England Autumn Internationals - MARK II

First topic message reminder :

England squad for autumn Tests:

Forwards: Jamie Blamire (Newcastle), Callum Chick (Newcastle), Jamie George (Saracens), Tom Curry (Sale), Trevor Davison (Newcastle), Nic Dolly (Leicester), Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins), Charlie Ewels (Bath), Ellis Genge (Leicester), Jonny Hill (Exeter), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton), Joe Marler (Harlequins), George Martin (Leicester), Sam Simmonds (Exeter), Kyle Sinckler (Bristol), Will Stuart (Bath), Sam Underhill (Bath)

Backs: Mark Atkinson (Gloucester), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Tommy Freeman (Northampton), George Furbank (Northampton), Max Malins (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester), Raffi Quirke (Sale), Adam Radwan (Newcastle), Harry Randall (Bristol), Henry Slade (Exeter), Marcus Smith (Harlequins), Freddie Steward (Leicester), Manu Tuilagi (Sale), Joe Marchant (Quins), Ben Youngs (Leicester)

In Positions:
1.Marler, Genge
2.George, Blamire, Dolly
3.Sinckler, Stuart, Davison
4.Itoje, Hill
5.Lawes, Ewels
6.Curry, Martin
7.Underhill, Ludlam
8.Dombrandt, Simmonds, Chick

9.Youngs, Randall, Quirke
10.Smith

11.May, Radwan
12.Farrell, Atkinson
13.Tuilagi, Slade
14.Freeman, Marchant
15.Steward, Malins, Furbank
-------------------------------------------------
England v Tonga - 6th November
England v Australia - 13th November
England v South Africa - 20th November

Absolutely no chance but one or two may come through:

15 Jody Devine
14 Ethan Thorne
13 Toby Cousins
12 Archie Kean
11 Frankie Sleightholme
10 Toby Thame
9 Harry Hall

1 Callum Smyth
2 Will Baker
3 Nicholas Tarr
4 Carn Richards-Farr
5 James Bennett
6 George Lavender
7 Ted Reid
8 George Patten (c)

Replacements:
16 Yuijan Zou
17 Sam Ferrari
18 Dave Bennett
19 Aiden Kabi
20 Henry Pollock
21 Kieran Gilmour
22 Tommy Taylor
23 Ewan Baker


Saints U18 to play Sale on Sunday

Looking at who is in and around the current squad, a good start is to look at what XV you can make from the players who will still be in the right sort of age come 2027. I could actually see most of these players still being in contention. The big gap is inside centre, so I've taken a stab at Max Ojomoh there.

Ellis Genge
Jamie Blamire
Kyle Sinckler
Maro Itoje
George Martin
Tom Curry
Jack Kenningham
Alex Dombrandt
Raffi Quirke
Marcus Smith
Adam Radwan
Max Ojomoh
Joe Marchant
Louis Lynagh
Freddie Steward

With a bit of Quins bias, I've assumed that Kenningham and Lynagh will make the step up - and I was tempted to include Fin Baxter ahead of Genge, because from the games he's had he looks like the full package (and Eddie seems to think so too, given he was invited to the training camp).

But starting from there, who do we think will break in?

Some interesting choices poorfour...

Martin at lock...so you think he'll make the move in to the engine room.

I'd like a replacement for Sinkler soon if he's not refinding his top form he showed whilst at Quins. Hayes should be in prime time by then?

No Barbeary?

I restricted myself to players in the current senior squad, or who have at least been in the training squad, where Martin is listed as a lock and Barbeary isn't included. It would be unrealistic to assume that all of those will still be in favour by 2027, not least because the age profile of the squad would be wrong for an RWC, but it's a starting point for discussion.

I'm interested to see how they both develop. I've started to come around to the idea that lock and 6 are a bit more interchangeable than I'd have said they were a year or so ago, mostly because we're starting to see big players who can get around the park and also play a flanker's role at breakdown, so it may be that Martin becomes the heir apparent to Lawes's current role.

