Djokovic´s Dilemma

Djokovic has spent a lot of time complaining about COVID restrictions during the pandemic. But I don´t recall him yet missing a big tournament as a result. For at least one tournament, I seem to recall it was the Olympics, he tried to imply or say he was very doubtful about attending, presumably in his attempt to use his star power to get at least some rules changed. When this didn't work, when they called him on his bluff about not attending, he folded and went anyway.

Now, he has got two choices, and neither seems great from his perspective and given his beliefs.

1. Get vaccinated and attend the Australian Open. This would be a total fold, a clear admission of bluffing, and a very clear admission that he has been trying to use his star power to get rule changes rather than genuinely not planning to attend. It's sort of an admission of defeat.

2. Don´t play the Australian Open. This means giving up on one of his best chances to retire with the most slams. His attendance at this event could yet make all the difference. This also risks the vaccination issue coming up over and over again at other tournaments. Will other slams have similar rules? Is he also prepared to miss them?

Doubt very much that Djoko will miss the AO...

What I don't understand is that Djokovic (and his wife) tested positive for Covid and recovered which means he developed a natural immunity to it.   One mechanism considered for fighting Covid was injecting the blood of a recovered Covid patient into the blood of that of someone without having had Covid (for blood compatible individuals).

ps: with regard to Djokovic I don't know if the issue is getting vaccinated after developing a natural immunity to Covid or releasing medical information about himself he doesn't want to reveal (patient confidentiality).

He tested positive almost a year and a half ago, I believe. As such it is debatable how much natural immunity he will still have.
In any case, the policy of the Australian government is very clear and it would take an extraordinary sense of entitlement for Djokovic to argue that it shouldn't apply to him.

No name Bertie wrote:
ps: with regard to Djokovic I don't know if  the issue is getting vaccinated after developing a natural immunity to Covid or releasing medical information about himself he doesn't want to reveal (patient confidentiality).

No he states that he is not willing to have something pumped into his body that he has no idea what is in it and if there are any lasting side effects. It is not that outlandish a stance as I have relatives who feel exactly the same way about the vaccination.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

No name Bertie wrote:
ps: with regard to Djokovic I don't know if  the issue is getting vaccinated after developing a natural immunity to Covid or releasing medical information about himself he doesn't want to reveal (patient confidentiality).

No he states that he is not willing to have something pumped into his body that he has no idea what is in it and if there are any lasting side effects. It is not that outlandish a stance as I have relatives who feel exactly the same way about the vaccination.

It is that outlandish and it highlights a level of idiocy expected of Djokovic.

Don’t get vaccinated, don’t play. Don’t see any grey areas. Djokovic’s father ‘Novak is being blackmailed by Australian open’
Clearly doesn’t understand what blackmail means.
The tournament goes on whether Djokovic plays or not.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

No name Bertie wrote:
ps: with regard to Djokovic I don't know if  the issue is getting vaccinated after developing a natural immunity to Covid or releasing medical information about himself he doesn't want to reveal (patient confidentiality).

No he states that he is not willing to have something pumped into his body that he has no idea what is in it and if there are any lasting side effects. It is not that outlandish a stance as I have relatives who feel exactly the same way about the vaccination.

What is in the vaccine isn't a secret. If anyone wants to understand it they can read about it.
He didn't seem that bothered about getting covid or any lasting effects of that, even though covid is clearly more of a health risk than the vaccine.

It's also not really the AO's rules that are being discussed, but Australian Government policy, which is no admission of foreign travellers unless they are vaccinated.

I could maybe understand the reluctance to get vaccinated early, but hundreds of millions of people have now been vaccinated with any of about 5 approved (in different locations) vaccines and with only exceptionally rare serious side effects, so just go ahead and get the effin jab like the rest of us.
Even if you don't think being vaccinated against Covid is worth it (a possibly valid argument with regards to the omicron variant, where there are suggestions it may not be much impacted by the current vaccines), it's not a major inconvenience to have it done, and at least it does no harm (well, other than that Bill Gates is now tracking all of us with the embedded microchips, but that's a small price to pay )

JuliusHMarx wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

No name Bertie wrote:
ps: with regard to Djokovic I don't know if  the issue is getting vaccinated after developing a natural immunity to Covid or releasing medical information about himself he doesn't want to reveal (patient confidentiality).

No he states that he is not willing to have something pumped into his body that he has no idea what is in it and if there are any lasting side effects. It is not that outlandish a stance as I have relatives who feel exactly the same way about the vaccination.

