How good would is/was Vitali Klitschko?

I wrote about this on the old 606, I think a prime Vitali would be able to mix it with the very best heavyweights. Has has awesome punching power and durability add a fantastic chin to that (only ever been knocked out by a kick) and you have someone who is very hard to beat. He was well ahead of Lewis when they fought Lewis did not have any answers and got lucky with the cut, I doubt Lewis would of lasted much longer.

If he fought the likes of Tyson, even in his prime I think he would of been able to cope with Tyson's power and KO'ed him in the latter rounds after wearing him down.

Even think he would of had the best chance to beat Ali out of all other great heavyweights.

Ps he is one hell of a fighter and not just a boxer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlFhLg4l0hY

A very, very good Heavyweight who would have competed well in any era, for my money.

I stated not long ago that when it comes to Heavyweights who have made the most out of what (relatively) little they have and maximized every last little bit of their potential, Vitali can be rivalled only by Rocky Marciano.

That being said, I can't find a place for Vitali amongst the truly 'great' Heavyweights. Even allowing for the fact that he's presided over a truly shocking Heavyweight division over the last decade or so, I simply don't buy in to this idea that he'd beat all but one or two of the past Heavyweight greats, either. I think, given his ability to fight to his strengths (height and reach, primarily) he's an absolute nightmare for the smaller Heavyweights such as Marciano, Tyson and Holyfield, but his slowness of foot, non-descript work rate (though in fairness, it hasn't had to be Armstrong-esque in order to dominate such a poor division) and limited skill set (a department in which Wladimir trumps him on his day) mean that I'd have to make him the significant underdog against Ali, Louis, Holmes, Foreman, Lewis and Liston, and after some deliberation I might chuck Dempsey and / or Johnson in to that list, too.

One thing I have to add, too, is that if there was one fighter who'd have been lucky to survive the next couple of rounds in the Lewis fight, it was Vitali, and not Lennox. The doctor saved Vitali's career that night, and people seem totally ignorant of the fact that the Ukranian, despite being brilliant in the first four rounds, spent much of the next two hanging on for dear life. Certain fights get distorted and the truth twisted as years go on, and I feel that Lewis-Klitschko is becoming one of them.

Many mention Vitali's fight against Lewis and yes he was up on points but when you say Lewis wouldn't have lasted much longer, it was in fact Vitali who before the fight ended looked like he wouldn't last much longer and i'm not talking about the cuts.

Also you are talking about an out of shape Lewis who was what, 37-38 and definitely not, wait for it 'prime', Vitali simply made the quicker start, which for a younger, fresher and at that moment in time hungrier fighter you would expect as such.

I personally think Lewis would have stopped Vitali had it continued but we'll never know.

In their respective peaks I would think if they fought 10 times, Lewis would win 8 of them.

This takes nothing away from Vitali who as you said is extremely durable with a granite chin and good power and I don't think there is a heavyweight in history who could easily stop him and all would have a very hard fight with him.

Hard to gauge him as he we haven't got a stick to measure him against top 20 heavies due to the dearth of talent in the HW division.

Only one is naturally Lewis. And bearing in mind an old, overweight, underprepared and poorly motivated version of Lewis gave him hell would lead me to not placing in my top 20 heavies of all time.

Still a very very good fighter though, somewhere in the 21-25 atg HW range for me personally. Again, has lots of averageness on his CV which makes it hard to gauge barring the aforementioned Lewis fight.

Raymond wrote: Has has awesome punching power and durability add a fantastic chin to that (only ever been knocked out by a kick)

That kick was from Britain's own Pele Reid

i think vitali is a good heavyweigh champ, in the top 15. think he is sometimes underrated, just due to the fact that he is in a weak division and there isn't much out there to prove himself against. would like to see him fight povetkin, perez, rematch solis and fight haye. also like to see him fight price or valuev (so he doesnt have the ridiculos height advantage). dont think any other fights out there would be remotely competetive. i think adamek is a good boxer but will probably be a little to small for vitali.

in my eyes a cut from a punch that stops a fight is the same a KO, theres not really any doubt for me that lewis would have won, he was taking over the fight and landing heavy shots. i have to say though i honestly think no other heavyweight of the day would still be standing after that uppercut that lewis landed.

Very good Heavyweight boxer but his career has been hurt by the time away and while he has done very well in the comeback, he is not the fighter of old.

He'd be tough opposition for any Heavyweight.

A slug that couldn't beat an aging Lewis (according to the cards!!)..and has fought stiff after stiff thereafter..

"A very goo heavy who could compete in any era"....

60s/70s I doubt it very much..

