England), 75%
45, Johnny Sexton (Ireland), 78%
Just to note in 2020 his pure accuracy was 94%, Sheedy was 73%

So Dan my man, amongst the Lions candidates
Are you the most exciting 10 - No. Finn Russell
Are you the most risk-taking 10 - No. Finn Russell
Are you the game changer 10 - No. Finn Russell
Are you the best defensive 10 - Yes
Are you the most accurate 10 - Yes
Are you the most aware 10 - Yes
Are you the best game mgt 10 - No. Sexton
Are you the form 10 - Yes

Are you currently the "overall" best 10 - Yes

Will you get selected for the test side - No

doctor_grey wrote:Yesterday, Biggar showed what Lion is.  

Getting marched back 10m early doors for dissent and putting a negative impression of his side with the ref? It wasn't even a 50/50 call he was just being overly angry. As well as he played yesterday moments like that are needlessly dumb and make him a liability in what is likely to be a confrontational contest.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Yesterday, Biggar showed what Lion is.  

Getting marched back 10m early doors for dissent and putting a negative impression of his side with the ref? It wasn't even a 50/50 call he was just being overly angry. As well as he played yesterday moments like that are needlessly dumb and make him a liability in what is likely to be a confrontational contest.

Based on that one incident then you are going to need a 10 doesn't give pens away needlessly.....Russell, Farrell and Biggar better spend the summer working on their tans

Sexton it is then, followed by Ford

flyhalffactory wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Yesterday, Biggar showed what Lion is.  

Getting marched back 10m early doors for dissent and putting a negative impression of his side with the ref? It wasn't even a 50/50 call he was just being overly angry. As well as he played yesterday moments like that are needlessly dumb and make him a liability in what is likely to be a confrontational contest.

Based on that one incident then you are going to need a 10 doesn't give pens away needlessly.....Russell, Farrell and Biggar better spend the summer working on their tans

Sexton it is then, followed by Ford

Biggar has previous for shouting at referees and Saints discipline was a major reason Tigers remained in the game. Biggar is a leader in that team and set the tone. He's got time to show he can develop past that. Saints were marched back three times for dissent. Two at the breakdown and one at a scrum.

I wouldn't take Farrell, no. Russell doesn't get on the wrong side of the ref but does seem to like to collect cards. Sexton whilst vocal tends to play the refs well.

Sexton also increasingly made of glass - so play him by all means but you have to have a plan B

lostinwales wrote:Sexton also increasingly made of glass - so play him by all means but you have to have a plan B

You dont get over 100 international caps if you are made of glass. Sextons problem is he likes to get involved in rucks and big tackles. He doesnt shy away from the physical stuff.

Sexton rarely misses games for Ireland because of injury.

I think calling any modern rugby player "made of glass" is a bit ignorant given the physical toll of the game these days. But Gatland has to consider how often Sexton is forced off early. Otherwise I think his form has been very good compared to pretty poor 2019 and 2020 seasons. Even in his last game against Exeter I thought he was showing nice touches in the 25 minutes he did play. He's lost a lot of pace from his prime but he still has that subtlety and vision that I haven't seen so much from Biggar. But I see Sexton as a good bench option for the Lions to close out the last 20 minutes or so - who I'd start I'm really not sure and would have to come down to form in the warm-up games.

Hard to say who is best for the Lions. Which is not saying who is best, just best for the Lions. All names mentioned are very good.

However, watching Biggar recently for Saints as well as Wales has been a revelation. He is smart, tough, skilled and a clear leader. In yesterday's game v. Leicester, Ford was relatively invisible in contrast. Russell has played great in France, but those two pens in the 6 nations, the trip (a yellow which could well have been red) and the forearm to the chops v. France which almost cost them the game, decided it for me that he is too unreliable, which is a shame. For me, Lions 10 comes down to Sexton and Biggar. No idea who the third choice would be.

doctor_grey wrote:Hard to say who is best for the Lions.   Which is not saying who is best, just best for the Lions.  All names mentioned are very good.  

