England: Autumn Internationals

GeordieFalcon wrote:SO is Underhill and George Martin genuinely vying for the 6 spot...or is Underhill still the main man?

formerly known as Sam wrote:I think Tonga will be used as a bit of an experiment, maybe some of the Lions will be rested for this one. Good chance to spread the game time around the squad.

Mr Bounce wrote:I am really looking forward to these Autumn Internationals, more so as I am actually going to the Tonga match. I think the England squad has more than a hint of "new" about it.

I am looking forward to seeing who Eddie picks - hoping to see Martin at 6, and Marchant in the centre where he belongs. Would like to see Quirke get a cap, but am somewhat resigned to Ewels somehow getting more.

GeordieFalcon wrote:SO is Underhill and George Martin genuinely vying for the 6 spot...or is Underhill still the main man?

formerly known as Sam wrote: I don't think Simmonds is considered an 8 by Eddie. There's two 8s selected for this squad and that's not including Simmonds.

Sharkey06 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote: I don't think Simmonds is considered an 8 by Eddie. There's two 8s selected for this squad and that's not including Simmonds.

If Simmonds isn't considered an 8, then I am not sure what Eddie thinks he is.  At 7 you have Curry, Ludlam and Underhill and at 6 you have Underhill, Martin and Lawes.

It seems a bit pointless calling Simmonds up unless Eddie is going to look at him at 8, but then again Eddie does have a bit of a reputation for calling up players and not giving them any playing time.  Perhaps I am being cynical, but I can see Eddie not picking Simmonds or Dombrandt for the 6 Nations, saying that having looked at them in training camp they have things they need to work on.  Billy was pretty average for the last 2 seasons, whilst both of them were pulling up trees at club level, yet neither got a look in.  So I get the impression he just doesn't fancy them.  I don't think either of them have done anything in the last few months that they weren't doing for the last couple of years.

lostinwales wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:I am really looking forward to these Autumn Internationals, more so as I am actually going to the Tonga match. I think the England squad has more than a hint of "new" about it.

I am looking forward to seeing who Eddie picks - hoping to see Martin at 6, and Marchant in the centre where he belongs. Would like to see Quirke get a cap, but am somewhat resigned to Ewels somehow getting more.

Scrum half choice is really interesting, with two challengers to Youngs in the squad and another on the sidelines (JVP). I suspect that Quirke won't get capped unless its vs Tonga, and a toss up between Youngs and Randall over who starts.

I also suspect Marchant won't get a look in unless Malins starts as FB. Whatever the rights or wrongs of it we have 2 multi position backs in the squad in Marchant and Malins. One will be on the subs bench and one will either start or not be in the squad at all, and I think Malins is more likely to be involved.

Martin must have a good chance of being involved, although that may be from the subs bench.

8 is also very interesting. Chick must miss out. You would have thought Dombrandt would be in prime position but there may not be as much between him and Simmonds as we'd like to think.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:I am really looking forward to these Autumn Internationals, more so as I am actually going to the Tonga match. I think the England squad has more than a hint of "new" about it.

I am looking forward to seeing who Eddie picks - hoping to see Martin at 6, and Marchant in the centre where he belongs. Would like to see Quirke get a cap, but am somewhat resigned to Ewels somehow getting more.

Scrum half choice is really interesting, with two challengers to Youngs in the squad and another on the sidelines (JVP). I suspect that Quirke won't get capped unless its vs Tonga, and a toss up between Youngs and Randall over who starts.

I also suspect Marchant won't get a look in unless Malins starts as FB. Whatever the rights or wrongs of it we have 2 multi position backs in the squad in Marchant and Malins. One will be on the subs bench and one will either start or not be in the squad at all, and I think Malins is more likely to be involved.

Martin must have a good chance of being involved, although that may be from the subs bench.

8 is also very interesting. Chick must miss out. You would have thought Dombrandt would be in prime position but there may not be as much between him and Simmonds as we'd like to think.

