South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July

First topic message reminder :

                                  
SOUTH AFRICA v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS
Saturday 24 July
KO: 18:00 SAST / 17:00 UK / 20:00 Dubai  
Cape Town Stadium (Newlands), Cape Town
Sky Sports Main Event

Referee: Nic Berry (Australia)
Assistant Referees: Ben O’Keeffe, Mathieu Raynal
TMO: Marius Bloody Jonker of all people

TEAMS:

SOUTH AFRICA:
15 – Willie le Roux (Toyota Verblitz) – 62 caps, 60 pts (12t)
14 – Cheslin Kolbe (Toulouse) – 14 caps, 40 pts (8t)
13 – Lukhanyo Am (Cell C Sharks) – 15 caps, 15 pts (3t)
12 – Damian de Allende (Munster) – 47 caps, 30 pts (6t)
11 – Makazole Mapimpi (Cell C Sharks) – 14 caps, 70 pts (14t)
10 – Handré Pollard (vice-captain – Montpellier) – 49 caps, 465pts (6t, 78c, 89p, 4d)
09 – Faf de Klerk (Sale Sharks) – 30 caps, 20 pts (4t)

08 – Kwagga Smith (Yamaha Júbilo) – 7 caps, 5 pts (1t)
07 – Pieter-Steph du Toit (DHL Stormers) – 56 caps, 25 pts (5t)
06 – Siya Kolisi (captain – Cell C Sharks) – 51 caps, 30 pts (6t)
05 – Franco Mostert (Honda Heat) – 40 caps, 5pts (1t)
04 – Eben Etzebeth (Toulon) – 86 caps, 15 pts (3t)
03 – Trevor Nyakane (Vodacom Bulls) – 43 caps, 5 pts (1t)
02 – Bongi Mbonambi (DHL Stormers) – 37 caps, 40 pts (8t)
01 – Ox Nché (Cell C Sharks) – 2 caps, 0 pts

16 – Malcolm Marx (Kubota Spears) – 34 caps, 30 pts (6t)
17 – Steven Kitshoff (DHL Stormers) – 48 caps, 5pts (1t)
18 – Frans Malherbe (DHL Stormers) – 39 caps, 5pts (1t)
19 – Lood de Jager (Sale Sharks) – 45 caps, 25 pts (5t)
20 – Rynhardt Elstadt (Toulouse) – 2 caps, 0 pts
21 – Herschel Jantjies (DHL Stormers) – 11 caps, 25 pts (5t)
22 – Elton Jantjies (Pau) – 38 caps, 283 pts (2t, 63c, 49p)
23 – Damian Willemse (DHL Stormers) – 7 caps, 5pts (1t)

BRITISH & IRISH LIONS:
15. Stuart Hogg (Exeter, Scotland) #783
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, England) #816
13. Elliot Daly (Saracens, England) #822
12. Robbie Henshaw (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #824
11. Duhan van der Merwe (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #841
10. Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints, Wales) #821
09. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors, Scotland) #843

01. Rory Sutherland (Worcester, Scotland) #840
02. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter, England) #851
03. Tadhg Furlong (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #818
04. Maro Itoje (Saracens, England) #825
05. Alun Wyn Jones (C) (Ospreys, Wales) #761
06. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, England) #826
07. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, England) #853
08. Jack Conan (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #839

16. Ken Owens (Scarlets, Wales) #829
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, England) #787
18. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, England) #814
19. Tadhg Beirne (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #838
20. Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby, Scotland) #847
21. Conor Murray (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #790
22. Owen Farrell (Saracens, England) #780
23. Liam Williams (Scarlets, Wales) #833

PREVIEW:

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

miltonkeynesengland wrote:AWJ was immense. Him and Itoje are incredible.

Thank you South Africa...your guys really hit it hard.

Or invisible for most of the game.

You really can’t stand it when someone praises a non-English player.

Or I just make honest comments. Didn't think he influenced the game at all. First half meandered something that Farrell gets criticised for and personally looked half the man of his lock partner. Not really bothered about the English thing but clearly you are with the Welsh.

@FHF they're showing Itoje's turnovers again, get ready to count!

