Lions Announcement - Round 2

First topic message reminder :

Forwards: Tadhg Beirne, Jack Conan, Luke Cowan Dickie, Tom Curry, Zander Fagerson, Taulupe Faletau, Tadhg Furlong, Jamie George, Iain Henderson, Jonny Hill, Maro Itoje, Alun Wyn Jones, Wyn Jones, Courtney Lawes, Ken Owens, Andrew Porter, Sam Simmonds, Rory Sutherland, Justin Tipuric, Mako Vunipola, Hamish Watson.

Backs: Josh Adams, Bundee Aki, Dan Biggar, Elliot Daly, Gareth Davies, Owen Farrell, Chris Harris, Robbie Henshaw, Stuart Hogg, Conor Murray, Ali Price, Louis Rees-Zammit, Finn Russell, Duhan van der Merwe, Anthony Watson, Liam Williams.

I suspect the Sarries players all will to sort of shock them back into first class rugby so that's Vunipola, George, Itoje, Russell and Daly nailed on. You'd expect Exeter to make the final so that's their contingent out of the window, so Faletau will start. AWJ will probably play as it's the first game. I think there could be a sizeable Scottish contingent as a sweetener to the crowd.

The more I think about it, the weirder a game it seems to play. In international rugby terms, Japan and South Africa are about as far apart as you can get. Tweaking tactics for a singular Japan game seems an odd move a few weeks out from the test. Equally Japan are good enough to give a scratch Lions team with the wrong tactics a bloody nose. Losing the first game of the tour, to Japan, at home would be an utter disaster.

I reckon the Sarries boys will play but aside from that it'll be the strongest squad available to them. Assuming Exeter make the Premiership final and Racing make the Top 14 final that's LCD, Hill, Simmonds, Russell and Hogg out of the picture.

The Oracle wrote:

Hazel Sapling wrote:Some strange selections. The forwards are not very Gatland-esque (3 smaller opensides and a small no.8) whilst the centres are not exactly designed for much finesse in attack.

As much as some of those players can consider themselves fortunate to get into the squad, I assume some of the unlucky players (Stander, Navidi, J Gray/Ryan, Sinckler, Sexton) will have a chance to come in if injuries hit.

As for Scots selections, I think we did overly well in winning the expected 50:50's (or even some of the 40:60s) and yet somehow J Gray did not get in. Can only think Gatland is only going to use them for the easy midweek games....

What is a Gatland-esque 7 and 8 then? As he’s always picked from Martyn Williams, Tipuric, Warburton and Faletau for his 7s and 8s when coaching Wales for 11 years. Where’s the monsters in there?!

You may have a point.

Warburton was big for an openside (6'2, 118kgs according to wiki).

Faletau is listed at 111kg which looks odd, thought he was around the 115kg mark. About 10kg bigger than Sam Simmonds is listed who is similar in stature to Moriarty.

Last initial Lions squad, in the backrow Tips was the only player listed beneath 105kg (POM and O'Brien are listed at around 108kg). This time he has picked 3 (Sam Simmonds, Watson and Tipuric). Somehow Tom Curry is listed at 110kg which would place him at around Faletau's size.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

R!skysports wrote:AWJ as captain will also be a discussion, is he going to be the best 2nd row and get selected for the tests?

Yes, he is the best, he is the 6N winning captain and his stats surpass all others in field during the 6N. He will start every test.

Just a question of whether he makes the 60 min mark this time then?

Why ?

He lasts full games for Wales. What an odd statement to make.

Looking at the last tour. Even you didn't want him then like.

Yes I did. Why do you say this all the time ?

https://www.606v2.com/t65971p200-new-zealand-v-british-irish-lions-1-july

Page 3, page 5. there were others too. Don't worry all memories fade sometimes. Jones started that tour really poorly, hooked early in each game. Sometimes we look back too fondly.

'Why are our English members constantly bringing this up when we are all agreeing on it ? We are not debating AWJ, we all agree, he should not be there.'

George Carlin wrote:James Ryan is the most surprising omission for me.

I haven't been watching Sinckler. Is he really that big a loss? Genuinely open question because I just don't know.

Jonny May on the other hand comes down to a question of what gameplan the coaches want. Which player would you lose for May? If you need something different on the wing, then the physicality of VdM makes perfect sense. RZ and May would seem to be the more interchangeable options.

