South Africa vs British and Irish Lions 7th August

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SOUTH AFRICA v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS
Saturday 7th August
KO: 18:00 SAST / 17:00 UK / 02:00 Australia  
Cape Town Stadium
Sky Sports Main Event

TEAMS:

SOUTH AFRICA
A very large bunch of blokes.

WAZZER'S WIZARDS

15. Liam Williams (Scarlets, Wales) #833
14. Josh Adams (Cardiff Rugby, Wales) #836
13. Robbie Henshaw (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #824
12. Bundee Aki (Connacht Rugby, Ireland) #837
11. Duhan van der Merwe (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #841
10. Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints, Wales) #821
09. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors, Scotland) #843

01. Wyn Jones (Scarlets, Wales) #842
02. Ken Owens (Scarlets, Wales) #829
03. Tadhg Furlong (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #818
04. Maro Itoje (Saracens, England) #825
05. Alun Wyn Jones – captain (Ospreys, Wales) #761
06. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, England) #826
07. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, England) #853
08. Jack Conan (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #839

16. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, England) #851
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, England) #787
18. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, England) #814
19. Adam Beard (Ospreys, Wales) #852
20. Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs, England) #849
21. Conor Murray (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #790
22. Finn Russell (Racing 92, Scotland) #835
23. Elliot Daly (Saracens, England) #822

Match intensity can be an issue when you haven’t played for three to four weeks.

However it is different for each player, some adjust to that intensity faster than others.

Tramptastic wrote:

alive555 wrote:

bsando wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Come Saturday evening the only positive I will take from this series win or lose is that we would have seen the end of Gatlands involvement with the Lions, Townsend too hopefully.

What has Toonie done wrong?

Oddly despite all the football like media coverage and press conferences (and whatever Rassie was up to) I’ve been really impressed with the squad itself. It’s been well balanced and hopefully the final test will be a Classic. There seems to be a real togetherness and an abundance of leadership from this Lions squad across all four nations. For me at least it shows why the Lions has to have a balance and not just be the best of one nation with the others filling in the gaps.

The tactics have been warrenball and to box to kick from 9 all day long, and it looks like thats whats on the menu for the weekend again

Lets face it Russell is simply an emergency option when the kick chase game once again inevitably fails!

Theres nothing wrong with a good kicking game, the intention often being to create a disrupted defensive line and attack the gaps that inherently open up, but a good attacking kicking game still needs to played at pace to keep the defense guessing. Its what Scotland showed could be achieved in the six nations with a kicking game, the only reason it failed in this 2nd test was ponderous pace - by the time the kick went up the boks were set and could defend the kick quite easily. Hopefully with Price restored at 9 the pace should pick up and the kicking game will be more effective!

theres everythng wrong with a kicking game when youre playing the boks. Thats their game; youre not going to beat the boks at their own game.

Correctly this has been roundly criticised in the press and amongst former players. In the last game Biggar passed 3 times. The tactic was to box kick all day from 9, which slows the game down - bok tactics. The result was well deserved, hope thay dont make the same mistake again or this could get ugly.

alive555 wrote:

Tramptastic wrote:

alive555 wrote:

bsando wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Come Saturday evening the only positive I will take from this series win or lose is that we would have seen the end of Gatlands involvement with the Lions, Townsend too hopefully.

What has Toonie done wrong?

Oddly despite all the football like media coverage and press conferences (and whatever Rassie was up to) I’ve been really impressed with the squad itself. It’s been well balanced and hopefully the final test will be a Classic. There seems to be a real togetherness and an abundance of leadership from this Lions squad across all four nations. For me at least it shows why the Lions has to have a balance and not just be the best of one nation with the others filling in the gaps.

The tactics have been warrenball and to box to kick from 9 all day long, and it looks like thats whats on the menu for the weekend again

Lets face it Russell is simply an emergency option when the kick chase game once again inevitably fails!

