Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[beninho]

First topic message reminder :

It does seem that this cat video is pretty old. But, also oeople seem more upset about it then say, Chelsea having a player who killed someone when he was drink driving.

We are a nation of animal lovers, my mum was all in on Romanian rescue dogs, not so keen on Romanian people.
,

[JAS]

This is painful. Why are you still going on about convicting him?

Yep it is painful, painful that you both continue to argue an unresolvable point. Its been settled, it didn't go to court, that's it, anything else is pure speculation.

[navyblueshorts]

Navy

I doubt we see this all that differently. Super has muddied the waters by claiming I said we know enough to convict Andrew. I clearly never said that. All I have said is that we know enough to make an assessment of his behavior and whether it is suitable for him to hold an official public position.

Really, my main issue with the whole situation is that the queen got away with paying for r*** case to go away.

Not commenting on your first paragraph, but your second is plain daft. By extrapolation, no-one should ever be gifted money from, say, parents, in order to pay a fine/settle out of court etc? Don't be absurd. A mother, albeit a wealthy one, helped out her son. That's all you, or anyone else, can infer from that.

The main issue is, probably, that you (and others) don't get to poke your nose into issues that don't actually concern you.

[beninho]

Scrapping stamp duty, but having rates going up to 5.5% so no bugger can move anyway seems counter productive.

They really have gone full scale mental it seems.

[JAS]

Scrapping stamp duty, but having rates going up to 5.5% so no bugger can move anyway seems counter productive.

They really have gone full scale mental it seems.

Additionally to artificially try to sustain/boost house prices just takes them further out of the reach of first time buyers. What they are doing is NOT free market economics it’s manipulated (where they think it might help them) market economics.

…and as for the slurs peddled for years ridiculing Opposition plans with the non Sensical “There is no magic money tree” They have apparently stumbled on a magic money effin forest. Their duplicity is just jaw dropping

[super_realist]

Scrapping stamp duty, but having rates going up to 5.5% so no bugger can move anyway seems counter productive.

They really have gone full scale mental it seems.

Interest rates aren't 5.5%

[beninho]

Scrapping stamp duty, but having rates going up to 5.5% so no bugger can move anyway seems counter productive.

They really have gone full scale mental it seems.

Interest rates aren't 5.5%

Has anyone said they are?

The prediction is bank base rate to 4.75% by mid 2023 so actual mortgage rates likely are to be over 5.5%.

I'm assuming you have read the news and knew what I was talking about?

[navyblueshorts]

Mortgages currently about base rate +1.5%. Already at ~3.8% for 5-year fixed. Best thing I've done for a long time is bail on a 5-year fixed rate ~9 months early last month for a new 5-year fixed. Even paying an ERC is going to be a good thing vs. the increasing rates. There's about to be a lot of homeowner angst. On the plus side, if it kills a lot of the buy to let market, that's got to be a plus...

[JAS]

Do we have any right wing apologists on here willing and able to explain, accompanied by empirical and irrefutable evidence that trickle down economics actually works (when I say works I mean benefits the majority of the population in the country where it is being applied)??

[beninho]

It's all pretty interesting, in a grim kind of way..

Trust and Kwarteng are both ideological on their views. And im assuming believe it so much they ignored the warnings of what may happen on their announcements. Now, from what I've read, tge only step is that interest rates go up by a lot. Probably more them they anticipated would happen, but they will be having a big cut in services which is what will fund their tax cuts and borrowing and is inline with their political views.

High interest rates, weak pound, services being cut for all. Not sure that the majority will like that.

It's like people who think that those shouting on twitter are the majority.

Though I see the daily mail are blaming the bankers

[super_realist]

Do we have any right wing apologists on here willing and able to explain, accompanied by empirical and irrefutable evidence that trickle down economics actually works (when I say works I mean benefits the majority of the population in the country where it is being applied)??

I don't see anyone defending it or thinking it's a good idea but I will say that for the majority of the Blair/Brown era the top rate of tax was also 40%.
Furthermore I don't want to hear a peep out of Welsh or Scotch devolved parliaments about cost of living, especially in Scotland where the tax rate is now 2% higher at each bracket and 5% higher for top earners.

