Premiership Round 9

Not sure why most of the games are on the Friday night, or if the internationals will be back.

Friday 26th all 19:45
Bath v Exeter Chiefs
Bristol v Northampton Saints
Newcastle Falcons v Worcester Warriors
Wasps v Gloucester

Saturday 27th 15:00
Harlequins v London Irish

Sunday 28th 15:00
Saracens V Sale

Newcastle Falcons team to face Worcester Warriors (Friday, 7.45pm, Kingston Park Stadium)

15 Mike Brown,
14 Adam Radwan,
13 George Wacokecoke,
12 Pete Lucock,
11 Ben Stevenson,
10 Joel Hodgson,
9 Louis Schreuder;

1 Adam Brocklebank,
2 George McGuigan,
3 Trevor Davison,
4 Greg Peterson,
5 Sean Robinson,
6 Philip van der Walt,
7 Will Welch (captain),
8 Carl Fearns.

Replacements: 16 Jamie Blamire, 17 Kyle Cooper, 18 Mark Tampin, 19 Callum Chick, 20 Gary Graham, 21 Sam Stuart, 22 Will Haydon-Wood, 23 Tom Penny.

Worcester Warriors:
15 Jamie Shillcock,
14 Alex Hearle,
13 Francois Venter (co-captain),
12 Ashley Beck,
11 Duhan van der Merwe,
10 Fin Smith,
9 Gareth Simpson,

1 Ethan Waller,
2 Scott Baldwin,
3 Jay Tyack,
4 Matt Garvey,
5 Andrew Kitchener,
6 Kyle Hatherell,
7 Ted Hill (co-captain),
8 Sione Vailanu.

Replacements: 16 Niall Annett, 17 Marc Thomas, 18 Christian Judge, 19 Joe Batley, 20 Sam Lewis, 21 Will Chudley, 22 Billy Searle, 23 Oli Morris.

Pretty hand Falcons side that. Could be another long day at the office for Worcester even with their huge backrow. Shame Haydon-Wood isn't starting so we could see the two promising youngsters going head to head.

Lawrence injured?

Bath Exeter

Bath: De Glanville; Rokoduguni, Joseph, Ojomoh, Muir; Bailey, B Spencer; Boyce, Dunn, Stuart, McNally, Ewels (capt), Reid, Underhill, Bayliss

Replacements: du Toit, Cordwell, Rae, W Spencer, Ellis, Simpson, Cipriani, McConnochie

Exeter: Hogg; Nowell, Slade, Whitten, O'Flaherty; H Skinner, J Maunder; Hepburn, Yeandle (capt), Iosefa-Scott, S Skinner, Lonsdale, Ewers, Kirsten, S Simmonds

Replacements: Innard, Moon, Williams, Armand, Capstick, S Maunder, J Simmonds Hendrickson

No rest for the internationals

Brzzle - Saints

Bristol: C Piutau; Fricker, O'Conor, Leiua, Purdy; Sheedy, Uren; Woolmore, Kerr, Lahiff, Joyce, Vui, Jeffries, Heenan (capt), Harding.

Replacements: Capon, Y Thomas, Kloska, Hawkins, D Thomas, Whiteley, Bedlow, Adeolokun.

Northampton: Furbank; Freeman, Proctor, Dingwall, Skosan; Biggar, Mitchell; Waller, Fish, Hill, Ribbans, Moon, Lawes, Ludlam (capt), Augustus.

Replacements: Matavesi, Iyogun, Carey, Ratuniyarawa, Wilkins, James, Hutchinson, Gillespie.

Pests vs Inbreds

Barbeary on the bench

Wasps: Crossdale, Kibirige, Bassett, Le Bourgeois, Watson, Umaga, Porter; Hislop, Oghre, Toomaga-Allen, Fifita, Stooke, Shields (c), Young, Willis.

Replacements: Frost, Reid, Millar-Mills, De Chaves, Carr, Barbeary, Hougaard, Gopperth.

Gloucester: Moyle, Thorley, Twelvetrees, Atkinson, May, Hastings, Meehan; Rapava-Ruskin, Singleton, Gotovtsev, Alemanno, Davidson, Clarke ,Ludlow (c), Clement.