What is in the vaccine isn't a secret. If anyone wants to understand it they can read about it.
He didn't seem that bothered about getting covid or any lasting effects of that, even though covid is clearly more of a health risk than the vaccine.

Presumably he knows all the ingredients of the various painkillers he will have taken over the years. Does he have a medical team? Does he bother to trust their expertise or does he tell them what is going on? Be nice to be as smart as Novak.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

No name Bertie wrote:
ps: with regard to Djokovic I don't know if  the issue is getting vaccinated after developing a natural immunity to Covid or releasing medical information about himself he doesn't want to reveal (patient confidentiality).

No he states that he is not willing to have something pumped into his body that he has no idea what is in it and if there are any lasting side effects. It is not that outlandish a stance as I have relatives who feel exactly the same way about the vaccination.

I did not know that, thanks for your informative response.

Given Djokovic is an elite sportsperson and regularly tested it has obviously been inculcated into him that he is personally responsible for anything that goes into his body, including medicines and health remedies. I seem to recall someone losing a medal because he used some form of vick inhaler for his sinuses - Alain Baxter from Scotland. It just means that today's elite athletes are by necessity required to obtain a lot of information before putting something into their bodies.

Given that the ATP are encouraging players to get vaccinated I don't think Djoko needs to worry about getting a drugs ban for it.

The ATP might notice something if all those vaccinated started failing drugs tests, not that it's an actual possibility. I find it quite disappointing that some are so willing to make excuses for anti vaxxers.

If you read all the comments Djokovic had made over the years on health, medicine, diet and now vaccines it does seem reasonable at this point to conclude that he isn't particularly intelligent (at least in some respects), and has insufficient respect for mainstream science.

Should the ATP and WTA make a statement that all un-vaxxed players will be banned from their respective tours for the start of the 2022 season?

ps Does anyone know if any sporting federation (worldwide or regional) will ban any unvaxxed player from their sport / competition. You would have thought for team sports the sporting federation would make it mandatory for players to be fully vaccinated and boostered (e.g. FIFA, UEFA, American Football).

dummy_half wrote:It's also not really the AO's rules that are being discussed, but Australian Government policy, which is no admission of foreign travellers unless they are vaccinated.

I could maybe understand the reluctance to get vaccinated early, but hundreds of millions of people have now been vaccinated with any of about 5 approved (in different locations) vaccines and with only exceptionally rare serious side effects, so just go ahead and get the effin jab like the rest of us.
Even if you don't think being vaccinated against Covid is worth it (a possibly valid argument with regards to the omicron variant, where there are suggestions it may not be much impacted by the current vaccines), it's not a major inconvenience to have it done, and at least it does no harm (well, other than that Bill Gates is now tracking all of us with the embedded microchips, but that's a small price to pay  )

But do we know? About side effects etc? There are rumours going around of increased amounts of footballers having cardiac events since vaccination. Pretty sure there are other such queries going around. As I said I have relatives, and they are g=from a medical background, who refuse to have it due to skepticism of what is in it and the side effects that could come with it.

Besides, at the end of the day, Djokovic now knows where he stands and if he misses the Australian Open because of this it will be of his own choice so he cannot complain.

Soul Requiem wrote:The ATP might notice something if all those vaccinated started failing drugs tests, not that it's an actual possibility. I find it quite disappointing that some are so willing to make excuses for anti vaxxers.

Look there are various groups of people who refuse vaccination - all with differing reasons.

You have the rebellious sorts who are anti-establishment who simply refuse to conform to being ordered to take a vaccine.

You have others who are genuinely skeptical about the vaccine and what it contains and its side effects plus the actual use of it. They point to why the virus is still spreading in the UK despite the vast majority of the UK being vaccinated.

There are those with other issues or perhaps a combination of both of the above issues.

And by the way, for the record, I have already been double vaccinated.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:The ATP might notice something if all those vaccinated started failing drugs tests, not that it's an actual possibility. I find it quite disappointing that some are so willing to make excuses for anti vaxxers.

Look there are various groups of people who refuse vaccination - all with differing reasons.

You have the rebellious sorts who are anti-establishment who simply refuse to conform to being ordered to take a vaccine.

You have others who are genuinely skeptical about the vaccine and what it contains and its side effects plus the actual use of it. They point to why the virus is still spreading in the UK despite the vast majority of the UK being vaccinated.

There are those with other issues or perhaps a combination of both of the above issues.

And by the way, for the record, I have already been double vaccinated.