This isn't just an issue in regards to Tory policy though as much as you might love to blame them for everything. I met an Austrian friend at a wedding at the weekend and gas prices there have risen 900%.

One rather obvious thing that can't be ignored is that tax cuts will almost always favour those who pay the most tax. Those who earn less pay less tax anyway.
For example I can earn five times more than someone, but I pay 12x more tax. Obviously tax cuts are going to favour me more than someone on less money, so it's a bit of a diversionary tactic and a bit of a non statement.

[beninho]

900%? Nothing on Google about increases of that level in Austria.

[Soul Requiem]

900%?  Nothing on Google about increases of that level in Austria.

That's slightly more believable than thinking a) S_r has an Austrian friend or b) anyone would invite him to their wedding.

[beninho]

One rather obvious thing that can't be ignored is that tax cuts will almost always favour those who pay the most tax. Those who earn less pay less tax anyway


Someone needs to tell the treasury and all leading firms, we have a new economist in town. With his bang on insights!

[JAS]

Do we have any right wing apologists on here willing and able to explain, accompanied by empirical and irrefutable evidence that trickle down economics actually works (when I say works I mean benefits the majority of the population in the country where it is being applied)??

I don't see anyone defending it or thinking it's a good idea but I will say that for the majority of the Blair/Brown era the top rate of tax was also 40%.
Furthermore I don't want to hear a peep out of Welsh or Scotch devolved parliaments about cost of living, especially in Scotland where the tax rate is now 2% higher at each bracket and 5% higher for top earners.

This isn't just an issue in regards to Tory policy though as much as you might love to blame them for everything. I met an Austrian friend at a wedding at the weekend and gas prices there have risen 900%.

One rather obvious thing that can't be ignored is that tax cuts will almost always favour those who pay the most tax. Those who earn less pay less tax anyway.
For example I can earn five times more than someone, but I pay 12x more tax. Obviously tax cuts are going to favour me more than someone on less money, so it's a bit of a diversionary tactic and a bit of a non statement.

Aye I’m sure all those at their wits end here over energy, fuel and mortgage payments will feel so much better that somebody apparently says “Well it could be worse, in Austria (that’s non oil and gas producing Austria) people are having to cope with much worse” That just the typical kind of whataboutery that Tories peddle that they think will make things feel better. If it wasn’t so tragic it’d be hilarious in its comedic value in illustrating just how out of touch they are.

[Galted]

900%?  Nothing on Google about increases of that level in Austria.

That's slightly more believable than thinking a) S_r has an Austrian friend or b) anyone would invite him to their wedding.

In his defence, he said he met an Austrian friend, not his Austrian friend.  And he didn't mention being invited.

[super_realist]

One rather obvious thing that can't be ignored is that tax cuts will almost always favour those who pay the most tax. Those who earn less pay less tax anyway


Someone needs to tell the treasury and all leading firms, we have a new economist in town. With his bang on insights!

Do you not see the point? Every time someone cuts tax, the left just says " oh they're favouring their rich mates"
Of course tax cuts favour those who pay most tax, so why do the left try and use it as a stick for beating? If anyone is guilty of stating the obvious it's the loony arm of the left.

[super_realist]

Do we have any right wing apologists on here willing and able to explain, accompanied by empirical and irrefutable evidence that trickle down economics actually works (when I say works I mean benefits the majority of the population in the country where it is being applied)??

I don't see anyone defending it or thinking it's a good idea but I will say that for the majority of the Blair/Brown era the top rate of tax was also 40%.
Furthermore I don't want to hear a peep out of Welsh or Scotch devolved parliaments about cost of living, especially in Scotland where the tax rate is now 2% higher at each bracket and 5% higher for top earners.

This isn't just an issue in regards to Tory policy though as much as you might love to blame them for everything. I met an Austrian friend at a wedding at the weekend and gas prices there have risen 900%.

One rather obvious thing that can't be ignored is that tax cuts will almost always favour those who pay the most tax. Those who earn less pay less tax anyway.
For example I can earn five times more than someone, but I pay 12x more tax. Obviously tax cuts are going to favour me more than someone on less money, so it's a bit of a diversionary tactic and a bit of a non statement.