Replacements: Socino, Ford-Robinson, Balmain, Thomas, Reid, Chapman, Kveseladze, Evans.

Saints have a terrific back line with a lot of speed across the pitch. Probably Saints best back line. But clearly the front row is a problem.

Changing the subject, no I know one seems to have an idea why there are four game on today. Anyone can offer something here?

doctor_grey wrote:Saints have a terrific back line with a lot of speed across the pitch.  Probably Saints best back line.  But clearly the front row is a problem.

Changing the subject, no I know one seems to have an idea why there are four game on today.  Anyone can offer something here?

I would say that it's to avoid a clash with the Baabaas - but then they've put a Quins home game on at exactly the same time. Best guess is that they fired the scheduler and this was a final act of revenge on the rugby watching public before being bundled out of the door.

I'd assumed that if nothing else the local authority wouldn't stand for two games at the same time, so we've got tickets for both. My current thinking is that I'll go to the Quins game and then nip across the road to watch the Ladies' portion of the double header.

Waterloo Station is going to be a mess.

Quins - LI

The messiah gets the weekend off

Harlequins: Green; Beard, Northmore, Esterhuizen, Murley; Allan, Care; Marler, Walker, Collier, Lamb, Lewies (capt), J Chisholm, Kenningham, Lawday.

Replacements: Musk, Garcia Botta, Kerrod, Tizard, Taulani, Gjaltema, Edwards, Jones.

London Irish: Parton; Rowe, Rona, Van Rensburg, Hassell-Collins; Jackson, Phipps; Goodrick-Clarke, Creevy, Hoskins, Coleman, Simmons, Rogerson (capt), Pearson, Cracknell.

Replacements: Willemse, Dell, Parker, Mafi, Tuisue, White, Jennings, Williams.

Saracens - Sale

Why on earth Saracens squad is named this way (although it makes sense in a 1-15 way) I have no idea.

Saracens: M. Vunipola, Lewis, Koch, Itoje, Swinson, Isiekwe, Wray (cc), B. Vunipola, Davies, Goode (cc), Segun, Tompkins, Lozowski, Maitland, Malins.

Replacements: Pifeleti, Barrington, Clarey, McFarland, Earl, Van Zyl, Morris, Lewington.

Sale: Hammersley, McGuigan, S. James, J.V. Rensburg, Roebuck, MacGinty, Quirke, Rodd, V.D. Merwe, Schonert, JL. Du Preez, De Jager, Ross (c), B. Curry, D. Du Preez.

Replacements: Ashman, Harrison, Oosthuizen, JP Du Preez, T. Curry, Warr, R. Du Preez, L. James.

Interesting that with 3 players in the squad capable of playing 10, Sarries have gone with Goode. Could be a really brutal encounter, though.

doctor_grey wrote:Saints have a terrific back line with a lot of speed across the pitch.  Probably Saints best back line.  But clearly the front row is a problem.

Changing the subject, no I know one seems to have an idea why there are four game on today.  Anyone can offer something here?

I thought the front row was holding up pretty well this season, Waller is still solid if not aggressive, Hill is getting back to the sort of form he had a few years ago. Fish is okay until the lineout when he seems like "a Fish out of the water". If he still has problems, Matavesi is pretty solid and can at least throw straight.

There is some power in that backrow, three excellent ball carriers, lets hope that the half backs get a chance to use them in a little space as all are pretty quick as well.

Apart from Dingwall, that is an all international backline, in more ways than one, England, Wales, Australia and South Africa all represented, with quick ball they could tear holes in any defense and of course a Scot on the bench. If we get a decent lead, I would like to see young Gillespie get a run, he is blindingly quick. Furbank to 10 to give Biggar a break after the AIs and Freeman to 15. That would be a super attacking backline with Furbs at 10.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Saints have a terrific back line with a lot of speed across the pitch.  Probably Saints best back line.  But clearly the front row is a problem.

Changing the subject, no I know one seems to have an idea why there are four game on today.  Anyone can offer something here?

