This Is The Official v2 Golf Board's Ryder Cup Thread: Please Post Here!

[pedro]

First topic message reminder :

RCB was only mentioned as a potential pick in lack of alternatives.

[super_realist]

The apparent justification of so many that the PGAT and DPWT have held events in Saudi or China before, so therefore there's nothing wrong w/ LIV, is childish, at best.

Where does one draw the line? Would money from Putin be OK? Hitler? Are we OK with the apparent logic that two wrongs do, indeed, make a right? For me, they've crossed a line with this. Happy if others disagree.

They can do what they want, these players, but it doesn't mean there isn't a consequence for an action. **** them is my position. Hope they either get zero OWGR points, or they get a joke minimum, reflecting the clear lack of anything remotely competitive about the LIV events and the has-beens taking part. At least one good outcome of LIV is that more up-and-coming players might get to play in PGAT/DPWT events.

As for Stenson: a liar AND a Saudi lickspittle. Good riddance. Nice way to ruin your reputation.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but peoples criticism of LIV shouldn't be down to human rights. That's the laughable bit. PGA players and DP players don't stand on any moral high ground here.

It's simply money, and i can't really blame anyone for that. The fake outrage here is hilarious, not you specifically Navy, but the general over the top hysteria about anything remotely controversial these days.

If players are trying to defend it for flimsy reasons then they deserve to be called on on hypocrisy reasons like is done with morons like Lewis Hamilton or Prince Harry but simply moving for more pay is fine as long as you don't try and excuse it for "growing the game" or "providing for your family"

Super, one off events in Saudi were always unpalatable but it is crossing a line when they want to buy pro golf. Also if you accept 2 wrongs don't make a right then I don't understand the whataboutery argument you have made above?

I think Navy pretty much made the case for why this is both terrible for golf and morally bankrupt.

I think you're missing my point Mac, no golfer has a moral high ground to criticise any other tour on the basis of human rights.

"Buying pro golf" is irrelevant. It has happened in every sport, and there's no outrage. Seems to me it's just that people don't like a change to the status quo. All other arguments they have don't hold water.

[McLaren]

Super

It has happened in other sports and there has been outrage. Just look at the criticism of the ownership of Man Utd, Newcastle, City, PSG or Chelsea. Or in F1 where Haas had to ditch being funded by russians. More and more fans are becoming concerned about where the money comes from.

And even if people didn't care would you condone a state like Saudi Arabia using pro golf to sportswash?


And on "no golfer has a moral high ground to criticise any other tour on the basis of human rights" I don't get this.

What sort of moral high ground do you think you need to criticize Saudi sportswashing? I assume you are going down some sort of hypocrisy route like you do with climate activism. Like if someone uses a product with a petroleum product they can't ask that we try and avoid a climate disaster. In the same way that any professional athlete at the moment can't avoid receiving money from a less than ideal source. In both cases it doesn't mean people can't demand that things get better. Think about what ideal people want rather than what current reality they face.

[super_realist]

Super

It has happened in other sports and there has been outrage. Just look at the criticism of the ownership of Man Utd, Newcastle, City, PSG or Chelsea. Or in F1 where Haas had to ditch being funded by russians. More and more fans are becoming concerned about where the money comes from.

And even if people didn't care would you condone a state like Saudi Arabia using pro golf to sportswash?


And on "no golfer has a moral high ground to criticise any other tour on the basis of human rights" I don't get this.

What sort of moral high ground do you think you need to criticize Saudi sportswashing? I assume you are going down some sort of hypocrisy route like you do with climate activism. Like if someone uses a product with a petroleum product they can't ask that we try and avoid a climate disaster. In the same way that any professional athlete at the moment can't avoid receiving money from a less than ideal source. In both cases it doesn't mean people can't demand that things get better. Think about what ideal people want rather than what current reality they face.

Mac, you still aren't getting it. If you are on the PGA, DP Tour or play WGC events you actively support the regimes you claim to stand against. It's Lewis Hamilton levels of hypocrisy.

Do these golfers play in China, USA, Qatar, UAE, Russia etc? Yes, so why is Saudi Arabia seen as being worse? You telling me they give a toss about Kishogi?

The hackneyed excuse of "I can't do my job without having to go to Qatar or Saudi Arabia" just doesn't wash. Money obviously comes before projecting how earnest they actually are.

All sports people care more about money than anything else. If they didn't we'd see mass boycotts but lo and behold we don't

[incontinentia]

If I was a LIV golf are facing questions on the Saudi human rights record I would simply write it off as cultural differences. They do things differently. We may not agree with it but different cultures should be respected.