Aye I’m sure all those at their wits end here over energy, fuel and mortgage payments will feel so much better that somebody apparently says “Well it could be worse, in Austria (that’s non oil and gas producing Austria) people are having to cope with much worse”  That just the typical kind of whataboutery that Tories peddle that they think will make things feel better. If it wasn’t so tragic it’d be hilarious in its comedic value in illustrating just how out of touch they are.

The point is JAS that the likes of you seem to want to imply that the cost of living crisis (a genuine crisis for once ) is PURELY the result of Tory policy and is ONLY affecting the UK.
You søkt ever want to look further afield because although you do have genuine reason for Tory criticism it wouldn't suit your narrative to admit that other countries also are having a very hard time.

[beninho]

One rather obvious thing that can't be ignored is that tax cuts will almost always favour those who pay the most tax. Those who earn less pay less tax anyway


Someone needs to tell the treasury and all leading firms, we have a new economist in town. With his bang on insights!

Do you not see the point? Every time someone cuts tax, the left just says " oh they're favouring their rich mates"
Of course tax cuts favour those who pay most tax, so why do the left try and use it as a stick for beating? If anyone is guilty of stating the obvious it's the loony arm of the left.

Do you think that the reduction from 45% for the top few is justified? Because it would appear from polling that many don't, and therefore labour and other parties shoukd be screaming it loud.

[beninho]

Or even, do you or anyone think reducing the top rate for over 150k while keeping the the thresholds for everyone else frozen is fair?

[Soul Requiem]

Or even, do you or anyone think reducing the top rate  for over 150k while keeping the the thresholds for everyone else frozen is fair?

I would either have decreased the lower threshold to 15% or increased the personal allowance whilst increasing the higher threshold to an arbitrary figure of £175k for instance. You are then at least giving the impression of helping the poorer in society whilst appeasing the richer to an extent. Kwarteng is an economic historian so has decided to revert to 1980's trickle down which is conducive with the modern economy with the housing market as it is, dare I say it Sunak had a far greater grasp of what was needed.

[JAS]

Or even, do you or anyone think reducing the top rate  for over 150k while keeping the the thresholds for everyone else frozen is fair?

I would either have decreased the lower threshold to 15% or increased the personal allowance whilst increasing the higher threshold to an arbitrary figure of £175k for instance. You are then at least giving the impression of helping the poorer in society whilst appeasing the richer to an extent. Kwarteng is an economic historian so has decided to revert to 1980's trickle down which is conducive with the modern economy with the housing market as it is, dare I say it Sunak had a far greater grasp of what was needed.

Tinkering with thresholds particularly the lower one would have been a much better way of making the ideological case Soul. I would still have disagreed with it at the moment but it would have been a bit more subtle and dare I say effective than the bomb that he actually dropped.

If you look at it in the round though Sunak and Truss were ploughing quite different furrows during the leadership race. The Tory party had 2 choices and it chose this one and you have to say it would most likely be on this topic that they chose it and that will be a choice that should be remembered at the next election. I also thought (although I hate personality over politics thinking) that Sunak had so so much more electoral appeal than Truss outside the Tory party. I really don't think they could have given the Labour Party a bigger gift if they'd tried. The MPs gave the wrong 2 choices (it should have been Mordaunt v Tudgenhat) and then the Party screwed up the 50/50.

Realistically will there be a big enough rump of Sunak supporting back benchers to side with the opposition to stop the insanity or will they just roll over for the sake of the party unity and to hell with the not quite managing?

[Duty281]

Or even, do you or anyone think reducing the top rate  for over 150k while keeping the the thresholds for everyone else frozen is fair?

I would either have decreased the lower threshold to 15% or increased the personal allowance whilst increasing the higher threshold to an arbitrary figure of £175k for instance. You are then at least giving the impression of helping the poorer in society whilst appeasing the richer to an extent. Kwarteng is an economic historian so has decided to revert to 1980's trickle down which is conducive with the modern economy with the housing market as it is, dare I say it Sunak had a far greater grasp of what was needed.

Tinkering with thresholds particularly the lower one would have been a much better way of making the ideological case Soul. I would still have disagreed with it at the moment but it would have been a bit more subtle and dare I say effective than the bomb that he actually dropped.