I thought the front row was holding up pretty well this season, Waller is still solid if not aggressive, Hill is getting back to the sort of form he had a few years ago. Fish is okay until the lineout when he seems like "a Fish out of the water". If he still has problems, Matavesi is pretty solid and can at least throw straight.

There is some power in that backrow, three excellent ball carriers, lets hope that the half backs get a chance to use them in a little space as all are pretty quick as well.

Apart from Dingwall, that is an all international backline, in more ways than one, England, Wales, Australia and South Africa all represented, with quick ball they could tear holes in any defense and of course a Scot on the bench.  If we get a decent lead, I would like to see young Gillespie get a run, he is blindingly quick. Furbank to 10 to give Biggar a break after the AIs and Freeman to 15. That would be a super attacking backline with Furbs at 10.

Lots of talk elsewhere that Biggar may be carrying an injury. Is it a concern that they are still starting him if he's not fully fit?

lostinwales wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Saints have a terrific back line with a lot of speed across the pitch.  Probably Saints best back line.  But clearly the front row is a problem.

Changing the subject, no I know one seems to have an idea why there are four game on today.  Anyone can offer something here?

I thought the front row was holding up pretty well this season, Waller is still solid if not aggressive, Hill is getting back to the sort of form he had a few years ago. Fish is okay until the lineout when he seems like "a Fish out of the water". If he still has problems, Matavesi is pretty solid and can at least throw straight.

There is some power in that backrow, three excellent ball carriers, lets hope that the half backs get a chance to use them in a little space as all are pretty quick as well.

Apart from Dingwall, that is an all international backline, in more ways than one, England, Wales, Australia and South Africa all represented, with quick ball they could tear holes in any defense and of course a Scot on the bench.  If we get a decent lead, I would like to see young Gillespie get a run, he is blindingly quick. Furbank to 10 to give Biggar a break after the AIs and Freeman to 15. That would be a super attacking backline with Furbs at 10.

Lots of talk elsewhere that Biggar may be carrying an injury. Is it a concern that they are still starting him if he's not fully fit?

I agree if he is, but with Grayson and Furbank as alternatives I cannot see them risking him if he is not up to scratch.

Biggar seems to have been carrying some sort of niggle for a while. Struggled pre Lions Tour, didn't finish the Lions Tour, off at half time in the East Midlands Derby there's always strapping and he's not playing his absolute best. Slightly reminiscent of Ford last season who was getting through games but not ripping it up, a summer off has done wonders for him.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Saints have a terrific back line with a lot of speed across the pitch.  Probably Saints best back line.  But clearly the front row is a problem.

Changing the subject, no I know one seems to have an idea why there are four game on today.  Anyone can offer something here?

I thought the front row was holding up pretty well this season, Waller is still solid if not aggressive, Hill is getting back to the sort of form he had a few years ago. Fish is okay until the lineout when he seems like "a Fish out of the water". If he still has problems, Matavesi is pretty solid and can at least throw straight.

There is some power in that backrow, three excellent ball carriers, lets hope that the half backs get a chance to use them in a little space as all are pretty quick as well.

Apart from Dingwall, that is an all international backline, in more ways than one, England, Wales, Australia and South Africa all represented, with quick ball they could tear holes in any defense and of course a Scot on the bench.  If we get a decent lead, I would like to see young Gillespie get a run, he is blindingly quick. Furbank to 10 to give Biggar a break after the AIs and Freeman to 15. That would be a super attacking backline with Furbs at 10.

Lots of talk elsewhere that Biggar may be carrying an injury. Is it a concern that they are still starting him if he's not fully fit?

I agree if he is, but with Grayson and Furbank as alternatives I cannot see them risking him if he is not up to scratch.

Looking at the quality from 4-15, all we need is to up the front row just a tad.  Maybe it is just something 'Fishy' about it at lineout time.

And I agree (and sorry to not include your comment Sam) but I do think Biggar should have some time off to get fully right.  Put Furby at 10 and watch them run like a pack of wild hyenas scenting a wounded Bear (like what I did there?).....

Apparently the weather is too bad even for Newcastle. Maybe they have taken pity on Worcester but that game is off

Saints are settling down after a rough start.  Two tries and two pens before halftime is not too bad.  But Bristol just a try behind.  Unless Saints give it up right before the half....