Adams in for me too.

Sad to see people still have to try knocking the same players. AWJ high tackle count (was second highest near the end). Won three penalties or so, which at least two were pretty key. Led well. Communicated well with the officials. Suppose when he went past the fifty minutes max that people wanted, people will get desperate.

Poorfour wrote:Not the best quality game, but the Lions did well to turn it around in the second half. Very much a question of whose defence and discipline would buckle first.

Itoje did well. Mako scrummaged surprisingly effectively; Sutherland didn’t. Back line looked clueless much of the time.

Jonker couldn’t resist influencing the game, and the Lions were lucky it turned their way. The Boks can feel aggrieved about the first disallowed try and the lack of a card for Watson.

Some interesting questions for next week. Will Biggar and/or Russell be recovered in time? How bad is Wyn Jones, and if so, who should they call up (if I were Gatland, I’d be on the phone to Marler by now)? Do the Lions need to actually play with the ball?

There were a couple of blunders officiating wise. Bit that is how the cookie crumbles.

The match didn’t go exactly as I expected. Boks surprisingly led at halftime, but when the second half started the Boks looked flat, the Bomb squad were ineffective and we knocked too many balls, which meant we had no possession and couldn’t play territory, and then the penalties kept on stacking up.

From there everything went south. Something tells me the team has fitness issues, their performance dropped as it did in the SA A match.

Watson for me was treated like a ragdoll when he came on. We need Lawes on the field.

Gatland played his bench brilliantly. The water boy played his bench too soon, praying for his better scrummaging front row to turn the screw. When that didn’t materialise, they didn’t have a great deal to turn to.

Poorfour wrote:Not the best quality game, but the Lions did well to turn it around in the second half. Very much a question of whose defence and discipline would buckle first.

Itoje did well. Mako scrummaged surprisingly effectively; Sutherland didn’t. Back line looked clueless much of the time.

Jonker couldn’t resist influencing the game, and the Lions were lucky it turned their way. The Boks can feel aggrieved about the first disallowed try and the lack of a card for Watson.

Some interesting questions for next week. Will Biggar and/or Russell be recovered in time? How bad is Wyn Jones, and if so, who should they call up (if I were Gatland, I’d be on the phone to Marler by now)? Do the Lions need to actually play with the ball?

The first try being disallowed was the right call but for the wrong reason - not sure he was offside (certainly not clear and obvious but the TMO has previous for that doesn't he) but the pass before that was clearly forwards - I often wonder what the officials are looking at. There were plenty of other poor decisions or non-decisions for both sides, not a great day for the officials overall.

Agree with Risca that the sub calls were much better played by the Lions. SA’s supposedly superior front row bench never materialised either.

BamBam wrote:@FHF they're showing Itoje's turnovers again, get ready to count!

Yes and it was still 2 in the first half. If you don't understand what a turnover I can explain it to you

SA can feel a bit aggrieved for one non-try and the Watson yellow but the Lions really upped the ante second half.

Boks will improve but so should the Lions. Minimal changes for second test. Farrell in for Biggar (if necessary) and maybe Adams for VDM.

Glad to see Vunipola stand up well.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

miltonkeynesengland wrote:AWJ was immense. Him and Itoje are incredible.

Thank you South Africa...your guys really hit it hard.

Or invisible for most of the game.

You really can’t stand it when someone praises a non-English player.

Or I just make honest comments. Didn't think he influenced the game at all. First half meandered something that Farrell gets criticised for and personally looked half the man of his lock partner. Not really bothered about the English thing but clearly you are with the Welsh.

AWJ was well off the pace for me, he was a passenger.

I'd bring Adams in for DVDM who was poor defensively (as expected). So not to show English bias....drop Daly, he was a major issue on offence and defence.

Who was motm? I'm guessing Lawes or Itoje? Both immense. No idea who got it...my pigeon French didn't pick it up in commentary.

RiscaGame wrote:Adams in for me too.

Sad to see people still have to try knocking the same players. AWJ high tackle count (was second highest near the end). Won three penalties or so, which at least two were pretty key. Led well. Communicated well with the officials. Suppose when he went past the fifty minutes max that people wanted, people will get desperate.