Frankly yes. He hasn't been quite at his peak since his move to Bristol but he's by far the best English tighthead and for me number 2 in the world behind Furlong. He's also in a similar mold to Furlong as he's excellent with ball in hand.
May agai, not great this year but you can now say that aout several guys who did go. Simply able to produce something out of nothing though, excellent all round, doesn't have a weakness. Given the choices inside the wingers, you probably want his kick chasing ability as well, no one better.

George Carlin wrote:James Ryan is the most surprising omission for me.

I haven't been watching Sinckler. Is he really that big a loss? Genuinely open question because I just don't know.

Jonny May on the other hand comes down to a question of what gameplan the coaches want. Which player would you lose for May? If you need something different on the wing, then the physicality of VdM makes perfect sense. RZ and May would seem to be the more interchangeable options.

Sinckler offers 90% of what Furlong does, and allows you to keep the game plan the same. Both are very good for props at taking the ball at first receiver and being a threat to carry / pass wide / offload - if that is an area the coaches want to plan around, then having two options at tighthead who can do it is a great feature for a squad. He's also been scrummaging well and is good at the breakdown. I rate Fagerson and Porter, but Sinckler has more strings to his bow for me

If I can't drop Daly as he appears to be the cover as many positions as possible option, I'd have taken May over Adams. Adams has a great try scoring record, but I'd be far happier to see him on the opposition team sheet than May, RZ, Duhan or Watson.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

R!skysports wrote:AWJ as captain will also be a discussion, is he going to be the best 2nd row and get selected for the tests?

Yes, he is the best, he is the 6N winning captain and his stats surpass all others in field during the 6N. He will start every test.

Just a question of whether he makes the 60 min mark this time then?

Why ?

He lasts full games for Wales. What an odd statement to make.

Looking at the last tour. Even you didn't want him then like.

Yes I did. Why do you say this all the time ?

Because you said repeatedly you didn't. Even quoted you.

Important question then, who is the captain for the last 20 in each test?

NO.

As I pointed out to you, that was me theoretically agreeing, then asking who everyone thought should have gone instead. now, can you please put this one to bed ?

Hazel Sapling wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

Hazel Sapling wrote:Some strange selections. The forwards are not very Gatland-esque (3 smaller opensides and a small no.8) whilst the centres are not exactly designed for much finesse in attack.

As much as some of those players can consider themselves fortunate to get into the squad, I assume some of the unlucky players (Stander, Navidi, J Gray/Ryan, Sinckler, Sexton) will have a chance to come in if injuries hit.

As for Scots selections, I think we did overly well in winning the expected 50:50's (or even some of the 40:60s) and yet somehow J Gray did not get in. Can only think Gatland is only going to use them for the easy midweek games....

What is a Gatland-esque 7 and 8 then? As he’s always picked from Martyn Williams, Tipuric, Warburton and Faletau for his 7s and 8s when coaching Wales for 11 years. Where’s the monsters in there?!

You may have a point.

Warburton was big for an openside (6'2, 118kgs according to wiki).

Faletau is listed at 111kg which looks odd, thought he was around the 115kg mark. About 10kg bigger than Sam Simmonds is listed who is similar in stature to Moriarty.

Last initial Lions squad, in the backrow Tips was the only player listed beneath 105kg (POM and O'Brien are listed at around 108kg). This time he has picked 3 (Sam Simmonds, Watson and Tipuric). Somehow Tom Curry is listed at 110kg which would place him at around Faletau's size.

That can’t be right for warburton! 118kg is 18.5 stone! That’s prop weight! Warburton really struggled to make weight for his position. He’s much smaller normally and always had to bulk up, but struggled to keep it on. Definitely not 18.5 stone though! He’s listed as 103kg by the Irish Times when detailing the squad for the last Lions tour. Sounds more realistic to me

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

R!skysports wrote:AWJ as captain will also be a discussion, is he going to be the best 2nd row and get selected for the tests?

Yes, he is the best, he is the 6N winning captain and his stats surpass all others in field during the 6N. He will start every test.

Just a question of whether he makes the 60 min mark this time then?

Why ?

He lasts full games for Wales. What an odd statement to make.

Looking at the last tour. Even you didn't want him then like.

Yes I did. Why do you say this all the time ?

Because you said repeatedly you didn't. Even quoted you.

Important question then, who is the captain for the last 20 in each test?

NO.

As I pointed out to you, that was me theoretically agreeing, then asking who everyone thought should have gone instead. now, can you please put this one to bed ?