So varying degree of idiot then. The make up and what is contained within the vaccines is no secret, there is no conspiracy to hide it from the public. It's merely an excuse used by people to justify their idiocy, nothing more, nothing less. To think the virus is still spreading in no small part thanks to those refusing the vaccine, it also ignores that the chain between cases and deaths was broken many months ago thanks to the vaccines.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

But do we know? About side effects etc? There are rumours going around of increased amounts of footballers having cardiac events since vaccination. Pretty sure there are other such queries going around. As I said I have relatives, and they are g=from a medical background, who refuse to have it due to skepticism of what is in it and the side effects that could come with it.

There are also rumours going round that Bill Gates has funded the vaccine to implant microchips in us. That is equally as stupid and unfounded as footballers having cardiac issues.

Your relatives have a medical background yet are sceptical of what is in it? I would have thought they could have used that medical background to find out for themselves. Unless by 'medical background' you mean they've read a few things on the internet.

Presumably if one of your relatives with a medical background got cancer, they would refuse chemotherapy on the basis they didn't know what was in it?

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

But do we know? About side effects etc? There are rumours going around of increased amounts of footballers having cardiac events since vaccination. Pretty sure there are other such queries going around. As I said I have relatives, and they are g=from a medical background, who refuse to have it due to skepticism of what is in it and the side effects that could come with it.

There are also rumours going round that Bill Gates has funded the vaccine to implant microchips in us. That is equally as stupid and unfounded as footballers having cardiac issues.

Your relatives have a medical background yet are sceptical of what is in it? I would have thought they could have used that medical background to find out for themselves. Unless by 'medical background' you mean they've read a few things on the internet.

Presumably if one of your relatives with a medical background got cancer, they would refuse chemotherapy on the basis they didn't know what was in it?

Let's be clear here. The medical profession, well vaccine creators are not strangers to administering drugs that offer up side effects - Thalidomide anyone? It happens and has been happening for generations so it is not outlandish that people are skeptical of it. At the end of the day, in this instance, why are tennis fans getting their knickers in a knot? Djokovic has taken a stance that will bar him from competing at a slam event - happy days surely? It is his choice and he'll pay the price for it.

Thalidomide... 60 years ago.

This person a professional sportsperson had an adverse reaction to the vaccine that has left him permanently debilitated. Initially he was misdiagnosed because the medic he first saw refused to accept there could be any side effects. He has also received abuse because people thought he was an "anti-vaxxer" and we know that some will call anyone an idiot if there is any discussion at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7inaTiDKaU

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

But do we know? About side effects etc? There are rumours going around of increased amounts of footballers having cardiac events since vaccination. Pretty sure there are other such queries going around. As I said I have relatives, and they are g=from a medical background, who refuse to have it due to skepticism of what is in it and the side effects that could come with it.

There are also rumours going round that Bill Gates has funded the vaccine to implant microchips in us. That is equally as stupid and unfounded as footballers having cardiac issues.

Your relatives have a medical background yet are sceptical of what is in it? I would have thought they could have used that medical background to find out for themselves. Unless by 'medical background' you mean they've read a few things on the internet.

Presumably if one of your relatives with a medical background got cancer, they would refuse chemotherapy on the basis they didn't know what was in it?

Let's be clear here. The medical profession, well vaccine creators are not strangers to administering drugs that offer up side effects - Thalidomide anyone? It happens and has been happening for generations so it is not outlandish that people are skeptical of it. At the end of the day, in this instance, why are tennis fans getting their knickers in a knot? Djokovic has taken a stance that will bar him from competing at a slam event - happy days surely? It is his choice and he'll pay the price for it.

Few, if any, industries have a perfect track record. It is still better trusting those generations (your word) of medical expertise than chancing your arm with something that is still more likely to get you into serious trouble than a vaccine. Thalidomide was in the 1950's and 60's! Jesus, did we not learn our lessons from the Spanish flu either. The medical profession really should read up on the Black Death as well.

I'm not actually a tennis 'fan' so couldn't give a monkeys if he plays or not. I'm just aware as a general sports fan what a complete knob Djokovic comes across as.

Soul Requiem wrote:Thalidomide... 60 years ago.

This.

No name Bertie wrote:This person a professional sportsperson had an adverse reaction to the vaccine that has left him permanently debilitated.  Initially he was misdiagnosed because the medic he first saw refused to accept there could be any side effects.  He has also received abuse because people thought he was an "anti-vaxxer" and we know that some will call anyone an idiot if there is any discussion at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7inaTiDKaU

Yep. There are idiots on both side of the argument. No one would dispute that.