I think both Klitschko's are genuine quality, they have beaten everybody in the heavyweight div year after year of contenders, always fought there mandatory's, and are 2 of the most underrated boxers of the past 10 years imo. How can you clean up the titles, apart from what Haye holds and supposedly duck everyone? i also get there boring, they are effective, and get the job done. Also i hear the tosh Wlad has no heart, etc he aint done bad coming back from his defeats the way he has then, he's had a few fights as well with solid fighters in Ibragimov, and Chagaev who were unbeaten and just couldn't live with him. Vitali was also beating and outboxing Lewis imo.

A slug that couldn't beat an aging Lewis (according to the cards!!)..and has fought stiff after stiff thereafter..
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they fight who's in front of them and are very effective, they could also hold there own in ANY generation of heavyweights imo, they have all the attributes, Vitali especially could his power, ability to adapt and deal with fighters.

Think that Vitali would very much be on the same level as George Chuvalo were he around in the 60/70's, sounds a bit harsh on him but don't see what he has in his armoury to trouble the likes of Ali, Liston, Foreman, Frazier, Norton or some of the others like Terrell, Young, Lyle etc.

i think vitali could but wlad couldn't. vitali is a lot more of a natural fighter that wlad, whos a pure technician with a massive frame and long jab. if vitali gets hit he gets mad, and comes back stronger. wlad just closes up even tighter and goes exclusivly to the jab. vitali when he has a man hurt seems to enjoy hunting them down and finishng the job. i think if the lewis/vitali fight would have carried on it had the makings to one of the most exciting heavyweight fights ever. vitali's iron chin, KO power and physical advantages (over most h/w's) coupled with his attitude would seem him through most boxign era's, probably gaining a world title in any era (and definetly since since the 80s)

Vitali would be a hard nights work for any hw simply due to his size, strength, durability and chin. He's a decent puncher but not an amazing boxer, very limited skillset and there are plenty of heavies that would simply outclass him, his own brother being one of them for a start. Doesnt get near my top 20.

RE: Vitali v Lewis, vitali was winning the fight 4-2 on rounds at the time of the stoppage, he started well but had tailed off, Lewis was tagging him with clean, hard shots on an increasingly frequent basis - the uppercut in the 6th would felled most heavies and is a testament to vitalis chin - but if the fight had gone on much longer I think vitali wouldve been stopped. Not even a guy as durable as him can eat clean power shots from someone of Lennox punching power all night and get away with it. The fight was slipping away from him at the time of the stoppage, and bearing in mind vitali had plastic surgery and over 50 stitches I think it's fair to say Lewis couldve ended his career had it not been halted when it was.

Vitali would be a hard nights work for any hw simply due to his size, strength, durability and chin. He's a decent puncher but not an amazing boxer, very limited skillset and there are plenty of heavies that would simply outclass him, his own brother being one of them for a start. Doesnt get near my top 20.
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he isn't the best technically but is very, very spiteful with the power punches he throws, even the basic 1-2 he throws would be a huge problem for any past heavyweight, i feel for the heavyweights, all you get is the past, the past. And? were in 2011, how come Sugar Ray Robinson doesnt have such an impact on todays middles? its laughable. I couldn't give a dam about Tyson who got sparked off Douglas and Ali, Holyfield etc. I don't mind Haye v Wlad thankyou very much!

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Think that Vitali would very much be on the same level as George Chuvalo were he around in the 60/70's, sounds a bit harsh on him but don't see what he has in his armoury to trouble the likes of Ali, Liston, Foreman, Frazier, Norton or some of the others like Terrell, Young, Lyle etc.

He would walk through Norton to be honest...I can see him beating Liston in a war, the likes of Young and Lyle would cause Vitali a lot of problems but you can still make a case for him, beats Terrell for me.

Ali and Foreman forget it. Ali rips him to pieces too fast and accurate can see him getting stopped on cuts. Foreman knocks Vitali out...Joe Frazier is intriguing would love to see how Vitali deals with him on the inside.

His paper record probably isnt enough to see him placed highly overll in the sport but he is very much a heavyweight that I think scores highly in the head to head department given the changes in the heavyweight era.

He existed in the "biggest" heavyweight era to date in terms of the size of the average heavyweight and bar Lewis was comfortable in nearly all his fights - rarely losing rounds at all.

I cant see many 175-200 lb guys living with him so there arent actually a great many heavies I would make favourite over him. Even traditional big heavies that we think of like Foreman or Holmes would be giving away close to 30lbs during their peaks.