Never mind, Bristol put-in on Saints 5. And Saints drive straight through their scrum to earn the pen and end the half. Real power. Just the reverse of what I was worried about....

lostinwales wrote:Apparently the weather is too bad even for Newcastle. Maybe they have taken pity on Worcester but that game is off

Only until tomorrow I believe. Must be bad if the Geordies think the weather is to bad to play. During that big storm "The Beast from the East" a few years ago I heard the Geordie girls were still out on the town in their short skirts and bare legged. They bread them tough up there.

Looks like Barbeary is carrying on from where he was before the injury. Scores 4 minutes after getting on the pitch.

Saints front row looks...........great now. I think this is a figment of my imagination or a flashback to an earlier time.

And Freeman and Furby are terrific today.

Solid win as it turns out. But still too many errors.

Last night, Saints front row was a thing of beauty, not something we have said much recently. And, nothing 'Fishy' going 11 for 11 in the lineouts.

Paul Hill seemingly coming back to his snarly, surly, opposition-eating, gazelle-like running best. Great unders line for his try. Looked like a centre.

And Lewis Ludlum, how good is this bloke?  In contact his legs never stop moving, whether taking the ball in, driving through making tackles, at the breakdown, or moving without the ball.  So many times simply in the right place and closes down a channel so the opposition has to move the point of attack away. Or in support when Saints have the ball.  I think the longer and messier his hair gets the better he is!

doctor_grey wrote:Last night, Saints front row was a thing of beauty, not something we have said much recently.  And, nothing 'Fishy' going 11 for 11 in the lineouts.  

Sounds like a strong performance but it was Bristol with no Sinckler and Afoa. If those two are missing their scrum goes quickly into reverse.

100% lineout is nothing to be sniffed at though.

It is good to hear that Hill is coming back into form, Stuart hasn't been convincing recently and Heyes picked up a mystery injury in pre season. Need more competition at tighthead for England and Hill's mobility and good scrum technique make him an interesting option.

doctor_grey wrote:And Lewis Ludlum, how good is this bloke?  In contact his legs never stop moving, whether taking the ball in, driving through making tackles, at the breakdown, or moving without the ball.  So many times simply in the right place and closes down a channel so the opposition has to move the point of attack away.  Or in support when Saints have the ball.  I think the longer and messier his hair gets the better he is!

Its a real shame he has not got more caps, although the competition at 6 and 7 is fierce.

Totally agree with the good Dr. Grey about Ludlam, he never stops, he just looks so uncoordinated. If the theory about his hair is correct, perhaps he is related to Samson, he has routes in Lebanon I believe.

Hill looked very good, both at scrum time and in the loose, becoming a serious carrier now. Manny Iyogun came on and first scrum smashed back his side a good metre, the TH did not know what hit him when the shove came on. Just about every other scrum became a penalty such was Saints domination. Even Waller looked good.

Mitchell is turning into one hell of a SH, his pass is quick enough to give Bigger time on the ball and his sniping and support play are fantastic, laid on two tries yesterday.

As a runner Freeman is something else, he just has that silky smooth look to his running you often see on smaller sprinters, his change of pace or direction is effortless.

Where has Lawes suddenly developed these soft hands and sense of timing, his late pass to Mitchell having drawn in the second defender to create the hole for Furbank's try was a thing of beauty.

Watching Saracens-Sale: Unbelievable mindless red card by Byron McGuigan. He totally lost his cool. I'm sure it will be on You Tube very soon, around the 45th minute.

doctor_grey wrote:Watching Saracens-Sale:  Unbelievable mindless red card by Byron McGuigan.  He totally lost his cool.  I'm sure it will be on You Tube very soon, around the 45th minute.  

It was mindless. Have sympathy on the second throw because Isiekwe pushes him and he drags Tompkins with him into another throw.

Lot of shouting and antagonising from both sides beforehand including Maitland getting a penalty right before for screaming in Akker VDM's face after getting him into touch. Very chippy game

Thought AH may have had a point about the tackle into touch being illegal as it was around the neck - if a pen try had been given none of the mindless stupidity that happened a bit later would have occurred.

doctor_grey wrote:Watching Saracens-Sale:  Unbelievable mindless red card by Byron McGuigan.  He totally lost his cool.  I'm sure it will be on You Tube very soon, around the 45th minute.  