Weirdly AWJ got better as the game went on. I thought he was off the pace in the first half but as the Lions intensity increased in the second half he went with it. I fully expected him to fall away after about 50 mins but there you go. Similar with Lawes who didn't have a great first half but really turned up in the second.

As an aside I thought the ref had a very good game. TMO had some tough decisions to make and did ok.

Itoje’s performance was particularly satisfying in terms of flfhalffactory’s earlier comments. I hope that humble pie is tasty

Some very weird comments here with definitive pronouncements about some Lions players being terrible. I didn't see that at all - I don't think that anyone played particularly poorly. The entire team looked petrified in the first half and didn't play with any care or control. If you're going to dump on one player, you need to defecate on everyone.

Not sure you'll see too many changes to the 23. If our problem is the lack of game time for combinations, it's hardly smart to change them all over again the next week.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

miltonkeynesengland wrote:AWJ was immense. Him and Itoje are incredible.

Thank you South Africa...your guys really hit it hard.

Or invisible for most of the game.

You really can’t stand it when someone praises a non-English player.

Or I just make honest comments. Didn't think he influenced the game at all. First half meandered something that Farrell gets criticised for and personally looked half the man of his lock partner. Not really bothered about the English thing but clearly you are with the Welsh.

AWJ was well off the pace for me, he was a passenger.

I'd bring Adams in for DVDM who was poor defensively (as expected). So not to show English bias....drop Daly, he was a major issue on offence and defence.

Who was motm? I'm guessing Lawes or Itoje? Both immense. No idea who got it...my pigeon French didn't pick it up in commentary.

Plenty of support for Lawes. He made the tackles we would expect his carrying later in the game wasngood but his breakdown was crap imo. Left Curry in a hole. If that's what Gatland wants and him staying on suggests he was then fair enough. I'd want different from my 6.

What is Greenwood’s haircut all about?

TMO was far to quick to dismiss the forward pass. The guy was half a metre Infront.

Worrying for the future games!

Good win but the Lions were a touch lucky and quite sloppy at times.

What is going on with Greenwoods hair?

Poorfour wrote:Some interesting questions for next week. Will Biggar and/or Russell be recovered in time? How bad is Wyn Jones, and if so, who should they call up (if I were Gatland, I’d be on the phone to Marler by now)? Do the Lions need to actually play with the ball?

You'd be trying to call up the guy that doesn't want to play internationally as it means spending time away from his family. The same guy that didn't like touring with the Lions last time and who's publicly said if he was Gatland he wouldn't pick him.

Marler is an exceptional loosehead but I think he's a club player now and people need to let it go. Playing for Quins is what makes him happy, he's tried the other stuff and he doesn't want to do it again. Fair enough family comes first.

Hopefully Wyn Jones is going to be ok to have a crack at SA next weekend.

TightHEAD wrote:What is going on with Greenwoods hair?

I like it anyway

TightHEAD wrote:TMO was far to quick to dismiss the forward pass. The guy was half a metre Infront.

Worrying for the future games!

I have come to the conclusion you are trolling. The much vaunted unfairness of appointing a SA referee as TMO has not dented the chances of the Lions at all. in fact he quickly dismissed the tip tackle.

Big Phil V can play both sides. Gats, get him on the phone!

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Some interesting questions for next week. Will Biggar and/or Russell be recovered in time? How bad is Wyn Jones, and if so, who should they call up (if I were Gatland, I’d be on the phone to Marler by now)? Do the Lions need to actually play with the ball?

You'd be trying to call up the guy that doesn't want to play internationally as it means spending time away from his family. The same guy that didn't like touring with the Lions last time and who's publicly said if he was Gatland he wouldn't pick him.

Marler is an exceptional loosehead but I think he's a club player now and people need to let it go. Playing for Quins is what makes him happy, he's tried the other stuff and he doesn't want to do it again. Fair enough family comes first.

Hopefully Wyn Jones is going to be ok to have a crack at SA next weekend.

Aside from the fact he said he did want to go on tour.