PBF, that's one of the most analytical and thoughtful posts I've ever seen from you. I certainly agree that he would walk through Norton - never been 100% sold on Ken, mind you. Only place I disagree fundamentally is with Liston - think that a switched-on Sonny would demolish him, to be truthful. A stopped while covering up, still on his feet, but not firing back number, if you follow me. With Frazier, Vitali needs to get rid of him early, or he's in for a horrible evening. Vitali doesn't hit as hard as Foreman, and he won't enjoy the constant, bobbing pressure in the later rounds. If Vitali can't stop Joe getting to the inside, he's dead.

he's simply tough because of the size difference and his chin, in boxing ability he miles behind most of the top ten heavys. he might do well against some of the old timers simply because of the size difference. but he has the unfair advantage of modern diet, training and the natural progression of humans getting taller. without putting in the real small heavys (dempsey, tyson, marciano) this is how i see how he would do against some of the greatest who werent giving away as much physical advatages

ali- gets totally out boxed, his slow foot work finds him chasing ali all night and losing by a wide decsion. in ten fights not sure i see vitali winning one

foreman- his lack of footwork and movement would get found out, to easy to hit and likes getting drawn into wars to much and would get stopped by george. in ten fights i could see him knocking out foreman maybe a couple of times as he does have alot of power him self, but would give george at least 8 wins.

holmes- jab jab jab jab jab win for holmes, holmes shows vitali what a jab is

lewis- a slightly over the hill lewis showed that he could beat him then a prime lewis with more time to prepar beats him easier. give vitali a couple of ko wins as lewis could get caught cold by big hitting heavys. but will usually get out boxed by lewis.

i would still have some of the smaller heavys beating him, it gets alot closer simply because the size diffrenece. the one fighter i think he matches well against is tyson

dream fights with vital (all in prime).....

wlad vs vitali
tyson vs vitali
ali vs vitali
bowe vs vitali
ike vs vitali
liston vs vitali

You are never going to get guys the size of Klitschko that can move or have speed like Ali. But the advantages their size holds is significant in other ways.

Vitali has the luxury of being able to dominate and hold the ring and walk his opponent down in many cases. His size makes bullying him possible to only the biggest heavyweights. It makes it so tough to win rounds if you are giving away such large physical advantages.

To look at in relation to other divisions:

If you are a heavyweight that weighs 220lbs chances are you are giving away about 30lbs to Vitali. Thats about 15% of you bodyweight. Chances are you are giving away alot of height and reach also. Because heavyweight has no limits this is just the way it goes. Thats just where the line in the sand is drawn at present.

But if you were to apply the same percentages elsewhere:

Pacquaio weighs about 145 lbs these days on fight night. 15% of his bodyweight is around 20lbs. At those ratios hes facing Carl Froch as an equivalent.

Obviously Pacquiao is faster, better accuracy, better movement, more skilled etc while Froch is slow and cumbersome in comparison, easy to hit, far less movement. However hes durable, powerful and his size would give him so many advantages.

Its not a direct equivalent because power tends to carry alot better higher up but it highlights what you are giving away in terms of the percentage of your own size, even if you are a faster and more skillfull fighter. The dynamics of the fight change. Aggressive, bullying fighters like Dempsey or Marciano could easily find themselves inneffective and manhandled against Vitali.

manos de piedra wrote:Aggressive, bullying fighters like Dempsey or Marciano could easily find themselves inneffective and manhandled against Vitali.

Maybe, maybe not.

Jess Willard was just as big as Vitali and had exactly the same style. Willard was tough as teak, carried a monstrous right hand and had unquenchable stamina. Granted, his lack of amateur pedigree meant that he wasn't so accurate a puncher as Vitali, but as a trade off he probably had greater single shot power.

Dempsey had just the tools to sort Willard out, and I suspect that Marciano, Frazier and Tyson would have, also.

HumanWindmill wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:Aggressive, bullying fighters like Dempsey or Marciano could easily find themselves inneffective and manhandled against Vitali.

Maybe, maybe not.

Jess Willard was just as big as Vitali and had exactly the same style. Willard was tough as teak, carried a monstrous right hand and had unquenchable stamina. Granted, his lack of amateur pedigree meant that he wasn't so accurate a puncher as Vitali, but as a trade off he probably had greater single shot power.

Dempsey had just the tools to sort Willard out, and I suspect that Marciano, Frazier and Tyson would have, also.