However, watching Biggar recently for Saints as well as Wales has been a revelation.  He is smart, tough, skilled and a clear leader.  In yesterday's game v. Leicester, Ford was relatively invisible in contrast.  Russell has played great in France, but those two pens in the 6 nations, the trip (a yellow which could well have been red) and the forearm to the chops v. France which almost cost them the game, decided it for me that he is too unreliable, which is a shame.  For me, Lions 10 comes down to Sexton and Biggar.  No idea who the third choice would be.  

Sexton off the bench offers nothing over biggar. You need an impact player. Biggar doesn't need replaced if you're leading either. No?

I enjoyed reading this on the weekend, a good insight, from one of the worlds highest rated referees on why AWJ should be Lions captain:-

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/nigel-owens-explains-how-alun-20386811

Collapse2005 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Sexton also increasingly made of glass - so play him by all means but you have to have a plan B

You dont get over 100 international caps if you are made of glass. Sextons problem is he likes to get involved in rucks and big tackles. He doesnt shy away from the physical stuff.

Sexton rarely misses games for Ireland because of injury.

'Increasingly'. He wasn't but times change. Head injuries have started being a thing though

doctor_grey wrote:Hard to say who is best for the Lions.   Which is not saying who is best, just best for the Lions.  All names mentioned are very good.  

However, watching Biggar recently for Saints as well as Wales has been a revelation.  He is smart, tough, skilled and a clear leader.  In yesterday's game v. Leicester, Ford was relatively invisible in contrast.  Russell has played great in France, but those two pens in the 6 nations, the trip (a yellow which could well have been red) and the forearm to the chops v. France which almost cost them the game, decided it for me that he is too unreliable, which is a shame.  For me, Lions 10 comes down to Sexton and Biggar.  No idea who the third choice would be.  

Biggar did have that backline clicking along nicely but Tigers dominated territory. Ford was quiet but he kept Saints playing from their own half. Admittedly Ford had a much better fullback to help with the territory battle mind.

I don't think you can narrow down to Biggar and Sexton this early because form of some of the other players that could be in the picture may well be relevant between now and selection. There's some fairly hefty European games left though Biggar isn't invoked in those others will be. Biggar is certainly in amongst the contenders as is Sexton but discounting Russell is outrageous given what he can bring to the party (yes he needs to sort the discipline but Biggar needs to learn to keep his mouth shut). Ford and Farrell are probably moving to more outside chances, Sheedy if he can get fit and show some form could be a bolter, I though Carbeary back from injury could have been a bolter but with the league in Ireland finishing early has he got any meaningful games to show form?

Owens really wants to build his side around Jones? Dear me.

Any news on Biggars injury?

LordDowlais wrote:I enjoyed reading this on the weekend, a good insight, from one of the worlds highest rated referees on why AWJ should be Lions captain:-

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/nigel-owens-explains-how-alun-20386811

Welsh referee in a Welsh publication backing a Welsh Lions captain shocker!

Also from Walesonline, https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/11-current-non-test-players-20463432

The list is just them mentioning names but the detail on the letters sent out to 50 potential players makes interesting reading. This seems to tally with the combined number of names mentioned by the coaches ie they had 25 names mentioned by all (from memory) and then a total of 50 odd mentioned by at least 1.

By the sounds of it the letter is basically saying that you're being considered what are your holiday plans?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I enjoyed reading this on the weekend, a good insight, from one of the worlds highest rated referees on why AWJ should be Lions captain:-

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/nigel-owens-explains-how-alun-20386811

Welsh referee in a Welsh publication backing a Welsh Lions captain shocker!

But at least he is being thorough and giving his reasons.

Look, I know that a few English fans on here do not rate him, and I know they see him as a direct threat to perhaps Farrell being captain.

But rather than just mock the journalism, can you just not agree/disagree and give you reasons to create some debate ? Other that just provoke the usual bickering on here. It would be refreshing for you to actually tell us why you disagree, so then at least we can then discuss it.