I'd be interested to know what Tompkins said to him because he went from normal to full red mist very quickly. If it's not verbals and a head pat that's set him off he's a moron. 

Hazel, yeah he gets pushed into the second throw a bit but think he was lining it up anyway.

Something had to have popped his cork out of the bottle. I guess we will probably find out at his hearing. If it is something Tompkins said, then McGuigan will spend the rest of his career being wound up by everyone and his mother.

Can't understand how it had something to do with the play before - and I agree with Healey that Maitland's tackle on Akker van der Merwe was around the neck and should have been yellow. Neither Tompkins or McGuigan were directly involved.

It was a seatbelt tackle by Maitland, could have well been a penalty try. Had Quirke not got caught in two minds and passed between players before both incidents Sale would have walked over.

The Sale error count and discipline was poor throughout. Can't keep giving a team like Sarries chances and let offs like that.

Just echo the comments. Should have been a penalty try but then what on earth is going through his mind. Completely lost it. Fully deserved red.


And how long before wr decide they need to tweak that ruck law.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Where has Lawes suddenly developed these soft hands and sense of timing, his late pass  to Mitchell having drawn in the second defender to create the hole for Furbank's try was a thing of beauty.

Now we know why in the Springbok match England had the 6:2 split on the bench with no apparent cover for Marcus Smith. He was already on the pitch at blindside flanker....

formerly known as Sam wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Last night, Saints front row was a thing of beauty, not something we have said much recently.  And, nothing 'Fishy' going 11 for 11 in the lineouts.  

Sounds like a strong performance but it was Bristol with no Sinckler and Afoa. If those two are missing their scrum goes quickly into reverse.

100% lineout is nothing to be sniffed at though.

It is good to hear that Hill is coming back into form, Stuart hasn't been convincing recently and Heyes picked up a mystery injury in pre season. Need more competition at tighthead for England and Hill's mobility and good scrum technique make him an interesting option.

Sam,

How much of this is the poor coaching set up at Bath now. Surely they need a change and genuine coaching will revitalize Stuart, Obano (when he returns) and many others...even Underhill...

GeordieFalcon wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Last night, Saints front row was a thing of beauty, not something we have said much recently.  And, nothing 'Fishy' going 11 for 11 in the lineouts.  

Sounds like a strong performance but it was Bristol with no Sinckler and Afoa. If those two are missing their scrum goes quickly into reverse.

100% lineout is nothing to be sniffed at though.

It is good to hear that Hill is coming back into form, Stuart hasn't been convincing recently and Heyes picked up a mystery injury in pre season. Need more competition at tighthead for England and Hill's mobility and good scrum technique make him an interesting option.

Sam,

How much of this is the poor coaching set up at Bath now. Surely they need a change and genuine coaching will revitalize Stuart, Obano (when he returns) and many others...even Underhill...

If I could simply point out what's going wrong at Bath I'd be doing that sweet consultancy job instead of Griffiths. Well to be fair I could have probably come up with the hugely insightful suggestion of "hire a defence coach" as a means to stop leaking tries.

Stuart I'm just confused by. I didn't really rate him that highly pre Covid, big lad who threw his weight around but not much more, but after the resumption there was a real step up in his game. I thought he was maturing into a really powerful tighthead (right age for it) and Sinckler would have some genuine competition. However, at the end of last season it went a bit wrong for Bath with injuries and suspensions which seems to have carried on into this season. Stuart just looks big and lethargic, he could do with maybe losing a few kgs and upping his workrate, last season we saw a really good carrying game especially close to the line but now he isn't much of a threat. He's the right age to kick on again, still young for a prop but he does need to do something.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Watching Saracens-Sale:  Unbelievable mindless red card by Byron McGuigan.  He totally lost his cool.  I'm sure it will be on You Tube very soon, around the 45th minute.  

I'd be interested to know what Tompkins said to him because he went from normal to full red mist very quickly. If it's not verbals and a head pat that's set him off he's a moron. 

