The Greats That Got Away Dos: Lewis v Bowe

Another one about great fights that didn't happen, which means technically this might count as a series. However I don't want it to go the same way as the rowley and tuna threads: Well written, informative, insightful, largely ignored. That's why this time, instead of comparing the modern politicing of Mayweather and Pacquiao to the old day skullduggery of Burley and Sugar Ray Robinson, we're keeping it new school with some 90's big men.

You never know, this one might even coax azania out of whichever tight gap it is that someone told him was too narrow to fit a human through, prompting him to throw himself into it.

Last time the story of the fight not happening was down to colour, the mob, money and a refusal of one fighter to risk his ethics. This time I honestly don't know how or why this fight never happened.

Let's get this straight: Two big, powerful, undefeated heavyweights. Both English speakers as their first language (well, sort of in Bowe's case) one of them American. Bowe coming off a fight of the year performance in clobbering Holyfield's title away from him. Lewis mowing down Razor Ruddock in violent fashion in the previous month. There was spite, too. Lewis beat Bowe to the gold medal. But Bowe thought the stoppage was premature! This fight really did sell itself. No doubt it would've been huge. After his brilliant first encounter with Holyfield the two went face to face. Lewis as a ringside guest in a suit, Riddick with his new belt and the adrenaline flowing. The meeting went...as you'd expect: Lewis stayed extremely calm, took it in his stride. Riddick seemed very pumped up and looked ready for a fight there and then.

After the confrontation Lewis was asked about it, he said "I looked into Riddick Bowe's eyes and I seen absolute fear. He fears me. I think he's gonna side step me." As it happened Lewis was of course correct in his prediction of Bowe sidestepping him, but was he correct about Bowe fearing him? The way things went makes it look like a yes, but there's one more ingredient.

Rock Newman. Bowe's manager was the one who staged Bowe putting his WBC belt in the bin. He said “They didn't strip us, we stripped them!” What makes the world go around more than money? Nothing. What would Lewis v Bowe make? Loadsa money. What's better than loadsa money? Loads more money! Yeah Newman Bowe could make a big amount against Lewis, but he could also lose, and a big exciting heavyweight champion could make money against anyone. Anyone happened to mean reputation enhancing Dokes and Fergussen blowouts before old man Evander upset the apple cart and got revenge. Otherwise maybe the Bowe could've gone on for a long time being milked and knocking over more contenders while Lewis was seen as a paper champ by the US boxing circles.

Fights that never happened leave only questions. Was Bowe scared? Was it all Newman's fault it didn't happen? Was it a mistake? In hindsight we can see how much better Lewis would become, and how much worse Bowe would become. We know the weaknesses in Lewis that hadn't yet been ironed out by Manny Steward. The only man around at the time who knew things nobody else did was in Bowe's corner. I read an extract from an old interview with Eddie Futch where he talks about Lennox, and he basically states several things that Lennox should be trained to do if he wants to be the best. These included: "use his jab and set up his opponents with combonations" " use a good hook off the jab" "utlize his uppercut better" "He is a big man, maybe not big enough, I would like to see him bigger, but no bigger then 245, he would be better off at that weight. He will have more mobility" " I think that Lewis will beat Tyson if they fight, all he would have to do is keep Mike in the center of the ring, I think he knocks him out."
Oh look, each of those things turned out to be 100% true. If anyone could see the route to Lewis' downfall it was Futch and he was on Bowe's side.

So who do you pick? Remember, this is no prime for prime fantasy fight, this is 1993, just afew months after Holyfield v Bowe. Lewis might be coming in under 230lbs. He still crossed his feet at times. He couldn't fight on the inside, certainly nowhere near as well as Bowe. Bowe, still young and motivated, coming in after a career best win and with a chance at olympic revenge. There's always the question of whether he'd come in at his best or not, but I think for this one we'd see the best version of Riddick. Riddick Bowe vs Lennox Lewis, the battle of the olympians....

Given the subject matter I would think you luring Gordy from under the Lennox Lewis duvet would be a bigger fear, however let’s not let that discourage you JBW it is another excellent piece in what I hope does become a series. Is interesting Bowe Lewis, think the way their subsequent careers went with Lewis scaling some heights bar the odd mishap and Bowe’s falling off a cliff the common perception seems to be Bowe was running scared and would have been a certain scalp for Lewis.