All joking aside, do English fans really not rate AWJ? How is that possible?

Nobody likes to make fun of blind national pride more than me (including mocking myself) but Alun does have a few undeniable things that make him quite good. You know, things like 148 caps, 5 6N trophies, 3 Grand Slams, 9 Lions test caps and a 6N Player of the Championship Award.

I am struggling to think of a better tour captain.

LordDowlais wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I enjoyed reading this on the weekend, a good insight, from one of the worlds highest rated referees on why AWJ should be Lions captain:-

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/nigel-owens-explains-how-alun-20386811

Welsh referee in a Welsh publication backing a Welsh Lions captain shocker!

But at least he is being thorough and giving his reasons.

Look, I know that a few English fans on here do not rate him, and I know they see him as a direct threat to perhaps Farrell being captain.

But rather than just mock the journalism, can you just not agree/disagree and give you reasons to create some debate ? Other that just provoke the usual bickering on here. It would be refreshing for you to actually tell us why you disagree, so then at least we can then discuss it.

I've not seen many English posters advocating Farrell for captain. Myself and others do not even think he warrants a place in the squad so I'm not sure where that little outburst comes from.

Anyway.......for me Itoje is the best lock available and I don't think AWJ makes a great partner for him. For that reason, I would go with Ryan and put AWJ on the bench. Also, that leaves a spot as captain, in which case I would go Itoje, not Farrell.

AWJ is a fine player, outstanding in some regards, but it's all about combinations and balance imo.

George Carlin wrote:All joking aside, do English fans really not rate AWJ? How is that possible?

Nobody likes to make fun of blind national pride more than me (including mocking myself) but Alun does have a few undeniable things that make him quite good. You know, things like 148 caps, 5 6N trophies, 3 Grand Slams, 9 Lions test caps and a 6N Player of the Championship Award.

I am struggling to think of a better tour captain.

I don't rate him high enough to be in the match day squad. I like your line of '148 caps, 5 6N trophies, 3 Grand Slams, 9 Lions test caps and a 6N Player of the Championship Award' but that to me isn't relevant in discussions on who makes up that 1st test. Let him be a leader in that group.

George Carlin wrote:All joking aside, do English fans really not rate AWJ? How is that possible?

Nobody likes to make fun of blind national pride more than me (including mocking myself) but Alun does have a few undeniable things that make him quite good. You know, things like 148 caps, 5 6N trophies, 3 Grand Slams, 9 Lions test caps and a 6N Player of the Championship Award.

I am struggling to think of a better tour captain.

None of that makes him undeniably quite good, it just means he's been part of a quite good team for a long time. I genuinely don't think his ability has ever matched his reputation, he's a solid player but on top form i'd be picking a fair few players over him. He doesn't have the athleticism of Itoje, the physicality of Lawes, the power and work rate of Launchbury or the set piece of Kruis. James Ryan is again an all round better player while four years I thought Johnny Gray deserved to tour instead of him.

George Carlin wrote:All joking aside, do English fans really not rate AWJ? How is that possible?

Nobody likes to make fun of blind national pride more than me (including mocking myself) but Alun does have a few undeniable things that make him quite good. You know, things like 148 caps, 5 6N trophies, 3 Grand Slams, 9 Lions test caps and a 6N Player of the Championship Award.

I am struggling to think of a better tour captain.

Exactly.

But right on cue, here comes the people who disagree, without really giving any evidence to the point.

I don't rate him high enough to be in the match day squad. I like your line of '148 caps, 5 6N trophies, 3 Grand Slams, 9 Lions test caps and a 6N Player of the Championship Award' but that to me isn't relevant in discussions on who makes up that 1st test. Let him be a leader in that group.