I have done by linking and quoting you above. Call on the last 20? Still Hogg for you?

BamBam wrote:...
If I can't drop Daly as he appears to be the cover as many positions as possible option, I'd have taken May over Adams. Adams has a great try scoring record, but I'd be far happier to see him on the opposition team sheet than May, RZ, Duhan or Watson.

Interesting comment - as a football comparison it would be that Adams is a bit Gary Lineker-esque: Gets on the end of things and scores but doesn't do that much in creating the chance (still a very handy skill to have). May certainly has greater potential to make something out of nothing, but his form during the 6Ns this year was nowhere near his last couple of seasons.

I agree regarding Daly - looks like one of those picks you sometimes need in a squad of limited numbers, as someone you can drop in to a number of positions and get an OK performance. Third choice for me in any position from outside centre to full-back, but probably saved a couple of extra players in the squad by having him there.

BamBam wrote:

If I can't drop Daly as he appears to be the cover as many positions as possible option, I'd have taken May over Adams. Adams has a great try scoring record, but I'd be far happier to see him on the opposition team sheet than May, RZ, Duhan or Watson.

I would definitely have selected May instead of Adams, there's no comparison when it comes to their try scoring records against tier one nations.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

R!skysports wrote:AWJ as captain will also be a discussion, is he going to be the best 2nd row and get selected for the tests?

Yes, he is the best, he is the 6N winning captain and his stats surpass all others in field during the 6N. He will start every test.

Just a question of whether he makes the 60 min mark this time then?

Why ?

He lasts full games for Wales. What an odd statement to make.

Looking at the last tour. Even you didn't want him then like.

Yes I did. Why do you say this all the time ?

Because you said repeatedly you didn't. Even quoted you.

Important question then, who is the captain for the last 20 in each test?

NO.

As I pointed out to you, that was me theoretically agreeing, then asking who everyone thought should have gone instead. now, can you please put this one to bed ?

Oh yeah, how clear that is from this post, no idea why 7.5 has picked up on it

LordDowlais wrote:

beshocked wrote:Not sure how anyone can think AWJ is the form pick though.

Why are our English members constantly bringing this up when we are all agreeing on it ? We are not debating AWJ, we all agree, he should not be there.

Look 7.5 can you please stop this ? You are not doing anything for the debate or forum.

There is no reason to suggest that AWJ will not play a full game. But if he doesn't then it could anyone on the pitch.

LordDowlais wrote:Look 7.5 can you please stop this ? You are not doing anything for the debate or forum.

There is no reason to suggest that AWJ will not play a full game. But if he doesn't then it could anyone on the pitch.

I can stop as I've proved myself. Just looking at the tour 4 year ago, fairly consistently Jones came off at 50 mins (47, 58 and 49 mins to be exact). Don't think its a stretch to talk about who replaces him.

Really didn't see Sinckler and Ryan not making it. Fagerson and Hill are both fine players and will do a job, but those are the most surprising decisions for me in the forwards.

I'm stunned that Harris makes it over Ringrose. Harris had a fine 6 Nations, but plenty Scots, including myself, think Harris is lucky to start for Scotland. I'm less surprised by Daly, and I know he's versatile, but I wouldn't have picked him either. We don't need cover at 15, he isn't very good on the wing and there were better options at 13 (Ringrose/Slade/Davies/Tuilagi).

Still, not a bad selection by any means, and I'm pleased that Scotland's improvements in recent years have been recognised.

The Oracle wrote:

Hazel Sapling wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

Hazel Sapling wrote:Some strange selections. The forwards are not very Gatland-esque (3 smaller opensides and a small no.8) whilst the centres are not exactly designed for much finesse in attack.

As much as some of those players can consider themselves fortunate to get into the squad, I assume some of the unlucky players (Stander, Navidi, J Gray/Ryan, Sinckler, Sexton) will have a chance to come in if injuries hit.

As for Scots selections, I think we did overly well in winning the expected 50:50's (or even some of the 40:60s) and yet somehow J Gray did not get in. Can only think Gatland is only going to use them for the easy midweek games....

What is a Gatland-esque 7 and 8 then? As he’s always picked from Martyn Williams, Tipuric, Warburton and Faletau for his 7s and 8s when coaching Wales for 11 years. Where’s the monsters in there?!

You may have a point.

Warburton was big for an openside (6'2, 118kgs according to wiki).

Faletau is listed at 111kg which looks odd, thought he was around the 115kg mark. About 10kg bigger than Sam Simmonds is listed who is similar in stature to Moriarty.