Depends on whether or not you rate Willard as the same class as Vitali. I dont really.

i would rank vitali as better than willard, be intresting to see how the mandatory 8 count would have affected dempsey career. willards barely off on his feet before jack smashing him. although the fight in modern day ring would have been stopped alot earlier anyway

Got to agree with most of the above, while vitali is the standout heavy of the current crop the Lewis fight has been rewrote too many times. Lewis took him as a change of oponent on very late notice and had become complacent and fat, and even with all of that had turned the tide coming into the 5th round.
The Byrd fight was unforgivable for what we come to expect from our heavyweight champs, Reference Willard, Marciano, Ali, Frazer as examples of fighting through the unnatural pain barrier.

All in all, a mobile heavy with a good chin gives him problems for me, you could add a list of late 80's fringe heavys to the burgeoning list above, a prime Witherspoon, possibly tubbs and pinkelton thomas too.

I don't mean to do him a total deservice, but I don't think you can hold him as high as an all time great.

Good, rugged fighter who's probably better than his record suggests.

Unfortunate to have come at a time when the division lacked any talent/interest stateside.

The Lewis fight is quite interesting. I feel that some fans perhaps give him too much credit for what is, a losing performance. On the other hand, some fans perhaps are a bit too critical of the him getting beat by a Top 10 HW.

After all, Lewis may have been in poor condition, but was still the overwhelming favourite going into the bout. Not to mention that its rare that two fighters meet one another when both are at their physical prime.

Personally, I don't really like comparing athletes from different era's. I find it a fairly pointless affair.
Would Spain have won the World Cup had they competed in 1970 against Pele's Brazil? Would Nadal be Wimbledon champion if a prime Sampras or Becker were still around? Would Vitali Klitschko be succesful in another decade?
Possibly not....but it means little in the grand scheme of things. Since time travel is not yet possibly, you can only beat that what is currently around you.

Personally, I think Vitali brings enough to the table to be a tough night for anyone.

A Lewis re-match, Ibeabuchi and Jones Jr would have been three top fights that could have given him more exposure and merit.

jimdig wrote:Got to agree with most of the above, while vitali is the standout heavy of the current crop the Lewis fight has been rewrote too many times. Lewis took him as a change of oponent on very late notice and had become complacent and fat, and even with all of that had turned the tide coming into the 5th round.
The Byrd fight was unforgivable for what we come to expect from our heavyweight champs, Reference Willard, Marciano, Ali, Frazer as examples of fighting through the unnatural pain barrier.

All in all, a mobile heavy with a good chin gives him problems for me, you could add a list of late 80's fringe heavys burgeoning list above, a prime Witherspoon, possibly tubbs and thomas too.

I don't mean to do him a total deservice, but I don't think you can hold him as high as an all time great.

Think you are being harsh. Especially in light of his performance against Lewis where he clearly wanted to continue despite his face being shredded.

The injury he had against Byrd was a career threatning one where you cant move your arm at all. If left unchecked it could have ended his career, not to mention resulted in taking an unanswered beating for the final few rounds. Think the bar is being set a little too highly if we are expecting fighters to continue with broken bones, dislocated joints and torn muslces etc.

Willard has quit on his stool before against a nobody and Ali wanted to quit against Liston when his eyes were burning only for his corner to tell him to hang in there. I dont hold it against them all things considered.

Too much emphasise is placed on Vitalis size, he may be too much for the smaller heavyweights although I still see Dempsey getting the better of him but against the more traditional heavyweights like Frazier, Ali, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Louis amongst many others then his size isn't going to be that important. Just don't see what he brings to the table to beat such men all of whom have the advantage in speed, ability and punching power, he just doesn't have the ability to make his size count and like they say a great little un beats a good big un.

88Chris05 wrote:A very, very good Heavyweight who would have competed well in any era, for my money.

I stated not long ago that when it comes to Heavyweights who have made the most out of what (relatively) little they have and maximized every last little bit of their potential, Vitali can be rivalled only by Rocky Marciano.

That being said, I can't find a place for Vitali amongst the truly 'great' Heavyweights. Even allowing for the fact that he's presided over a truly shocking Heavyweight division over the last decade or so, I simply don't buy in to this idea that he'd beat all but one or two of the past Heavyweight greats, either. I think, given his ability to fight to his strengths (height and reach, primarily) he's an absolute nightmare for the smaller Heavyweights such as Marciano, Tyson and Holyfield, but his slowness of foot, non-descript work rate (though in fairness, it hasn't had to be Armstrong-esque in order to dominate such a poor division) and limited skill set (a department in which Wladimir trumps him on his day) mean that I'd have to make him the significant underdog against Ali, Louis, Holmes, Foreman, Lewis and Liston, and after some deliberation I might chuck Dempsey and / or Johnson in to that list, too.