That's one of my bugbears, players past glories being brought up when it's current form/ability that needs to be judged. If past glories were any kind of benchmark they'd be luring BOD out of retirement.
AWJ is a great player, he's still got great form, he's a natural leader and probably the man for tour captain but is he the best man to take on the Saffers? No, there are a few players that have showed better form and are quite simply the right players to choose ahead of him. I'd have Itoje, Ryan, Bierne (although I prefer him in the back row), Henderson and Kruis all ahead of him and there are others. There's enough on-field leadership amongst that bunch to make up for the loss of his and more on-field presence.

Pete330v2 wrote:I don't rate him high enough to be in the match day squad. I like your line of '148 caps, 5 6N trophies, 3 Grand Slams, 9 Lions test caps and a 6N Player of the Championship Award' but that to me isn't relevant in discussions on who makes up that 1st test. Let him be a leader in that group.

That's one of my bugbears, players past glories being brought up when it's current form/ability that needs to be judged. If past glories were any kind of benchmark they'd be luring BOD out of retirement.
AWJ is a great player, he's still got great form, he's a natural leader and probably the man for tour captain but is he the best man to take on the Saffers? No, there are a few players that have showed better form and are quite simply the right players to choose ahead of him. I'd have Itoje, Ryan, Bierne (although I prefer him in the back row), Henderson and Kruis all ahead of him and there are others. There's enough on-field leadership amongst that bunch to make up for the loss of his and more on-field presence.

Well, this is all we were hearing when Gatland dropped BOD during the Australia tour. Strange how the wind changes when the agenda doesn't suit.

LordDowlais wrote:

George Carlin wrote:All joking aside, do English fans really not rate AWJ? How is that possible?

Nobody likes to make fun of blind national pride more than me (including mocking myself) but Alun does have a few undeniable things that make him quite good. You know, things like 148 caps, 5 6N trophies, 3 Grand Slams, 9 Lions test caps and a 6N Player of the Championship Award.

I am struggling to think of a better tour captain.

Exactly.

But right on cue, here comes the people who disagree, without really giving any evidence to the point.

'Look, I know that a few English fans on here do not rate him, and I know they see him as a direct threat to perhaps Farrell being captain.

But rather than just mock the journalism, can you just not agree/disagree and give you reasons to create some debate ? Other that just provoke the usual bickering on here. It would be refreshing for you to actually tell us why you disagree, so then at least we can then discuss it'

Good to know you listen to the points people make and don't just want to promote bickering!

I obviously agree that a great historic CV doesn't mean that you should start a test match tomorrow but I should also have pointed out that I thought he played very well in this season's 6N.

I wonder how many people keen to line up others ahead of him actually watched him?

Perhaps all of them did, in which case I'll have a Waggledance and take a long, hard look at me life.

What is true about two of the players named above (Faz and Itoje) is that they can both lose their rag and I don't want that in a captain. I disagree that there are obvious captaincy candidates aside from AWJ.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

George Carlin wrote:All joking aside, do English fans really not rate AWJ? How is that possible?

Nobody likes to make fun of blind national pride more than me (including mocking myself) but Alun does have a few undeniable things that make him quite good. You know, things like 148 caps, 5 6N trophies, 3 Grand Slams, 9 Lions test caps and a 6N Player of the Championship Award.

I am struggling to think of a better tour captain.

Exactly.

But right on cue, here comes the people who disagree, without really giving any evidence to the point.

'Look, I know that a few English fans on here do not rate him, and I know they see him as a direct threat to perhaps Farrell being captain.

But rather than just mock the journalism, can you just not agree/disagree and give you reasons to create some debate ? Other that just provoke the usual bickering on here. It would be refreshing for you to actually tell us why you disagree, so then at least we can then discuss it'

Good to know you listen to the points people make and don't just want to promote bickering!

You in particular have not made any points other than you "think" he is weak in the scrum because you saw it on the tele.

George Carlin wrote:I obviously agree that a great historic CV doesn't mean that you should start a test match tomorrow but I should also have pointed out that I thought he played very well in this season's 6N.

I wonder how many people keen to line up others ahead of him actually watched him?

Perhaps all of them did, in which case I'll have a Waggledance and take a long, hard look at me life.