It raises a question of who might be the next setpiece lock to emerge. At Quins, Hugh Tizard is starting to come into his own (something Saracens' recruiters have apparently also spotted) - very tidy technically and if he can add enough bulk for international rugby without losing his pace, he's a candidate.

Barbeary I'm still forming a view on. I didn't see much of him before his injury and since coming back I've not really seen what the fuss is about. Carries hard and has a high work rate, but teams have worked out how to contain him so he only really comes into his own when defences started to get tired. I'm not sure of his broader skill set - I've not seen enough of his passing or offloading.

By the way, is it just me or does Raffi Quirke look to anyone else like Andrew Sheridan's Mini Me? Does that merit the nickname Little Ted?

is Tizard 6'4 or 6'5? 6'4 is small for an international lock...

Even Itoje for all his amazing performances is small really for international lock forwards.

i agree with you about Barbeary...i would actually prefer to look at Tom Willis at 8 than Barbeary.

What about Sam Riley at Quins...is he coming through as hoped? Blamire is there at the moment...and im biased as a falcon...but im the first to admit, he does have some work to do on his game still...especially lineouts. Even at the falcons Dean still favours McGuigan.

He's listed as 6'4" on the offy, but he's definitely an inch or two taller than Dombrandt, who's listed as 6'2"-6'5" depending on where you look and not noticeably shorter than Stephan Lewies, who's fairly consistently listed at 6'6". So I'd go with somewhere between 6'5" and 6'6". He's certainly never looked like anything other than a lock.

I think Quins tend to compile their stats when these kids first join the senior academy and never update them.

We've not seen much of Riley this season - I think they are bringing him through slowly because we have Walker (who's been an excellent find now his lineout is settling down), Musk, Head and Gray in the squad as well. Historically we've needed lots of hookers because (Gray apart) they've tended to pick up lots of long term injuries. Musk and Head were each out for nearly a year in the recent past, for instance. I suspect they are using the luxury of having a good roster all fit at the same time to make sure his body is ready for the rigours of the game, but I'd not be surprised to see us lose a couple of the others in the cap-cutting this year and Riley get more game time next year.

Ditto with Baxter - he had some early games when we had injuries to Botta and Els, but is now biding his time behind them and Marler. He was on the injured list for a bit but I think he is fit now.

A few highlights pre injury last year of Alfie Barbeary. He just needs a run of games & he will be in the mix without a doubt.

https://youtu.be/93entpxLtOM

Poorfour wrote:He's listed as 6'4" on the offy, but he's definitely an inch or two taller than Dombrandt, who's listed as 6'2"-6'5" depending on where you look and not noticeably shorter than Stephan Lewies, who's fairly consistently listed at 6'6". So I'd go with somewhere between 6'5" and 6'6". He's certainly never looked like anything other than a lock.

I think Quins tend to compile their stats when these kids first join the senior academy and never update them.

We've not seen much of Riley this season - I think they are bringing him through slowly because we have Walker (who's been an excellent find now his lineout is settling down), Musk, Head and Gray in the squad as well. Historically we've needed lots of hookers because (Gray apart) they've tended to pick up lots of long term injuries. Musk and Head were each out for nearly a year in the recent past, for instance. I suspect they are using the luxury of having a good roster all fit at the same time to make sure his body is ready for the rigours of the game, but I'd not be surprised to see us lose a couple of the others in the cap-cutting this year and Riley get more game time next year.

Ditto with Baxter - he had some early games when we had injuries to Botta and Els, but is now biding his time behind them and Marler. He was on the injured list for a bit but I think he is fit now.

Always liked the look of Walker, I thought he might just propel himself towards England reckoning when he joined Bath, having previously rated him highly at age grade (then again I rated his brother too, and that didn't work out!). I was very disappointed when he picked up that long term injury, and then it never quite seemed to click for him. At 25, he seems to be realising some of that early potential and still has time to push on.