One thing I have to add, too, is that if there was one fighter who'd have been lucky to survive the next couple of rounds in the Lewis fight, it was Vitali, and not Lennox. The doctor saved Vitali's career that night, and people seem totally ignorant of the fact that the Ukranian, despite being brilliant in the first four rounds, spent much of the next two hanging on for dear life. Certain fights get distorted and the truth twisted as years go on, and I feel that Lewis-Klitschko is becoming one of them.

I don't think that his height or reach make him a nightmare for either Tyson or Holyfield if judged at their pomp- all most all their opponents were taller and had longer reaches, and gvien his flat footedness, and lack of speed for me this plays out like Tyson v Bruno. In fact, apart form skin colour I think the Bruno and the klits are pretty much cut from the cloth. Bruno always looked great except when mixing with the top figures of the division. It was only when put in with the likes of Tyson that his short comings were exposed, and let's face lewis aside, Vitali has faced precious little quality

horizontalhero wrote:I don't think that his height or reach make him a nightmare for either Tyson or Holyfield if judged at their pomp- all most all their opponents were taller and had longer reaches, and gvien his flat footedness, and lack of speed for me this plays out like Tyson v Bruno. In fact, apart form skin colour I think the Bruno and the klits are pretty much cut from the cloth. Bruno always looked great except when mixing with the top figures of the division. It was only when put in with the likes of Tyson that his short comings were exposed, and let's face lewis aside, Vitali has faced precious little quality

I think you're doing Vitali a massive, massive disservice by comparing him to Bruno in anything more than a passing thought, to be honest. They may have built their games around a ramrod right jab, but for me that's where the comparisons end. Vitali's dominance against many a highly ranked contender lead me to doubt very much that he'd have been given the same troubles against the likes of Jumbo Cummings, Anders Eklund and the Bonecrusher which Bruno encountered. Many (including me) aren't all that impressed by the names of Peter, Hide, Sanders and Arreola on Vitali's CV, but even they represent a leap in quality from the James', the Gross' and the Ribalta's of this world, as well as the washed up Bugner's and Coetzee's, for that matter.

As I said, I don't see Vitali beating many (if any at all) of the previous great Heavyweights - though I'd make him a very live underdog against two or three of them. But my point is that he's a very, very good fighter for any era, capable of at the very least competing with the top men of any generation you like. Don't think the same could ever be said for Bruno.

88Chris05 wrote:

horizontalhero wrote:I don't think that his height or reach make him a nightmare for either Tyson or Holyfield if judged at their pomp- all most all their opponents were taller and had longer reaches, and gvien his flat footedness, and lack of speed for me this plays out like Tyson v Bruno. In fact, apart form skin colour I think the Bruno and the klits are pretty much cut from the cloth. Bruno always looked great except when mixing with the top figures of the division. It was only when put in with the likes of Tyson that his short comings were exposed, and let's face lewis aside, Vitali has faced precious little quality

I think you're doing Vitali a massive, massive disservice by comparing him to Bruno in anything more than a passing thought, to be honest. They may have built their games around a ramrod right jab, but for me that's where the comparisons end. Vitali's dominance against many a highly ranked contender lead me to doubt very much that he'd have been given the same troubles against the likes of Jumbo Cummings, Anders Eklund and the Bonecrusher which Bruno encountered. Many (including me) aren't all that impressed by the names of Peter, Hide, Sanders and Arreola on Vitali's CV, but even they represent a leap in quality from the James', the Gross' and the Ribalta's of this world, as well as the washed up Bugner's and Coetzee's, for that matter.

As I said, I don't see Vitali beating many (if any at all) of the previous great Heavyweights - though I'd make him a very live underdog against two or three of them. But my point is that he's a very, very good fighter for any era, capable of at the very least competing with the top men of any generation you like. Don't think the same could ever be said for Bruno.

I assume that you think I am over rating frank rather than under rating Vitali? but at least we have evidence of what Bruno was capable of against some pretty good oppostion- Before being stopped on his feet Frank was ahead against Witherspoon, a shut against Smith, rocked Tyson, out boxed Lewis, and I reckon Frank could compete as well as Vitali could against the top men ie limited success, then lose. Vitali's only outting into top class saw him stopped after outboxing Lewis-same as frank funnily enough. Sorry but see no evidence of him being any more a very live underdog any more than Frank would- The fight against Briggs showed the same flaws that Frank would have displayed- a Dempsey, Frazier, Tyson, Marcino would have torn a Briggs like that apart instead Vitali , just like Frank would have, pawed him with his j jab, clobbered him with the right, but never stepped it up for long enough , or with enough ferocity to get him out of there.