What is true about two of the players named above (Faz and Itoje) is that they can both lose their rag and I don't want that in a captain. I disagree that there are obvious captaincy candidates aside from AWJ.

Biltong referred to something like that on Itoje, can't quite remember his choice of words, but can't remember seeing him lose his rag. He's normally the calm on within the Saracens team. Farrell got well annoyed when the ref didn't know the laws in the Wales game so fair enough!

George Carlin wrote:What is true about two of the players named above (Faz and Itoje) is that they can both lose their rag and I don't want that in a captain. I disagree that there are obvious captaincy candidates aside from AWJ.

I could not agree more.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

George Carlin wrote:All joking aside, do English fans really not rate AWJ? How is that possible?

Nobody likes to make fun of blind national pride more than me (including mocking myself) but Alun does have a few undeniable things that make him quite good. You know, things like 148 caps, 5 6N trophies, 3 Grand Slams, 9 Lions test caps and a 6N Player of the Championship Award.

I am struggling to think of a better tour captain.

Exactly.

But right on cue, here comes the people who disagree, without really giving any evidence to the point.

'Look, I know that a few English fans on here do not rate him, and I know they see him as a direct threat to perhaps Farrell being captain.

But rather than just mock the journalism, can you just not agree/disagree and give you reasons to create some debate ? Other that just provoke the usual bickering on here. It would be refreshing for you to actually tell us why you disagree, so then at least we can then discuss it'

Good to know you listen to the points people make and don't just want to promote bickering!

You in particular have not made any points other than you "think" he is weak in the scrum because you saw it on the tele.

Not quite true, I've disparaged his captaincy aura with the France game and questioned his fitness to perform at his highest level late on in games where he's been blowing a fair bit. But again, you want the discussion and not bicker so come back on those points. Or is it just a case of stats vs stats which we come back to? If thats a case great quote the stats and we can all then get on espr etc.

Re the scrum which some people don't seem to accept how many people would feel comfortable to say that Will Skelton is excellent there? If we accept that (which hopefully most would) it's all then just degrees of effectiveness.

LordDowlais wrote:

George Carlin wrote:What is true about two of the players named above (Faz and Itoje) is that they can both lose their rag and I don't want that in a captain. I disagree that there are obvious captaincy candidates aside from AWJ.

I could not agree more.

Same question as to George then. When has Itoje lost his rag? Just as a reminder that means to become suddenly very angry. It's an interesting point I'll grant and important, once I know what situations you're talking about we can come back to see how others have reacted in games.

George Carlin wrote:All joking aside, do English fans really not rate AWJ? How is that possible?

Nobody likes to make fun of blind national pride more than me (including mocking myself) but Alun does have a few undeniable things that make him quite good. You know, things like 148 caps, 5 6N trophies, 3 Grand Slams, 9 Lions test caps and a 6N Player of the Championship Award.

I am struggling to think of a better tour captain.

I personally don't know anyone who doesn't rate AWJ. Some may think that we might have combinations for the second row for starting against the Boks, which would not have him as a starter. But he could certainly do the role of tour captain with no complaints (except from those who will always complain). And if he plays his way into the XV, no complaints from my side of the Atlantic. Anyone who has his own hyperbaric chamber at home is just nuts enough to have my full respect!

On the other hand, I really don't know anyone who would be emotional about Farrell being left out of the Lions squad completely. That includes me.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

George Carlin wrote:What is true about two of the players named above (Faz and Itoje) is that they can both lose their rag and I don't want that in a captain. I disagree that there are obvious captaincy candidates aside from AWJ.

I could not agree more.

Same question as to George then. When has Itoje lost his rag? Just as a reminder that means to become suddenly very angry. It's an interesting point I'll grant and important, once I know what situations you're talking about we can come back to see how others have reacted in games.

He was getting very irate in the game against Wales in the 6N.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Hard to say who is best for the Lions.   Which is not saying who is best, just best for the Lions.  All names mentioned are very good.  