Last initial Lions squad, in the backrow Tips was the only player listed beneath 105kg (POM and O'Brien are listed at around 108kg). This time he has picked 3 (Sam Simmonds, Watson and Tipuric). Somehow Tom Curry is listed at 110kg which would place him at around Faletau's size.

That can’t be right for warburton! 118kg is 18.5 stone! That’s prop weight! Warburton really struggled to make weight for his position. He’s much smaller normally and always had to bulk up, but struggled to keep it on. Definitely not 18.5 stone though! He’s listed as 103kg by the Irish Times when detailing the squad for the last Lions tour. Sounds more realistic to me

Warburton was a big open-side, I can recall his weight being similar to that of Roberts and North, so around or just under 17 stone.

funnyExiledScot wrote:. I'm less surprised by Daly, and I know he's versatile, but I wouldn't have picked him either. We don't need cover at 15, he isn't very good on the wing and there were better options at 13

He will more than likely be a midweek player.

We have LRZ, Adams, DVM, Hogg, Liam Williams, Anthony Watson, who are all better, and in the centers we have Henshaw, Aki, Harris and Farrell.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

I'm stunned that Harris makes it over Ringrose. Harris had a fine 6 Nations, but plenty Scots, including myself, think Harris is lucky to start for Scotland. I'm less surprised by Daly, and I know he's versatile, but I wouldn't have picked him either..

I think a lot of Scots used to think like that FES.

For a long time he could not do anything right, purely because he was not Huw Jones and did not score coast to coast tries. I think most of us have come round to him now though, as he has been quietly excellent for many games now, very consistent and makes other players look good, even if he does not do the fancy stuff himself. One thing we are going to have to do to get a result out there is be defensively solid and he was probably the best defensive OC in the 6N. There are plently of flare players in this squad, but every succesful team needs its grafters as well.

I think he would have gone even if George North had been fit and it would have been Aki that missed out.

I'm feeling pretty deflated. Gatland was always going to stick with solid and physical, but from that selection it looks like a starting team with a 2nd row at blindside, concentrating on moving round the pitch with kicks and lineouts directed by Murray & Farrell. Then crash ball from Henshaw & Aki, with the handfull of exciting players in the back three only getting the ball when the Boks kick to them.

On the plus side, the midweek selections might produce some enjoyable games.

Weakest Centres selection ever ?

If Henshaw gets injured there are no class centres, in the squad, and there is no credible 13.

Aki and Harris are nowhere near good enough

Compared with May, Adams is a better finisher but May can run in from 50 or more metres.  However he has been out of form this year, so a fair call.

Surprised by Ryan's absence and in a way Hill's inclusion.  Gray must have been very close as well.  Lawes I can see as a second Beirne and is a good player if fully fit.  Otherwise few blindsides though presumably Conan can play there.

In the centres, Harris is under-rated and may surprise people. Daley I can just about see as he plays centre, wing, and full-back and can kick.

Sinckler is a strange omission, and Vunipola is fortunate.

Just hope everyone plays well.

Am I alone in thinking that this is actually a decent squad ?

The test team should be pretty strong. I would go for:-

1. Wyn Jones
2. Ken Owens
3. Tadhg Furlong
4. AWJ
5. Itoje
6. Tom Curry/Tadhg Beirne
7. Justin Tipuric
8. Taulupe Faletau
9. Connor Murray
10. Dan Biggar
11. Josh Adams
12. Robbie Henshaw
13. Bundi Aki/Chris Harris
14. LRZ
15. Hogg

Bench

Liam Williams
Gareth Davies
Owen Farrell
LCD
Zander Furgason
Courtney Lawes
Hamish Watson
Andrew Porter

For the tighter decisions I used my Welsh bias, but you could swap one of the Welsh wingers for DVM and it wouldn't weaken that side.

With no place for Ringrose or Slade, writing off Daly as a midweek make-up full-back seems premature. Gatland rates the Englishman. If he thought all he was capable of was the form he showed for England, then he wouldn't be in the squad.

Who are the potential goal kickers in the squad? Biggar, Farrell, Russell, Hogg, Murray & Daly all have Test points. Anyone else? If Murray is scrum half and Hogg full back, then we'll definitely have three kickers with any of the fly half choices. If Farrell is selected at inside centre, then we'll have four. If Daly then gets a slot on the wing, or outside centre, we'll have five. I wonder how may international sides have had five potential goalkickers in their team? Probably just a curiosity rather than any advantage, unless there is a horrendous injury toll.

geoff999rugby wrote:Weakest Centres selection ever ?