Have never been convinced myself, whilst Lewis was coming off his excellent Ruddock win, he was nowhere near the fighter he was to become under Steward and was prone to lapses of concentration and struggles with guys he had no real business struggling with around this period. Not only that but should never be overlooked that whilst his prime was a brief one at his best Bowe was a fine heavyweight, decent power, good chin and excellent mobility for a big guy, at his best potentially a tough night for anyone and certainly a work in progress heavy like Lewis.

However if all this suggests I see a Bowe win, I am not so sure, maybe reading too much into things but I can’t quite shake the belief that Bowe was in some way rattled by Lewis, have never been overly convinced by the idea he dumped the belts solely at Newman’s bidding or to make bigger money elsewhere as it doesn’t really seem the done thing and one would think he would relish the opportunity to put right the Olympic result. That said at the time the fight could and should have happened think I would still give Big Daddy Bowe the edge but not with any great confidence.

Good thread and a worthy addition mate.

I think Bowe would have won when the fight was mooted because at that stage he was just the more rounded, more experienced and better overall fighter closer to his peak. Ive always felt that at that point in time Lewis was still a fair way from his peak and wasn’t as experienced as Bowe in the pro ranks. Lewis subsequent fights with Bruno, McCall and Mercer leads me to believe he just would not have been good enough at that point to get the better of Bowe.

However its worth recognising that those fights had yet come to pass, so the weaknesses were not yet as obvious. Lewis was a highly rated amateur, unbeaten and coming off an impressive victory so there may be some grounds to the belief Bowe and his team were not particularly keen on facing him. I do think they had their eyes on a Holyfield rematch though more than anything else and didn’t want to risk upsetting that lucrative fight. But its hard to imagine that Bowe or his management would be intimidated by the Lewis that struggled with Bruno and Mercer and was KOed by McCall.

In essence I think you are talking about two top talents, one of which was in or around his peak and the other who was maybe a good 6 years from his peak. So for me, Bowe wins circa 1992/3.

Great article again, JBW. As Rowley says, I hope it's merely one edition of what will be, no doubt, a top class series.

I've gone back and forth on this one a hell of a lot. The form line would have had to fvour Bowe in 1993, but I do think that Lewis had some kind of pyschological hold over him, too. Whenever Lewis was around, Bowe did seem flustered and, dare I say it, maybe even a little bit intimidated by him. Bowe in his early years was actually a pretty amiable character, but tended to lose his cool when the issue of Lennox reared its head.

If Bowe kept his head, however, I think the sensible money for a 1993 clash would have been on Riddick to take it on points. Lewis was no counter puncher and I think the Bruno fight is a decent indication of where his problems may lay had he boxed Bowe in 1993; in that fight he didn't press at all and consistently let Bruno get off first. He only needed to slip in to one gear higher to get Frank out ofthere, of course, but Frank was no Bowe! If Lewis boxed with a similar attitude against Bowe, letting the American get off first with the jab, then he's in for a long night. Bowe's jab was the best in boxing at that time and almost impossible to counter.

Bowe by a tight decision, maybe a majority one or something like that, in what I think would have been a fairly cagey fight.

I wonder if they actually sell Lewis duvet sets?

Manny gets a lot of credit for turning Lewis into this more rounded fighter. There's undoubtedly truth in this, but personally i think its a little overstated... Ie pre manny steward gets written off as a green accident waiting to happen, when in reality he just had a few rough edges. I think Lewis got a little gunshy from the mccall fight.. enough for him to realise he wasnt invincible, and to be more strategic in his approach. steward helped him undoubtedly on some technical points but I think McCall helped him more... Even if steward had shown McCall the money shot.

I think most ducking is about career management not a fighter being scared, but I always got the sense that Lewis was under bowe's skin, and I think that might have played a part in any fight between the two. Bowe had certainly matured quicker as a pro and was a genuine talent, but he was hittable and hurtable, and I see Lewis winning this fight more often than not, even at that time.

At that time Bowe was looking the business and Lewis as we all know the best was yet to come. I always thought Bowe would of had the edge but throughout his career Lennox performed well against fellow big men. Yes struggled at times with Bruno and a still useful Tony Tucker but he was a novice and yet got the job done in his immediate fights that replaced a Bowe match up. On the other hand Bowe did not produce another great performance and peaked against Holyfield. However, even in his greatest moment he still struggled at times against an older, much smaller, out gunned opponent (albeit a great one) that he could not put away.

