Lions Announcement - Round 2

First topic message reminder :

Forwards: Tadhg Beirne, Jack Conan, Luke Cowan Dickie, Tom Curry, Zander Fagerson, Taulupe Faletau, Tadhg Furlong, Jamie George, Iain Henderson, Jonny Hill, Maro Itoje, Alun Wyn Jones, Wyn Jones, Courtney Lawes, Ken Owens, Andrew Porter, Sam Simmonds, Rory Sutherland, Justin Tipuric, Mako Vunipola, Hamish Watson.

Backs: Josh Adams, Bundee Aki, Dan Biggar, Elliot Daly, Gareth Davies, Owen Farrell, Chris Harris, Robbie Henshaw, Stuart Hogg, Conor Murray, Ali Price, Louis Rees-Zammit, Finn Russell, Duhan van der Merwe, Anthony Watson, Liam Williams.

No 7&1/2 wrote:If Tuilagi proves fitness he surely leapfrogs people as well.

Yeah he is better than Aki (who I like) but you would be taking a risk on Tuilagi.

Actually Stander if he is in SA is probably going to be on a standby list.

Collapse2005 wrote:Conan was just a head knock (return to play protocol) he should be fine.

Would be nice to know who is on the standby list. Some guys in my view in no order:

May
Ringrose
Sexton
Gray
Ryan
Slade
Navidi

Considering there was 50 emails/letters then we can assume there's at least 13-15 players on standby

FB - Keenan or 1/2p
Wing - May, Earls
Centre - Ringrose or Tuilagi or Davies
FH - Smith or Ford or Sexton?
SH - Hardy or Care
HK - Kelleher or Turner
FR - Sinckler, Marler, Genge, Francis, Porter, Healy
LK - Gray, Ryan, Hill, Beard
BR - Navidi, Underhill, Ritchie, Earl, JvdF, Fargerson,Vunipola

This would be the test team I would select, thoughts?

Curry over Beirne and Williams over Hogg would be fair enough too.

No 7&1/2 wrote:If Tuilagi proves fitness he surely leapfrogs people as well.

Agree on that

Collapse2005 wrote:

This would be the test team I would select, thoughts?

Curry over Beirne and Williams over Hogg would be fair enough too.

Cracking side

flyhalffactory wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Conan was just a head knock (return to play protocol) he should be fine.

Would be nice to know who is on the standby list. Some guys in my view in no order:

May
Ringrose
Sexton
Gray
Ryan
Slade
Navidi

Considering there was 50 emails/letters then we can assume there's at least 13-15 players on standby

FB - Keenan or 1/2p
Wing - May, Earls
Centre - Ringrose or Tuilagi or Davies
FH - Smith or Ford or Sexton?
SH - Hardy or Care
HK - Kelleher or Turner
FR - Sinckler, Marler, Genge, Francis, Porter, Healy
LK - Gray, Ryan, Hill, Beard
BR - Navidi, Underhill, Ritchie, Earl, JvdF, Vunipola

Id add Doris and Baird to that list, two absolute specimens.

As good as Marcus Smith might be in the Premiership is he really likely to go on a Lions tour having never played international rugby especially given the importance of his position as an outhalf?

Collapse2005 wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Conan was just a head knock (return to play protocol) he should be fine.

Would be nice to know who is on the standby list. Some guys in my view in no order:

May
Ringrose
Sexton
Gray
Ryan
Slade
Navidi

Considering there was 50 emails/letters then we can assume there's at least 13-15 players on standby

FB - Keenan or 1/2p
Wing - May, Earls
Centre - Ringrose or Tuilagi or Davies
FH - Smith or Ford or Sexton?
SH - Hardy or Care
HK - Kelleher or Turner
FR - Sinckler, Marler, Genge, Francis, Porter, Healy
LK - Gray, Ryan, Hill, Beard
BR - Navidi, Underhill, Ritchie, Earl, JvdF, Vunipola

Id add Doris and Baird to that list, two absolute specimens.