If Henshaw gets injured there are no class centres, in the squad, and there is no credible 13.

Aki and Harris are nowhere near good enough

Clearly Simmonds has been selected as a centre.

LordDowlais wrote:Am I alone in thinking that this is actually a decent squad ?

The test team should be pretty strong. I would go for:-

1. Wyn Jones
2. Ken Owens
3. Tadhg Furlong
4. AWJ
5. Itoje
6. Tom Curry/Tadhg Beirne
7. Justin Tipuric
8. Taulupe Faletau
9. Connor Murray
10. Dan Biggar
11. Josh Adams
12. Robbie Henshaw
13. Bundi Aki/Chris Harris
14. LRZ
15. Hogg

Bench

Liam Williams
Gareth Davies
Owen Farrell
LCD
Zander Furgason
Courtney Lawes
Hamish Watson
Andrew Porter

For the tighter decisions I used my Welsh bias, but you could swap one of the Welsh wingers for DVM and it wouldn't weaken that side.

Strong side

LordDowlais wrote:Am I alone in thinking that this is actually a decent squad ?

The test team should be pretty strong. I would go for:-

1. Wyn Jones
2. Ken Owens
3. Tadhg Furlong
4. AWJ
5. Itoje
6. Tom Curry/Tadhg Beirne
7. Justin Tipuric
8. Taulupe Faletau
9. Connor Murray
10. Dan Biggar
11. Josh Adams
12. Robbie Henshaw
13. Bundi Aki/Chris Harris
14. LRZ
15. Hogg

Bench

Liam Williams
Gareth Davies
Owen Farrell
LCD
Zander Furgason
Courtney Lawes
Hamish Watson
Andrew Porter

For the tighter decisions I used my Welsh bias, but you could swap one of the Welsh wingers for DVM and it wouldn't weaken that side.

Any squad like this there will be a few debateable picks, but I think in the main these are confined to what would normally be the midweek team players. The biggest question mark is at centre, but that's primarily because we don't have outstanding players available there and it is a position where injuries have not been kind.

Very Welsh biased 23 - be surprised if Tipuric starts at 7 and moreso if neither Anthony Watson or DvdM are on a wing.

As of today I'll go:

1. Jones
2. LCD
3. Furlong
4. Itoje
5. AWJ
6. Beirne
7. Curry
8. Faletau

9. Murray
10. Russell
11. VDM
12. Farrell
13. Henshaw
14. Watson
15. Hogg

16. Owens
17. Sutherland
18. Porter
19. Henderson
20. Watson
21. Davies
22. Biggar
23. Daly

Hooker is tight and won't be finalised until the Tests arrive. 7 is also very close and I'd happily have Tipuric in there if there's an attacking gameplan which makes the most of his skills.

The midfield is where I've been thrown off a little. Sexton was my Test out-half - but I think he is one of the few players who could be brought in late and still make the Test 23. I've gone with Russell instead as I think a Biggar-Farrell 10-12 axis would just be too stale. If Ringrose, Slade, Tuilagi or J Davies were picked to partner Henshaw (who is a near cert at this stage) then I think we'd have enough guile that I wouldn't need to 'risk' Russell.

There are better centres, better wingers and better full backs than Daly - but I find myself forced to select him as no. 23 as nobody else provides enough cover across the backline. In fairness to him his long-range goalkicking particularly at altitude could be very handy.

dummy_half wrote:Very Welsh biased 23 - be surprised if Tipuric starts at 7 and moreso if neither Anthony Watson or DvdM are on a wing.

I did admit that for the tight calls, but I do think AWJ, Taulupe Faletau, Dan Biggar and Josh Adams are pretty nailed on, out of the 9 I picked in the 23.

theslosty wrote:As of today I'll go:

1. Jones
2. LCD
3. Furlong
4. Itoje
5. AWJ
6. Beirne
7. Curry
8. Faletau

9. Murray
10. Russell
11. VDM
12. Farrell
13. Henshaw
14. Watson
15. Hogg

16. Owens
17. Sutherland
18. Porter
19. Henderson
20. Watson
21. Davies
22. Biggar
23. Daly

Hooker is tight and won't be finalised until the Tests arrive. 7 is also very close and I'd happily have Tipuric in there if there's an attacking gameplan which makes the most of his skills.