If you look at it in the round though Sunak and Truss were ploughing quite different furrows during the leadership race. The Tory party had 2 choices and it chose this one and you have to say it would most likely be on this topic that they chose it and that will be a choice that should be remembered at the next election. I also thought (although I hate personality over politics thinking) that Sunak had so so much more electoral appeal than Truss outside the Tory party. I really don't think they could have given the Labour Party a bigger gift if they'd tried. The MPs gave the wrong 2 choices (it should have been Mordaunt v Tudgenhat) and then the Party screwed up the 50/50.

Realistically will there be a big enough rump of Sunak supporting back benchers to side with the opposition to stop the insanity or will they just roll over for the sake of the party unity and to hell with the not quite managing?

He really didn't. His electoral appeal utterly tanked, after some initial highs, because of partygate and he would have been seen as Johnson part 2, which no one wants. It would have been like Labour backing Brown after Blair.

Mordaunt would have also been dreadful for the Tory Party.

[beninho]

I saw a link from Sunaks campaign site basically saying your interest rates will go up with Truss policy. And a mortgage calculation tool. Saying an extra 3,5,7 %

It was all pretty open. Though Truss didn't think it will happen.

[Soul Requiem]

Or even, do you or anyone think reducing the top rate  for over 150k while keeping the the thresholds for everyone else frozen is fair?

I would either have decreased the lower threshold to 15% or increased the personal allowance whilst increasing the higher threshold to an arbitrary figure of £175k for instance. You are then at least giving the impression of helping the poorer in society whilst appeasing the richer to an extent. Kwarteng is an economic historian so has decided to revert to 1980's trickle down which is conducive with the modern economy with the housing market as it is, dare I say it Sunak had a far greater grasp of what was needed.

Tinkering with thresholds particularly the lower one would have been a much better way of making the ideological case Soul. I would still have disagreed with it at the moment but it would have been a bit more subtle and dare I say effective than the bomb that he actually dropped.

If you look at it in the round though Sunak and Truss were ploughing quite different furrows during the leadership race. The Tory party had 2 choices and it chose this one and you have to say it would most likely be on this topic that they chose it and that will be a choice that should be remembered at the next election. I also thought (although I hate personality over politics thinking) that Sunak had so so much more electoral appeal than Truss outside the Tory party. I really don't think they could have given the Labour Party a bigger gift if they'd tried. The MPs gave the wrong 2 choices (it should have been Mordaunt v Tudgenhat) and then the Party screwed up the 50/50.

Realistically will there be a big enough rump of Sunak supporting back benchers to side with the opposition to stop the insanity or will they just roll over for the sake of the party unity and to hell with the not quite managing?

You'll get some who will quote polls stating that Truss was more popular than Sunak outside of the party but that ignores how the public would have reacted to each mini budget. Truss will now see a drop in her popularity whilst Sunak would probably have held his position if not gone up slightly, polling before the event are irrelevant. I understand he's tainted by partygate but the bottom line is he's highly intelligent and understands the economy far better than Truss or Kwarteng. Tax cuts are all well and good but they have to be aimed at the right people, high earners simply will not spend that extra money whereas the low earners will, 'i've got an extra £60 this month i'll go out for a meal or i'll go to the pub or i'll buy that dress I had my eye on', in isolation doesn't make a big difference but when you're multiplying that by the millions 'better off' it does. You drive down inflation rather than driving it up.

Sunak will be the next leader of the party and probably will lead them into the next election, this was a gift for the more centrist faction of the party. The sensible money is on Truss being gone by the end of next year. I'd have gone for Tugendhat or Ben Wallace (unfortunately pulled) based on the wider appeal of having ex military connections.

[JAS]

Or even, do you or anyone think reducing the top rate  for over 150k while keeping the the thresholds for everyone else frozen is fair?

I would either have decreased the lower threshold to 15% or increased the personal allowance whilst increasing the higher threshold to an arbitrary figure of £175k for instance. You are then at least giving the impression of helping the poorer in society whilst appeasing the richer to an extent. Kwarteng is an economic historian so has decided to revert to 1980's trickle down which is conducive with the modern economy with the housing market as it is, dare I say it Sunak had a far greater grasp of what was needed.