I think that is a little unfair or Furbank who is a very competent 10 as well as a 15 and Freeman who equally adept at 15 or 14. Not that either will be in the match day 23.

Rugby Fan wrote:Reading some of the media reports, and listening to podcasts, it is striking how much Eddie Jones drives some people nuts. Among some of the views expounded:

Jones only selected  fan favourites like Radwan, Dombrandt and Simmons to keep the naysayers happy. He will hardly give them any playing time, and his match day 23 won't look much different from his other teams since the World Cup. They will soon be discarded.

Jones places a lot of store in what he sees at training. Just the other day, he mentioned how he half had a mind to send Radwan home early from one camp, before seeing him switch on, and change his mindset. Squad selection doesn't guarantee anything. Then again, this time, there have been some high profile ommissions. Some of these players will surely get a go. Jones hasn't bowed to popular opinion before, and no-one is currently talking about him facing the risk of the sack.

.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well ive NEVER seen that comment.

Rugby Fan wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well ive NEVER seen that comment.

Listen to the October 18th BBC Rugby Union Weekly Podcast, where Chris Jones and Danny Care talk to Jones. Radwan comes up at the nine minute mark.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p09z1rx0

Rugby Fan wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well ive NEVER seen that comment.

Listen to the October 18th BBC Rugby Union Weekly Podcast, where Chris Jones and Danny Care talk to Jones. Radwan comes up at the nine minute mark.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p09z1rx0

GeordieFalcon wrote:Just listened to that RF, really interesting. Wonder what the problems were initially....

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well ive NEVER seen that comment.

Listen to the October 18th BBC Rugby Union Weekly Podcast, where Chris Jones and Danny Care talk to Jones. Radwan comes up at the nine minute mark.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p09z1rx0

Just listened to that RF, really interesting. Wonder what the problems were initially....

I loved that quote about Bob Dwyer..."Always pick the players with the things you cant coach, because you can coach the other stuff..." So simple and yet so true.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well ive NEVER seen that comment.

Listen to the October 18th BBC Rugby Union Weekly Podcast, where Chris Jones and Danny Care talk to Jones. Radwan comes up at the nine minute mark.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p09z1rx0

Just listened to that RF, really interesting. Wonder what the problems were initially....

I loved that quote about Bob Dwyer..."Always pick the players with the things you cant coach, because you can coach the other stuff..." So simple and yet so true.

First time in camp he might have been to quiet, not demanding the ball etc. Eddie might have given him a nudge and a this is your chance so speak up and make your presence felt type of thing. Eddie isn't one for picking shrinking violets is he.

Owen Slot in The Times wrote:

Eddie Jones: Blazing rows, brutal texts and airport firings – why it’s so hard to work for England rugby coach
Owen Slot speaks to backroom staff and players about why the coach, who led England to their joint worst-ever finish in the Six Nations, is such a hard taskmaster

It was one day last summer that settled it for John Mitchell and led to him becoming the latest coach to leave Eddie Jones’s England.

Mitchell was with the other coaches at the Lensbury Club, where the England team were based for their two summer Test matches. On a day off, he was intending to go and watch his son, Daryl, a professional cricketer who plays for New Zealand and Middlesex.

As Mitchell was leaving, though, he was caught by Jones. Jones asked him where he was going and Mitchell replied: “I’m going to the cricket.” Jones told him: “No, you’re not.” Mitchell’s response was that it was a day off. Jones’s response was to tell Mitchell that, actually, he had some work for him to do.

This stand-off did not go well. The result was that Mitchell did indeed go to the cricket. On July 23, the RFU then released a press statement saying that, after the November series, Mitchell would be leaving his role as England’s defence coach. In fact, Mitchell didn’t even hang on that long; within days, he was in his new post at Wasps.

Mitchell’s departure is just the latest. It may seem strange that a coach, such as Mitchell, at the pinnacle of the game with England, might elect to leave to work in club rugby. With Jones’s England, though, this isn’t unusual at all.