The midfield is where I've been thrown off a little. Sexton was my Test out-half - but I think he is one of the few players who could be brought in late and still make the Test 23. I've gone with Russell instead as I think a Biggar-Farrell 10-12 axis would just be too stale. If Ringrose, Slade, Tuilagi or J Davies were picked to partner Henshaw (who is a near cert at this stage) then I think we'd have enough guile that I wouldn't need to 'risk' Russell.

There are better centres, better wingers and better full backs than Daly - but I find myself forced to select him as no. 23 as nobody else provides enough cover across the backline. In fairness to him his long-range goalkicking particularly at altitude could be very handy.

No Farrell ???? The darling of English rugby ?

I reckon he has been picked as center and not 10, so he would at least make the bench.

LordDowlais wrote:

theslosty wrote:As of today I'll go:

1. Jones
2. LCD
3. Furlong
4. Itoje
5. AWJ
6. Beirne
7. Curry
8. Faletau

9. Murray
10. Russell
11. VDM
12. Farrell
13. Henshaw
14. Watson
15. Hogg

16. Owens
17. Sutherland
18. Porter
19. Henderson
20. Watson
21. Davies
22. Biggar
23. Daly

Hooker is tight and won't be finalised until the Tests arrive. 7 is also very close and I'd happily have Tipuric in there if there's an attacking gameplan which makes the most of his skills.

The midfield is where I've been thrown off a little. Sexton was my Test out-half - but I think he is one of the few players who could be brought in late and still make the Test 23. I've gone with Russell instead as I think a Biggar-Farrell 10-12 axis would just be too stale. If Ringrose, Slade, Tuilagi or J Davies were picked to partner Henshaw (who is a near cert at this stage) then I think we'd have enough guile that I wouldn't need to 'risk' Russell.

There are better centres, better wingers and better full backs than Daly - but I find myself forced to select him as no. 23 as nobody else provides enough cover across the backline. In fairness to him his long-range goalkicking particularly at altitude could be very handy.

 No Farrell ???? The darling of English rugby ?

I reckon he has been picked as center and not 10, so he would at least make the bench.

Look closer. Read what has been typed.

OK, I have just read it closer, and still stand by what I have said.

I'm not going to have a stab at the first test yet. Too much is going to change, bound to be a couple of injuries by then given the season hasn't even ended. Has any stand by list been released or will Gatland have free reign? He hasn't been afraid to pick off summer tours previously but not sure if there is agreement or restriction this time?

LordDowlais wrote:OK, I have just read it closer, and still stand by what I have said.

Great what did you think of his pick at 12? or his reasoning of 'The midfield is where I've been thrown off a little. Sexton was my Test out-half - but I think he is one of the few players who could be brought in late and still make the Test 23. I've gone with Russell instead as I think a Biggar-Farrell 10-12 axis would just be too stale.'

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:OK, I have just read it closer, and still stand by what I have said.

Great what did you think of his pick at 12? or his reasoning of 'The midfield is where I've been thrown off a little. Sexton was my Test out-half - but I think he is one of the few players who could be brought in late and still make the Test 23. I've gone with Russell instead as I think a Biggar-Farrell 10-12 axis would just be too stale.'

Sorry, I missed that one.

I wouldn't start with Farrell personally, he isn't as good as Henshaw or Aki, but Gatland will probably start him, and we will spend the whole tour moaning about his defence and lack of ability to release the backs.

But if he is picked, I hope he plays a stormer.

LordDowlais wrote:

dummy_half wrote:Very Welsh biased 23 - be surprised if Tipuric starts at 7 and moreso if neither Anthony Watson or DvdM are on a wing.

I did admit that for the tight calls, but I do think AWJ, Taulupe Faletau, Dan Biggar and Josh Adams are pretty nailed on, out of the 9 I picked in the 23.

I'm not sure Josh Adams is nailed on for the Test side.

You did moan last time about him if we're allowed to bring that up. As with the England thread you get the best of Farrell with a more attacking 9 than Murray. Or with that side chosen Russell Farrell could be good. Meh. I can't mister much enthusiasm as yet with this squad. Maybe it will change through the warm ups.

bsando wrote:Time to get behind the squad and cheer all of these players on. Looking at that Lions squad above you can't help but get excited about the rugby that is going to be played.