Theres nothing wrong with a good kicking game, the intention often being to create a disrupted defensive line and attack the gaps that inherently open up, but a good attacking kicking game still needs to played at pace to keep the defense guessing. Its what Scotland showed could be achieved in the six nations with a kicking game, the only reason it failed in this 2nd test was ponderous pace - by the time the kick went up the boks were set and could defend the kick quite easily. Hopefully with Price restored at 9 the pace should pick up and the kicking game will be more effective!

theres everythng wrong with a kicking game when youre playing the boks. Thats their game; youre not going to beat the boks at their own game.

Correctly this has been roundly criticised in the press and amongst former players. In the last game Biggar passed 3 times. The tactic was to box kick all day from 9, which slows the game down - bok tactics. The result was well deserved, hope thay dont make the same mistake again or this could get ugly.

You criticise anything that doesn't agree with your way of thinking. Some of you are an angry bunch when you don't get your own way.

I think it's fair to lay all the blame at the feet of Townsend, Sutherland and Hogg .

Whereas most would lay all the blame at the feet of Gatland, Jones and Biggar . Is there much bigger influences on a team's tactics than the head coach, captain and fly half?

BamBam wrote:Whereas most would lay all the blame at the feet of Gatland, Jones and Biggar   . Is there much bigger influences on a team's tactics than the head coach, captain and fly half?

Kicking coach?

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

BamBam wrote:Whereas most would lay all the blame at the feet of Gatland, Jones and Biggar   . Is there much bigger influences on a team's tactics than the head coach, captain and fly half?

Kicking coach?

The waterboy. Rassie's role for SA, and Townsend's role for the Lions .

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

BamBam wrote:Whereas most would lay all the blame at the feet of Gatland, Jones and Biggar   . Is there much bigger influences on a team's tactics than the head coach, captain and fly half?

Kicking coach?

Is there one? Should have spent more time with Biggar!

Some decent talking point from Care and Ashton from the Beeb podcast.
Care:
"I don't get the team, I don't understand a few things.

"I don't understand how Jamie George hasn't played a single minute in this Test series, it doesn't make sense to me.


"The lineout hasn't been firing at all and Jamie George is one of the best in the world at his throwing. I don't get that.


"To leave Owen Farrell out, when you are going into a do-or-die game, I don't get that.


Ashton: "That just screams to me they still don't know what they are trying to do.

"Before the tour we spoke to Robbie Henshaw and he said 'we're going to play attacking rugby and Gregor Townsend is going to put his stamp on this tour.'

"We haven't seen any of that the whole tour. It's been kick, kick, set-piece to set-piece, back your defence and kick chase. They can't do it better than South Africa but it still looks like they are not changing it.


"But if you are going to play that kicking game, play Murray and Farrell because they are the best nine and 10 to do it. Don't play Ali Price and Dan Biggar because, no disrespect, they are not as good as the other two at playing that game."

"I could be proven wrong but I don't think this team beats South Africa on Saturday."

I was convinced George would start at least one test, that bit is strange. I think the omission of Beirne is stranger though.

Kicking from Murray and Farrell has been just as aimless, so not sure how they've arrived at that conclusion.

Looks as though we just can't create space to attack against SA. Have many teams done that though?

New Zealand has managed to break SA defence, mainly through counter attack, their speed and ability to go to space on counter is sublime

mikey_dragon wrote:I was convinced George would start at least one test, that bit is strange. I think the omission of Beirne is stranger though.

Kicking from Murray and Farrell has been just as aimless, so not sure how they've arrived at that conclusion.

Looks as though we just can't create space to attack against SA. Have many teams done that though?  

Disagree on the kicking, Murray's kicks were excellent bar one or to. The kick chase was dreadful on Saturday, really poor. It seemed like none of the back three could catch a ball.

I'm sure Williams will make a big difference (hopefully).

I have never been Murray's number 1 fan but some of the criticism is ridiculous. Looks like he carried out the game plan to a tee to me. I wouldnt be surprised if Price will be asked to box kick a lot too.

mikey_dragon wrote:I was convinced George would start at least one test, that bit is strange. I think the omission of Beirne is stranger though.