Tinkering with thresholds particularly the lower one would have been a much better way of making the ideological case Soul. I would still have disagreed with it at the moment but it would have been a bit more subtle and dare I say effective than the bomb that he actually dropped.

If you look at it in the round though Sunak and Truss were ploughing quite different furrows during the leadership race. The Tory party had 2 choices and it chose this one and you have to say it would most likely be on this topic that they chose it and that will be a choice that should be remembered at the next election. I also thought (although I hate personality over politics thinking) that Sunak had so so much more electoral appeal than Truss outside the Tory party. I really don't think they could have given the Labour Party a bigger gift if they'd tried. The MPs gave the wrong 2 choices (it should have been Mordaunt v Tudgenhat) and then the Party screwed up the 50/50.

Realistically will there be a big enough rump of Sunak supporting back benchers to side with the opposition to stop the insanity or will they just roll over for the sake of the party unity and to hell with the not quite managing?

You'll get some who will quote polls stating that Truss was more popular than Sunak outside of the party but that ignores how the public would have reacted to each mini budget. Truss will now see a drop in her popularity whilst Sunak would probably have held his position if not gone up slightly, polling before the event are irrelevant. I understand he's tainted by partygate but the bottom line is he's highly intelligent and understands the economy far better than Truss or Kwarteng. Tax cuts are all well and good but they have to be aimed at the right people, high earners simply will not spend that extra money whereas the low earners will, 'i've got an extra £60 this month i'll go out for a meal or i'll go to the pub or i'll buy that dress I had my eye on', in isolation doesn't make a big difference but when you're multiplying that by the millions 'better off' it does. You drive down inflation rather than driving it up.

Sunak will be the next leader of the party and probably will lead them into the next election, this was a gift for the more centrist faction of the party. The sensible money is on Truss being gone by the end of next year. I'd have gone for Tugendhat or Ben Wallace (unfortunately pulled) based on the wider appeal of having ex military connections.

Quite surprising, given our ideological differences, how much we actually agree on.

[JAS]

Do we have any right wing apologists on here willing and able to explain, accompanied by empirical and irrefutable evidence that trickle down economics actually works (when I say works I mean benefits the majority of the population in the country where it is being applied)??

I don't see anyone defending it or thinking it's a good idea but I will say that for the majority of the Blair/Brown era the top rate of tax was also 40%.
Furthermore I don't want to hear a peep out of Welsh or Scotch devolved parliaments about cost of living, especially in Scotland where the tax rate is now 2% higher at each bracket and 5% higher for top earners.

This isn't just an issue in regards to Tory policy though as much as you might love to blame them for everything. I met an Austrian friend at a wedding at the weekend and gas prices there have risen 900%.

One rather obvious thing that can't be ignored is that tax cuts will almost always favour those who pay the most tax. Those who earn less pay less tax anyway.
For example I can earn five times more than someone, but I pay 12x more tax. Obviously tax cuts are going to favour me more than someone on less money, so it's a bit of a diversionary tactic and a bit of a non statement.

Aye I’m sure all those at their wits end here over energy, fuel and mortgage payments will feel so much better that somebody apparently says “Well it could be worse, in Austria (that’s non oil and gas producing Austria) people are having to cope with much worse”  That just the typical kind of whataboutery that Tories peddle that they think will make things feel better. If it wasn’t so tragic it’d be hilarious in its comedic value in illustrating just how out of touch they are.

The point is JAS that the likes of you seem to want to imply that the cost of living crisis (a genuine crisis for once ) is PURELY the result of Tory policy and is ONLY affecting the UK.
You søkt ever want to look further afield because although you do have genuine reason for Tory criticism it wouldn't suit your narrative to admit that other countries also are having a very hard time.

You mean a genuine crisis like the OPEC oil crisis of the 70s or the 2008 international banking crisis both of which screwed our economy at the time and which it always gets twisted as Labours fault. You cant have it both ways, if the 70's and 08 were Labours fault (because of how they did or didn't deal with those international crisis') then quid pro quo for the current mess...or does that not suit your narrative?
Also how odd to pick Austria as a comparison earlier, what about France? similar population to us and slightly more dependent on Russian oil and gas due to a proportion of their Nuke power plants having big maintenence schedules at the moment. My daughter, who lives just off the west side of Paris confirmed to me that her utility bills have gone up 6% in the past year.

