South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
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South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
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SOUTH AFRICA v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS
Saturday 24 July
KO: 18:00 SAST / 17:00 UK / 20:00 Dubai
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Cape Town Stadium (Newlands), Cape Town
Sky Sports Main Event
Referee: Nic Berry (Australia)
Assistant Referees: Ben O’Keeffe, Mathieu Raynal
TMO: Marius Bloody Jonker of all people
TEAMS:
SOUTH AFRICA:
15 – Willie le Roux (Toyota Verblitz) – 62 caps, 60 pts (12t)
14 – Cheslin Kolbe (Toulouse) – 14 caps, 40 pts (8t)
13 – Lukhanyo Am (Cell C Sharks) – 15 caps, 15 pts (3t)
12 – Damian de Allende (Munster) – 47 caps, 30 pts (6t)
11 – Makazole Mapimpi (Cell C Sharks) – 14 caps, 70 pts (14t)
10 – Handré Pollard (vice-captain – Montpellier) – 49 caps, 465pts (6t, 78c, 89p, 4d)
09 – Faf de Klerk (Sale Sharks) – 30 caps, 20 pts (4t)
08 – Kwagga Smith (Yamaha Júbilo) – 7 caps, 5 pts (1t)
07 – Pieter-Steph du Toit (DHL Stormers) – 56 caps, 25 pts (5t)
06 – Siya Kolisi (captain – Cell C Sharks) – 51 caps, 30 pts (6t)
05 – Franco Mostert (Honda Heat) – 40 caps, 5pts (1t)
04 – Eben Etzebeth (Toulon) – 86 caps, 15 pts (3t)
03 – Trevor Nyakane (Vodacom Bulls) – 43 caps, 5 pts (1t)
02 – Bongi Mbonambi (DHL Stormers) – 37 caps, 40 pts (8t)
01 – Ox Nché (Cell C Sharks) – 2 caps, 0 pts
16 – Malcolm Marx (Kubota Spears) – 34 caps, 30 pts (6t)
17 – Steven Kitshoff (DHL Stormers) – 48 caps, 5pts (1t)
18 – Frans Malherbe (DHL Stormers) – 39 caps, 5pts (1t)
19 – Lood de Jager (Sale Sharks) – 45 caps, 25 pts (5t)
20 – Rynhardt Elstadt (Toulouse) – 2 caps, 0 pts
21 – Herschel Jantjies (DHL Stormers) – 11 caps, 25 pts (5t)
22 – Elton Jantjies (Pau) – 38 caps, 283 pts (2t, 63c, 49p)
23 – Damian Willemse (DHL Stormers) – 7 caps, 5pts (1t)
BRITISH & IRISH LIONS:
15. Stuart Hogg (Exeter, Scotland) #783
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, England) #816
13. Elliot Daly (Saracens, England) #822
12. Robbie Henshaw (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #824
11. Duhan van der Merwe (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #841
10. Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints, Wales) #821
09. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors, Scotland) #843
01. Rory Sutherland (Worcester, Scotland) #840
02. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter, England) #851
03. Tadhg Furlong (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #818
04. Maro Itoje (Saracens, England) #825
05. Alun Wyn Jones (C) (Ospreys, Wales) #761
06. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, England) #826
07. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, England) #853
08. Jack Conan (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #839
16. Ken Owens (Scarlets, Wales) #829
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, England) #787
18. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, England) #814
19. Tadhg Beirne (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #838
20. Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby, Scotland) #847
21. Conor Murray (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #790
22. Owen Farrell (Saracens, England) #780
23. Liam Williams (Scarlets, Wales) #833
PREVIEW:
Last edited by George Carlin on Sat 24 Jul 2021, 4:25 pm; edited 6 times in total
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
Cyril wrote:It would be better if you could see who dislikes posts (same as you can with likes) but does it really matter?
Yep, then we could see how many ID's that certain someone has. They're still here pretending to be Wenglish.
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
The Oracle wrote:Good team, some probably marginal calls, but there or thereabouts overall for me. I wish them all the best.
It’s pretty much the team I would have picked apart from Adams over Watson and I would have gone Hamish Watson over Curry.
Adams to miss out entirely is incredibly harsh going on your form. Has Watson really shown more? Perhaps he’ll get his chance in another test.
Anyway, onwards and hopefully a team to really test the Boks.
Edit: sorry just noticed Lawes at 6. Would have gone for Beirne. Not sure laws brings enough at 6 or at lock. He therefore becomes more of a utility player for me and, on form, I would have gone for Beirne as Lawes I don’t think had shown enough so far on tour.