I'm thinking this is a fight that Bowe's loses rather than Lennox winning as I doubt he would be as aggressive with Lewis as he was against Evander. This for me is where the fight would be lost as Bowe would need to put Lennox under pressure, inside exchanges where Bowe was very good for such a big man and not let Lewis build up any momentum or confidence. Early rounds will be a jab fest with Lewis slowly becoming more settled and looking to get his right hand off behind his jab. Bowe would have his moments but if he could not put away a tired and beaten smaller man in Holyfield I don't see him producing one punch power to trouble Lennox.

Lewis stopping a tiring Bowe after landing one right hand too many around round 9.

in 1993 i was only 8, i really do need to go back and watch abit more of bowe to get a better understanding, ive only really gone back and watched the trilogy with holyfield

although i do remember both the golota fights, where bowe was pasted round the ring majority of the fight untill golota wanted to claim his bet he had on bowe

A lot of depends on what Bowe turns up I guess. If he turns up like a slob without commitment he certainly risks losing, and he started letting himself go with a couple of easy defences. Would he have taken Lewis that lightly or remained fully focused is crucial. The version that fought Holyfield in the first fight I would make a decent favourite over Lewis at that point. I would make Holyfield favourite over him at that point also. I don’t think Lewis had reached that level quite yet. I don’t think its really until the late 1990s that we start seeing the best of Lewis and I think Bowes greater experience would also give him an edge. Bowe had a fairly short peak and started to slide pretty rapidly after his triumph over Holyfield but if he took Lewis completely seriously then you would have to think it’s a case of a Lewis that’s a good few years away from his best catching Bowe when Bowe was pretty much at the top of his game.

To respond to manos and compelling at the same time... The bowe back catalogue pretty much starts with Holyfield.. Prior to that it was the usual diet of stiffs and candy popping aging 80's names. Bowe's name is pretty much made on the Holyfield trilogy. No doubt the burgers impacted his career thereafter, but i feel his flame flickered very briefly, for so many good judges to have such confidence in him.

His “peak” was short for sure and in an overall sense of evaluating his career it definitely harms him. But the time he was scheduled to face Lewis was pretty much right around when he was at his best, albeit briefly. After Holyfield 1 he lined up a few soft defences which probably facilitated his ballooning weight and half hearted training. Would he have done this if he was facing a highly rated upcoming prospect like Lewis as opposed to someone like Jesse Ferguson? Im not sure he would but its impossible to know. He didn’t exactly get himself into peak condition for the Holyfield rematch, although maybe he was overconfident after the first fight. If he kept in the condition he was for Holyfield 1 then hes just the better, more experienced and more complete boxer between himself and Lewis at that stage and I would expect him to beat Lewis. If he comes in out of shape and unmotivated then Lewis certainly capable of winning, although even a fairly out of shape Bowe still managed to only drop a narrow decision to Holyfield so its still no gimme and certainly no worse than Lewis against McCall or Mercer.

Fan Man has a lot to answer for here, methinks!

Lewis must have been tearing his hair out in late 1993 when Bowe dropped that decision in his second fight with Holyfield - it pretty much guaranteed that a third rubber match was always going to be a priority for both camps, or certainly a higher priority than a fight against Lewis at the very least.

Bowe absolutely bossed the early going of that second fight and, just before Fan Man made his entrance, had started the seventh round superbly, teeing off on a tired-looking Holyfield with that beautiful jab. Holyfield was starting to look pretty weary and out of ideas. Then came the sudden halt which seemed to completely turn things on their head - upon resuming the action, Evander looked refreshed, as if the break had done him the world of good, and Bowe just couldn't get that momentum back for the remainder of the fight (I still think he deserved to nick it by a point or so, or at least pull out the draw, but that's another story).

Had Bowe gone 2-0 against Evander after that one, the calls for him to face Lewis in 1994 while Lennox still had his WBC belt would have reached fever pitch. A second fight with Holyfield ahead of a (re)unification with Lewis was understandable first time out, I guess, but a third fight with Evander after winning the first two ahead of that Lewis fight would have been pretty hard to justify, I imagine.