Far too soon for that.....plenty of moaning to get out of the system yet...tomorrow we can unite

I think the Lions squad is a mirror of the fact we are weak in the centres and with limited options at number 8, though ironically very competitive at flanker.  Most of the flankers are more open-side players with lock hybrids fulfilling the blindside role in the main.

Good back three options (I hope LRZ plays) and solid rather than spectacular elsewhere.

Weakest Centres selection ever ?

If Henshaw gets injured there are no class centres, in the squad, and there is no credible 13.

Aki and Harris are nowhere near good enough.

Aki has me scratching my head more than Harris.
Aki and Harris for the midweek games, Farrell and Henshaw for the test side perhaps. However, as you said, should Henshaw pick up an injury it's Harris who is not the man for a Lions test side.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:OK, I have just read it closer, and still stand by what I have said.

Great what did you think of his pick at 12? or his reasoning of 'The midfield is where I've been thrown off a little. Sexton was my Test out-half - but I think he is one of the few players who could be brought in late and still make the Test 23. I've gone with Russell instead as I think a Biggar-Farrell 10-12 axis would just be too stale.'

Sorry, I missed that one.

I wouldn't start with Farrell personally, he isn't as good as Henshaw or Aki, but Gatland will probably start him, and we will spend the whole tour moaning about his defence and lack of ability to release the backs.

But if he is picked, I hope he plays a stormer.

He is nowhere near as good as Henshaw, by the same token much better than Aki.

I think he will start at 12 for the simple reason Henshaw has to start at 13.
I'll go further Henshaw is the most valuable player in the squad because of the (lack of) alternatives in his position.

Given the centres picked I see no point picking Russell - play 10 man rugby and pick Biggar

I think Davies may surprise this time round at 9. He's really good at the sudden break and is a quick little pain in the rear whenever he's played against England. I think he's the pick of the 9s on tour and I wouldn't be surprised to see him start at 9 in the tests if he comes through uninjured.

He's also a niggly S.O.B and I reckon he'll surprise a few on this tour.

I think there may be a few surprise selections for the tests.

Mr Bounce wrote:I think Davies may surprise this time round at 9. He's really good at the sudden break and is a quick little pain in the rear whenever he's played against England. I think he's the pick of the 9s on tour and I wouldn't be surprised to see him start at 9 in the tests if he comes through uninjured.

He's also a niggly S.O.B and I reckon he'll surprise a few on this tour.

I think there may be a few surprise selections for the tests.

My bet for a surprise selection will be LCD starting.

Lot of people surprised by Ryan being out.

As an Irish supporter I'm not - Henderson and Beirne have both outperformed him in the 6N.
I did think their was an outside chance all three would go.
That would have been instead of Hill, AWJ was always (rightly) going to go

Sorry Geoff I keep seeing this myth being peddled by supporters and journalists about Ryan having had a poor 6N. He did in the sense he was injured for most of it - outside of the Italy game (which doesn't really count) he only featured against Scotland and for 15 minutes against Wales. In that game at Murrayfield he (along with Henderson and Beirne) utterly destroyed the Scottish lineout which was the winning of the game for Ireland that day.

Maybe Leinster's defeat against La Rochelle counted against him - collectively the Leinster pack were 2nd best but I didn't notice Ryan having a particularly poor game. And besides how much criticism can you level at him for losing a semi-final when no other sides from B&I made it that far - in particular Exeter who were well beaten at Sandy Park.

If it's concern over a couple of recent concussions he's had, that's fair enough but otherwise he should be touring and would have been in contention to start.

Pete330v2 wrote:Weakest Centres selection ever ?

If Henshaw gets injured there are no class centres, in the squad, and there is no credible 13.

Aki and Harris are nowhere near good enough.

Aki has me scratching my head more than Harris.
Aki and Harris for the midweek games, Farrell and Henshaw for the test side perhaps. However, as you said, should Henshaw pick up an injury it's Harris who is not the man for a Lions test side.

If Tuilagi gets fit with Sale I could see him being an injury replacement that challenges for the test side.

Really surprised that Ringrose has been left out given the weak options in the midfield.

Henshaw is probably the Lions MVP due to lack of other options in his position though. Luckily he is an absolutely class player at 12 or 13 and has had a stellar season. That does help ease the worries there to some extent. A lot of pressure on Henshaw though.

Given the weak midfield I'd have preferred a 13 that can cover the back three in Huw Jones as a utility back rather than a back three player that covers centre in Daly. I actually think Daly's best position could be 13 still but it's a mute point unless he's actually played there consistently ever again.

