Scotland Autumn Series 2021

First topic message reminder :

I know it's probably too early for this but seeing as my Summer Tour thread was well received, I thought I'd start another one for the Autumn Series with my thoughts on the teams etc, I've got to stay on the right side of the members hahaha.

It's certainly far too early to even predict a squad as no club matches have taken place yet, both Scottish sides are in the rebuild phase (I'll be watching closely) but that's for a later date.

I would like to echo what I said on Facebook a few weeks ago which is that I hope we get to see Ashman, Auterac, Sebastian, Henderson, Tuipolotu in the autumn, in other words, hopefully they ain't poached from us haha.

Anyway, here goes with our opposition:

First up is Tonga on October 30th, KO tbc: I do not really know much about them but I would imagine we would see a youngish team in this test, seeing as a lot of them missed out on the summer tour and, supposedly this is outside the test window which means clubs aren't forced to release players if they wish. I did notice that Tonga got hammered by New Zealand who humiliated them by over 100pts, however, I see them put up a better fight against us but do fully expect us to win this one.

Then we move on to November, when clubs are obliged to release players.

7th November: Australia, KO: 1415hrs: This will be a tough test because Australia are a very good team that recently managed a test series win over France. They have very good wingers that will be tough to stop so I'm predicting a very close test which we will lose narrowly.

13th November: South Africa, KO 1300hrs: This will be our toughest test of the series imho. I've watched a lot of them over the past month and tbh they are an excellent team with quality all over the park. Even in the first test, they were creating numerous chances, Lions just got lucky with some of the ref or tmo decisions imho. What I took out of the first test was that, if you keep Kolbe quiet then you have a chance no pressure there then DVDM, Darcy etc. I'm predicting a loss here too, probably by about 15pts,though I hope I'm wrong.

20th November: Japan, KO 1300hrs: This test has the makings of being entertaining and high scoring if previous affairs are anything to go by. Against the Lions and Ireland, they put up brave fights but ultimately lost due to errors and individual brilliance of their opponents but they will believe that they can win because they have done so before. I think this will be very high scoring with us getting the win by a margin of 5.

October and November can't come quickly enough imho lol, I just can't get excited by Edinburgh and Glasgow, both will struggle in the upcoming pro 14, especially as they are rebuilding.

Henderson has been playing for Leicester but not so much and mainly off the bench.

Maybe RG has said enough is enough on the international front. It is otherwise surprising not to see him as he has been playing pretty well this season.

https://www.theoffsideline.com/10-takeaways-from-gregor-townsends-scotland-squad-announcement/


Some clues to Toonie's thinking

Now that the official squad has been announced (not sure if that is the best wirding lol), I'd be interested to hear what you'd go for as the Tonga matchday 23? Is Dylan Richardson available to potentially get his debut.

I'll leave the Australia, SA and Japan team predictions another week or two just so we can see who's on form in England/France and also if anyone gets injured etc.

BigGee wrote:https://www.theoffsideline.com/10-takeaways-from-gregor-townsends-scotland-squad-announcement/


Some clues to Toonie's thinking

Good article - really useful update on the injury front too.

So Kinghorn definitely a FH and Keeble definitely a TH.

Probably means Graham or Hoyland to start at FB against Tonga.

Maybe something like this:

1. Schoeman
2. Turner
3. Keeble
4. Gilchrist
5. Sykes
6.Ritchie
7. Darge
8. Fagerson M
9. Horne
10. Thompson
11. Mclean
12. Johnson
13. Bennett
14. Steyn
15. Graham

Subs
Bhatti
McInally
McCallam
Hodgson
Richardson
Dobie
Kinghorn
Tuipolotu

Richatdson was allowed to train with the squad last week, so assuming he will also be allowed to play agsinst Tonga

The SA franchises have no games that week

BigGee wrote:Richatdson was allowed to train with the squad last week, so assuming he will also be allowed to play agsinst Tonga

The SA franchises have no games that week

Is the Tonga match in the test window?

Old Man wrote:

BigGee wrote:Richatdson was allowed to train with the squad last week, so assuming he will also be allowed to play agsinst Tonga

The SA franchises have no games that week

Is the Tonga match in the test window?

No it is not

Well I suppose then for a mere 100 million Euros they might release him

RDW wrote:

BigGee wrote:https://www.theoffsideline.com/10-takeaways-from-gregor-townsends-scotland-squad-announcement/


Some clues to Toonie's thinking

Good article - really useful update on the injury front too.