England’s record in the Six Nations earlier this year, where they finished fifth, losing to Scotland, Wales and Ireland, equalled their worst ever in the competition. However, at a time when they would benefit from some continuity in the coaching group, England are just about to start working with their third defence coach in the six years of Jones’s tenure. In the four years up to the 2019 World Cup, they used five different sports psychologists.

In every department, the turnover is high: coaches, doctors, psychologists, physios, analysts. The fact is that the churn of Jones’s staff is unmatched anywhere in the world game and the reason is clear. Working for Jones is a relentlessly intense experience and Jones can be a brutal employer.

One analyst was sacked as the squad were going through Faro airport in Portugal. Dean Benton was recruited from Australia as head of sports science; in one staff meeting, Jones’s ire was such that he sent Benton out of the room, like a naughty schoolboy from class. Benton left and now has a similar role with the Wallabies. Good people are lost this way.

“Verbal abuse, pressure, belittling,” is how one former employee described it.

“Brutal, rude, aggressive,” were the words of one player describing the way Jones treats his staff.

This is another player: “We all know how hard Eddie is and how tough it is. Staff openly talk about it. You can feel the tension in the environment if one of the department heads had just had it in the neck, especially in the medic group. The physio room is the social hub and if they are a bit down, you’d be: ‘Eddie’s on one, is he?’ And they’d be: ‘Yeah yeah.’ ”

Initially staff started disappearing in the summer of 2017, 18 months into Jones’s reign: a coach, an analyst, a psychologist, a senior communications officer. All of this was noted by the players. For a while, the players had a song about this, written by Jonny May, in which they would recall the missing. Soon there were too many to name and, really, it wasn’t funny any more.

In those days, the RFU used to name all the assistant England staff in the Twickenham match-day programmes, but this soon stopped because this just told the story of Jones’s revolving-door policy.

Three things have become clear since The Times started investigating this story.

One: of the multiple sources that we spoke to, even Jones’s staunchest critics spoke of what a great coach he is; they agree that he understands the game as well or better than anyone else they have ever worked with and that the education he provides is unmatched. That is the reason some staff hang on as long as they do.

Two: there are those who argue that, at the top of international sport, tough and unforgiving is how the environment has to be. This is Paul Gustard, who did three years with Jones: “I am sure that there are people that have been unhappy but I am not one of those. He has a certain style and a certain way. That’s him. My experience was very, very positive. I owe a lot to him.”

Three: those who criticise Jones are loath to be mentioned by name. This is because some have signed non-disclosure agreements and others because rugby is a small world and it does no one’s future any good to be outspoken about such a senior, influential figure. “But this needs to be said,” one said. “This story should be told,” said another.

There is another perspective, here, which is Jones’s. He is always looking to improve and that, he believes, means always looking for staff who may be able to do things better than those already in the job.

Furthermore, he doesn’t believe in a comfortable working environment but thinks that you need disruption for teams to move forward. If you can live with being uncomfortable, he says, then you will produce your best work and if you cannot live with it, then international rugby probably isn’t the place for you.

How is he with the players? He had a fearsome reputation before he arrived as England’s head coach but has since acknowledged that the modern generation won’t respond to hard, old-school management methods.

Nevertheless, this is how Dylan Hartley recalled it in his autobiography, The Hurt: “You could never relax into the rhythms of the England camp and enjoy the experience. If you can’t cope, you don’t stay.

“I went through a phase of dreading going away and I know other England players felt similarly . . . we were bonded by the ripples in Eddie’s character and constrained by the ludicrous convention that athletes, like Victorian children, should be seen and not heard.”

Hartley used to relish the times when he could retreat to his room. “Yes, some people hide in their rooms,” another player said. “You speak to the guys from Scotland, Ireland and Wales and they have such good fun. I wish we could be more like that.”