[Soul Requiem]

Or even, do you or anyone think reducing the top rate  for over 150k while keeping the the thresholds for everyone else frozen is fair?

I would either have decreased the lower threshold to 15% or increased the personal allowance whilst increasing the higher threshold to an arbitrary figure of £175k for instance. You are then at least giving the impression of helping the poorer in society whilst appeasing the richer to an extent. Kwarteng is an economic historian so has decided to revert to 1980's trickle down which is conducive with the modern economy with the housing market as it is, dare I say it Sunak had a far greater grasp of what was needed.

Tinkering with thresholds particularly the lower one would have been a much better way of making the ideological case Soul. I would still have disagreed with it at the moment but it would have been a bit more subtle and dare I say effective than the bomb that he actually dropped.

If you look at it in the round though Sunak and Truss were ploughing quite different furrows during the leadership race. The Tory party had 2 choices and it chose this one and you have to say it would most likely be on this topic that they chose it and that will be a choice that should be remembered at the next election. I also thought (although I hate personality over politics thinking) that Sunak had so so much more electoral appeal than Truss outside the Tory party. I really don't think they could have given the Labour Party a bigger gift if they'd tried. The MPs gave the wrong 2 choices (it should have been Mordaunt v Tudgenhat) and then the Party screwed up the 50/50.

Realistically will there be a big enough rump of Sunak supporting back benchers to side with the opposition to stop the insanity or will they just roll over for the sake of the party unity and to hell with the not quite managing?

You'll get some who will quote polls stating that Truss was more popular than Sunak outside of the party but that ignores how the public would have reacted to each mini budget. Truss will now see a drop in her popularity whilst Sunak would probably have held his position if not gone up slightly, polling before the event are irrelevant. I understand he's tainted by partygate but the bottom line is he's highly intelligent and understands the economy far better than Truss or Kwarteng. Tax cuts are all well and good but they have to be aimed at the right people, high earners simply will not spend that extra money whereas the low earners will, 'i've got an extra £60 this month i'll go out for a meal or i'll go to the pub or i'll buy that dress I had my eye on', in isolation doesn't make a big difference but when you're multiplying that by the millions 'better off' it does. You drive down inflation rather than driving it up.

Sunak will be the next leader of the party and probably will lead them into the next election, this was a gift for the more centrist faction of the party. The sensible money is on Truss being gone by the end of next year. I'd have gone for Tugendhat or Ben Wallace (unfortunately pulled) based on the wider appeal of having ex military connections.

Quite surprising, given our ideological differences, how much we actually agree on.

Cognitive flexibility is more important than blindly adhering to an ideology.

[navyblueshorts]

Interesting factoid: our 10-year Gilt rates are now worse (i.e. higher) than Italy or Greece. Greece FFS...

This country is FUBAR.

[JuliusHMarx]

Does that mean we're not gilt-y?

[Mind the windows Tino.]

Interesting factoid: our 10-year Gilt rates are now worse (i.e. higher) than Italy or Greece. Greece FFS...

This country is FUBAR.

We have a f*cked currency and essentially an emerging market economy at the moment. The borrowing costs on 10 yr gilts rose the most in a 5 yr period since 1976 (IMF bailout year).They are at the highest rate since the '08 financial crisis. They were 'only' 1.3% at the start of the year - now above 4% The world is sour (aside from Kwasi, Liz and Duty) on our prospects and it is hardly surprising.

For the sake of balance, bonds have risen across advanced economies but yes, the UK is more FUBAR than others. Kwasimodo's unfunded borrowing, increasing inflationary pressure and a BoE behind the curve on tackling inflation are all combining to kick the UK royally in the balls. The BoE are going to have to get aggressive on rates to curb inflation which will offset much of the gains of tax cuts. Households and businesses operating on close to zero interest rates over the last decade are going to have to face up to servicing debt with those rates close to 5% (?), 6% (?) who knows.

I used to work in the City but now run a business that carries debt to cover cash flow. Like millions of small businesses. Rising repayments on that debt against the backdrop of a shrinking consumer base who (aside from those £150k earners who are going to dig the economy out of this spiral...) are fearful of spending money at the moment doesn't make for a pleasant environment.