[superflyweight]

If I was a LIV golf are facing questions on the Saudi human rights record I would simply write it off as cultural differences. They do things differently. We may not agree with it but different cultures should be respected.

[super_realist]

If I was a LIV golf are facing questions on the Saudi human rights record I would simply write it off as cultural differences. They do things differently. We may not agree with it but different cultures should be respected.

What would you do then? Say how disgusting Saudi Arabia is but continue to play in backwards countries like USA, China, UAE, Qatar etc? You think that makes you look any better?

[Duty281]

If I was a LIV golf are facing questions on the Saudi human rights record I would simply write it off as cultural differences. They do things differently. We may not agree with it but different cultures should be respected.

Why should these backward, pre-medieval cultures be respected?

[superflyweight]

If I was a LIV golf are facing questions on the Saudi human rights record I would simply write it off as cultural differences. They do things differently. We may not agree with it but different cultures should be respected.

What would you do then? Say how disgusting Saudi Arabia is but continue to play in backwards countries like USA, China, UAE, Qatar etc? You think that makes you look any better?

Not a decision I have to make in order to make a living and couldn't say for sure what I would do if it was.  I guess a line has to be drawn somewhere and for some this might be that line  My response is aimed more at the proposed justification which is misjudged, to say the least.  It's not cultural differences, it's violent acts of oppression by a tyrannical regime.  

Putin didn't invade Ukraine because of cultural differences, Roe v Wade wasn't overturned because of cultural differences, and the Chinese government doesn't persecute and commit genocide of the Uyghurs because of cultural differences.    Each of these acts is morally abhorrent and no amount of cultural diversity can justify them.  

For what it's worth, I would also have more time for those defecting to LIV if they said they were doing it for the money instead of some of the other arguments being put forward.  They can't expect not to be criticised for it, but at least they are being honest.

[incontinentia]

Its not just Saudi Arabia. All muslim countries exercise similar practices, albeit to varying degrees. Muslims take a far more literal interpretation of their holy book than western societies do. How did the facilitation of democracy in Iraq/Afghanistan work out for example? 
...And as super says, the USA arent a whole lot better in a lot of ways.

[superflyweight]

Who's the little mug on here that goes around using the muggy little dislike button?

[McLaren]

Mac, you still aren't getting

Super, I get it. You require an unattainable level of purity from anyone involved in activism which leaves you feeling like you can just ignore difficult problems. A small amount of hypocrisy is far preferable to people who do nothing.

You have also been told many times why the Saudi golf league is worse. It is an attempt to move control of top level mens golf from the PGAT, ET and majors and give it to the Saudis. It isn't great that golf has gone to some questionable locations but it would be even worse if every week it was run by one of the most horrific regimes in the world. Again, your purity thinking doesn't allow for this level of distinction. Which by the way is an oddly religious way of looking at the world for a man who claims to be the next coming of Sam Harris.

[McLaren]

Muslims take a far more literal interpretation of their holy book than western societies do. .

USA?

[superflyweight]

Mac, you still aren't getting

Super, I get it. You require an unattainable level of purity from anyone involved in activism which leaves you feeling like you can just ignore difficult problems. A small amount of hypocrisy is far preferable to people who do nothing.

You have also been told many times why the Saudi golf league is worse. It is an attempt to move control of top level mens golf from the PGAT, ET and majors and give it to the Saudis. It isn't great that golf has gone to some questionable locations but it would be even worse if every week it was run by one of the most horrific regimes in the world. Again, your purity thinking doesn't allow for this level of distinction. Which by the way is an oddly religious way of looking at the world for a man who claims to be the next coming of Sam Harris.

Spot on and in addition to purity thinking, it's also binary thinking.

[incontinentia]

If I was a LIV golf are facing questions on the Saudi human rights record I would simply write it off as cultural differences. They do things differently. We may not agree with it but different cultures should be respected.

Why should these backward, pre-medieval cultures be respected?

I thought we're supposed to respect cultural differences nowadays. Hypothetically speaking, if most of the population of Saudi Arabia expressed happiness with how their government deals with criminals, free speech etc, would you say "fair enough, if thats how they want to do things then good luck to them"?

[superflyweight]

If I was a LIV golf are facing questions on the Saudi human rights record I would simply write it off as cultural differences. They do things differently. We may not agree with it but different cultures should be respected.

Why should these backward, pre-medieval cultures be respected?

I thought we're supposed to respect cultural differences nowadays. Hypothetically speaking, if most of the population of Saudi Arabia expressed happiness with how their government deals with criminals, free speech etc, would you say "fair enough, if thats how they want to do things then good luck to them"?