That's exactly what I would have changed.
I think Lawes has the skill set to cover Lock/6 and Curry has the talent to cover across the BR then I would have had them on the bench. I'm assuming Farrell is there to cover 10/12 and for his dead ball kicking, he won't let us down if there is a pen or conversion to be slotted over on the 80 min to win the match
Some unlucky players in George, Hendo, Harris and Adams but still a decent 23
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
mikey_dragon wrote:Did anyone actually expect LCD to start? I thought it would be Owens with George on the bench. All three are good enough though.
His performance in the last game must have pushed him ahead. All 3 have been excellent this tour - George will be gutted.
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
mikey_dragon wrote:Did anyone actually expect LCD to start? I thought it would be Owens with George on the bench. All three are good enough though.
Yes - I thought he was outstanding in the warmups. Like price arrived on tour looking like bench / midweek fodder but played his way into the test side
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
LordDowlais wrote:I was hoping to see Adam Beard he certainly has shown up better than Tadhg Beirne, but I suppose he gets the nod for his versatility.
When I saw Henderson picked ahead of Beard in the leaked team last night I was a bit bemused by that.
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Oakdene wrote:LordDowlais wrote:I was hoping to see Adam Beard he certainly has shown up better than Tadhg Beirne, but I suppose he gets the nod for his versatility.
When I saw Henderson picked ahead of Beard in the leaked team last night I was a bit bemused by that.
Feelings now that 2 guys yet to play in the second row on this tour now seem lock cover?
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
I probably would have liked a bit more bulk off the bench, especially as SA have their better scrummagers coming on (as Old Man says)
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
Oakdene wrote:LordDowlais wrote:I was hoping to see Adam Beard he certainly has shown up better than Tadhg Beirne, but I suppose he gets the nod for his versatility.
When I saw Henderson picked ahead of Beard in the leaked team last night I was a bit bemused by that.
Beard has been outstanding, in fact he's been our best lock by far. I would have picked him to start
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
But I accept we are lacking Real Captain material on the field as Murray showed vs SA'A.
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
Me? I think A Watson is lucky to get the nod over Adams and Curry over the Mish - but lets face it they are hardly weak guys who got in the team and none will let us down
MY real question mark is Farrell. Id have had smith on the bench to break the game up in the last 20. But Farrell is there i assume for that 82nd minute kick to win the game and / or to play out if we are leading
Last edited by TJ on Wed 21 Jul 2021, 11:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
TightHEAD wrote:Beard should be playing instead of AWJ.
But I accept we are lacking Real Captain material on the field as Murray showed vs SA'A.
Hogg? too far from the action? He is a decent captain nowadays
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
I do worry for Itoje and Curry in that line up.
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
15. Stuart Hogg (Exeter, Scotland) #783
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, England) #816
13. Elliot Daly (Saracens, England) #822
12. Robbie Henshaw (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #824
11. Duhan van der Merwe (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #841
10. Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints, Wales) #821
9. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors, Scotland) #843
1. Wyn Jones (Scarlets, Wales) #842
2. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter, England) #851
3. Tadhg Furlong (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #818
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, England) #825
5. Alun Wyn Jones (C) (Ospreys, Wales) #761
6. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, England) #826
7. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, England) #853
8. Jack Conan (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #839
Replacements:
16. Ken Owens (Scarlets, Wales) #829
17. Rory Sutherland (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #840
18. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, England) #814
19. Tadhg Beirne (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #838
20. Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby, Scotland) #847
21. Conor Murray (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #790
22. Owen Farrell (Saracens, England) #780
23. Liam Williams (Scarlets, Wales) #833
Wow, just wow.
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Daly at 13 is a big call. Ball in hand he has been the best 13 so far...but a 63% tackle success rate against poorish quality opposition doesn't inspire confidence.
Similarly, Duhan is much better going forward than defending.
It seems the backs have been picked to really take it to the Boks and win the game early, with Murray and No Arms looking to steady the ship later on.
Jones-LCD-Furlong is a decent front row; good scrummagers and aggressive. Sutherland-Sheriff-Sinckler should be able to live with the better Boks front row when the changes are made after the hour. Kudos to Sinckler: being left out originally and now starting a Test. ( Mind, I think Fagerson is a much better scrummager but he is looking like one of those tourists who just don't "blossom". As opposed to someone like Daly, or Chris Harris, who really seem to thrive in the tour atmosphere.)