As good as Marcus Smith might be in the Premiership is he really likely to go on a Lions tour having never played international rugby especially given the importance of his position as an outhalf?

Collapse2005 wrote:Id add Doris and Baird to that list, two absolute specimens.

Crikey yes.....good call, I've added Fargerson in as well

Regarding Smith, he is playing better week by week, he was outstanding yesterday, sometimes you just can't ignore the juggernaut of sublime talent, speed and maturity that a player shows. How Eddie Jones has ignored him over Farrell for the last 2 seasons is criminal

Porter is already selected isn't he???

Yeah he is. He probably made the cut as he covers both sides. He is also really good.

I see Sam Simmonds has equalled the record for most tries by a forward in a single season of the Premiership (16) & is one try off equalling the highest number of tries scored currently held by Christian Wade & Dominic Chapman.

The Oracle wrote:Porter is already selected isn't he???

He is, my mistake

Oakdene wrote:I see Sam Simmonds has equalled the record for most tries by a forward in a single season of the Premiership (16) & is one try off equalling the highest number of tries scored currently held by Christian Wade & Dominic Chapman.

Fair play to him, there may be a lot of pressure on him to be a sensation in SA.

Collapse2005 wrote:

This would be the test team I would select, thoughts?

Curry over Beirne and Williams over Hogg would be fair enough too.

I cannot see it. Even when I enlarge it, or see it in full.

flyhalffactory wrote:

Regarding Smith, he is playing better week by week, he was outstanding yesterday, sometimes you just can't ignore the juggernaut of sublime talent, speed and maturity that a player shows. How Eddie Jones has ignored him over Farrell for the last 2 seasons is criminal

Yeah fair enough, Id like to see him play more.

Sometimes teams are built around players and Farrell seems to be that guy for England.

He is obviously very strong in lots of ways but I dunno I think he was very fortunate to be selected for the Lions.

LordDowlais wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

This would be the test team I would select, thoughts?

Curry over Beirne and Williams over Hogg would be fair enough too.

I cannot see it. Even when I enlarge it, or see it in full.

Sutherland
Owens
Furlong
AWJ
Itoje
Beirne
Watson
Falateau
Murray
Biggar
Henshaw
Aki
Duhan
Rhys Zammit
Hoggy

Can you like your own posts? I decided to give myself one for going to the trouble of typing it out.

Collapse2005 wrote:Can you like your own posts? I decided to give myself one for going to the trouble of typing it out.

Course you can, its the only likes Tighthead has ever had

decent side, I would swap Duhan for Adams. Perhaps Watson for Tipuric. But that might be my Welsh bias.

BamBam wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Can you like your own posts? I decided to give myself one for going to the trouble of typing it out.

Course you can, its the only likes Tighthead has ever had

Haha thanks

LordDowlais wrote:decent side, I would swap Duhan for Adams. Perhaps Watson for Tipuric. But that might be my Welsh bias.

Ha you could just pick the whole Welsh team LD

LordDowlais wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

This would be the test team I would select, thoughts?

Curry over Beirne and Williams over Hogg would be fair enough too.

I cannot see it. Even when I enlarge it, or see it in full.

Yes, it's the test side for a friendly in Lilliput.

Collapse2005 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:decent side, I would swap Duhan for Adams. Perhaps Watson for Tipuric. But that might be my Welsh bias.

Ha you could just pick the whole Welsh team LD

Imagine this place if that happened.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Oakdene wrote:I see Sam Simmonds has equalled the record for most tries by a forward in a single season of the Premiership (16) & is one try off equalling the highest number of tries scored currently held by Christian Wade & Dominic Chapman.

Fair play to him, there may be a lot of pressure on him to be a sensation in SA.

And the problem with that kind of player is that depending on what opportunities he gets and the space he finds he'll either be sensational or anonymous.