Jack Singleton (30)
Trevor Davison (34)
Harry Elrington (32)
Ellis Genge (31)
Joe Marler (36)
Kyle Sinckler (33)
Will Stuart (31)
Charlie Ewels (31)
Jonny Hill (32)
Maro Itoje (31)
Courtney Lawes (37)
Callum Chick (30)
Sam Simmonds (31)
Sam Underhill (30)
Ben Youngs (37)
Joe Marchant (30)
Henry Slade (33)
Manu Tuilagi (37)

Plus player like Farrell, Ford, the Vunipolas, George, Launchbury and Kruis who may be involved still, but will be heading towards their mid/ late 30s by the time ’27 comes around.

As far as I can see, there are a few units where we could potentially have players locked in with less to worry about Fly half where I think Smith and ( a punt here) Orlando Bailey (Bath) will be around for years. Scrum half and back three, where we have got a number of credible options coming through at the same time. The back-row also looks sorted long term.

We need to blood new talent in the front five and centres (what else is new?) in my opinion.

Cumbrian wrote:
Always liked the look of Walker, I thought he might just propel himself towards England reckoning when he joined Bath, having previously rated him highly at age grade (then again I rated his brother too, and that didn't work out!).  I was very disappointed when he  picked up that long term injury, and then it never quite seemed to click for him.  At 25, he seems to be realising some of that early potential and still has time to push on.  

Adam Jones has deemed him "better than we expected", which is high praise indeed.

I would really like to see Dombrandt get a start in the 6N's (or even a run of games).  He has looked good for Quins and not only with the flashy stuff.  To mind Curry at 8 is a real issue because we lose a world-class open-side and end up with a mediocre 8.

Cumbrian wrote:Jack Singleton (30)
Trevor Davison (34)
Harry Elrington (32)
Ellis Genge (31)
Joe Marler (36)
Kyle Sinckler (33)
Will Stuart (31)
Charlie Ewels (31)
Jonny Hill (32)
Maro Itoje (31)
Courtney Lawes (37)
Callum Chick (30)
Sam Simmonds (31)
Sam Underhill (30)
Ben Youngs (37)
Joe Marchant (30)
Henry Slade (33)
Manu Tuilagi (37)

Plus player like Farrell, Ford, the Vunipolas, George, Launchbury and Kruis who may be involved still, but will be heading towards their mid/ late 30s by the time ’27 comes around.

As far as I can see, there are a few units where we could potentially have players locked in with less to worry about Fly half where I think Smith and ( a punt here) Orlando Bailey (Bath) will be around for years.  Scrum half and back three, where we have got a number of credible options coming through at the same time.  The back-row also looks sorted long term.  

We need to blood new talent in the front five and centres (what else is new?) in my opinion.

Which one? Marcus who's looking settled pretty quickly at international level or Smith the even younger who is looking very settled for Wuss and will be wearing 10 for the England under 20s in the J6N. Flyhalf we are starting to look stacked, makes a nice change.

There's a lot of competition for flyhalf coming through. Alongside Fin Smith there's also Quins' Jamie Benson who I've only seen once but I've been told is a more complete player than Marcus Smith was at the same age.

That said, the elder Smith is not a great deal older than these kids but a heck of a lot more experienced, so it will take a serious effort or a long term injury to displace him. We've not seen the full bag of tricks from him at international level, but even playing more conservatively he has the knack of making the rest of the team play better.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Jack Singleton (30)
Trevor Davison (34)
Harry Elrington (32)
Ellis Genge (31)
Joe Marler (36)
Kyle Sinckler (33)
Will Stuart (31)
Charlie Ewels (31)
Jonny Hill (32)
Maro Itoje (31)
Courtney Lawes (37)
Callum Chick (30)
Sam Simmonds (31)
Sam Underhill (30)
Ben Youngs (37)
Joe Marchant (30)
Henry Slade (33)
Manu Tuilagi (37)

Plus player like Farrell, Ford, the Vunipolas, George, Launchbury and Kruis who may be involved still, but will be heading towards their mid/ late 30s by the time ’27 comes around.