“Everyone has heard the scare stories and you don’t want to get on the wrong side of him,” wrote Mike Brown in his column in The Mail on Sunday, recounting how he once contested an assessment Jones had made of his game and that Jones’s response was a volley of f-words and the end of his England career.

Danny Care, Brown wrote, was also frozen out at the end of 2018 after challenging Jones’s opinion.

Hartley recalls Marland Yarde arriving at England’s Pennyhill base, “a bit bruised and battered”, after driving down from playing a club game: “Eddie greeted him with a bright ‘How are you feeling, mate?’ and the conversation quickly went downhill. ‘Oh, a bit tired.’ ‘Frak off, mate.’ ‘What?’ ‘If you’re tired, Frak off. I don’t want tired players here.’ As you can imagine, their cosy fireside chat echoed around the halls within minutes.”

One player said: “The way he screams at players in training isn’t good. Sometimes it’s almost like he wants to push the player to either snap back — so it’s easier to move them along — or just grind them down to the point of them not wanting to be there.

“Also, the text messages: it’s not good for an athlete in the grind of a season if you come off the pitch from a club game and the first message you see — he’s clearly texted during the game — is telling you you’ve blown an opportunity. It’s basically saying ‘You’re Poopie’ in a one-liner. That’s not good for people’s confidence or wellbeing, especially if you’ve just lost a game or not played as well as you wanted to.

“You just end up worrying about what he’s thinking. In mid-game, I find myself worrying about doing certain things or expressing myself or being able to play with freedom because I’m worried about the message I’m going to get from him.

“I’ve been sat in pre-match food with my club and I’ve got a message telling me I wasn’t going to be selected for the next England squad — when you’re literally about to go and play a game. Can you imagine how mentally tough that is? When we told the other England coaches, they were fuming.”

And that is just the players’ side of it. They all agree that the coaches and the staff have a harder time still. Steve Borthwick was the coach who had the worst of it, burdened with the role of Jones’s long-term punchbag. As Jones’s coaching coordinator, he was regarded as having the toughest job because he had the greatest demands placed on him. The coaches used to refer to those moments, when Jones turns his ire on you, as “getting an Eddie spray”. It was Borthwick who received the most spray. His four-and-a-half year tour of duty is regarded as a heroic feat of endurance.

Borthwick left in the summer of 2020. Then, following a disastrous Six Nations earlier this year, the RFU conducted a review in which the conclusions made no reference to staff turnover or named any coaches as not being up to the mark. A fortnight after the review, though, Simon Amor, the attack coach, had gone and it was announced that Jason Ryles, the highly-rated Australian skills coach, who had been stuck on the other side of the world due to Covid, would not be coming back either. Three months later, after Mitchell had also left, Jones’s four-man team of assistants was down to one.

“He demands a lot from people,” said one former staff member, “and the question is: is it too much? Does it adversely affect their confidence and enthusiasm? Eddie’s is quite a tough school. The Aussie banter is bone deep; is it meant to hurt or to build character?

“For me, the line was crossed too many times. It becomes all about self-preservation; you keep your head down to survive. The texts to me overstepped the line. I’ve saved some of them. He would be derogatory about other coaches in texts to me too.” Another said: “It was an intense environment. Some people last and enjoy it, others make a different decision. I felt it wasn’t sustainable.”

Some also noted Jones’s dismissiveness of the English, which is strange, given they are his employers and his team. “I always felt there was a slight hatred to the English,” one former staff member said, “references to what we were like as a country. We’re this, we’re that.”

In his own autobiography, Jones writes that: “The Japanese and the English are very similar in that there is always a facade of politeness to their interaction . . . there is no doubt that, beneath the surface, the English and the Japanese both love to bitch about everyone around them.”

With the England team, in particular, Jones is wary of the private-school core of the side and is concerned that the players have had it too easy and that a system is in place where the financial rewards come so quickly to them in the professional game that it could dull their appetite.

“He would reference the English a lot,” one player said, explaining that Jones was concerned about players being distracted by spending time doing commercial work. “Then we would always see him doing it — especially before the World Cup. You would think: hang on, you always bang on about only focusing on England, but you are doing that [other work]. Contradictory.”