On the plus side, haven't got to listen to BoJo anymore. Till it slithers back on the front bench at some point.

[beninho]

The plan is to cut back services. So more cuts to councils and other government organisations. We know Truss is all in on small government and low spending. But remember services have been cut to the bone over the years anyway.

Didn't Truss fire the senior treasury officer as soon as she took over?

And paying her chief of staff via some lobbying firm looks well dodgy, and woukd be more of an issue if the rest wasn't ballsed

[beninho]

Though we think our lot are right wing, but it seems tge Italians have trumped us on that one. Links with Neo Nazi groups.

[beninho]

https://twitter.com/RayDalio/status/1574793756720730115?t=7jtDMCb5h2I7pO_6Joji4w&s=19

Interesting

[navyblueshorts]

https://twitter.com/RayDalio/status/1574793756720730115?t=7jtDMCb5h2I7pO_6Joji4w&s=19

Interesting

Yeah. Heard him on the radio this morning saying much the same. Hmm. Who to believe? The founder of the largest hedge fund on the planet, or the Chancellor with his utterly relevant degree in History and Classics?

[JAS]

Maybe a bit conspiratorial but IF true then Jeez…

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gj_1mrSoVZ8&fbclid=IwAR2YScscUIOkH3MYB1SgCn-zVMw02TyYtl3C6GRVXdGnXBKors6mQQAjA7A

This is the kind of stuff investigative journos should be thoroughly investigating and trying to prove or disprove either way.

[super_realist]

Do we have any right wing apologists on here willing and able to explain, accompanied by empirical and irrefutable evidence that trickle down economics actually works (when I say works I mean benefits the majority of the population in the country where it is being applied)??

I don't see anyone defending it or thinking it's a good idea but I will say that for the majority of the Blair/Brown era the top rate of tax was also 40%.
Furthermore I don't want to hear a peep out of Welsh or Scotch devolved parliaments about cost of living, especially in Scotland where the tax rate is now 2% higher at each bracket and 5% higher for top earners.

This isn't just an issue in regards to Tory policy though as much as you might love to blame them for everything. I met an Austrian friend at a wedding at the weekend and gas prices there have risen 900%.

One rather obvious thing that can't be ignored is that tax cuts will almost always favour those who pay the most tax. Those who earn less pay less tax anyway.
For example I can earn five times more than someone, but I pay 12x more tax. Obviously tax cuts are going to favour me more than someone on less money, so it's a bit of a diversionary tactic and a bit of a non statement.

Aye I’m sure all those at their wits end here over energy, fuel and mortgage payments will feel so much better that somebody apparently says “Well it could be worse, in Austria (that’s non oil and gas producing Austria) people are having to cope with much worse”  That just the typical kind of whataboutery that Tories peddle that they think will make things feel better. If it wasn’t so tragic it’d be hilarious in its comedic value in illustrating just how out of touch they are.

The point is JAS that the likes of you seem to want to imply that the cost of living crisis (a genuine crisis for once ) is PURELY the result of Tory policy and is ONLY affecting the UK.
You søkt ever want to look further afield because although you do have genuine reason for Tory criticism it wouldn't suit your narrative to admit that other countries also are having a very hard time.

You mean a genuine crisis like the OPEC oil crisis of the 70s or the 2008 international banking crisis both of which screwed our economy at the time and which it always gets twisted as Labours fault. You cant have it both ways, if the 70's and 08 were Labours fault (because of how they did or didn't deal with those international crisis') then quid pro quo for the current mess...or does that not suit your narrative?
Also how odd to pick Austria as a comparison earlier, what about France? similar population to us and slightly more dependent on Russian oil and gas due to a proportion of their Nuke power plants having big maintenence schedules at the moment. My daughter, who lives just off the west side of Paris confirmed to me that her utility bills have gone up 6% in the past year.

My point Jas was that you blame the Tories for everything and completely ignore global issues.
The Yen and Euro have also gone down against the pound.
US interest rates are higher and we all take a lead from them.

I'm not trying to defend the government, they have a litany of bad mistakes going back to Covid policies, crazy energy policies etc but the way you write is as if EVERYTHING that we are currently experiencing is as a result of Tory policy.