George Carlin wrote:Some very weird comments here with definitive pronouncements about some Lions players being terrible. I didn't see that at all - I don't think that anyone played particularly poorly. The entire team looked petrified in the first half and didn't play with any care or control. If you're going to dump on one player, you need to defecate on everyone.

Not sure you'll see too many changes to the 23. If our problem is the lack of game time for combinations, it's hardly smart to change them all over again the next week.

Yeah agree, no one was outstanding really but equally no one terrible, some sloppy moments and rode their luck at times. Good result though.

Old Man wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:TMO was far to quick to dismiss the forward pass. The guy was half a metre Infront.

Worrying for the future games!

I have come to the conclusion you are trolling. The much vaunted unfairness of appointing a SA referee as TMO has not dented the chances of the Lions at all. in fact he quickly dismissed the tip tackle.

It was a great play by Gatland to put the refs on notice during the week. Thought they behaved themselves.

Collapse2005 wrote:Good win but the Lions were a touch lucky and quite sloppy at times.

Nobody would argue with that. I can't understand how Watson wasn't a goner with his tip tackle. To be completely fair, Berry was standing right in front of the incident and called it as a penalty only straight away. I would imagine that Kolisi at least asked the question.

formerly known as Sam wrote:You'd be trying to call up the guy that doesn't want to play internationally as it means spending time away from his family. The same guy that didn't like touring with the Lions last time and who's publicly said if he was Gatland he wouldn't pick him.

Marler is an exceptional loosehead but I think he's a club player now and people need to let it go. Playing for Quins is what makes him happy, he's tried the other stuff and he doesn't want to do it again. Fair enough family comes first.

Hopefully Wyn Jones is going to be ok to have a crack at SA next weekend.

Hopefully he does.

But it’s not that Marler doesn’t want to play internationally; he doesn’t want to be away from his family for the amount of time that international rugby currently demands. Being away for 2 weeks is very different from being away for 8 weeks. If I were Gatland and I weren’t confident of my props’ fitness, I’d make the call. The worst that can happen is that he says no, and I have to call up someone else.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Old Man wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:TMO was far to quick to dismiss the forward pass. The guy was half a metre Infront.

Worrying for the future games!

I have come to the conclusion you are trolling. The much vaunted unfairness of appointing a SA referee as TMO has not dented the chances of the Lions at all. in fact he quickly dismissed the tip tackle.

It was a great play by Gatland to put the refs on notice during the week. Thought they behaved themselves.

Yes he made sure the TMO would not favour SA, job done. Now if you can get that message across to tighthead, he seems to have missed it.

Jack Conan had a great game. I guess he’s too Irish for some to mention it .

Old Man - what do you think will change in terms of selection for you next week?

Thought the tackle was a non event myself, Watson seemed to make an effort to put him down rather than drop him and Le Roux cushioned the fall with his arms. Watson will probably regret the risk though.

mikey_dragon wrote:Jack Conan had a great game. I guess he’s too Irish for some to mention it .

He did play well alright. Pride of St Gerards Bray.

Old Man wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:TMO was far to quick to dismiss the forward pass. The guy was half a metre Infront.

Worrying for the future games!

I have come to the conclusion you are trolling. The much vaunted unfairness of appointing a SA referee as TMO has not dented the chances of the Lions at all. in fact he quickly dismissed the tip tackle.

I agree with you, he's basically trolling. TMO had a good game

[quote="No 7&1/2"]

miltonkeynesengland wrote:AWJ was immense. Him and Itoje are incredible.

Thank you South Africa...your guys really hit it hard.

Or invisible for most of the game.[/quote

Only if you didn't watch the games

George Carlin wrote:Old Man - what do you think will change in terms of selection for you next week?

Don’t see much changing, perhaps Kwagga Smith out, he was busy, but didn’t really make an impact. Other than that maybe Koch in Nche out.

The problem really is the discipline, decision making and fitness that seems to be the biggest issues

Collapse2005 wrote:Thought the tackle was a non event myself, Watson seemed to make an effort to put him down rather than drop him and Le Roux cushioned the fall with his arms. Watson will probably regret the risk though.