I guess Lawes is in so that if AWJ's shoulder pops out he can go into second row and Beirne plays 6. Or Curry goes to 6 and Hamish comes on at 7.Either way bringing on Sinckler, Beirne and Hamish will really add pace to the pack. If the positive choice of choosing offensive rather than defensive backs means we are ahead after 60 minutes and the Boks are chasing the game a more mobile pack could have a field day.
However, if we're behind I can't see Murray and Farrell upping the pace
![picard](/users/3014/26/22/82/smiles/429063825.gif)
Should be a fascinating match.
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
TJ wrote:TightHEAD wrote:Beard should be playing instead of AWJ.
But I accept we are lacking Real Captain material on the field as Murray showed vs SA'A.
Hogg? too far from the action? He is a decent captain nowadays
For me he tries to do too much when Captain, let him concentrate on his own game. Also I don't think he talks to Refs as well as AWJ!!!!
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
TightHEAD wrote:I'm sure the lads who are missing out will get the nod in the 3rd test when the Lions are 2-0 up.![]()
Dreams are important, it instills hope
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
The pack is about as strong as we can get it with the players we have, so many players so close together in terms of form.I assume Lawes was ahead of Beirne for his experience and lineout capability (not that Beirne is bad), he is I think also a bit quicker at getting up into the oppositions face and some of us can remember the shuddering tackles he used to put in.
Also with Conan at 8, the additional bulk of Lawes and Curry over Bierne and Watson may have played in their favor.
Disappointed to see both Farrell and Murray on the bench, the form they are in they could be a liability in the closing stages.
Like Williams on the bench, apart from VDM, all the backs are versatile to interchange if necessary.
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
Back line looks surprisingly adventurous - Hogg definitely the strongest open field runner from 15, DvdM there to make holes in the defence, Daly probably the strongest attacking 13 (and defensively weakest) and Aldi Price's strength also being adding pace to the game. Not so enamoured with Murray and Farrell as replacements, but in truth there probably aren't many good options to cover 9-10-12 (but we knew that going in to the tour).
Overall happy with the selections.
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
Beirne and Watson on the bench give a lot of comfort. Lawes will largely be there to soak up the pressure and make 15 hard tackles. He's also a dedicated lock replacement so I hope to hell he doesn't get injured.
Very, very tough on Josh Adams indeed. They must have tossed a coin over him and Duhan.
Is this now a safe space for me to say that I hoped Daly would be 13 rather than any other number? His versatility and field cannon boot took him there instead of Harris. He is part of our best attacking line up, however.
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
Old Man wrote:I think Gatland wants to use Lawes in the same mould as PSDT
Lawes is a good blindside and on his return from injury was back to his absolute best for Saints, he was actually very good at the breakdown. He's possibly the best line out operator the Lions have available and means three genuine options; you'd expect Cowan-Dickie to hit his man every time so with Duhan and Daly you've got two very different options for a set play.
That said I would have selected Watson alongside Curry.
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
Old Man wrote:I think Gatland wants to use Lawes in the same mould as PSDT
I dont get what they see in Lawes myself. He is often described as really physical but I dont see it except when putting in late hits on guys half his size maybe, otherwise the Lions have more physical options they could use at 6.
Sure he is a good player and seens to have a good attitude but not sure what sets him apart from everyone else.
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
George Carlin wrote:I wonder whether Worcester have had 2 British Lions before.![]()
Two Lions who have never played for them
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
Collapse2005 wrote:Old Man wrote:I think Gatland wants to use Lawes in the same mould as PSDT
I dont get what they see in Lawes myself. He is often described as really physical but I dont see it except when putting in late hits on guys half his size maybe, otherwise the Lions have more physical options they could use at 6.
Sure he is a good player and seens to have a good attitude but not sure what sets him apart from everyone else.
What?
The one thing that Lawes undeniably has is physicality, his reputation for hitting half backs late is about 5 years out of date. I'd be interested to know who the more physical options are? Quicker options without doubt but more physical I can't see anyone.
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
Soul Requiem wrote:Collapse2005 wrote:Old Man wrote:I think Gatland wants to use Lawes in the same mould as PSDT
I dont get what they see in Lawes myself. He is often described as really physical but I dont see it except when putting in late hits on guys half his size maybe, otherwise the Lions have more physical options they could use at 6.
Sure he is a good player and seens to have a good attitude but not sure what sets him apart from everyone else.
What?