Kicking from Murray and Farrell has been just as aimless, so not sure how they've arrived at that conclusion.

Looks as though we just can't create space to attack against SA. Have many teams done that though?  

Price's box kicking has been superb all tour - a pleasant surprise to us Scotland fans!

On the Squidge video he showed how the “pod” running back towards the Catchers ( in an attemlt to block the running line for the Bok chasers) were obscuring the guy running onto the ball often, which menas it contributed a lot to the aerial battle being won by the Springboks.

Old Man wrote:On the Squidge video he showed how the “pod” running back towards the Catchers ( in an attemlt to block the running line for the Bok chasers) were obscuring the guy running onto the ball often, which menas it contributed a lot to the aerial battle being won by the Springboks.

Everyone does that, the Boks also did it in the first test. The bigger issue was that the chasers contested the ball in the aim but rather than catch it they knocked it back to no one. No one else followed it up.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Old Man wrote:On the Squidge video he showed how the “pod” running back towards the Catchers ( in an attemlt to block the running line for the Bok chasers) were obscuring the guy running onto the ball often, which menas it contributed a lot to the aerial battle being won by the Springboks.

Everyone does that, the Boks also did it in the first test. The bigger issue was that the chasers contested the ball in the aim but rather than catch it they knocked it back to no one. No one else followed it up.

Yes everyone does that, but you are missing the point. The Lion pod is obstructing the run of his own player recieving the kick.

RDW wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I was convinced George would start at least one test, that bit is strange. I think the omission of Beirne is stranger though.

Kicking from Murray and Farrell has been just as aimless, so not sure how they've arrived at that conclusion.

Looks as though we just can't create space to attack against SA. Have many teams done that though?  

Price's box kicking has been superb all tour - a pleasant surprise to us Scotland fans!

Yeah I think he's been the best of the three 9's on tour.

I didn't think Murray and Farrell were great against SA 'a', wasn't really including the warm-ups which haven't been perfect but we still destroyed all the opposition.

Old Man wrote:New Zealand has managed to break SA defence, mainly through counter attack, their speed and ability to go to space on counter is sublime

Yeah just NZ. I think that's probably how they score most of their tries, through counter-attacking. They genuinely don't look as though they have a game plan, but on the day tend to rely more on their nous (which is unmatched) and natural attacking flair (also unmatched).

No 7&1/2 wrote:Some decent talking point from Care and Ashton from the Beeb podcast.
Care:
"I don't get the team, I don't understand a few things.

"I don't understand how Jamie George hasn't played a single minute in this Test series, it doesn't make sense to me.


"The lineout hasn't been firing at all and Jamie George is one of the best in the world at his throwing. I don't get that.


"To leave Owen Farrell out, when you are going into a do-or-die game, I don't get that.


Ashton: "That just screams to me they still don't know what they are trying to do.

"Before the tour we spoke to Robbie Henshaw and he said 'we're going to play attacking rugby and Gregor Townsend is going to put his stamp on this tour.'

"We haven't seen any of that the whole tour. It's been kick, kick, set-piece to set-piece, back your defence and kick chase. They can't do it better than South Africa but it still looks like they are not changing it.


"But if you are going to play that kicking game, play Murray and Farrell because they are the best nine and 10 to do it. Don't play Ali Price and Dan Biggar because, no disrespect, they are not as good as the other two at playing that game."

"I could be proven wrong but I don't think this team beats South Africa on Saturday."

To summarise, 'why aren't they selecting my mates?'. I've read similar soundbites in the Welsh media asking why they are not playing Liam Williams or Adams. I've read similar Scottish soundbites bemoaning the lack of game time for Scottish players (but strangely no other nationalities' players). Tis the way of the world.

Which ones are they mates with?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Which ones are they mates with?

George and Farrell.

Leaving behind the best kick chasing winger in the NH was another masterstroke

I agree entirely on George, but then I have already said how I consider Owens to be lucky there.