Well perhaps the dry conditions will suit him, he is also famous for being super fit so hopefully that means altitude wont phase him.

And that's the thing with Simmonds, he's either making 40m breaks or you just don't see him all game.

A certain Tom Croft had a fantastic impact 12 years ago but I have a feeling that SS just isn't going to get the chance to cut loose and he'll be remembered for being thrown around like a ragdoll by a SA behemoth, I hope I'm wrong.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:And that's the thing with Simmonds, he's either making 40m breaks or you just don't see him all game.

A certain Tom Croft had a fantastic impact 12 years ago but I have a feeling that SS just isn't going to get the chance to cut loose and he'll be remembered for being thrown around like a ragdoll by a SA behemoth, I hope I'm wrong.

Alternatively, a series of crippling injuries and COVID-19 protocol breaches forces the Lions to field a midfield of Tipuric and Simmonds, outside Finn Russell, accidentally stumbling across the most exciting combination.

WOW.

There is some resentment in Ireland towards Gatland and the Lions:-

https://www.independent.ie/sport/columnists/gatlands-indulgent-lions-selection-isnt-just-an-insult-to-irish-rugby-its-an-insult-to-the-intelligence-40403252.html

I'm glad I have not seen it on here though.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:And that's the thing with Simmonds, he's either making 40m breaks or you just don't see him all game.

A certain Tom Croft had a fantastic impact 12 years ago but I have a feeling that SS just isn't going to get the chance to cut loose and he'll be remembered for being thrown around like a ragdoll by a SA behemoth, I hope I'm wrong.

I was looking at some stats and it seems that Simmonds and Watson are pretty much the same size. It will be very interesting to see the kinds of comments that come out about either of their performances.

Also worth noting that although we are very used to SA behemoths in the pack they did give a few caps to Heinrich Brüssow who is very much on the same scale.

LordDowlais wrote:WOW.

There is some resentment in Ireland towards Gatland and the Lions:-

https://www.independent.ie/sport/columnists/gatlands-indulgent-lions-selection-isnt-just-an-insult-to-irish-rugby-its-an-insult-to-the-intelligence-40403252.html

I'm glad I have not seen it on here though.

I mean it is a bit ridiculous that England can finish 5th in the 6 nations and get the most players selected including quite a few players who are very off form and a couple who havent played international rugby and a lot that arent playing regular top flight rugby.

I wouldnt get as excited as the author of the article as I dont care that much but it is a bit silly. Ireland have also had more success against SA than other 6 nations teams in the last 20 years so having the least number of players selected seems harsh but its not that surprising really. Its hard to tell if Gatland really does hold a grudge against Ireland but he does seem to favour Welsh and English players. Ill enjoy the series all the same.

Just having a look as to whether Simmonds has ever played in SA conditions, no is the answer but looking at general experience none of us tour SA all that often. No wonder the Lions continues to be important for revenue and sharing of gates/tv comes up a lot.

Collapse2005 wrote:Ireland have also had more success against SA that other 6 nations teams in the last 20 years so having the least number of players selected seems harsh but its not that surprising really.

Just checked this, and in the las 20 years, Ireland have beaten them 6 times, Wales have beaten them 6 times, Scotland 2 wins, and England have beaten them 10 times.

So I do not think you are being accurate.

Collapse2005 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:WOW.

There is some resentment in Ireland towards Gatland and the Lions:-

https://www.independent.ie/sport/columnists/gatlands-indulgent-lions-selection-isnt-just-an-insult-to-irish-rugby-its-an-insult-to-the-intelligence-40403252.html

I'm glad I have not seen it on here though.

I mean it is a bit ridiculous that England can finish 5th in the 6 nations and get the most players selected including quite a few players who are very off form and a couple who havent played international rugby and a lot that arent playing regular top flight rugby.

I wouldnt get as excited as the author of the article as I dont care that much but it is a bit silly. Ireland have also had more success against SA than other 6 nations teams in the last 20 years so having the least number of players selected seems harsh but its not that surprising really. Its hard to tell if Gatland really does hold a grudge against Ireland but he does seem to favour Welsh and English players. Ill enjoy the series all the same.