The one thing that Lawes undeniably has is physicality, his reputation for hitting half backs late is about 5 years out of date. I'd be interested to know who the more physical options are? Quicker options without doubt but more physical I can't see anyone.
Dominant tackles....high work rate....excellent defensive/offensive line-out options....strong carrier in the tight
Apart from that, he doesn't offer much.
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
Soul Requiem wrote:Collapse2005 wrote:Old Man wrote:I think Gatland wants to use Lawes in the same mould as PSDT
I dont get what they see in Lawes myself. He is often described as really physical but I dont see it except when putting in late hits on guys half his size maybe, otherwise the Lions have more physical options they could use at 6.
Sure he is a good player and seens to have a good attitude but not sure what sets him apart from everyone else.
What?
The one thing that Lawes undeniably has is physicality, his reputation for hitting half backs late is about 5 years out of date. I'd be interested to know who the more physical options are? Quicker options without doubt but more physical I can't see anyone.
He hasn’t impressed me with his physicality though, thought he has a good engine and high work rate, excellent line out option at 6, but not in the physicality mode of PSDT for example
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
Old Man wrote:Soul Requiem wrote:Collapse2005 wrote:Old Man wrote:I think Gatland wants to use Lawes in the same mould as PSDT
I dont get what they see in Lawes myself. He is often described as really physical but I dont see it except when putting in late hits on guys half his size maybe, otherwise the Lions have more physical options they could use at 6.
Sure he is a good player and seens to have a good attitude but not sure what sets him apart from everyone else.
What?
The one thing that Lawes undeniably has is physicality, his reputation for hitting half backs late is about 5 years out of date. I'd be interested to know who the more physical options are? Quicker options without doubt but more physical I can't see anyone.
He hasn’t impressed me with his physicality though, thought he has a good engine and high work rate, excellent line out option at 6, but not in the physicality mode of PSDT for example
Yup. He'll hit people hard in tackles but I don't agree he's a good carrier in the tight, if you want that play Watson who is miles better. Strengthens our lineout though.
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
Biggest negative of Lawes and Conan in the back row is that I feel we lose breakdown nous and speed to the ruck. Curry has a lot on his plate, Faletau hasn't been at his best but he's a very effective ruck operator, whereas I see Conan as more of a ball carrier than all around 8.
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Soul Requiem wrote:Collapse2005 wrote:Old Man wrote:I think Gatland wants to use Lawes in the same mould as PSDT
I dont get what they see in Lawes myself. He is often described as really physical but I dont see it except when putting in late hits on guys half his size maybe, otherwise the Lions have more physical options they could use at 6.
Sure he is a good player and seens to have a good attitude but not sure what sets him apart from everyone else.
What?
The one thing that Lawes undeniably has is physicality, his reputation for hitting half backs late is about 5 years out of date. I'd be interested to know who the more physical options are? Quicker options without doubt but more physical I can't see anyone.
Dominant tackles....high work rate....excellent defensive/offensive line-out options....strong carrier in the tight
Apart from that, he doesn't offer much.
Does he still have that thing about getting stripped of the ball once per game?
He's a cracking player who has made himself a very important part of England over the last couple of years even with some very strong competition.
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
No 7&1/2 wrote:Old Man wrote:Soul Requiem wrote:Collapse2005 wrote:Old Man wrote:I think Gatland wants to use Lawes in the same mould as PSDT
I dont get what they see in Lawes myself. He is often described as really physical but I dont see it except when putting in late hits on guys half his size maybe, otherwise the Lions have more physical options they could use at 6.
Sure he is a good player and seens to have a good attitude but not sure what sets him apart from everyone else.
What?
The one thing that Lawes undeniably has is physicality, his reputation for hitting half backs late is about 5 years out of date. I'd be interested to know who the more physical options are? Quicker options without doubt but more physical I can't see anyone.
He hasn’t impressed me with his physicality though, thought he has a good engine and high work rate, excellent line out option at 6, but not in the physicality mode of PSDT for example
Yup. He'll hit people hard in tackles but I don't agree he's a good carrier in the tight, if you want that play Watson who is miles better. Strengthens our lineout though.
Take a look at Lawes stats in recent times, in the absence of a heavyweight carrier in the BV mold, the carrying has been shared and Lawes takes the Lions Share (excuse the pun). He doesn't make the ground BV used to make, but who does. He is comfortably as good as any other lock we have at doing the hard stuff in close and dirty.