That's one hell of a hypothetical.

[Duty281]

If I was a LIV golf are facing questions on the Saudi human rights record I would simply write it off as cultural differences. They do things differently. We may not agree with it but different cultures should be respected.

Why should these backward, pre-medieval cultures be respected?

I thought we're supposed to respect cultural differences nowadays. Hypothetically speaking, if most of the population of Saudi Arabia expressed happiness with how their government deals with criminals, free speech etc, would you say "fair enough, if thats how they want to do things then good luck to them"?

I'm happy to respect 'cultural differences' that are reasonable and humane. When 'cultural differences' mean the execution of homosexuals and the oppression of women's rights, I'm not so respectful.

And with regards to your hypothetical, probably not if it meant the persecution of minorities. There was probably a time when the majority of the USA population was happy with the segregation of black people, but I wouldn't say 'fair enough, get on with it'.

[McLaren]

Duty

You one of those weirdo right wingers that care a lot about minorities in Muslim countries but think it is wokeness gone mad to worry about them in the UK?

[Duty281]

No.

[incontinentia]

If I was a LIV golf are facing questions on the Saudi human rights record I would simply write it off as cultural differences. They do things differently. We may not agree with it but different cultures should be respected.

Why should these backward, pre-medieval cultures be respected?

I thought we're supposed to respect cultural differences nowadays. Hypothetically speaking, if most of the population of Saudi Arabia expressed happiness with how their government deals with criminals, free speech etc, would you say "fair enough, if thats how they want to do things then good luck to them"?

I'm happy to respect 'cultural differences' that are reasonable and humane. When 'cultural differences' mean the execution of homosexuals and the oppression of women's rights, I'm not so respectful.

And with regards to your hypothetical, probably not if it meant the persecution of minorities. There was probably a time when the majority of the USA population was happy with the segregation of black people, but I wouldn't say 'fair enough, get on with it'.

What about Jewish circumcision of infants? I've always thought guys should have a choice in whether they have a foreskin or not. Doesnt bother me particularly but some might consider it inhumane.

[Duty281]

If I was a LIV golf are facing questions on the Saudi human rights record I would simply write it off as cultural differences. They do things differently. We may not agree with it but different cultures should be respected.

Why should these backward, pre-medieval cultures be respected?

I thought we're supposed to respect cultural differences nowadays. Hypothetically speaking, if most of the population of Saudi Arabia expressed happiness with how their government deals with criminals, free speech etc, would you say "fair enough, if thats how they want to do things then good luck to them"?

I'm happy to respect 'cultural differences' that are reasonable and humane. When 'cultural differences' mean the execution of homosexuals and the oppression of women's rights, I'm not so respectful.

And with regards to your hypothetical, probably not if it meant the persecution of minorities. There was probably a time when the majority of the USA population was happy with the segregation of black people, but I wouldn't say 'fair enough, get on with it'.

What about Jewish circumcision of infants? I've always thought guys should have a choice in whether they have a foreskin or not. Doesnt bother me particularly but some might consider it inhumane.

Very inhumane. Genital mutilation of infants, for non-medical reasons, should certainly be outlawed.

[super_realist]

If I was a LIV golf are facing questions on the Saudi human rights record I would simply write it off as cultural differences. They do things differently. We may not agree with it but different cultures should be respected.

Why should these backward, pre-medieval cultures be respected?

I thought we're supposed to respect cultural differences nowadays. Hypothetically speaking, if most of the population of Saudi Arabia expressed happiness with how their government deals with criminals, free speech etc, would you say "fair enough, if thats how they want to do things then good luck to them"?

I'm happy to respect 'cultural differences' that are reasonable and humane. When 'cultural differences' mean the execution of homosexuals and the oppression of women's rights, I'm not so respectful.

And with regards to your hypothetical, probably not if it meant the persecution of minorities. There was probably a time when the majority of the USA population was happy with the segregation of black people, but I wouldn't say 'fair enough, get on with it'.

What about Jewish circumcision of infants? I've always thought guys should have a choice in whether they have a foreskin or not. Doesnt bother me particularly but some might consider it inhumane.

Absolutely disgusting and completely unnecessary. The only person who should have a say over their tackle is the owner.
It's actually quite a common practice in USA among non Jews too, which actually stems from Kellogg who was a religious nut who wanted people to stop playing the flute solo.

[super_realist]

Mac, you still aren't getting

Super, I get it. You require an unattainable level of purity from anyone involved in activism which leaves you feeling like you can just ignore difficult problems. A small amount of hypocrisy is far preferable to people who do nothing.