I mentioned this before, Gatland was always likely to select players he knows well, it is human nature. This British and Irish Lions tour is very unique in the sense that SA will be an unknown not only to Gatland, but also to themselves as they haven’t played since the RWC final, they might be completely underdone, not gel as a unit and therefor have little cohesion as a team.

The biggest challenge Jacques Nienaber faces is whether he can get these guys together to share the same vision, Rassie had 19 weeks with his squad, Nienaber will have only a few weeks, and is yet to have an actual coaching session with the Boks. Does he have the same man management skills as Rassie?

Maybe so but that doesnt explain why he selected 11 English players. He has his reasons and thats fine however after a finish of fifth in the six nations you cant really expect non English media to not point this out.

Looking forward to the SA squad, are there any new players that may be added to the squad? Will all the overseas guys be brought back? Kriel, DeAlende, Pollard, DeKlerk, Louw etc. I also was wondering how big an impact having a new coach would be. I think from memory Peter de Villiers had been coach for a while when his SA side faced the Lions.

LordDowlais wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Ireland have also had more success against SA that other 6 nations teams in the last 20 years so having the least number of players selected seems harsh but its not that surprising really.

Just checked this, and in the las 20 years, Ireland have beaten them 6 times, Wales have beaten them 6 times, Scotland 2 wins, and England have beaten them 10 times.

So I do not think you are being accurate.

7 of Englands wins came between 2000 and 2007, they have struggled v SA since then. True though Ireland and Wales both have 6 wins but Wales have played SA 20 plus times Ireland have played them 12 times in the same period. Suffice to say Ireland has the better recent record than both England and Wales.

Win ratio over 20 years:
Ireland 50%
England 42%
Wales 27%

John Smit was on rugby tonight last sunday giving his perspective on the Lions squad and the tour in general.

His take was that there would be a lot of overseas players in the SA squad and test team as they would be significantly more battle hardened, largely basing it on the WC winning team. He felt the home players would just be a bit undercooked due to lack of serious game time recently.

Collapse2005 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Ireland have also had more success against SA that other 6 nations teams in the last 20 years so having the least number of players selected seems harsh but its not that surprising really.

Just checked this, and in the las 20 years, Ireland have beaten them 6 times, Wales have beaten them 6 times, Scotland 2 wins, and England have beaten them 10 times.

So I do not think you are being accurate.

7 of Englands wins came between 2000 and 2007, they have struggled v SA since then. True though Ireland and Wales both have 6 wins but Wales have played SA 20 plus times Ireland have played them 12 times in the same period. Suffice to say Ireland has the better recent record than both England and Wales.

In the last five years;

England 3 wins in 6 matches
Ireland 2 wins in 4 matches
Wales 4 wins in 5 matches

Not sure i'd describe that as Ireland having a better recent record against South Africa myself.

Never realised before that Wales have never won a game in SA.

Soul Requiem wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Ireland have also had more success against SA that other 6 nations teams in the last 20 years so having the least number of players selected seems harsh but its not that surprising really.

Just checked this, and in the las 20 years, Ireland have beaten them 6 times, Wales have beaten them 6 times, Scotland 2 wins, and England have beaten them 10 times.

So I do not think you are being accurate.

7 of Englands wins came between 2000 and 2007, they have struggled v SA since then. True though Ireland and Wales both have 6 wins but Wales have played SA 20 plus times Ireland have played them 12 times in the same period. Suffice to say Ireland has the better recent record than both England and Wales.

In the last five years;

England 3 wins in 6 matches
Ireland 2 wins in 4 matches
Wales 4 wins in 5 matches

Not sure i'd describe that as Ireland having a better recent record against South Africa myself.

3 of the Ireland games in that range you give were in SA, Ireland won one of them with 14 men.