Yeah, a really informative article - didn't realise quite how bad the second row injuries are just now. Also confirms BigGee's suspicion that Kebble is being viewed as a TH, hence why he is playing there for Glasgow. Can't imagine that is in Glasgow's best interest, it's a very interesting dynamic where Wilson is being effectively dictated to by the national team boss - wonder how much he enjoys that?

EST wrote:

RDW wrote:

BigGee wrote:https://www.theoffsideline.com/10-takeaways-from-gregor-townsends-scotland-squad-announcement/


Some clues to Toonie's thinking

Good article - really useful update on the injury front too.

Yeah, a really informative article - didn't realise quite how bad the second row injuries are just now.  Also confirms BigGee's suspicion that Kebble is being viewed as a TH, hence why he is playing there for Glasgow.  Can't imagine that is in Glasgow's best interest, it's a very interesting dynamic where Wilson is being effectively dictated to by the national team boss - wonder how much he enjoys that?

He won’t.

Unless he’s eyeing up the Scotland job in the future

That’s the issue with our clubs being under the control of the SRU. Potential for meddling.

I dunno, it all depends on whether we think Townsend is a meddler/controlling or more collaborative now?

Mind it was him that brought Wilson up to Scotland so he clearly respects him and his opinion

Well he is playing Keeble at LH this week, so if he got an edict to get him some time in the saddle at TH, he choose to ignore it!

BigGee wrote:Well he is playing Keeble at LH this week, so if he got an edict to get him some time in the saddle at TH, he choose to ignore it!

It's a strange one, there does seem to be some meddling going on given that Kebble was played at TH last week and that Toonie has confirmed he is a TH for these tests, although it feasibly could have been Wilsons decision. I often think that meddling with a players position this late in a career is a bit of a recipe for disaster, Jon Welsh I thought was one of the most destructive LH's in the NH for a period of time and never understood moving him to the other side.

EST wrote:

BigGee wrote:Well he is playing Keeble at LH this week, so if he got an edict to get him some time in the saddle at TH, he choose to ignore it!

It's a strange one, there does seem to be some meddling going on given that Kebble was played at TH last week and that Toonie has confirmed he is a TH for these tests, although it feasibly could have been Wilsons decision.  I often think that meddling with a players position this late in a career is a bit of a recipe for disaster, Jon Welsh I thought was one of the most destructive LH's in the NH for a period of time and never understood moving him to the other side.  

Always hard to say. Keeble may be quite happy with the arrangement as he may potentially end up with a lot more caps that way as TH is where we are weak internationally, not LH.

Just looking at Keeble though, he just looks like a TH, he has got that size and bulk that would be incredibly hard for any opposing prop to shift. He may as well be part of that rare breed that are happy to cover both sides.

We will probably know more at the end of this international series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=oOK8v8ohiGI&feature=youtu.be


Interview with Dylan Richardson, talking a bit about why he choose Scotland amongst other things.


Comes over as a thoughtful young man and handled the awkward questions very well.

Worcester absolutely horsed again 66-10. That's over 150 points conceded in 3 games.

Sutherland and VDM certainly aren't going to be coming into camp with much confidence!

And there was me predicting Worcester improving vastly this season lol, I thought both Sutherland and King Duhan (that's my nickname for him aha ha) would strengthen them but how wrong could I be .

Also, I see Rory Hutchinson scored , hopefully he gets another chance for Scotland, I'm pretty sure he's still on Gregor's mind as he was an injury replacement for Summer series that got cancelled.

Australia beat Japan today, which means they retain the Raeburn Shield. Scotland now have a chance to claim it, if they can beat the Wallabies. Scotland last held it in 2018.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raeburn_Shield

Rugby Fan wrote:Australia beat Japan today, which means they retain the Raeburn Shield. Scotland now have a chance to claim it, if they can beat the Wallabies. Scotland last held it in 2018.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raeburn_Shield

I had no idea that was a thing!

Really strong game from Hutchinson last night too, although very much am armchair ride. It's crazy that we can have a player as talented as him he is deemed surplus to requirements!

BigGee wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=oOK8v8ohiGI&feature=youtu.be


Interview with Dylan Richardson, talking a bit about why he choose Scotland amongst other things.


Comes over as a thoughtful young man and handled the awkward questions very well.

Thanks so much for posting that Gee - what a good interview and a sensible, mature kid.

https://www.606v2.com/t70424-scotland-v-tonga-saturday-30th-october-2021#4005794


Its almost Tonga time!