History tells us there respective peaks were at different times, but bowe's peak was That trilogy. Who else did he beat to be so confident he beats Lewis. He matched up physically well against holy, where is the evidence he could do that to Lewis? Lewis was soon to be poor against 2 rock like chins in mercer and mcall. Bowe didn't have that. He was a smoother looking boxer then Lewis, but motivated or not, he was unconvincing against tubbs, out on his feet against herbie hide and embarrassed by Golota. Holyfield himself could blow hot and cold... he managed to lose to Moorer in the middle of the bowe trilogy.

I think Lewis bowe at that time was a tough fight to call, I 'm just pointing out that this prime bowe, wasn't that tested himself. He looked the part but we all know that means jack when a big guy tests your whiskers. I'd say, holyfield aside, Lewis had fought as much if not more live opposition, at the time the fight was mooted.

Well I wouldnt reall see why one would choose to look at things aside from a “Holyfield aside” perspective because Holyfied was a clear level up from anything Lewis had faced and certainly superior to say Mercer or McCall. I don’t really consider Bowe untested because he put on a terrific performance against a then unbeaten Holyfield. It wasn’t as if Holyfield didn’t show up either. The fight was a classic bout between two heavyweights operating around the peak of their game.

I would be inclined to agree with you that if one was looking at how Bowe fares against other top heavyweights overall then it might be generous to solely judge him on his first fight with Holyfield which is a very small sample size to go off.

But Im looking specifically at Bowe in 1992/3 and Lewis in 1992/3. I suppose it boils down to me thinking Lewis had the more question marks over him. I find it hard to see how if Bowe comes in as well conditioned and motivated as Holyfield that Lewis beats him because for me Lewis goes on to show far more actual technical frailties as opposed to Bowe who basically becomes a slob, but had displayed few technical weaknesses up to then. The Golota fights for instance were years after Bowe/Lewis was supposed to happen and Bowe was a good 20lb of lard heavier and wasn’t inclined to train.

If we are talking about Bowe coming in as he did against Holyfied, then I think there is enough reason to be confident he beats Lewis at that stage because whatever issues or question marks there were over Bowe they surely couldn’t be any less than the actual ones that Lewis would go on to display up until Steward had got a hold of him. This isn’t a given he comes in shape though, so that for me is probably the most crucial aspect. But in the simplest terms I think Bowe at his best was better than Lewis at his best in 1992/3.

Dont forget you can watch all those wonderful 90s boxing matches (highlights) here

https://www.606v2.com/t21735-1990s-heavyweight-boxing-highlights

Shame there is no Lewis v Bowe to add to that list though

If the fight had taken place as it should have, Lewis having just wrecked Ruddock and Bowe beating Holyfield I can understand the optimism that Bowe is the favourite but the facts could not be ignored. Bowe was consistently out of shape; although a big man did not have the fire power to put away a smaller, older and very hittable opponent like Holyfield which does questions how hard Bowe really did hit and Bowe was definitely not keen to face Lewis.

Yes Lennox still had some novice ways but had looked solid, concussive puncher, beaten far more live opposition and a far superior athlete. If Riddick did not get the damage done on Lewis in the first couple of rounds which I then I think the factors I have listed above would have come in to play.

If the fight had taken place further down the line then Lewis would have been even more a decisive winner as Bowe's career showed that he only turned up for one big fight and fumbled his way through a couple of others.

mikeymax71 wrote:If the fight had taken place as it should have, Lewis having just wrecked Ruddock and Bowe beating Holyfield I can understand the optimism that Bowe is the favourite but the facts could not be ignored. Bowe was consistently out of shape; although a big man did not have the fire power to put away a smaller, older and very hittable opponent like Holyfield which does questions how hard Bowe really did hit and Bowe was definitely not keen to face Lewis.

Yes Lennox still had some novice ways but had looked solid, concussive puncher, beaten far more live opposition and a far superior athlete. If Riddick did not get the damage done on Lewis in the first couple of rounds which I then I think the factors I have listed above would have come in to play.

If the fight had taken place further down the line then Lewis would have been even more a decisive winner as Bowe's career showed that he only turned up for one big fight and fumbled his way through a couple of others.

Well I certainly cant agree that Lewis had beaten the more live opposition. Bowe had just taken the 0 off the reigning undisputed heavyweight champion in a very impressive performance to boot. I think you are selling him a little short on that win and performance. I think your also selling him short on power. He might not have been as big a hitter as Lewis but using an near peak iron chinned warrior like Holyfield as the basis (he did knock him out subsequently in any event) is unfair I think. Lewis couldnt put away a far older version many years later either. I certainly believe Bowe had the power to take Lewis out, who wasnt the most cast ironed chin himself.