However, watching Biggar recently for Saints as well as Wales has been a revelation.  He is smart, tough, skilled and a clear leader.  In yesterday's game v. Leicester, Ford was relatively invisible in contrast.  Russell has played great in France, but those two pens in the 6 nations, the trip (a yellow which could well have been red) and the forearm to the chops v. France which almost cost them the game, decided it for me that he is too unreliable, which is a shame.  For me, Lions 10 comes down to Sexton and Biggar.  No idea who the third choice would be.  

Biggar did have that backline clicking along nicely but Tigers dominated territory. Ford was quiet but he kept Saints playing from their own half. Admittedly Ford had a much better fullback to help with the territory battle mind.

I don't think you can narrow down to Biggar and Sexton this early because form of some of the other players that could be in the picture may well be relevant between now and selection. There's some fairly hefty European games left though Biggar isn't invoked in those others will be. Biggar is certainly in amongst the contenders as is Sexton but discounting Russell is outrageous given what he can bring to the party (yes he needs to sort the discipline but Biggar needs to learn to keep his mouth shut). Ford and Farrell are probably moving to more outside chances, Sheedy if he can get fit and show some form could be a bolter, I though Carbeary back from injury could have been a bolter but with the league in Ireland finishing early has he got any meaningful games to show form?

I agree you are right about being early to narrow down the options. But, that is kind of what we are doing here, but get your point completely. Yes, Biggar does have a pretty big yapper, but that is quite different than a trip or a forearm. I really wanted Russell in the squad because he is the most creative 10 in the likely travelling bunch and is a real difference maker. But those kinds of things could get him sent off. And that makes me nervous.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not quite true, I've disparaged his captaincy aura with the France game and questioned his fitness to perform at his highest level late on in games where he's been blowing a fair bit. But again, you want the discussion and not bicker so come back on those points. Or is it just a case of stats vs stats which we come back to? If thats a case great quote the stats and we can all then get on espr etc.

Re the scrum which some people don't seem to accept how many people would feel comfortable to say that Will Skelton is excellent there? If we accept that (which hopefully most would) it's all then just degrees of effectiveness.

There were some very dubious and harsh calls at the end of that France game. Some of those calls were out of AWJ's hands, and there was nothing he could do about it.

As for the scrum, it's strange how he's has been the most capped player in that position and is a starter for his region if he is so week and poor, there must be better players around ..... oh wait. I think I will go what the professional coaches think.

I have had the pleasure of watch AWJ on numerous occasions, and not on the TV, I can tell you, the man is always everywhere, he is never far from the action, he is just a freak of nature. His fitness is not an issue for me.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

George Carlin wrote:What is true about two of the players named above (Faz and Itoje) is that they can both lose their rag and I don't want that in a captain. I disagree that there are obvious captaincy candidates aside from AWJ.

I could not agree more.

Same question as to George then. When has Itoje lost his rag? Just as a reminder that means to become suddenly very angry. It's an interesting point I'll grant and important, once I know what situations you're talking about we can come back to see how others have reacted in games.

He was getting very irate in the game against Wales in the 6N.

If that's the example then I think it's safe to say it's not an issue.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not quite true, I've disparaged his captaincy aura with the France game and questioned his fitness to perform at his highest level late on in games where he's been blowing a fair bit. But again, you want the discussion and not bicker so come back on those points. Or is it just a case of stats vs stats which we come back to? If thats a case great quote the stats and we can all then get on espr etc.

Re the scrum which some people don't seem to accept how many people would feel comfortable to say that Will Skelton is excellent there? If we accept that (which hopefully most would) it's all then just degrees of effectiveness.

There were some very dubious and harsh calls at the end of that France game. Some of those calls were out of AWJ's hands, and there was nothing he could do about it.

As for the scrum, it's strange how he's has been the most capped player in that position and is a starter for his region if he is so week and poor, there must be better players around ..... oh wait. I think I will go what the professional coaches think.