Hazel, yeah he gets pushed into the second throw a bit but think he was lining it up anyway.

McGuigan totally lost it and was an idiot.

However both Maitland and Tomkins stood over Sale players prone on the floor shouting at them.
I am pretty sure it wasn't inviting them around for tea.
This sort of behaviour has to be punished - Saracens are the worse offenders by far

geoff999rugby wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Watching Saracens-Sale:  Unbelievable mindless red card by Byron McGuigan.  He totally lost his cool.  I'm sure it will be on You Tube very soon, around the 45th minute.  

I'd be interested to know what Tompkins said to him because he went from normal to full red mist very quickly. If it's not verbals and a head pat that's set him off he's a moron. 

Hazel, yeah he gets pushed into the second throw a bit but think he was lining it up anyway.

McGuigan totally lost it and was an idiot.

However both Maitland and Tomkins stood over Sale players prone on the floor shouting at them.
I am pretty sure it wasn't inviting them around for tea.
This sort of behaviour has to be punished - Saracens are the worse offenders by far

Oh yes the unsportsmanlike conduct was not very pleasant and hasn't been for a while quite frankly when it comes to Sarries. There's a lot of whooping in the faces of the opposition if they concede a penalty or make an error. Tompkins pat on the head should and maybe would have been reviewed what with Maitland already penalised for unsportsmanlike conduct but the nature of the retaliation from McGuigan was just too excessive.

McGuigan always seems to be on the edge. Sarries players probably targeted him knowing he is a loose canon.

Sanderson say McGuigan has UFC as a hobby. I am not sure that is helpful.

3 weeks for McGuigan seems quite lenient. Not deemed reckless and no need for a deterrent to others apparently.

No 7&1/2 wrote:3 weeks for McGuigan seems quite lenient. Not deemed reckless and no need for a deterrent to others apparently.

Was it 6 weeks reduced to 3 or a straight 3?

Either way I think that's about right, what he did was reckless and stupid but not massively violent or dangerous. It's not like he was raining punches in.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:3 weeks for McGuigan seems quite lenient. Not deemed reckless and no need for a deterrent to others apparently.

Was it 6 weeks reduced to 3 or a straight 3?

Either way I think that's about right, what he did was reckless and stupid but not massively violent or dangerous. It's not like he was raining punches in.

I don't know, mate. He came up from behind Tompkins meaning Tompkins was defenseless.  Grabbed him around the neck and body slammed him to the ground.  To me that is both violent and dangerous.  And, of course, inexcusable.

6 to 3 Sam. Some detail below and a link. Myself I think he's got away with it a bit, also the summary said no recklessness whereas the full statement does. He basically had 3 goes and it could have ended very badly where he threw him (has he not seen Million Dollar Baby?!). I was thinking Tomkins had said something cutting and personal...he just said a run of the mill taunt for petes sake. For the amount he absolutely lost it i think its a short ban.

https://www.englandrugby.com//dxdam/eb/eb7b34f7-7795-4986-abef-95cd49a44567/Mcguigan%20Byron%20(Sale%20Sharks)%20-%20RFU%20shortform%20judgment%2030.11.21%20(003).pdf

'During the incident, the match footage shows that Mr Tomkins bent down to say something to the Player and them tapped him on the head. The Player told the Panel that Mr Tomkins had said to him "get that up you, you Frak ****" before hitting him, for the second time, on his head. He acted instinctively but disproportionate to grab Mr Tomkins. He was pushed in the back and assumed that this was Mr Tomkins, so grabbed him again, fell with Mr Tomkins to the ground and pinned him down. After the game, he apologised to Mr Tomkins and Saracens' coaching staff/other players. Such conduct was not in character and he was remorseful. He fully accepted his response to the incident was wholly disproportionate and that, as a role model to young players, he had let them and his club down.'

Ah the personal apology probably saved him a bit. Considering that's all Tomkins said he is a lucky boy that's pretty much a friendly onfield welcome in the amateur league I played in before my knees gave in. Completely disproportionate reaction.

Can't react to trash talk.  Happens all the time in pro sport.  And now that people see he can be riled up by it, guaranteed to keep happening.