As far as I can see, there are a few units where we could potentially have players locked in with less to worry about Fly half where I think Smith and ( a punt here) Orlando Bailey (Bath) will be around for years.  Scrum half and back three, where we have got a number of credible options coming through at the same time.  The back-row also looks sorted long term.  

We need to blood new talent in the front five and centres (what else is new?) in my opinion.

Which one? Marcus who's looking settled pretty quickly at international level or Smith the even younger who is looking very settled for Wuss and will be wearing 10 for the England under 20s in the J6N. Flyhalf we are starting to look stacked, makes a nice change.

No Sam thats Louie Johnson...

Interesting Mr Healy tonight on Randall.

Can he play for England now...a hesitant yes..is he a long term international..a strong No!

I'd actually agree. He's behind Quirke, Van Poorvliet and even the Saints scrum half in my opinion...

But better than Youngs.

Although to be fair I don't agree.. Youngs is better than Randall.
Randall isn't great in my opinion...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Although to be fair I don't agree.. Youngs is better than Randall.
Randall isn't great in my opinion...

It may be a question of combinations. I thought Randall played well with Smith over the summer, albeit against limited opposition. If (as seems likely) England are going to build their attack around Smith, it’s important to give him a scrum half on his wave length.

That said, what we’ve seen of Smith and Quirke together has been pretty promising.

I suspect Youngs will be with us for a year or 2 more but after he's gone it should be between Quirke and JVP, and if we find someone good enough to dislodge them we'll be very lucky.

Mitchell looked fine in his short cameo although it did come across as him enjoying every minute he had as he's not expecting to get more. I am happy if we do play him again, but he's not going to be first choice outside of a major run of injuries.

Randall is OK but he doesn't seem to inspire the confidence that the others do.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Although to be fair I don't agree.. Youngs is better than Randall.
Randall isn't great in my opinion...

I don't think Randall is great either.

Well at least it appears Marcus Smith is still in Pole for the 10 spot....

Heard he even counter- rucked one of Exeters props...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well at least it appears Marcus Smith is still in Pole for the 10 spot....

Heard he even counter- rucked one of Exeters props...

He did that - got underneath him and drove him right off the ball.

Poorfour wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well at least it appears Marcus Smith is still in Pole for the 10 spot....

Heard he even counter- rucked one of Exeters props...

He did that - got underneath him and drove him right off the ball.

Yeah ive seen it now Poorfour....great effort.

That Kiwi prop is not having a good time over here is he....

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well at least it appears Marcus Smith is still in Pole for the 10 spot....

Heard he even counter- rucked one of Exeters props...

He did that - got underneath him and drove him right off the ball.

Yeah ive seen it now Poorfour....great effort.

That Kiwi prop is not having a good time over here is he....

Iosefa-Scott only has two bench apps in Super Rugby to be fair so he will have been intended as a project for Chiefs. He was never some gun TH signing.

Chiefs would have been planning for Marcus Street to step-up to second choice behind Harry Williams with Sam Nixon and Iosefa-Scott 3rd and 4th choice. Street being injured means they've had to start the squad players more than they will have planned.

Iosefa-Scott looks to me like he could be a terrific substitute similar to how Tigers use Nephi Leatigaga to carry late in the game against tired defences. He's only got a handful of games above Mitre 10 and NPC level though so will take time to make a step-up.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Although to be fair I don't agree.. Youngs is better than Randall.
Randall isn't great in my opinion...

I don't think Randall is great either.

Randall is a fantastic attacking talent but his kicking game is sub par. I'd be surprised if he made the squad, he kicks box kicks out on the full every time I see him play. He'd be fourth choice at best now.