What we should challenge is unfounded, and dangerous, misinformation which is heavily weighted to side of the argument that non-vaccinated people sit on.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:.... What we should challenge is unfounded, and dangerous, misinformation which is heavily weighted to side of the argument that non-vaccinated people sit on.

Why should vaccinated people be in danger of unvaccinated people?

No name Bertie wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:.... What we should challenge is unfounded, and dangerous, misinformation which is heavily weighted to side of the argument that non-vaccinated people sit on.

Why should vaccinated people be in danger of unvaccinated people?

The clinically vulnerable who cannot have the vaccine for medical reasons are at high risk of those who choose not to be vaccinated. I'm thinking of all the nurses, carers, teachers etc. who have fallen for the anti-vax propaganda. Your post is so narrow minded it's almost funny but people are dying because of this.

No name Bertie wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:.... What we should challenge is unfounded, and dangerous, misinformation which is heavily weighted to side of the argument that non-vaccinated people sit on.

Why should vaccinated people be in danger of unvaccinated people?

What are you talking about, flower?

I'm saying that almost all the misinformation comes from non vaccinated people. Not all of it, but the vast majority of it. Footballers having cardiac issues is one small example. Taking an 'incident' and filling in the gaps with misinformation.

You've posted one example that backs the narrative. That's fine. Classic internet practise. I could post a link to someone whose life has been saved by vaccines if I had the inclination. Probably don't need to.

None here have any medical training. As I said some will shout idiot if there is ANY discussion.

Now WHO are the clinically vulnerable who cannot have the vaccine for medical reasons? I have not heard of this. Could you be confusing those that have a medical exemption for not wearing a mask but this doesn't prevent them from being vaccinated.

No name Bertie wrote:None here have any medical training.  As I said some will shout idiot if there is ANY discussion.

Now WHO are the clinically vulnerable who cannot have the vaccine for medical reasons?   I have not heard of this.   Could you be confusing those that have a medical exemption for not wearing a mask but this doesn't prevent them from being vaccinated.

Are you talking to me or Soul?

I hope it's Soul as I have no idea what you're talking about and you're certainly not addressing the points I was discussing.

Timo you were talking about misinformation. I am only interested in information NOT misinformation. If you believe I have said ANYTHING that you consider to be MISINFORMATION then point it out and I will address it.

I do however possess a brain and am capable of understanding rudimentary medical advice handed out by said professionals.

There are both those with medical exemptions say people receiving end of life care, those with learning difficulties most notably autism or those who are allergic to any part of the vaccine. There are then those who have the vaccine but are on immunotherapy so despite being vaccinated are still at high risk, that risk is heightened even further by contact with unvaccinated people.

No name Bertie wrote:Timo you were talking about misinformation.  I am only interested in information NOT  misinformation.  If you believe I have said ANYTHING that you consider to be MISINFORMATION then point it out and I will address it.

Jeez, princess. Cool your jets.

It was a general comment on the misinformation around vaccines. I didn't name you did I. It was part of the wider debate I was addressing with you and Craig.

You seem like you're arguing with yourself. I'm not reposting it all. Just take some time to actually read what people are posting before you get too excited and post whatever is going through your head.

Makes for a much cleaner debate.

No name Bertie wrote:Timo you were talking about misinformation.  I am only interested in information NOT  misinformation.  If you believe I have said ANYTHING that you consider to be MISINFORMATION then point it out and I will address it.

His name is Tino (or Tina if you remember his fondness for Strictly Come Dancing).

The attached gives a fact check on the footballers with cardiac issues relating to the Covid vaccine.
https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-coronavirus-sport-idUSL1N2SK160

As you might expect with a propaganda video on tinterwebs, several of the cases included pre-date the vaccine, others occurred in unvaccinated players (including Christian Erickson) and there is a strong suspicion that some were caused by Covid-induced cardiac myopathy (i.e. from the players having symptoms associated with non-diagnosed Covid, rather than the vaccine). Generally, while there have been cases of cardio myopathy associated with the vaccines (at least the Pfizer and Moderna ones, AZ was blood clots), these have been minor and easily treated, rather than sufficient to cause the sort of collapse seen.

Ever since the grovelling (but ultimately pointless) apology in the wake of damage brought about by his ill-conceived & wholly irresponsible Adria Tour, I find it very hard to attach either merit or credibility to any Covid-related remarks made by Djokovic.

https://www.skysports.com/tennis/news/12110/12013194/novak-djokovic-confirms-positive-coronavirus-test-and-issues-apology-over-adria-tour

I am convinced he was expecting the AO organisers, and / or State of Victoria authorities, to bow to his ‘stardom’ (“How could we possibly stage the Tournament without you, Novak ?”) ; but - as already pointed out by others above - that strategy has clearly failed.