Not selling Bowe short at all but he went in to that fight with every attribute in his favour, youth, size, power against a champion who was coming off poor performances against a couple of 40+ contenders and a blown up cruiserweight and far from convincing as a heavyweight champion at that point (yes he proved it afterwards but not at this point in time).

As for power we talking at that current point in time and as good a chin as Holyfield had, with all of the advantages he had, Bowe was nearer to taking out Evander with all the leather he had landed on him than Bert Cooper was how landed far less and several leagues below as a fighter.

As for knocking him out later in their careers, well that was helped by Holyfield being more aggressive against Bowe than he was against Lewis therefore leaving more openings to be hit.

Well while you say you aren’t selling Bowe much of what you are writing appears to me to be doing that. For instance Im not sure why you would consider Lewis as having fought more live opposition in 1992/3 when Bowe had just beaten the number 1 man in the division. If that’s not sufficient to qualify as better than what Lewis faced I don’t know what is? If one is going to debate the various credentials Holyfield had as an opponent or heavyweight champion at the time then I think its relevant to acknowledge that Lewis himself had not faced anyone as good and hardly fared much better than Bowe did against a near 40 year old Holyfield 7 years later when Lewis was considered a more accomplished fighter. I just don’t see the criticisms of Bowes failure to put Holyfield away in the first fight as being much of an issue considering Lewis couldn’t do it either and Holyfield was extremely tough to KO. Holyfield showed a great chin in the fight and fought extremely well. Bowe was just better on the night. To me the power issue isn’t a big factor because I think both guys have the power to take each other out. I would rate Holyfield as having a better chin that Lewis.

Lewis by KO for me, even then.

Never rated Bowe too highly, and think the scorecards are about level when Lewis flattens him, only for the ref to step in as a dazed Bowe struggles to his feet.

That version of Lewis I'd predict to win but not with the utmost confidence, but the later version of Lewis takes Bowe apart, for my money.

The Holyfield aside, manos was for the reason i gave, Holy's size. It was one fight against one fighter he had huge physical advantages over. It tells us he can perform on the big stage against a great smaller man... It doesn't paint a picture of how he'd handle Lewis.

At the time this fight was mooted, Lewis had beaten mason and ruddock and in 93 fought an aging tucker, but one that still only had the Tyson defeat on his ledger, and Bruno. I'm not claiming that's a world beating resume, but it has more meat on it than bowe's (no pun intended), other than the one great win over Holyfield. Of course that's a better win than anything Lewis had at that time, arguably ever. But the if the only fight i ever saw duran and hearns have was against each other, I might not draw a balanced view of their careers. I don't see how one great win makes bowe, even a fit and motivated one, so much more experienced and a shoe in for this fight.

I can see a case for bowe winning, I just think anyone thinking that any result here either way, is a safe bet, is wide of the mark

I think its worth looking at the skillset Bowe displayed against Holyfield as being relevant to how he would fare against Lewis, and the fact that despite being a different style fighter, Holyfield was considerably better than anything Lewis had faced. I just don’t think it makes sense to say there wasn’t much separating the pair apart from Bowe beating the unbeaten undisputed heavyweight champion of the world. I don’t think its as if Bowe had done nothing up to that point either. He still had serviceable wins against contenders. I don’t particularly think the Lewis/Bruno fight is a great endorsement of Lewis back then either because like Lewis struggled he wasnt able to particularly outjab Bruno and struggled with him until landing a huge shot. I tend to think the Lewis that fought Bruno would really struggle with Bowes jab. Had Lewis at the time been in or around his best years then Id give him more of a chance but I struggle to look past that he was still a fighter that was going to get knocked out by McCall, struggle with Bruno and go life and death with a Mercer that even an ancient Holmes could handle.

Naturally people will say Bowe was going to go on and waste a lot of his potential but I see that as just conditioning/motivation issues rather than technical issues.

But Manos, those issues matter in a fight. If Boew lacked motivaion or was out of condition surely they would have played a part in fighting a superb young athlete of a heavyweight who had already beaten him.

Bowe had great skills but he also had other factors which you yourself have alluded to that does affects how he performs.