You have also been told many times why the Saudi golf league is worse. It is an attempt to move control of top level mens golf from the PGAT, ET and majors and give it to the Saudis. It isn't great that golf has gone to some questionable locations but it would be even worse if every week it was run by one of the most horrific regimes in the world. Again, your purity thinking doesn't allow for this level of distinction. Which by the way is an oddly religious way of looking at the world for a man who claims to be the next coming of Sam Harris.

Spot on and in addition to purity thinking, it's also binary thinking.  

No, i just want them to be consistent in their arguments which they never are.

[super_realist]

If I was a LIV golf are facing questions on the Saudi human rights record I would simply write it off as cultural differences. They do things differently. We may not agree with it but different cultures should be respected.

Why should these backward, pre-medieval cultures be respected?

But USA, China and Qatar are fine? Consistency is all people want.
Yes, Saudi Arabia is a vile regime, but so are the above, yet they get off Scot free.

[Soul Requiem]

The USA isn't on the same level of depravity as Saudi Arabia, the issues within China are well documented whilst Qatar are held in similar regard to SA.

[super_realist]

The USA isn't on the same level of depravity as Saudi Arabia, the issues within China are well documented whilst Qatar are held in similar regard to SA.

Yet these golfers go to all of these countries without batting an eye.
It's like calling yourself a vegan whilst munching on a bacon sandwich.
Saying I'll play in vile regimes as long as they aren't quite as bad as Saudi Arabia hardly does you any favours

[JuliusHMarx]

Wtf kind of stupid argument is that? Every country in the world has something wrong with it that people can be critical of. Maybe no one should ever go anywhere for the sake of meeting your requirements for consistency. Or maybe you could introduce some nuance in your thought processes.

[incontinentia]

If I was a LIV golf are facing questions on the Saudi human rights record I would simply write it off as cultural differences. They do things differently. We may not agree with it but different cultures should be respected.

Why should these backward, pre-medieval cultures be respected?

But USA, China and Qatar are fine? Consistency is all people want.
Yes, Saudi Arabia is a vile regime, but so are the above, yet they get off Scot free.

Yes the Scots too, they've been getting off light for far too long.

[incontinentia]

The virtue-signalling USA dont seem to have any problem selling Saudi Arabia vast amounts of weaponry, or having their Presidents kiss MBS' ass whenever they meet. The double standards in this issue are staggering.

[incontinentia]

Out of interest, will any of you folks be watching the LIV event from Bedminster this week? I've just watched highlights of the previous events, didnt find them hugely compelling but will try to watch more of this one.

[JuliusHMarx]

The virtue-signalling USA dont seem to have any problem selling Saudi Arabia vast amounts of weaponry, or having their Presidents kiss MBS' ass whenever they meet. The double standards in this issue are staggering.

No one is denying the double standards of Western governments that both condemn, then deal with, Saudi Arabia. Money talks and big business rarely has scruples.
However that doesn't mean Western governments are anywhere near as bad as the Saudi regime.

[incontinentia]

The virtue-signalling USA dont seem to have any problem selling Saudi Arabia vast amounts of weaponry, or having their Presidents kiss MBS' ass whenever they meet. The double standards in this issue are staggering.

No one is denying the double standards of Western governments that both condemn, then deal with, Saudi Arabia. Money talks and big business rarely has scruples.
However that doesn't mean Western governments are anywhere near as bad as the Saudi regime.

Agree with you there. The double standards I'm talking about are the widespread criticism of LIV golfers for taking Saudi money, while there no criticism for the US government for doing business with the Saudis. I think Saudi are the #1 buyer of US weapons in the world? How come its ok for a goverment but not individuals...
Also, the PGA tour have negatively impacted smaller tours with their financial clout in the exact same way LIV are undermining the PGA tour now.

[Duty281]

If I was a LIV golf are facing questions on the Saudi human rights record I would simply write it off as cultural differences. They do things differently. We may not agree with it but different cultures should be respected.

Why should these backward, pre-medieval cultures be respected?

But USA, China and Qatar are fine? Consistency is all people want.
Yes, Saudi Arabia is a vile regime, but so are the above, yet they get off Scot free.

China and Qatar are also horrific places.

No valid comparison between the USA and Saudi Arabia. Yes, the USA is a fu**ed up place, but it is a liberal democracy where women and LGBT folk have equal rights.

[McLaren]

Super

You are going to have to explain this "consistency" stance you have on activism because I can't be the only one who thinks it's bonkers.