For me, claims by Djokovic that an indication of one’s vaccination status equates to disclosure of highly confidential, privileged, medical history smacks way more of childishness than personal integrity.

Announced today that Djoko is on the entry list for the AO. Looks like he's either been jabbed or is going to be jabbed.

One non-starter is Serena Williams who reckons she's not fit enough to play.

On the entry list is not completely definitive. Looking at a few news stories I'd say we still need a confirmation that he has been vaccinated before we know for sure he's playing. At the moment, we don't have this.

The tournament starts on January 17th. We might expect him to arrive a few days early to adjust to the jet lag. So if it is a two dose vaccine with 4 weeks or a month in between he needs to get the first dose ideally by today, and certainly well within this week, I would imagine....

Seems like Djokovic’s participation hinges on a medical exception. He doesn’t seem to be vaccinated…
He doesn’t merit any exceptions.

I hope Djokovic does play but I dont think he will. It will certainly open up the draw for a new winner. I am sure the rest of the field will be glad as it would give them a much better chance to make a run. It's a shame because I would like to see Djokovic win a 10th Oz open. I think the fact he is not even in Australia yet is quite telling. It starts in 2 weeks

Reports are now circulating that Djokovic a) will indeed compete at the AO, and b) will be doing so on the basis of an exemption granted to him from the Covid-19 vaccination requirements.

Yep, BBC reporting that now.

Disgrace.
Djockvic is such a self-entitled dick.

We don't have the facts on the reason for the exemption, but regardless I suspect the crowd will be very hostile towards him now. Not sure it will matter though - if there's anyone who loves silencing a hostile crowd, it's Novak.

We'll probably never find out, but it does read as though he's unvaccinated, which is a bad look. There is however a chance he has received the sputnik vaccine, which doesn't grant entry to Australia, but perhaps that's how he got the exemption.

How pathetic and insulting to so many who have been refused entry to the country.

Djokovic confirmed. To be honest he is not going to win it anyway, he will have played no warm up tournament in the lead up so I just cant seem him winning it. Lets be honest none of us know what the medical exemption was and if its an independent panel, there must have been something in it.

The Aussies strike me as being very strict on vaccination, quarantine etc. so I doubt they would have just given him an exemption for nothing. I still dont think he will win or even get to the final. I think he is coming in too underprepared regardless

Would like to know the grounds for the medical exemption - can they for example prove he has antibodies for coronavirus given he is supposed to have caught it and survived it (natural immunity). Haven't heard of the "sputnik vaccine".

So Djoko will play.

Slasher - you may be being over-pessimistic about Novak's chances. OK, he's coming in to the tournament cold. But this is Melbourne where he has an amazing record and where he gets to play mainly night-time matches.

Yes, Djoko cannot be considered OVERWHELMING favourite but I would still make him favourite, under-prepared or not.

Disappointing defeat for Andy M today. He converted just two of his 13 BPs.

SFP, I just think there are a lot of in form players right now like Medvedev and Zverev and I would fancy them beating Djokovic at Oz open this year. I know Djokovic is a different animal at Oz open though and his record of 9 finals and 9 wins is incredible. I just think that run has to end some time and with no match practise, this could be the year. I wouldnt be overly surprised if he goes out early, just a feeling I have.

I think Zverev or Medvedev will win it. All it takes is a very dangerous 1st or 2nd round opponent who catches fire and has nothing to lose. There will be quite a few dangerous unseeded players.

Not too many posters around nowadays to vote in one of those 606 opinion polls that used to crop up here from time to time ; but this announcement will no doubt generate a fair bit of debate in mainstream media.

- is the so-called ‘wholly-independent’ panel not quite as impartial as we are led to believe …… ?

- does the panel truly not know - or have any way of knowing - the identity of any player applying for an exemption ……. ?

- has Djokovic provided some key information to the panel which might be ….. er ……less than 100% accurate ?

Or ……… is the exemption entirely justified …… ??

I personally wouldn’t stake any hard cash on the last possibility !

This is a player whose various past injuries and associated treatments have (with his own approval and public statements) been discussed regularly, and in great detail. And yet he claims that vaccination status should remain a totally private matter. For me, he has zero credibility.

He will be the clear favourite for the title ; but I somehow doubt that tennis fans at the stadium - let alone Aussie residents in general - will be rushing to organise a welcome party for Djokovic.