I don't think the combination of him and Smith particularly worked either, they both ran down dead ends Vs I think USA on an occasion. Smith looked more composed in the Autumn (admittedly post Lions Tour which is a great learning opportunity) with Youngs, Quirke or Mitchell. Given Quirke's injury and Mitchell being a little up and down in form it's likely to be Youngs starting, he's been consistently decent for Tigers.

Yeah I agree Youngs will start. Consistently mediocre pass and all.

If we are looking at progressing our game and making the most of Smith and this promising production line of quality back 3 players we have to start looking at that 8 9 10 axis. Dombrandt has to start in the 6 nations, and we need a faster of thought and deed scrum half with a good pass. Quirke has stuck his foot in the door. Mitchell looked good in his cameo and has been the form 9 since.

But yes. I think Youngs will start.

Posted in the wrong thread before but Genge hasn't been cited which I'm a touch surprised at. Thought it looked pretty clear contact in the eye area. After initially poo pooing the hair pull for a red looked that up and it's a red card offence as well. Guess for once the citing panel are looking after Enhlish 6 nations interests?

If we assume that Dombrandt and Smith will be starting (at least eventually) then the priority is to get a scrum half who can do the basics and get on their wavelength.

I remember when Quins picked up Andy Gomarsall - who at the time was on the scrapheap and literally playing Sunday pub rugby just to stay fit - before the 2007 RWC. He made the training camp as 3rd or 4th choice, but sat down with Wilkinson, asked him what he wanted in each situation and then just relentlessly delivered that... and played all the way to the Final.

Smith needs someone who will do that and not try to play a different game. At Quins, they've said that Care manages the game (which I think means the phase to phase tempo, choice of what to do with the ball off the floor etc) while Smith manages the space (what's the big picture, creating space on the pitch to launch particular plays). England need to find a similar balance - and I think the idea of giving Smith slightly more distance to manage the bigger picture is probably a good idea.

England at their 2019 best did something similar with Farrell and Youngs running phases close to the gainline while Ford was responsible for moving the defence around until there was space outside to attack.

Squad announced on the 18th

A week away eh. Surely it'll be difficult for Jones to select anyone still to play a game coming back from injury?

Blamire has barely played a game for us since the AI's...not sure if hes injured or what? Dean tells us FA.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Blamire has barely played a game for us since the AI's...not sure if hes injured or what? Dean tells us FA.

No pay no play?

LCD will be back anyway

No 7&1/2 wrote:A week away eh. Surely it'll be difficult for Jones to select anyone still to play a game coming back from injury?

Farrell is supposed to be back before the end of the month but I'd rather we went without him.

I wouldn't expect much change from the AI squad save some returnees in George and LCD for certain, Faz if he plays for Sarries.

1.Marler, Genge, Rodd
2.LCD, George, ???
3.Sinckler, Stuart, Davison
4.Itoje
5.Hill, Ewels
6.Lawes, Martin
7.Curry, Underhill, Ludlam
8.Dombrandt, Simmonds

9.Youngs, Quirke, Mitchell
10.Smith

11.May, Radwan
12.Tuilagi, Farrell
13.Slade, Marchant
14.Malins, ???
15.Steward

In the AIs we had three locks with Lawes and Martin able to cover. I'd expect similar. Jones, Proudfoot and Cockers all love that lineout option in the back row.

Personally I'd take Ribbans over Ewels. Justin Clegg is an off piste name but a young lock I really rate who maybe doesn't get noticed because he's at Wuss. I'm yet to see any set-piece lock come close to what Kruis offered though and expect him to walk back in next season to be honest.

With Watson injured there's a spot free in the back three. Even with Marchant being a very good wing - I genuinely think Marchant is a quality wing as well as centre rather than a 13 shifted out wider - there's definitely room for another player there. Freeman, Furbank and Lynagh were in the AI training squads. Nowell and Daly are fit again. After Steward and Malins had a strong Autumn that final spot feels like a good dilemma to have.