RDW wrote:Really strong game from Hutchinson last night too, although very much am armchair ride. It's crazy that we can have a player as talented as him he is deemed surplus to requirements!

It's only been 8 years since we were all watching Graeme Morrison and Nick De Luca through the gaps in our fingers.

George Carlin wrote:

RDW wrote:Really strong game from Hutchinson last night too, although very much am armchair ride. It's crazy that we can have a player as talented as him he is deemed surplus to requirements!

It's only been 8 years since we were all watching Graeme Morrison and Nick De Luca through the gaps in our fingers.

I think they were both playing against Tonga that day in Aberdeen that we have tried to forget about!

The team wasn't actually as bad as I thought it would be!

Scotland: Hogg, Lamont, Evans, Scott, Visser, Laidlaw, Pyrgos, Traynor, S. Lawson, Murray, Gray, Kellock, Strokosch, K. Brown, Denton.

Replacements: De Luca for Evans (64), Heathcote for Laidlaw (71), R. Lawson for Pyrgos (55), Hall for S. Lawson (52), Cross for Murray (52), Barclay for Denton (55).

Not Used: Reid, Gilchrist.

RDW wrote:The team wasn't actually as bad as I thought it would be!

Scotland: Hogg, Lamont, Evans, Scott, Visser, Laidlaw, Pyrgos, Traynor, S. Lawson, Murray, Gray, Kellock, Strokosch, K. Brown, Denton.

Replacements: De Luca for Evans (64), Heathcote for Laidlaw (71), R. Lawson for Pyrgos (55), Hall for S. Lawson (52), Cross for Murray (52), Barclay for Denton (55).

Not Used: Reid, Gilchrist.

I guess the question we should ask is how many of that team would be likely to be playing in the current Scotland team?

Hoggy obviously.

Other than that, Euan Murray at his best (and not on a sunday) but still would only bench behind Zander.

Greig Laidlaw, but certainly not at FH!

Matt Scott, in the squad but probably not starting.

Kelly Brown and Dave Denton would be in the conversations but am not convinced either would be starting.


It would seem our team has come a long way!

I'd say Richie Gray but that was during his Sale period so not so great!

Jim Hamilton's take on our AIs in the Sunday Times.



It already feels like an age since Scotland’s brilliant Six Nations wins away to England and France. What happens over the next four weeks will set the tone for how the team’s 2021 is remembered, and there is plenty of intrigue around each of their four fixtures.

It all starts with Tonga on Saturday, when Gregor Townsend must do without his players based in England and France due to the match taking place outside the Test window.

Tonga will be missing a host of starters as well, though, and we need only look back nine years to the Pittodrie disaster to see what can happen if you’re not right on your game against a side that always shows absolute fervour for the jersey, regardless of who is wearing it.

Having said that, Scotland have progressed to a point where they should be winning this game comfortably. Yes, the absence of those bigger names presents a challenge but we like to think that the country has greater strength in depth than at any time in the professional era and this is an ideal chance to prove it.

With Finn Russell and Adam Hastings unavailable, I want to see Ross Thompson at fly half. The 22-year-old pivot was exceptional for Glasgow Warriors in the second half of last season and has carried on that form in a team that looks to have a sharper attacking edge.

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If we’re talking about building the future of the national team, with emphasis on the 2023 World Cup and beyond, Thompson has to be the next cab off the rank.

I don’t see Blair Kinghorn as a ten, or certainly not as a long-term option there, and it would be a real opportunity missed not to start Thompson against Tonga.

Elsewhere in the midfield, I’d have another impressive Warrior, Sione Tuipulotu. He may not have a very Scottish-sounding name, but he’s also unlike anything else we have seen in the centres since Alex Dunbar was in his prime. Tuipulotu is a gainline buster, a hulking great battering ram of a man in the mould of a prime Manu Tuilagi or Ma’a Nonu. He looks to me like the sort of guy who would rise to the challenge of playing in a Test, especially against the land of his father Tuhefohe’s birth.

Second row is interesting. Both parts of the exceptional Scott Cummings/Jonny Gray axis miss out through injury, while the likes of Ben Toolis, Alex Craig, Cameron Henderson and Glen Young are also absent. Richie Gray, meanwhile, has not been selected.