It's a shame Jonathan Joseph has been cast out the England set-up. I still think he's a considerably better international centre than Henry Slade.

2021 Lions squad by club representation

Saracens  Daly, George, Itoje, Vunipola, Farrell
Exeter Hogg, Simmonds, Cowan-Dickie, Hill
Northampton Lawes, Biggar
Gloucester  Rees-Zammit, Harris
Bath  Watson, Faletau
Sale Curry

Racing 92 Russell

Edinburgh Van Der Merwe, Watson, Sutherland
Glasgow Price, Fagerson

Leinster Porter, Henshaw, Furlong, Conan
Munster Murray, Beirne
Ulster Henderson
Connacht Aki

Scarlets Williams, Davies, Owens, Jones
Ospreys Jones, Tipuric
Blues Adams

bsando wrote:2021 Lions squad by club representation

Saracens  Daly, George, Itoje, Vunipola, Farrell
Exeter Hogg, Simmonds, Cowan-Dickie, Hill
Northampton Lawes, Biggar
Gloucester  Rees-Zammit, Harris
Bath  Watson, Faletau
Sale Curry

Racing 92 Russell

Edinburgh Van Der Merwe, Watson, Sutherland
Glasgow Price, Fagerson

Leinster Porter, Henshaw, Furlong, Conan
Munster Murray, Beirne
Ulster Henderson
Connacht Aki

Scarlets Williams, Davies, Owens, Jones
Ospreys Jones, Tipuric
Blues Adams

First time since the 1968 tour to SA that a Leicester player hasn't made the squad.

As a part time Edinburgh fan these days due to living up here I'm delighted for their trio though. The Mish in particular.

Not really sure what to make of the selections. Just looking at the England contingent, is Hill really playing at a Lions level? I would not have thought he was in contention for a spot. Vunipola, George, or Daly? Lawes is recovering from injury. If fit (always a big if for anyone coming back), I could maybe see him there. But if not playing that well, it is something different and would exclude a player, no?

We have great options on the wing and at fullback. Not sure about the centres, but I am guessing Aki and Henshaw would start outside of Davies/Murray and Biggar?

The forwards seems more difficult to pick, but I think Simmonds has the look of the type of player who can come off the bench and offer something at every back row position, if needed. And I hope he gets a chance to show what he can do. I think we have good choices across the pack though I guess the starting second row would be Itoje with AWJ.

lostinwales wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:I think Davies may surprise this time round at 9. He's really good at the sudden break and is a quick little pain in the rear whenever he's played against England. I think he's the pick of the 9s on tour and I wouldn't be surprised to see him start at 9 in the tests if he comes through uninjured.

He's also a niggly S.O.B and I reckon he'll surprise a few on this tour.

I think there may be a few surprise selections for the tests.

My bet for a surprise selection will be LCD starting.

Ahh. Our other starting centre sorted.

Don't forget Dalys best position is Actually probably 13...so he can cover...or maybe even force his way in there. He's also got a monster boot and can play wing very well.....full back not so.

king_carlos wrote:

bsando wrote:2021 Lions squad by club representation

Saracens  Daly, George, Itoje, Vunipola, Farrell
Exeter Hogg, Simmonds, Cowan-Dickie, Hill
Northampton Lawes, Biggar
Gloucester  Rees-Zammit, Harris
Bath  Watson, Faletau
Sale Curry

Racing 92 Russell

Edinburgh Van Der Merwe, Watson, Sutherland
Glasgow Price, Fagerson

Leinster Porter, Henshaw, Furlong, Conan
Munster Murray, Beirne
Ulster Henderson
Connacht Aki

Scarlets Williams, Davies, Owens, Jones
Ospreys Jones, Tipuric
Blues Adams

First time since the 1968 tour to SA that a Leicester player hasn't made the squad.

As a part time Edinburgh fan these days due to living up here I'm delighted for their trio though. The Mish in particular.

Yeah despite this season (which has been a write off) Cockerill has made a big impact at Edinburgh that has no doubt helped the club get those extra men in the Lions squad today. Good to beat Glasgow on representation as well  

I'm particularly pleased for Connacht as well, they've had limited Lions in years gone by and getting their star player in the squad is great to see. He's an influential player who I think will flourish in a Lions environment. Same goes with Henderson who I think pipped Ryan and Gray with his performances in the 6N to be selected. He's been tremendous for ulster as us Edinburgh fans know only too well.