If Blamire isn't fit then Dolly or Singleton will presumably slip into the squad. Even as a Tigers fan I personally think Singleton has the higher ceiling as an international hooker.

I'm still surprised by Earl being out in the cold. I rate Chick and Kenningham who have been around training squads for instance but to me Earl looks stronger in contact, more dominant in the tackle, better over the ball and offers a point of difference by being rapid for a back row. I can't help but think he offers similar to Simmonds as a support runner whilst being stronger in defence and collisions.

I think Furbank will be there somewhere, especially if Farrell is not fit to start the first game or two. If not, Malins is the only cover for Smith and no 10 on the bench for those games. When was the last time Malins played 10?

Furbank if not a regular is getting a fair bit of time at 10 one one or another and is proving solid enough that Grayson is not in the 23 giving Saints more options in the backs.

If Farrell isn't fit I'd really hope Ford is recalled to the squad for the Six Nations. I think Smith looks a special player and like that he's getting a run but seeing Furbank and Malins covering 10 at international level was depressing in 'friendlies' that didn't count towards a tournament. Using part time fly-halves of their quality 10 cover in the Six Nations when a player of Ford's quality is playing in the Prem just feels futile.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Posted in the wrong thread before but Genge hasn't been cited which I'm a touch surprised at. Thought it looked pretty clear contact in the eye area. After initially poo pooing the hair pull for a red looked that up and it's a red card offence as well. Guess for once the citing panel are looking after Enhlish 6 nations interests?

No contact with the eye, pretty clear from the camera angle on the TV. It's a strike to the face and a hair pull though, definitely thought he was going to get a week or two off having been lucky to escape a red at the time.

England international rugby star is arrested on suspicion of r*** https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-10391429/England-international-rugby-star-arrested-suspicion-r***.html?ito=native_share_article-masthead

Rules out Ewels, Ford, Youngs, Steward and Genge. Serious stuff.

No 7&1/2 wrote:England international rugby star is arrested on suspicion of r*** https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-10391429/England-international-rugby-star-arrested-suspicion-r***.html?ito=native_share_article-masthead

Rules out Ewels, Ford, Youngs, Steward and Genge. Serious stuff.

cr@p - they are being very cagey about details - not even saying where.

Worth mentioning that it could be a former player

True. The 41 year old woman may indicate late 30s early 40s if its a partner. Some inevitable rumours starting on twitter.

Folks - please do not name names on this forum or speculate who it could be. If you see anyone do this please report immediately.

Thanks

Okie dokes. Could be almost anyone tbf.

Kenningham out for 6 months.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Okie dokes. Could be almost anyone tbf.

Kenningham out for 6 months.

Ouch 'neck surgery' He's a young guy so will come back.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Okie dokes. Could be almost anyone tbf.

Kenningham out for 6 months.

Well one particular name is being discussed based on fairly flimsy links in a few places. I'll respect the mods wishes not to mention it here as that's only fair to the person because it would be horrible to be named in regard to something like this if it wasn't you. I suspect people might start ruling themselves out soon though. Well that or the foreign press release the details tomorrow.

Real shame for Kenningham he's been in great form for Quins for a while now but has played a lot of rugby. Perhaps Evans will come back to replace him just in time. I was hoping to see if Kenningham and Evans could combine on the flanks for Quins. Might be next season for that now.

It's a liability issue too Sam - this is a public forum so don't want lawyers contacting us because someone has put a name on here (it has happened in the past).

Im still not getting the hype of Kenningham....

Yes i see theres a repeated name coming up on twitter...

Well innocent until proven guilty isnt it.

Kenningham is a good player. I just think at the moment there are better options. He's still a Newby by forwards standards.

7.5 i just dont see what his point of different is.

I keep hearing engine and lineout.
Well so does lawes, so does George martin, so does many others.