I don't agree on Farrell, because it's not as if he does done better than Biggar on tour (imo) and it's the first time Russell has been available. I get that he's been there and done it in a pressure cooker third test, but for me he hasn't got the form where it's an obvious error to not select him. Plus, Murray and Farrell had a go against SA in the A game and that didn't work out so well.

I'd prefer Brian May to Jonny May to be honest.

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Which ones are they mates with?

George and Farrell.

Are they? Not Biggar though?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Which ones are they mates with?

George and Farrell.

Are they? Not Biggar though?

England mates.

The Oracle wrote:I'd prefer Brian May to Jonny May to be honest.

Bizarre.

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Which ones are they mates with?

George and Farrell.

Are they? Not Biggar though?

England mates.

You mean they're English?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Which ones are they mates with?

George and Farrell.

Are they? Not Biggar though?

England mates.

You mean they're English?

I mean that they've probably been in the England camp with both and have probably developed a friendship and bond.  Like Jamie Roberts I think it was championing his Welsh mates the other day, which met a lot of 'flak' on here.

Would Ashton and Care even know Biggar?!

Don't know. Don't know either of them tbh so it'd be a leap to try and back up or discount their relevant points.

Like I say, tis the way of the world to argue for the inclusion of your national team mates. Just natural. But it does suggest a bit of (natural) bias. All good though as long as you remember that.

The BBC podcast came across as criticism of the game plan and tactics more than promoting players who come from where they do. They did say Murray as well to balance that. I don't agree with them, but it wasn't pick the English, pick the English!

To me its one of the better podcasts though - cant stand Hamilton and Goode (look at me, no look at me; I am so funny), Haskell has become beyond a parody of himself and the less said about the Rugbypass one with Wilson and Zebo the better.

It paints a picture that you feel that way certainly. It's easier to discount due to a made up reason than talk about the questions they raise.

The Oracle wrote:I'd prefer Brian May to Jonny May to be honest.

Well at least we're agreed that Brian May > Jonny May > Josh Adams

BamBam wrote:

The Oracle wrote:I'd prefer Brian May to Jonny May to be honest.

Well at least we're agreed that Brian May > Jonny May > Josh Adams

Definitely. This tour is so boring. Bring in Brian May to spice things up, and hopefully his hair will obscure Kolbe’s view of the high balls and we can get some tries!

The latest BBC podcast has completely different people - Monye, O'Gara and Shane Horgan. They have said the same thing as the others did - what is the plan, they haven't played this quick attacking way they said they were going to and O'Gara said Farrell hasn't been invested in and is surprised he is not involved.

So don't think the only picking their friends attitude applies at all - pretty consistent really on what they see is not working.

Quick attacking rugby is only possible if you win the breakdown, if you don’t get over the gainline defenses are set for the next phase

Did the Lions ever say they were going to play quick attacking rugby? Might have done but I can’t remember it. They’ve picked a touring squad for that sort of rugby. But was that something they said they were setting out to do??

So are you saying they picked coaches from a country that play an attacking game and more players from that country that have been picked in years, but are still going to play a power game? Picked players like Conan and Simmonds over Billy Vunipola and Russell over Sexton with no intent on using their strengths? Never thought of that before. Gatland has gone way down in my estimation if that's the case and the results of previous tours must be down to luck more than ability.

As with Care and Ashtons points he's picked some attacking players and then asked them to play a game better suited to others not chosen. And yes there was a fair slice of luck vs NZ (but you need that in sport) and underachievement against Australia.

Having listed to a number of pundit podcasts, there's a general despondency on the Lions side but not complete pessimism about this weekend.

A number of contributors take comfort in the knowledge that teams coached by Gatland don't usually get spanked. They have faith in Gatland's ability to put a team out to get a result. More broadly, the loss of de Klerk and du Toit is seen as a potential benefit, and there's a feeling that the Lions will surely not play as poorly again, and get so many bad breaks.

The observations by Care and Ashton are really not that different in content and tone from those by BOD, Tommy Seymour, Tom Shanklin & David Flatman, Ellie Genge, ROG, Alex Goode, Seán O'Brien and Jerry Flannery.