There are going to be some greener faces behind the scrum, which makes it even more vital that Grant Gilchrist leads from the front in the boiler house. He finished the Six Nations strongly, is expert in calling the lineout and looks really robust at the moment. Sam Skinner won’t be there for Tonga, but I’d have him in against Australia and South Africa, where he can bring to bear the mix of strengths that make him an ideal modern 4/6.


He has had little luck with injury in recent times, and indeed is only just coming back into the Exeter Chiefs team after a pre-season knock. However, I’m more than confident that if Skinner can get a run of games in this Scotland team, he will cement his position. In the lineout and the loose, he is a formidable athlete and a special player.

The Wallabies will come to Edinburgh mindful of the fact that Scotland turned them over home and away in the two most recent meetings, in 2017. Australia are an entirely different proposition these days, however, with Dave Rennie and Matt Taylor having guided them to two fantastic wins over the Springboks alongside my good friend and former team-mate Petrus du Plessis, who has built a formidable scrum.

History says that the Wallabies are the more likely of this year’s two autumn A-listers to suffer defeat at Murrayfield, but I believe Scotland will fancy their chances against South Africa. Now, knowing exactly what the Boks are going to do is very different to being able to counteract it, but Townsend, his defence coach Steve Tandy and the eight players who also toured with the British & Irish Lions will back themselves to deliver.

I’d love to see Scotland doing what the Lions should have done by putting the emphasis on attack, because if it’s defence v defence, there is only one winner.

Japan, who round off the series on November 20, are the team who scare me the most. They destroyed Scotland at the 2019 World Cup with a breathtakingly high-tempo and accurate brand of rugby, and even after not playing for two years, they still brought that same intent to the pre-tour game against the Lions in Edinburgh in June.

They were ultimately well beaten, but if Japan continue on that same trajectory, it won’t be long before they are competing at the very top end of the international game. They will be viewing this Scotland match as an opportunity to make a statement that what they did in 2019 wasn’t just about a home World Cup — that it was no flash in the pan.

Whatever the outcome, those middle two games will take a huge amount out of Scotland physically and mentally and all the while the closer against Japan will be lurking in the long grass.

If Scotland go into that having only beaten Tonga, it wouldn’t take much for a disappointing few weeks to turn into outright disaster.

Let’s think positive, however. Scotland have made so much individual and collective progress since 2019, and if players new and old step up to the mark, this can be another memorable month — for all the right reasons.

I'm going to the Japan game, first international at Murrayfield for me since AB's in 2017. I think it'll be a very entertaining match and one Scotland should be able to win this time around. I think Scotland have improved since 2019 where as Japan have possibly dropped off slightly.

Although Japan, SA and Aus will all be tough opponents as well as Tonga against a second string Scotland side, it should very much be the beginning of the run in to the RWC in 2023 in my mind. Losses in the Autumn are acceptable when backed up with a good 6N. The other way around less so.

Scotland came their closest to winning the 6N last year and this year they should be looking to use the Autumn to add some additional depth to improve on that goal. Each 6N is always very different as teams evolve but Scotland should be in a better place if they can unlock some new talent this Autumn.

In terms of the world cup I think there is a risk of peaking too early. Hogg will be 31 by the time France 2023 comes around. As Scotland's potential captain and FB is that the right choice? Should Townsend be looking to pass the baton onto another player? If so who would that be? Ritchie would probably be a lot of fans choice and he has the time to develop into a brilliant captain for Scotland.

Looking ahead I see the next few years being fairly unsettled with numerous caps being dished out in the run up to 2023. As fans I think that yes, we want the younger players to be gaining caps and experience. We want to have a 2023 squad where every player is considered dependable. No last minute additions like Blade Thompson in 2019, who wasn't up to par defensively at times and a bit of an unknown at international level.

The AB's are always the team to use as a guide. They've slowly plucked out new players from their Mariana trench of depth who are all thriving and building well in the run up to the world cup.

If I were Townsend and co I wouldn't over think it too much. Just improve depth in each position and start to whittle that down into a pecking order come 2023.

I am coming up for Japan as well Bsando, am really looking forward to it, you just can't beat going to a live game

If Hogg is 31 by the WC we'd have to prise the captaincy off him with a jackhammer. He'll have this as a big target in his mind now

A good point about last minute callups of relative ransoms to WC squads in recent tournaments. We shouldn't really be in a position of having to bring in one or two very late additions with very little experience, other than exceptional players.

As a separate topic of conversation, should we be targeting the WC over say the 6N? For me we have a slim but possible chance of winning a 6N in the next 5 years. I think we have 0 chance of winning a WC in my lifetime.