Are you really saying that if people want to champion a cause all their beliefs and actions have to line up with whatever notion of consistency you have? (As I said above I think you are looking for purity). Eg unless you protest against all regimes you can't have a say on the Saudis?

Are you one of those all lives matter types who don't understand single issue protest?

[incontinentia]

Super

You are going to have to explain this "consistency" stance you have on activism because I can't be the only one who thinks it's bonkers.

Are you really saying that if people want to champion a cause all their beliefs and actions have to line up with whatever notion of consistency you have? (As I said above I think you are looking for purity). Eg unless you protest against all regimes you can't have a say on the Saudis?

Are you one of those all lives matter types who don't understand single issue protest?

Not a popular one there Mac, you got 2 dislikes

[McLaren]

inco

All my posts get dislikes.

[incontinentia]

Luke Donald being tipped as Ryder Cup captain

[McLaren]

Luke Donald being tipped as Ryder Cup captain

Makes sense. Poulter, Westy and Stenson were all probably ahead of him for various reasons but not anymore.

[LadyPutt]

Out of interest, will any of you folks be watching the LIV event from Bedminster this week? I've just watched highlights of the previous events, didnt find them hugely compelling but will try to watch more of this one.

No

[LadyPutt]

Luke Donald being tipped as Ryder Cup captain

Makes sense. Poulter, Westy and Stenson were all probably ahead of him for various reasons but not anymore.

Seems it was between him and Paul Lawrie but as Stenson was picked ahead of him, appears the right call. Bjorn and Monlinari will still be VCs by all accounts.

[super_realist]

Super

You are going to have to explain this "consistency" stance you have on activism because I can't be the only one who thinks it's bonkers.

Are you really saying that if people want to champion a cause all their beliefs and actions have to line up with whatever notion of consistency you have? (As I said above I think you are looking for purity). Eg unless you protest against all regimes you can't have a say on the Saudis?

Are you one of those all lives matter types who don't understand single issue protest?

Mac it's hilarious you don't get this considering you will disavow anyone who doesn't agree 100% with your beliefs.
You've said in the past that you don't like Hitchens due to his stance on Iraq, so you're the one who is looking for purity.

I'm not looking for anything other than consistency. If you are criticising Saudi Arabia for civil rights as many PGA and DP Players seem to be implying, they ought to have similar criticism (and boycotting) of events from USA, China, Qatar, Dubai etc but apparently their abhorrent human rights are fine and only Saudi Arabia is worth being critical of. Why not criticise all of them?

Let's remember that the majority of these sporting hypocrites, if they actually were as right on as virtuous as they thought they were could afford to not attend events in these lands, except we get tired and empty platitudes and excuses from them. If anything, they are guilty of sportwashing too by pretending to care about something they refuse to stand up for. By refusing to criticise countries other than Saudi Arabia you are tacitly approving of them.


Actions speak louder than words, and words are all these idiots have.

I don't actually think these individuals really care, just as I don't think many of these celebrity "activists" genuinely care. They just do it because it looks good for their profile.

[McLaren]

Super

So you are saying that any arguments they make against Saudi are automatically wrong unless they have criticized all the regimes you list equally?

Actions speak louder than words, and words are all these idiots have.

You mean like how Tiger turned down almost a billion dollars to play for the Saudis?

[Soul Requiem]

There wouldn't be similar criticism of the USA because it's civil rights issue are not on the same level, it's a false equivalence argument.

[JuliusHMarx]

Don't forget to include Canada and the UK in the list.

[McLaren]

Super

Seb Vettel just quit f1 in part due to concerns about his contribution to climate change. Can he now become a climate activist?

[JuliusHMarx]

Super

Seb Vettel just quit f1 in part due to concerns about his contribution to climate change. Can he now become a climate activist?

Does he still drive a petrol engine car or ever go on a plane? If so, he remains a hypocrite.

[incontinentia]

Super

Seb Vettel just quit f1 in part due to concerns about his contribution to climate change. Can he now become a climate activist?

Does he still drive a petrol engine car or ever go on a plane? If so, he remains a hypocrite.

Or indeed if he has ever farted. Greta Thunberg holds them in I'm told

[pedro]

Stenson played like a captain

[McLaren]

Stenson just highlighting how uncompetitive the Saudi golf league is. Hasn't contended for years on the regular tours and waltzes in and wins.

[pedro]

It’s a money grab.

Re. the team element: I like the idea that everybody have something to play for. Unlike regular stroke play tournaments, even if you’re in 28th position, you can still be in a situation where every shot counts.

[pedro]

It’s now official. Luke Donald. Not a big surprise, but wonder how much he follows the ET..

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