If the ball wasn’t there he would have landed on his head, Watson tipped him beyond the vertical, a yellow card since how many yearsm
, there was no attempt to put him down safely

miltonkeynesengland wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

miltonkeynesengland wrote:AWJ was immense. Him and Itoje are incredible.

Thank you South Africa...your guys really hit it hard.

Or invisible for most of the game.[/quote

Only if you didn't watch the games

Well I watched it and saw it. As you've said the great players turn performances around before waiting on the coaches a key thing for the captain. He was a shadow, understandable given his injury a bit surprisingly kept on.

flyhalffactory wrote:

Old Man wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:TMO was far to quick to dismiss the forward pass. The guy was half a metre Infront.

Worrying for the future games!

I have come to the conclusion you are trolling. The much vaunted unfairness of appointing a SA referee as TMO has not dented the chances of the Lions at all. in fact he quickly dismissed the tip tackle.

I agree with you, he's basically trolling. TMO had a good game

I think it's a fair comment, less of the trolling pls.

So who got motm??

Itoje

flyhalffactory wrote:

BamBam wrote:@FHF they're showing Itoje's turnovers again, get ready to count!

Yes and it was still 2 in the first half. If you don't understand what a turnover I can explain it to you

He retrieved possession from the opposition 3 times in the first half. If you're hanging your hat on the fact that one of those was after Faf had picked it up then fair play for the commitment to your agenda

Itoje got MOTM officially

Old Man wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Old Man - what do you think will change in terms of selection for you next week?

Don’t see much changing, perhaps Kwagga Smith out, he was busy, but didn’t really make an impact. Other than that maybe Koch in Nche out.

The problem really is the discipline, decision making and fitness that seems to be the biggest issues

Old Man
Basically like the  SA A game, they run of steam, lack of game time, lack of fitness, lack of match sharpness creates knock on effects are discipline and decision making

Old Man wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Thought the tackle was a non event myself, Watson seemed to make an effort to put him down rather than drop him and Le Roux cushioned the fall with his arms. Watson will probably regret the risk though.

If the ball wasn’t there he would have landed on his head, Watson tipped him beyond the vertical, a yellow card since how many yearsm
, there was no attempt to put him down safely

Well Watson looked a bit sheepish afterwards like he sensed he was gonna get a card so he probably regretted it. Thought it was pretty borderline myself though.

BamBam wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

BamBam wrote:@FHF they're showing Itoje's turnovers again, get ready to count!

Yes and it was still 2 in the first half. If you don't understand what a turnover I can explain it to you

He retrieved possession from the opposition 3 times in the first half. If you're hanging your hat on the fact that one of those was after Faf had picked it up then fair play for the commitment to your agenda

Itoje got MOTM officially

MOTM doesn't alter the fact that he gained 2 TOs at that point. Official British Lions stats also confirm it
OK?

Once
Twice
Thrice
Four times an Itoje turnover.

Flyhalffactory, are you here to nibble at England player stats or support the Lions? I don’t just mean today, but generally?

flyhalffactory wrote:

BamBam wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

BamBam wrote:@FHF they're showing Itoje's turnovers again, get ready to count!

Yes and it was still 2 in the first half. If you don't understand what a turnover I can explain it to you

He retrieved possession from the opposition 3 times in the first half. If you're hanging your hat on the fact that one of those was after Faf had picked it up then fair play for the commitment to your agenda

Itoje got MOTM officially

MOTM doesn't alter the fact that he gained 2 TOs at that point. Official British Lions stats also confirm it
OK?

Are you ok? Why so angry about Itoje getting 3 turnovers in the first 40 mins, all the Lions fans were celebrating because it's a good thing! I would go and find the precise time of each turnover if I thought it would help, but you'd probably say one didn't count for some obscure reason

The MOTM point was to answer Pooly

Just back from the pub. Bloody hell, that was an unexceptional performance by both sides. Just a few close calls either way. Not sure if you discussed it but why didn't Mish get a card for that tackle. Couldn't hear the commentary very well. I was genuinely surprised the scrum in the second half was quite good for the Lions.

Ah Itoje...thanks guys. A big game player...he was great.