Other coaches say that all the hard work, long hours and relentlessness might be worthwhile if there was a light side too. Jones can be funny and excellent company, but rarely when he is on duty.

On the other hand, there are those who believe in his methods. When Gustard left Jones’s set-up in 2018 to join Harlequins, it seemed a strange move, coming only a year before the World Cup. Yet Gustard says that, for family reasons, he wanted a job with less time away from home.

“It wasn’t that I didn’t enjoy working for England,” he said. “The learning with Eddie was immense. There was no falling out. I have nothing but admiration for Eddie.

“Almost everyone would say that he is the deepest-thinking coach you’ll come across. He is the one person that continually looks how he can change the game. He is the most proactive in asking questions and challenging the status quo.

“Without doubt, he challenges you and that can make things uncomfortable. There were times when we had strong discussions. Without doubt, feedback was constant, daily, twice a day at times and Eddie doesn’t mince words. Instead of saying things like I would in 20 words, he might say it in three and [get] straight to the point.

“We had an expression with England called ‘critical candour’. Be candid about your opinion. That sits uneasily with some people; with me, I understood it and, for the most part, responded positively to it.”

These are now crucial times for England. They are two years out from the World Cup and, after the fallout of last summer, Jones has another new coaching team assembling: a new group who have got to get to know each other, work out how to work best with each other and how to get England to the top of the world.

England are thus charging on in the same manner: changing everything around Jones but never touching Jones himself. At no point, in the conclusions to the RFU’s post-2021 Six Nations review, was there any reflection upon the environment that Jones creates for his coaches to work in. Neither did they question Jones himself. While the team around him are expendable (and therefore expensive), Jones is the one constant who appears to have the firm backing of his employers. He is a hugely convincing advocate. Whenever his stewardship looks set to hit the rocks, he manages to convince the RFU that he can steer them to safety.

The RFU thus remains convinced that he is the right man. Yesterday, in response to this article, an RFU spokeswoman said: “Eddie is widely regarded as one of the leading international rugby coaches in the world. International coaching in the elite game requires a unique super high-performance, competitive environment and the demands of this can be challenging.

“There are many coaches and players who have worked with Eddie that speak very highly of him, his commitment and work ethic, and value the experience. While the demands of an international environment are not for everyone, many have gained from Eddie’s knowledge and experience and furthered their career as a result of learning from him. Steve Borthwick has worked with Eddie in a number of roles since 2007 and he was part of the England coaching team with Eddie for five years; they continue to have a strong relationship and there are many other examples of long-standing relationships. Eddie visited Steve and Leicester Tigers every four weeks over the summer and describes Steve’s coaching as outstanding.”

But serious questions remain. This is Jones’s third group of coaches since he started. He needs to build continuity, but will they all actually last to the World Cup or will there be more casualties along the way? The one constant is that while their jobs are always on the line, Jones’s is not.

lostinwales wrote:Obano has done his ACL so we won't be seeing him for England for a while (if ever)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/59079491

BamBam wrote:There’s a very interesting read on Jones in the Times today..

GeordieFalcon wrote:Quite an Article....im surprised Jones hasnt had a heart attack going on with that stress etc.

lostinwales wrote:Obano has done his ACL so we won't be seeing him for England for a while (if ever)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/59079491

Be interesting to read the article on Jones. I am very struck by how players he has 'apparently' fallen out with always seem to have good things to say about him, and that he is obviously close to Marler, who can't always be easy to manage, is striking. There is a definite edge there though.

Rugby Fan wrote:

BamBam wrote:There’s a very interesting read on Jones in the Times today..

Thanks for posting the piece. Echoes there of GB rowing's issues with Jurgen Grobler. Some thought he drove high standards, while others felt abused. The key question for the RFU is whether anything crosses the line on moral or legal grounds. You hope they woud have satisfied themselves on those counts.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Quite an Article....im surprised Jones hasnt had a heart attack going on with that stress etc.

