Bowe v Lewis....Great wins vs Longevity..

Been thinking about this lately...I think Bowe is hard done to in his ranking vs Lewis...

Lewis is a great Heavy but his record is padded with sloppy seconds and thirds...

Ruddock spanked off Tyson twice...Holy sullied by Bowe....Tua post Ibeabuchi....Vitali lucked out against him and is probably on paper his best win..Tyson was spent..

Lost to Mercer (in my opinion)....Mccall...and Rahman...

For Bowe. Beating an unbeaten Holy is a truly terrific win and winning a trilogy before Tyson v Holy is pretty stunning....An unbeaten Jorge Gonzales was considered by many to be a future star and he took his 0..

Gonzales did flop after but many fighters do when their confidence is shattered..

If I wanted to I could chuck in a prime Golota..But I won't..

Strange isn't it...There is a case for Jones Jr being the best 168 pounder above Calzaghe...A great win over Toney is better than Lacy and Kessler..on its own..

Always thought we give too much credit for longevity...Hearns apart...Nunn's wins over Kalambay...Barkley and Tate are better than anything Hagler did over 7 years....Though Hagler's previous puts him above him.

Do I have Lewis above Bowe...Yes...But sometimes I think maybe I shouldn't.

Bowe never truly lost in his prime...Still contend he wins the 2nd fight with Holy had the skydiver not flew in...(Holy was gassing) and beat more fighters in theirs including a Top 10/15 one...Twice..

Lewis wouldn't have beat Holy in 1991/1992.

I think when Lewis dismantled Mike Tyson he mentioned that he had got better with age whereas Mike Tyson was past his best. It seems some fighters have periods where they seemed unbeatable - Mike Tyson is an example - when he was young and hungry he was ferocious. I don't think anyone has reached that level of ferocity.

Lewis is top five for me whilst Bowe is just outside the top fifteen. It's not even really a debate for me who should rate higher.

Aside from Holyfield the Bowe resume is very thin, the fact he was happy fighting for the WBO title says it all really, he had no desire to test himself and that matters. He was being comprehensively outboxed by Golota twice before the Pole couldn't resist going low.

Lewis beat everyone there was to beat during his era (Bowe ducking aside) and whilst lacking real top drawer quality his record his full of very good heavyweights. Rahman and McCall stop him slotting in behind Ali but overall combining his ability, longevity and strong record he's more than deserving of a top five placing.

Bowe's first 2 defences of the titles he'd won from Holyfield were laughable. A 34-year old shot to bit Dokes who'd just turned up for the pay day and Jesse Ferguson who had a similar record to Trussy's favourite heavy opponent, Dereck Chisora. No matter which way you spin this, those 2 fighters did not belong in the same ring as Bowe.

I do not think I have ever wanted a Heavyweight Fight more than I wanted Lewis against Bowe. Personally I think Lennox always had Riddick's number. But those that know suggest the Futch-trained Bowe would have had enough for the fairly raw by comparison Lewis at the time. Later Lewis destroys Bowe. Damn Rock Newman and his stupid suggestion of throwing the WBC Belt in the bin!!

However, the Golota fights suggest that Bowe couldn't cope when put under constant pressure and it was only the Polish fighter's idiocy that meant Riddick didn't have more "Ls" on his resume. Golota had him twice before going for Gentleman's Vegetables.

He beat some fairly decent fighters fairly easily but his resume is thin - only Holyfield stands out on it. The rest are lower-level faded ex-champs or never-weres. And Herbie Hide, who was really a Cruiser-sized heavy, and that was never going to be a fair fight! Credit goes to Riddick for winning against the peak and unbeaten Holyfield, but did he really do that much else?

When you think about it Bowe is the only Heavyweight since Ali did Foreman to beat an alltime great Heavy in his prime...The Tyson Douglas beat wasn't the same monster he was in 86...and sure McCall and Rahman knocked Lewis out...But McCall was pre Steward and Rahman a lottery win...

Sanders fans may disagree with me.

Bowe fought a prime Holy..

In no way am I disparaging Lennox..Top 10 for me...

Just Bowe's win over Holy isn't credited enough.

Bowe's star shone VERY brightly, but for a very short time. His lack of dedication to training was his biggest downfall. I think with the right team around him and a different attitude he could have been extremely good, possibly ending his career undisputed and unbeaten; unfortunately as Marvelous said "It's difficult to get up to train when you're in silk pyjamas".

To be fair I think Riddick did the hard yards in training up until the point that Fan Man descended, when a Holyfield who'd got his second wind pulled an unlikely win out of the bag. If that doughnut hadn't fallen into the ring, who knows? After then I think he realised he could beat most opponents whilst cutting corners, and was surprised by a fierce, foul and brutal adversary in Golota. Peak Bowe probably would have done a similar job on him as Lennox did.

I think it was more a case of "what if?" with Bowe, than "wasn't he brilliant". Shame, as he could have been very good indeed as he had the size, the power, and also incredible inside work for such a big guy.

I guess you can argue that Bowe never lost in his prime, Truss, but that doesn't count for all that much when your prime lasts about five fights and features only one top opponent. As Bounce says, those two defences in 1993 were hardly top drawer and within a couple of years of that he was already losing the battle of the bulge.