His breakdown work has come on leaps and bounds as well, unusual for such a tall man but I have frequently seen him get his hands on the ball and then when the clearout comes he uses that impetus to rip the ball away.
I always used to take umbrage at the uncalled for rep he got for smashing half backs, most of the time there are no forwards handling the ball out wider at first receiver to tackle. His job was to stop the ball getting out wide which he did with aplomb. No other forwards were quick enough to get to the half backs, that is why it was always him.
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:No 7&1/2 wrote:Old Man wrote:Soul Requiem wrote:Collapse2005 wrote:Old Man wrote:I think Gatland wants to use Lawes in the same mould as PSDT
I dont get what they see in Lawes myself. He is often described as really physical but I dont see it except when putting in late hits on guys half his size maybe, otherwise the Lions have more physical options they could use at 6.
Sure he is a good player and seens to have a good attitude but not sure what sets him apart from everyone else.
What?
The one thing that Lawes undeniably has is physicality, his reputation for hitting half backs late is about 5 years out of date. I'd be interested to know who the more physical options are? Quicker options without doubt but more physical I can't see anyone.
He hasn’t impressed me with his physicality though, thought he has a good engine and high work rate, excellent line out option at 6, but not in the physicality mode of PSDT for example
Yup. He'll hit people hard in tackles but I don't agree he's a good carrier in the tight, if you want that play Watson who is miles better. Strengthens our lineout though.
Take a look at Lawes stats in recent times, in the absence of a heavyweight carrier in the BV mold, the carrying has been shared and Lawes takes the Lions Share (excuse the pun). He doesn't make the ground BV used to make, but who does. He is comfortably as good as any other lock we have at doing the hard stuff in close and dirty.
His breakdown work has come on leaps and bounds as well, unusual for such a tall man but I have frequently seen him get his hands on the ball and then when the clearout comes he uses that impetus to rip the ball away.
I always used to take umbrage at the uncalled for rep he got for smashing half backs, most of the time there are no forwards handling the ball out wider at first receiver to tackle. His job was to stop the ball getting out wide which he did with aplomb. No other forwards were quick enough to get to the half backs, that is why it was always him.
Seeing all 6'7'' of him flying horizontally to make a tackle was always very impressive though.
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
I don't think that the Woos PR desk will care much about that.Dollar Bill wrote:George Carlin wrote:I wonder whether Worcester have had 2 British Lions before.![]()
Two Lions who have never played for them
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
Last edited by Collapse2005 on Wed 21 Jul 2021, 3:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
TJ- Posts : 8539
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:No 7&1/2 wrote:Old Man wrote:Soul Requiem wrote:Collapse2005 wrote:Old Man wrote:I think Gatland wants to use Lawes in the same mould as PSDT
I dont get what they see in Lawes myself. He is often described as really physical but I dont see it except when putting in late hits on guys half his size maybe, otherwise the Lions have more physical options they could use at 6.
Sure he is a good player and seens to have a good attitude but not sure what sets him apart from everyone else.
What?
The one thing that Lawes undeniably has is physicality, his reputation for hitting half backs late is about 5 years out of date. I'd be interested to know who the more physical options are? Quicker options without doubt but more physical I can't see anyone.
He hasn’t impressed me with his physicality though, thought he has a good engine and high work rate, excellent line out option at 6, but not in the physicality mode of PSDT for example
Yup. He'll hit people hard in tackles but I don't agree he's a good carrier in the tight, if you want that play Watson who is miles better. Strengthens our lineout though.
Take a look at Lawes stats in recent times, in the absence of a heavyweight carrier in the BV mold, the carrying has been shared and Lawes takes the Lions Share (excuse the pun). He doesn't make the ground BV used to make, but who does. He is comfortably as good as any other lock we have at doing the hard stuff in close and dirty.
His breakdown work has come on leaps and bounds as well, unusual for such a tall man but I have frequently seen him get his hands on the ball and then when the clearout comes he uses that impetus to rip the ball away.
I always used to take umbrage at the uncalled for rep he got for smashing half backs, most of the time there are no forwards handling the ball out wider at first receiver to tackle. His job was to stop the ball getting out wide which he did with aplomb. No other forwards were quick enough to get to the half backs, that is why it was always him.
He has his plusses and is certainly a good player. Prefer others to him to start particularly at blindside. Never understood the rep on the tackles he got as none stood out as late etc and personally I like to see anyforward getting to the half backs.
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
George Carlin wrote:I wonder whether Worcester have had 2 British Lions before.![]()
you copied that from twitter!
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
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