As I said above, the condition Bowe shows up in is naturally crucial. But the time he is scheduled to face Lewis is just after he was pretty much at his best. So if ever he was going to be in good nick it was round about this time. That’s no certainty he does turn up in good shape, although even a poorly conditioned Bowe still pushed Holyfield to the wire. But I think hes is more likely to be motivated and in shape for a match against a dangerous opponent like Lewis that he has some beef with than Jesse Ferguson who he knows he can beat regardless. But we will never know. I just think at that stage in their respective careers Bowe had more going for him. He had actually become heavyweight world champion over a pretty good heavyweight. Lewis hadn’t really shown he had that in him at that stage in his career to the same degree. He looked against Tucker but the next couple of years I think indicated he maybe wasn’t really at the very highest level where Bowe, albeit briefly, showed he was. The bottom line for me is if they both go in close to their best then Bowe would win circa 1992/3. The worse condition Bowe comes in then naturally the more his chances diminish.

It would have been a great fight, similar guys in terms of physique, i think despite being a Bowe fan i would say Lewis was a little stronger but Bowe was meaner, he really fought with bad intentions and back then Lewis could be made to look sloppy. He had bad balance and seemed to go to sleep for rounds at a time, of course i think either could knock each other out. Bowe had a pretty poor defense, also Bowe as a pro had a pretty good chin but i'm not sure how good it would have been against a genuine puncher like Lewis. Bowe was down a lot as an amateur, Lewis had a bit of a mediocre chin especially in his skinnier days too. I reckon a KO in round 7 or 8 either way, though i edge towards Bowe, he was the more accomplished fighter and was defending the belts.

Thanks for all the responses...past 20!


My take on it, despite being a fan of Lennox, is that Bowe would take the win. I think his power is being underrated. Between them, Lewis and Bowe fought Holyfield five times. I think the best Holyfield either of them faced was the Holy from the first Bowe fight, then Holy from the second, then Holy from the third, then Holy from the second Lennox fight, then Holy from the first Lennox fight. This is conjecture, but quite simply he was getting older.

Now Bowe didn't stop the best Holyfield he faced, but he had him out on his feet towards the end and decked him. I believe he would've stopped him if not for the fan man descending from heaven unto the aid of God's most loyal warrior. He did stop him in the third. Lewis never looked like stopping him, although he did have him hurt a couple of times in the first fight. Lewis who was at his peak. So although I rate Lewis' punch higher than I rate Bowe's, lets not make out Bowe as a 90's Tyson Fury!

I would give Bowe the edge in workrate based on his warring efforts against Holyfield. I think it was on legendary nights, when Holyfield looked like he was losing early in the first fight, they weren't worried because they'd seen Bowe in sparring. They knew he was good but they knew he'd run out of gas too. Except this version of Bowe didn't run out of gas. He did it for 12. This is a presumption, but I can't see Bowe turning up overweight and unmotivated to fight Lewis.

He appeared to be the more naturally gifted infighter, and was using his jab wonderfully at the time. Although Lewis could punch, he wasn't setting up his opportunities so well back then. They each had the ability to knock each other out, but I'd pick Bowe's body with Futch's brain to effectively go to Lewis' body where possible and also out jab Lewis at times. Bowe UD

Although if this were a prime for prime fantasy fight, I think the result would be reversed, but that is not the nature of the greats that got away!

Rowley got about 4000 on his sell out lewis thread Jbw, so you've a way to go fella! my argument with manos was the using of Holyfield as the barometer. Lewis in 93 would probably have gone after holy, but when he fought him he was surprisingly conservative. Regardless, Styles and fights etc, 1 common opponent, is hardly definitive, it's a guide. Just like their amateur fight was a guide.

Personally, I think the young Lewis goes for bowe and might well take him out early. If he doesn't the fight is a pick em. I actually think prime motivated bowe would fair better than some think against the steward version of lewis, assuming the chess playing lennox came out, not the aggressive Golota/grant Lewis.

I agree that bowe had plenty of power and could ko Lewis, just think the reverse is the more likely result... bowe, smoother boxer, Lewis a better athlete stronger man

I wouldn’t use Bowes fight with Holyfield as the sole barometer. But its still a significant fight because of the skills and ability Bowe would need to utilise to beat a quality heavyweight like Holyfield. Fair enough, Lewis presents a different style, but did he display the kind of ability that Bowe did back at that stage in his career that would be relevant to a fight head to head? With the benefit of hindsight, I don’t think so. Had he gone on to dominate then I might think it was just a case of Lewis not getting the big fight to showcase his ability, but his fights with the likes of Tucker, Bruno, Mercer and McCall dontt make me think he was operating on the kind of level needed to beat the Holyfield or Bowe from Holyfield/Bowe 1.