I have had the pleasure of watch AWJ on numerous occasions, and not on the TV, I can tell you, the man is always everywhere, he is never far from the action, he is just a freak of nature. His fitness is not an issue for me.

It was more the lack of control on the game. Bit headless. Re the scrum again, I'm saying his comparatively weak when looking at the others, like Lawes. I'm sorry but are you really now going down this thing about making judgements on players from tv? So if you're not at a game in person you can't comment? Or is it if you aren't a professional coach? Lets get some ground rules down!

Re the caps thing, does that just mean he's been preferred as a player to other Welsh players available at the time? Doesn't even necessarily even mean they preferred him for his set piece to others.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

George Carlin wrote:What is true about two of the players named above (Faz and Itoje) is that they can both lose their rag and I don't want that in a captain. I disagree that there are obvious captaincy candidates aside from AWJ.

I could not agree more.

Same question as to George then. When has Itoje lost his rag? Just as a reminder that means to become suddenly very angry. It's an interesting point I'll grant and important, once I know what situations you're talking about we can come back to see how others have reacted in games.

He was getting very irate in the game against Wales in the 6N.

If that's the example then I think it's safe to say it's not an issue.

The amount of pens he gave away would point to the fact that it is.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

George Carlin wrote:What is true about two of the players named above (Faz and Itoje) is that they can both lose their rag and I don't want that in a captain. I disagree that there are obvious captaincy candidates aside from AWJ.

I could not agree more.

Same question as to George then. When has Itoje lost his rag? Just as a reminder that means to become suddenly very angry. It's an interesting point I'll grant and important, once I know what situations you're talking about we can come back to see how others have reacted in games.

He was getting very irate in the game against Wales in the 6N.

If that's the example then I think it's safe to say it's not an issue.

The amount of pens he gave away would point to the fact that it is.

It really doesn't. I mean that point is fair enough to make if people so wish to do so but from the pens on the day even if you accept that they are all pens I fail to remember any given because he had lost control of his anger.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

George Carlin wrote:What is true about two of the players named above (Faz and Itoje) is that they can both lose their rag and I don't want that in a captain. I disagree that there are obvious captaincy candidates aside from AWJ.

I could not agree more.

Same question as to George then. When has Itoje lost his rag? Just as a reminder that means to become suddenly very angry. It's an interesting point I'll grant and important, once I know what situations you're talking about we can come back to see how others have reacted in games.

He was getting very irate in the game against Wales in the 6N.

When was that then? He was penalised five times in that game, 3 of them marginal. The most he reacted was to look exasperated once, here's a video of all five https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukKGIAehU40&t=120s

Do you still think he was getting "very irate"?

Itoje is weak in the scrum.

No 7&1/2 wrote: Re the scrum again, I'm saying his comparatively weak when looking at the others, like Lawes. I'm sorry but are you really now going down this thing about making judgements on players from tv? So if you're not at a game in person you can't comment?

I do not know what any of this is meant to mean. Sorry. But if you can quote me saying I saw it on the tele as it must be correct, then I will concede, but only you have mentioned this, so I will take this as more side stepping from you.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Or is it if you aren't a professional coach? Lets get some ground rules down!

Again, this very child like answering, with a loaded question when you are trying to advert the topic in hand.

No. I am not a professional coach. But I will take the fact that numerous professional coaches continue to pick him for his region and his national side over a lot of other players available, even at his ripe old age of 35 as grounds that what ever you think of him on a forum, to put it bluntly, pointless.

The Oracle wrote:Itoje is weak in the scrum.

Yikes, see why you stick to stats.

The Oracle wrote:Itoje is weak in the scrum.

I agree, I saw it on the tele.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I enjoyed reading this on the weekend, a good insight, from one of the worlds highest rated referees on why AWJ should be Lions captain:-

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/nigel-owens-explains-how-alun-20386811

Welsh referee in a Welsh publication backing a Welsh Lions captain shocker!