Obviously, not everyone agrees on the same points but here are a selection of some:

- Elliot Daly was selected as a playmaker centre. Perhaps Ringrose or Slade would have been a better way to bring the back three into the game. Those two centres are most cited as the missing piece, with Jon Davies also in the mix.

- Gatland took a rounded squad, offering some different strategic options. He dabbled with those options in the First Test but the game ended in a wrestling match, where the Lions fitness prevailed. This encouraged Gatland to try and close the series out with another wrestling match. However, a slower game nullified the Lions fitness advantage, and there were no gamebreaking options on the bench.

Consequently, the Third Test selection looks like what you might have expected for the First Test. It feels like a squad you would develop over the next two games, rather than end with.

- Owens is likely selected because he has an established understanding with Wyn Jones. Likewise, Aki and Henshaw know each other, and Williams has played alongside Adams. With that in mind, if you want to play Russell, then surely Price has to stay on, and not be subbed by Murray. Similarly, while LCD knows the English bench props, George has an even stronger working knowledge, which might have been the better option.

- While most on this forum, including a lot of England supporters, are happy Farrell is not involved, almost all the experienced Test pros can't understand it. They recognize his form was poor in the Six Nations but don't think he has been used correctly. Opinions vary about whether he should have been favoured over Biggar for the Second Test, given the Welshman's HIA recovery, or played alongside him, for a more accurate kicking game.

Very little of the discussion really focused on the breakdown, which is a bit surprising.

MichaelT wrote:So are you saying they picked coaches from a country that play an attacking game and more players from that country that have been picked in years, but are still going to play a power game? Picked players like Conan and Simmonds over Billy Vunipola and Russell over Sexton with no intent on using  their strengths? Never thought of that before. Gatland has gone way down in my estimation if that's the case and the results of previous tours must be down to luck more than ability.

I’m not saying anything. I was just asking the question based on your line “ they haven't played this quick attacking way they said they were going to”. Just can’t remember if they (Lions) actually said they were going to. As I said, they certainly picked a touring squad to do so, so I would have thought they’d play that way. As did lots of us by the sounds of it.

Biggar has been below par all tour. Sexton should have been selected.

TightHEAD wrote:Biggar has been below par all tour. Sexton should have been selected.

Biggar's test performances deserved selection. If you think Sexton should have been selected, then you'd need to choose between leaving Farrell or Russell at home.

Biggar has looked a shadow of himself so far.

Anyone who thinks he has performed on tour are kidding themselves.

TightHEAD wrote:Biggar has looked a shadow of himself so far.

Anyone who thinks he has performed on tour are kidding themselves.

It’s the gameplan that’s the blame

The Oracle wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Biggar has looked a shadow of himself so far.

Anyone who thinks he has performed on tour are kidding themselves.

It’s the gameplan that’s the blame

........or Bigger can't execute it as well as others.

TightHEAD wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Biggar has looked a shadow of himself so far.

Anyone who thinks he has performed on tour are kidding themselves.

It’s the gameplan that’s the blame

........or Bigger can't execute it as well as others.

Which others have executed it better? Plus, hard for a 10 to get involved if your 9 keeps kicking the ball away

That said, I’d be happy to start Russell as I feel we need a roll of the dice.

The Oracle wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Biggar has looked a shadow of himself so far.

Anyone who thinks he has performed on tour are kidding themselves.

It’s the gameplan that’s the blame

Did the coaches say they had a game plan? They are getting paid as coaches and have picked a squad of players, but did they actually say there was a plan for the tour?

MichaelT wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Biggar has looked a shadow of himself so far.

Anyone who thinks he has performed on tour are kidding themselves.

It’s the gameplan that’s the blame

Did the coaches say they had a game plan? They are getting paid as coaches and have picked a squad of players, but did they actually say there was a plan for the tour?

Yes I’ve heard Gatland say ‘game plan’ in interviews this tour. Even Gregor said the word the other day. But I do not know what it is.