The caveat is Bowes conditioning which nobody can say for sure. But if he comes to fight in good shape as he did with Holyfield then I make him a reasonable favourite over Lewis at that particular stage in their respective careers.

The thing is manos, 3 of those Lewis fights you highlight were against guys with the best chins of their generation, and he knocked the fourth guy out. I see your point, but the assumption appears to be that bowe's poorer performances were always motivation, and Lewis' down to technical inadequacies. Whatever you say, you're putting a lot of stock into bowe holy 1. Quite rightly in some respects, but there's nothing in there to say bowe could handle a big hard hitting heavy... Infact, nothing he did before or after demonstrates that. Bowe might well have beaten Lewis, but I really can't see how anyone could predict it with any degree of confidence. Whichever, we're entrenched on this one, all good healthy debate!

The one thing that Lewis did well was to raise himself for a dangerous opponent. He was already inside Bowe's head following on from his Olympics success, and he would not have taken Riddick lightly. There was always a bit of needle between them and I believe Lennox could have used this to his advantage.

I also see the Lewis from that era stopping an exhausted Bowe around rounds 9-11. If post-Golota, Bowe gets destroyed.

I think Lennox always had Riddick's number. It's such a shame they never ever got it on in the pro ranks.

milkyboy wrote:The thing is manos, 3 of those Lewis fights you highlight were against guys with the best chins of their generation, and he knocked the fourth guy out. I see your point, but the assumption appears to be that bowe's poorer performances were always motivation, and Lewis' down to technical inadequacies. Whatever you say, you're putting a lot of stock into bowe holy 1. Quite rightly in some respects, but there's nothing in there to say bowe could handle a big hard hitting heavy... Infact, nothing he did before or after demonstrates that. Bowe might well have beaten Lewis, but I really can't see how anyone could predict it with any degree of confidence. Whichever, we're entrenched on this one, all good healthy debate!

Yeah I do think the Holyfield fight is the most relevant one at that stage of their careers because it was a big step up and required a certain calibre to win the fight. I don’t really think you can put Lewis loss to McCall down to McCalls iron chin. It didn’t really factor. Lewis was taken out because McCall saw he left himself pretty open when he loaded up an overhead. This was evident also against Bruno (not necessarily a great chin) where Lewis was quite ragged at time throwing big shots that left himself vulnerable. He scored the KO over Bruno but he didn’t really outbox him to any great degree. Bruno out jabbed him in large parts of the fight. Mercer maybe you could say in that kind of a fight was certainly aided by an iron chin but again its Lewis struggling to control the fight and not really establishing a jab. A well past his best Holmes had an easier time controlling Mercer and was more convincing. So Im looking at these kind of factors also, not simply that Bowe beat Holyfield therefore must also beat Lewis. Yes the styles are different but I think around that time Bowe showed a superior level of skills to Lewis. Its not like Lewis was facing fighters of the calibre of Bowe or Holyfield at that stage either. Lewis was a bigger than Bowe I imagine but not the extent I think it matters. Bowe wasn’t any less durable than Lewis and you would have to think that either man could hurt or take the other out if they landed big shots. I think Bowe was just better skilled at that stage to find the openings.

Mr Bounce wrote:The one thing that Lewis did well was to raise himself for a dangerous opponent. He was already inside Bowe's head following on from his Olympics success, and he would not have taken Riddick lightly. There was always a bit of needle between them and I believe Lennox could have used this to his advantage.

I also see the Lewis from that era stopping an exhausted Bowe around rounds 9-11. If post-Golota, Bowe gets destroyed.

I think Lennox always had Riddick's number. It's such a shame they never ever got it on in the pro ranks.

If Bowe was in shape, Im not sure why he gets exhausted. He had gone the distance in a freneticly paced fight with Holyfield without any ill effect. Lewis didnt always start quickly or set a high pace himself either. Holyfield was a more energic fighter.

milkyboy wrote:The thing is manos, 3 of those Lewis fights you highlight were against guys with the best chins of their generation, and he knocked the fourth guy out. I

You can't seriously call Lewis McCall 2 a knockout? the guy was in no fit state to be in the ring, even then he was not hurt at all. It was disgraceful how he was made to fight in the condition he was in.