I'm assuming you are saying that tongue-in-cheek

He actually is and always has been extremely praising of Owen Farrell and Itoje beit on a English or Welsh media platform

So I would say he is pretty unbiased with regards to the Lions

With regards to Experience v Form, well AWJ considering he wasn't long back from injury proved what an athlete he is by his performance during the 6Ns. By far the most athletic and fit lock, you can look at the games or assess the stats to back that up. So if we are going by form you select the first team around him, if you want to select by experience you select the first team around him, if you want to select by awareness/discipline/proven leadership you select the team around him, if you want to gauge the opponent (SA) then you can look at most recent individual performances against them then you select the team around him.

All subjective of course but if we are talking "form" then it's
AWJ
Gray
MI/Ryan

However when it's all said and done, there's pretty much a certainty that Farrell and Itoje will start the Tests

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote: Re the scrum again, I'm saying his comparatively weak when looking at the others, like Lawes. I'm sorry but are you really now going down this thing about making judgements on players from tv? So if you're not at a game in person you can't comment?

I do not know what any of this is meant to mean. Sorry. But if you can quote me saying I saw it on the tele as it must be correct, then I will concede, but only you have mentioned this, so I will take this as more side stepping from you.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Or is it if you aren't a professional coach? Lets get some ground rules down!

Again, this very child like answering, with a loaded question when you are trying to advert the topic in hand.

No. I am not a professional coach. But I will take the fact that numerous professional coaches continue to pick him for his region and his national side over a lot of other players available, even at his ripe old age of 35 as grounds that what ever you think of him on a forum, to put it bluntly, pointless.

The point to the first was your call back that I've watched and judged Jones by watching him on tv was it not, hence the comment on meeting him in person and that you can tell me he is always everywhere, never far from the action, a freak of nature. Even if not thats simply your judgement from watching him the same as me with the setpiece. don't now why a couple of people have a problem with that.

The second is not child like, it is a response to you on 'what ever you think of him on a forum, to put it bluntly, pointless.' fair enough all our opinions are pointless, its a rugby forum!

p.s. your first point on this was that you wanted to promote discussion, that retort seems to want to shut down discussion.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Itoje is weak in the scrum.

Yikes, see why you stick to stats.

England used to have a ferocious scrum that you would really fear coming up against. It seems depowered somewhat since Itoje started. I think he’s weak in the scrum.

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Itoje is weak in the scrum.

Yikes, see why you stick to stats.

England used to have a ferocious scrum that you would really fear coming up against. It seems depowered somewhat since Itoje started.  I think he’s weak in the scrum.

Fair enough you think that. I think he's been one of the strongest locks we've had there since Shaw retired. All compartative like, of course he's looked much better with Kruis rather Lawes next to him and with Marler or Genge ahead of him rather than Vunipola. We also have the titbits from the England and Saracens coaches saying in their opinion he is Englands best scrummaging lock. But fair enough if you think he depowers our scrum. Too much of a risk to start the Lions tour?

What time period were you thinking of re the ferociousness of Englands scrum btw?

Most teams need to protect their fly half from having to make too many tackles, the Welsh have to game plan to put a bigger, stronger lad alongside their captain and "legend" so he doesn't go backwards at every contact! It must be very emasculating

No 7&1/2 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Itoje is weak in the scrum.

Yikes, see why you stick to stats.

England used to have a ferocious scrum that you would really fear coming up against. It seems depowered somewhat since Itoje started.  I think he’s weak in the scrum.

Fair enough you think that. I think he's been one of the strongest locks we've had there since Shaw retired. All compartative like, of course he's looked much better with Kruis rather Lawes next to him and with Marler or Genge ahead of him rather than Vunipola. We also have the titbits from the England and Saracens coaches saying in their opinion he is Englands best scrummaging lock. But fair enough if you think he depowers our scrum. Too much of a risk to start the Lions tour?

What time period were you thinking of re the ferociousness of Englands scrum btw?

I was only messing with you to be honest. I have no way of telling whether he’s a strong scrummaging lock or not.