And Gonzalez was rubbish in the pros, and looked awful against Bowe. I believe we've been over this throughout the years

If you believe Bowe's version of events, he lost motivation after losing that second fight against Holyfield due to him being frozen out by the WBC, WBA and IBF because of the trash can stunt and the fact that Newman was persona non grata with them. Claims he was basically frozen out of facing the better Heavyweights post-1993 and was forced to go down the WBO route.

Although some decent fighters were occasionally picking up WBO titles in the early to mid nineties in the lower weights, at Heavyweight the belt was still seen as (at best) the very poor cousin of the big three. Strange vagary of the division, but I'd argue that even in 2022 it hasn't managed to shake off that perception when it comes to the Heavyweights. In other weight classes the WBO titlist has occasionally been seen as the best in the division or managed to unify with other titles across a long reign. But at Heavyweight, even when the titles have been split, I'd say more often than not the WBO holder has looked like the odd one out and seldom become a star off the back of it.

We know for a fact that Holyfield request that Bowe vacate the WBO to make their third fight happen, because he didn't want to risk winning the WBO belt himself for fear that it would prevent him getting a ranking with the other three bodies, and Moorer infamously ditched the WBO with some very disparaging comments about the title...So there may be some truth in what Bowe said. But who knows for sure?

Anyway, Bowe was a great talent with some supreme gifts. A very natural boxer who made up for a lack of agility and speed with excellent (in his short peak years, at least) stamina and inside skills for a man of his size. Some similarities with Fury, I guess. He mastered Holyfield but Evander wasn't a bad styles match up for him, and that will always be the issue with rating Bowe - just didn't see him against enough styles and / or genuinely top opponents to really gauge him.

He can't realistically be anywhere near Lewis in the ratings, any more than Vernon Forrest can be above someone like Miguel Cotto, for instance, despite Vernon having the distinction of absolutely dominating a prime, unbeaten Mosley whereas Cotto only just scraped by a slightly shopworn version a few years down the line. Their respective performances against Mosley are one thing, but outside of that Cotto's record piddles all over Forrest's.

As for the fight against Lewis itself had it happened, I've got nothing original to say there and I suspect a lot of people have a similar line of thought: Bowe probably favourite anywhere up to 1993/1994. It's a pick'em for the next year or two after that. By 1996 onwards Lewis wins. Timing would have been crucial.

88Chris05 wrote:I guess you can argue that Bowe never lost in his prime, Truss, but that doesn't count for all that much when your prime lasts about five fights

I keep seeing Billy Conn in top 5 175 lists....He defend his title twice ??..

Struggling to see anyone on Lewis record that Bowe in 92/93 doesn't beat...

Like I said Lewis doesn't beat a 1992 Holyfield...Whatever the situation with the belt trashing Holyfield 2 was a better fight than the Lewis that gets trashed by McCall a few months later..

Gonzales was crap after the event...He was highly regarded at the time...Like Bruno before Witherspoon...Quality win.

I understand you guys disagree and that is okay.

But Holy is worth four of Lewis best wins..

I don't think Lewis losing to McCall necessarily means he loses to Holyfield, the mentality he goes into those fights with is completely different and I can't imagine he'd be so reckless against Evander.

You make some valid points however; Conn is rated far too highly at light heavyweight, the majority of his career was at Middleweight, he fought a lot of over the weight fights there not to be confused with fighting at 175lbs.

You're giving Bowe far too much credit for being pretty damn good on two or three nights and that is it ultimately, who cares about Gonzalez for isntace the guy was not suited to the pro game.

Steward saw he left himself wide open by telegraphing his right hand...His balance needed fixing too..

He was outboxed by Bruno handily..Before the usual Bruno tank emptied.

Insulting to Evander to say he doesn't wipe out the Pre 94 Lewis..

Is that before or after he lost to Michael Moorer?

You know five months before Lewis lost to McCall.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Struggling to see anyone on Lewis record that Bowe in 92/93 doesn't beat...

Gonzales was crap after the event...He was highly regarded at the time...Like Bruno before Witherspoon...Quality win.

I don't have any objections with anyone who'd take a 1992 Bowe to beat all of Lewis' opponents, but ultimately Lewis actually did beat them whereas Bowe didn't. Let's not forget that Mike Tyson is, according to some fans, also invincible in these fights which never happened - but turns out it wasn't that simple in real life. I know you're not arguing for Bowe ahead of Lewis, rather that it should be closer than is commonly stated...Just not sure I can agree given how thin Bowe's record is outside of Holyfield.

Talent and records are two different things, of course, so that might not have stopped Bowe beating Lewis up to 1994...Albeit I still think Bowe is only a very narrow favourite at the best of times. Have always suspected that he was a little spooked by Lewis and I don't think Lewis pre-Steward was THAT different to the one under Manny. Either way, that should have been Bowe's time to strike.

As for Gonzalez, well yeah we're calling him crap after the event, but that doesn't necessarily mean we're wrong. He was an accomplished amateur and expected to give Bowe a decent contest, but we've got the luxury of hindsight, know a lot more about him now than we did then and can see that he was a bang-average pro. No notable wins before Bowe, badly outclassed during the fight itself, and then nothing but abject failure afterwards.

Still, no axe to grind with Bowe. Very talented fighter and a proper treat to watch when he was at his best. Just a shame he didn't live the life. The 1990s had its moments, but it should have been the decade to seriously challenge the 1970s for all-time Heavyweight supremacy. Outside of Tyson's prison stint, Bowe's early fall from grace is probably the primary reason why it never quite hit those heights.