I haven't ever blamed the 70's on just Labour, but similar to the Tories today they made their contribution.

You need a bit more balance and a bit less Owen Jones.

PS, your daughter is obviously very fortunate, my ex colleagues at Total aren't experiencing such small rises.

[navyblueshorts]

Think you're missing the key point here, Sups. This issue, now, is entirely of our own making. This Government have actively introduced an uncosted (at least, we have to assume as such because they've deliberately avoided any scrutiny on the detail) budget, against the advice of all and sundry who have forgotten more about global finance than these pygmies have ever known. This is a homegrown crisis at the moment.

It's official - we have the first actual Idiocracy on the planet. Not sure others will follow.

[JAS]

With respect Supes I don’t ignore global issues, I’m well aware of them. It’s not global issues that are the problem per se, it’s how govts CHOOSE to deal with them and since 2010 the encumbent government HAS made some very poor choices namely 1. Austerity 2. Brexit 3. Attitude to Russia influenced by dirty oligarch money sloshing around London meaning International diplomacy bereft of any firm leadership in the face of i) Russian invasion of Crimea in 2014, ii) state sponsored poisonings in London & Salisbury 4. Brexit negotiations & proroguing parliament as well as risking peace in Ireland. 5. Jettisoning PMs via no confidence motions at a similar cadence that Chelsea FC jettison Managers 6. Pandemic response resulting in 6th highest death rate in world and probably the best country in the world for spivs making money out of PPE sales 7. Management of utility pricing post pandemic 8. The cherry on the cake….on top of all that, tax cuts for those that don’t need it to be paid for by ordinary people over the next decade, conceived in such a way that they’ve also managed to roll in the biggest mortgage hike in decades to accompany the inflationary spiral. I’m sure ive missed some but in the interests of balanced feel free to critique the above list and tell me which of the above are untrue or unfair assertions.

[beninho]

Tge BOE had to step in and stop an absolute clusterfffk especially with pensions. Yet still no acceptance that they made a mess of this.

Trussy was also awful on the local radio stations. As bad as any politician ever. That fracking nonsense will also kill them.

Yet people still can't see tge fault in them. Which is strange.

[beninho]

So is next plan to not increase benefits for those unable to work in order to fund tge tax cuts?

[beninho]

33point lead in a poll for Labour. 33!

[beninho]

Another massively stupid thing from Truss is she keeps talking about the max bill of £2500. Which is just wrong. Wither she doesn't know or just makes mistakes

[Soul Requiem]

33point lead in a poll for Labour. 33!

I cancelled my membership on Monday and am in the process of joining the Lib Dems.

[JAS]

33point lead in a poll for Labour. 33!

I cancelled my membership on Monday and am in the process of joining the Lib Dems.

Did you not feel the urge to hang in there Soul? With the rout that could come you could have been catapulted toward (shadow) Cabinet before the decade is out ;-)

[Soul Requiem]

33point lead in a poll for Labour. 33!

I cancelled my membership on Monday and am in the process of joining the Lib Dems.

Did you not feel the urge to hang in there Soul? With the rout that could come you could have been catapulted toward (shadow) Cabinet before the decade is out ;-)

Economic ineptitude is the one thing I cannot stand by. I feel i'd have a better grasp of things than either Truss or Kwarteng. The shadow cabinet could well be yellow before the decade is out.

[BlueCoverman]

The way things are going we will all be toast by then…

[pedro]

What a rant from Putin today. He has totally lost it. Same rhetorics as with Hitler. What a belittled psychopath. Hope somebody takes him down soon.

[BlueCoverman]

The rant today removed all remaining doubt for me that Putin would have little hesitation in pushing the nuclear button. I fear for what happens next.

[beninho]

Trussy is awful. Kwasi was celebrating with the bankers afterwards, but someone else has defended it by also saying property developers were there. Thats fine, everyone loves them!

Boris was bad, but he was wedded to an ideological view. He was probably to easily swayed and a bit eager to please.

Truss is a bit tory Corbyn. They need ger gone or she kills the party.

[beninho]

45p reduction scrapped. Unsure how the Chancellor can keep his job. That wasn't what spooked the markets though. But it was a politically poor move.

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