So why do we put so much focus on the world cup!

RDW wrote:If Hogg is 31 by the WC we'd have to prise the captaincy off him with a jackhammer. He'll have this as a big target in his mind now

A good point about last minute callups of relative ransoms to WC squads in recent tournaments. We shouldn't really be in a position of having to bring in one or two very late additions with very little experience, other than exceptional players.

As a separate topic of conversation, should we be targeting the WC over say the 6N? For me we have a slim but possible chance of winning a 6N in the next 5 years. I think we have 0 chance of winning a WC in my lifetime.

So why do we put so much focus on the world cup!

Never say never RDW , Leicester and my Team, Inverness Caledonian Thistle (Scottish Cup 2015) proved that anything is possible .

BTW, a very good article by a man I like, Jim Hamilton buy then again, I like most pundits .

No we shouldn’t be targeting a World Cup over a 6ns win but we also shouldn’t target a 6ns over the World Cup. They go hand and hand and realistically you want to make the team successful and do well in both.

Summer tours are for blooding youngsters. AIs are for tinkering with a settled team. 6ns are there for trying to win and building momentum or consistency and you look to take that into a world
Cup.

Also, gutting that Bennett has dropped out injured. I really wanted to see him in the dark blue again.

Not convinced Bradbury will do a job on the centre but I guess his Maw only just realised he wasn’t in the squad and had to get him in there somewhere

BigGee wrote:I am coming up for Japan as well Bsando, am really looking forward to it, you just can't beat going to a live game

Yup I've missed it a lot as well, can't wait to be back. To be honest most games at Murrayfield feel like a blur and I often rewatch them at home the following day. That has absolutely nothing to do with the various pubs visited pre kick off.

BigGee wrote:I am coming up for Japan as well Bsando, am really looking forward to it, you just can't beat going to a live game

Mind yer vaccine passport Gee

tigertattie wrote:Also, gutting that Bennett has dropped out injured. I really wanted to see him in the dark blue again.  

Not convinced Bradbury will do a job on the centre but I guess his Maw only just realised he wasn’t in the squad and had to get him in there somewhere

Same, this felt like a big chance for him to get things back on track after the injury years then the Cockers years, gutted to see that injury has struck again!

I noticed a very strange tweet from Sale earlier stating that Ewan Ashman meets up with the Scotland squad (they were basically just wishing him well) this week but surely they don't have to release him :O.

If he is available then great .

I think they release players for a couple of training days, but not for games.

The Premiership has a very strict policy on this and have heavily fined clubs in the past for breaking its rules.

Probably slightly off topic so sorry mods (I think hehehe) but I was just watching David Flatman on YouTube on his weekly premiership roundup show, the lowdown and he said 2 guys played well in round 6: Gus Warr at Sale and Andy Christie at Saracens or Wasps.

As far as I'm aware, both are either Scottish or Scottish Qualified so maybe both are potential prospects for us in the future, correct me if I'm wrong lol.

Just read that Fin Smith - the 19 year old  Worcester fly half - is the grandsons of a late Scotland captain and Lions tourist Arthur Smith!

So he's SQ....

RDW wrote:Just read that Fin Smith - the 19 year old  Worcester fly half - is the grandsons of a late Scotland captain and Lions tourist Arthur Smith!

So he's SQ....

I think he played for us at 10 all the way through the U20 6N and looks like a handy player who will be down the pecking order for England for a while. He's going to be developing for a couple of years before either you or us should start worrying about him too much.

A lot of good FHs around all over the place at the moment.

Some players may have some big decesions to make a little while down the line

And so we get to the Autumn internationals

Are there a limit to the number of spectators?

Old Man wrote:Are there a limit to the number of spectators?

No, just Tonga not quite the draw.

Next three weeks are sold out

Thx

Hutchinson had a bit of a mare from fullback at the weekend, albeit against a rampaging Leicester team. Goal line dropout straight to Ford who boomed a DG, then had a kick charged down leading to a Leicester try.

In case you missed the first round of the Bezos Cup, through work commitments, halloween shenanigans or the refusal to bow to the Amazon Prime Master, I tried to rate the Scotland players yesterday.

As I write in the article - fair play to Jamie Lyall. I do some commentary myself and can't imagine how hard it was to nail the Tongan pronunciations - he did just that.

https://thefinalthistle.wordpress.com/2021/10/31/scotland-v-tonga-player-ratings/

Let me know if you agree or (more likely) disagree!