He had a stroke in 2013.

Poorfour wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Obano has done his ACL so we won't be seeing him for England for a while (if ever)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/59079491

Be interesting to read the article on Jones. I am very struck by how players he has 'apparently' fallen out with always seem to have good things to say about him, and that he is obviously close to Marler, who can't always be easy to manage, is striking. There is a definite edge there though.

Shame for Obano. He doesn't seem to have much luck with injuries.

I was going to post about Marler. I don't think he is difficult to manage. In fact, I think he lives up exactly to what Eddie says he demands. Twice now he's told Eddie that he's not putting himself through a tour or a tournament because he doesn't feel he can give everything he has to give. Twice he's come back and said "I'm ready to go again.". Also, I strongly suspect that Marler is as immune as a player gets to Eddie's style. If anyone can laugh it off, it's him. From his autobiography you get the feeling that Eddie respects him because he's honest about where he is physically and mentally, but can also take a joke or prank at his own expense and give as good as he gets. Being the best setpiece and defensive prop available to England can't hurt, either.

It'll be interesting to see how some of the new batch adapt to Eddieland. Smith in particular is going to be a litmus test. Eddie needs to find the right balance between pushing him to improve but not pushing so hard that he goes into his shell. I hope they are able to find a balance.

BamBam wrote:From the article, I got the impression that he likes his players challenging him, but not so much his coaching staff

Sharkey06 wrote:

BamBam wrote:From the article, I got the impression that he likes his players challenging him, but not so much his coaching staff

Sorry but I don't agree with that.  Mike Brown was chucked out of the squad I believe because he stood up to Jones and Jones didn't like it.  A couple of players having a spat happens all the time and isn't a reason to jettison them.  I think Jones doesn't like players who challenge him - I am thinking of the likes of Danny Cipriani, Danny Care, etc - who want to play progressive rugby.  Jones strikes me as someone who is totally controlling and who won't pick players who won't do things his way.

I have said before that there is clearly something wrong in the England setup with the number of coaches who have left.  In my job if a partner lost half as many key staff as Eddie did, then serious questions would be asked.  If we had won the world cup in 2019 you might understand where he was coming from, but we didn't.  Similarly, I think based on the last 2 years we have no chance of winning the 2023 world cup.  We have lots of exciting players, half of whom never get near an Enland squad or if they do then they are not played, or played out of position, or told to play some stupid kick 90% of the time game plan.  For me Eddie is 100% a case of the Emperor's New Clothes - "I am really clever and the best coach in the world and if you believe in me then England are going to be the best team in the world".

Sharkey06 wrote:On a rant here, but I would be interested to hear from anyone who wishes to defend Eddie's decision to pick Jamie Blamire and Nic Dolly in his England squad off the back of a couple of substitute appearances for their clubs ahead of more seasoned players like Jamie George, Jack singleton, Jack Walker, Gabriel Oghre, Tom Dunne, etc (yes I know Jamie George has now been called up due to injury to Luke Cowan-Dickie).

Personally I see it as a selection based on BT Sport highlights which is a real slap in the face for players who have done it for a season or more at club level.  i appreciate as has been said above Eddie puts little store in club form, as he clearly knows more than the rest of us.

Sharkey06 wrote:On a rant here, but I would be interested to hear from anyone who wishes to defend Eddie's decision to pick Jamie Blamire and Nic Dolly in his England squad off the back of a couple of substitute appearances for their clubs ahead of more seasoned players like Jamie George, Jack singleton, Jack Walker, Gabriel Oghre, Tom Dunne, etc (yes I know Jamie George has now been called up due to injury to Luke Cowan-Dickie).

Personally I see it as a selection based on BT Sport highlights which is a real slap in the face for players who have done it for a season or more at club level.  i appreciate as has been said above Eddie puts little store in club form, as he clearly knows more than the rest of us.