3 of Wales 4 wins in the last 5 as you describe were all in Cardiff, with one on neutral ground and the one loss at the RWC, none in SA or at altitude etc.

Personally I think Ireland's record is better particularly if you broaden the range but happy to agree to disagree.

Given we're going back over several years for Irelands record vs SA surely it's fair to say that England are very under represented by the squad too.

I think by every possible metric England are fairly fortunate to have 11 players selected this time round.

If you judge by 6 nations probably fair. Last year we won both comps though so not by every possible metric. Even the posed question of discipline is watered down when considering how many players are going after getting red cards recently.

Collapse2005 wrote:Maybe so but that doesnt explain why he selected 11 English players. He has his reasons and thats fine however after a finish of fifth in the six nations you cant really expect non English media to not point this out.

Looking forward to the SA squad, are there any new players that may be added to the squad? Will all the overseas guys be brought back? Kriel, DeAlende, Pollard, DeKlerk, Louw etc. I also was wondering how big an impact having a new coach would be. I think from memory Peter de Villiers had been coach for a while when his SA side faced the Lions.

Yes the overseas players will be brought back, however how the logistics will work in when clubs will release players is of course the big question. So time together will be limited.

De Villiers was coach for 18 months by the time the Lions came, and they had played a dozen or so matches under him already. Difference then was the squad was settled with many senior players.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Given we're going back over several years for Irelands record vs SA surely it's fair to say that England are very under represented by the squad too.

Yeah, I don’t think the record over many years has much weight in this instance. SA rugby was in turmoil since the previous RWC and under Coetzee we were just crap. Record losses, first losses to Italy etc.

Besides Wales had won 4/5 vs the Boks during that cycle.

Soul Requiem wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Ireland have also had more success against SA that other 6 nations teams in the last 20 years so having the least number of players selected seems harsh but its not that surprising really.

Just checked this, and in the las 20 years, Ireland have beaten them 6 times, Wales have beaten them 6 times, Scotland 2 wins, and England have beaten them 10 times.

So I do not think you are being accurate.

7 of Englands wins came between 2000 and 2007, they have struggled v SA since then. True though Ireland and Wales both have 6 wins but Wales have played SA 20 plus times Ireland have played them 12 times in the same period. Suffice to say Ireland has the better recent record than both England and Wales.

In the last five years;

England 3 wins in 6 matches
Ireland 2 wins in 4 matches
Wales 4 wins in 5 matches

Not sure i'd describe that as Ireland having a better recent record against South Africa myself.

DAMMITT you posted before I could.

Look forward to Ireland playing SA at the wotld cup in France in the group stages. I have tickets to that game. Its the first time the two sides have met at the RWC, gonna be a cracker.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Never realised before that Wales have never won a game in SA.

Last time out they were very close (31 30)

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Never realised before that Wales have never won a game in SA.

Last time out they were very close (31 30)

Looks like it's been a long time since we went there.

Collapse2005 wrote:I think by every possible metric England are fairly fortunate to have 11 players selected this time round.

As you've posted about 30 times...........

In reality though, it's not really 11.

England – 11 9

Wales – 10

Ireland – 8

Scotland – 8

As Simmonds hasn't played for England for a number of years and Lawes was injured for the 6N, does that make it any easier to take?

And.....

England won the 6N and the AI competition last year and you could argue that the Saracens players were not match fit for the 6N just passed, that's 5 more players......

England – 9 4

Wales – 10

Ireland – 8

Scotland – 8

Surely you're happy now?

SA overall record at home vs England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland in the Professional era.

England 11 matches, 8 wins, 2 losses, 1 draw
Ireland 7 matches, 6 wins, 1 loss
Wales 8 matches, 8 wins
Scotland 6 matches, 6 wins

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Never realised before that Wales have never won a game in SA.

Last time out they were very close (31 30)

Liam Williams cost us by making a no arms tackle and SA were awarded a penalty try.