The point of naming those fights, was that he was never going to knock them out, but it doesn't mean he couldn't knock bowe out.

Mercer could be outboxed and was regularly, but Lewis didn't try, he got into a slugfest. Not smart, but no bigger pointer to a Lewis bowe fight, than bowe getting an iffy decision over tony tubbs. Lets look at Golota...batters a fat bowe, then batters a thin and by most accounts motivated bowe second time out. Lewis sparks Golota early the following year. So obviously Lewis beats bowe. Of course that was 'steward' lewis...but then so was mercer, and Lewis didn't do much boxing against either of them.

monty junior wrote:

milkyboy wrote:The thing is manos, 3 of those Lewis fights you highlight were against guys with the best chins of their generation, and he knocked the fourth guy out. I

You can't seriously call Lewis McCall 2 a knockout? the guy was in no fit state to be in the ring, even then he was not hurt at all. It was disgraceful how he was made to fight in the condition he was in.

The fourth guy was Bruno, so no, I wasn't calling Lewis McCall 2 a knockout, in fact I wasn't referring to it at all, monty

Klitschko knocked out Mercer...

I thought the Tucker performance was pretty good, knocked him down twice for the first time in his career and his his punches pretty well. Other than that Lewis' performances back then even against the punchbag Phil Jackson were pretty sloppy. I wouldn't take much stock in Bowe Golota 2 especially, Bowe was completely shot, he was cumbersome, slow, his punches had no snap anymore, couldn't get his jab going. Saying that he showed tremendous heart, one thing that Lewis never showed much of. Probably because he had a better defense to be fair though.

milkyboy wrote:

monty junior wrote:

milkyboy wrote:The thing is manos, 3 of those Lewis fights you highlight were against guys with the best chins of their generation, and he knocked the fourth guy out. I

You can't seriously call Lewis McCall 2 a knockout? the guy was in no fit state to be in the ring, even then he was not hurt at all. It was disgraceful how he was made to fight in the condition he was in.

The fourth guy was Bruno, so no, I wasn't calling Lewis McCall 2 a knockout, in fact I wasn't referring to it at all, monty

Woops

milkyboy wrote:The point of naming those fights, was that he was never going to knock them out, but it doesn't mean he couldn't knock bowe out.

Mercer could be outboxed and was regularly, but Lewis didn't try, he got into a slugfest. Not smart, but no bigger pointer to a Lewis bowe fight, than bowe getting an iffy decision over tony tubbs. Lets look at Golota...batters a fat bowe, then batters a thin and by most accounts motivated bowe second time out. Lewis sparks Golota early the following year. So obviously Lewis beats bowe. Of course that was 'steward' lewis...but then so was mercer, and Lewis didn't do much boxing against either of them.

Ive never argued that Lewis couldn’t knock Bowe out. Ive said he has the power to knock him, and most heavyweights out but it’s the application of that power that matters. The Golota fights were years after Bowe was scheduled to face Lewis and Golota was a headcase in any event. Lewis basically knocked him out whilst he was in the midst of some kind of breakdown. At that stage in their respective careers when Bowe looked pretty washed up and Lewis was starting to develop under Steward I would make Lewis the reasonable favourite. Bowe never fought Lewis at any stage so it goes without saying that they never fought anyone identical in style and ability as each other but I don’t think that means that other fights are deemed largely irrelevant on that basis. As with any hypothetical fight, there is a lot of conjecture involved and not much can be taken as given. We can only guess at the condition, motivation and strategy each fighter would employ. But I think the aspects that that can actual be analysed in some degree such as the levels both fighters were operating on, their respective performances, the skills they displayed at the time largely favour Bowe. He was coming off a genuine quality win against a top class heavyweight and that showcases a certain level of quality that he possessed at the time that Lewis didn’t display. If Lewis strolled through the fighters he faced in the couple of years after to display top level credentials then I would have more confidence in him, but I just don’t think he showed enough in those fights to warrant being rated as highly as Bowe at the time (when Bowe was fully fit/motivated). If the crux of the argument is that you cant tell for sure how one fighters fares against another based on other fights then yes, I agree you cant draw absolutes (can you ever in a hypothetical fight?). But from what was happening around that time that can be analysed in some shape or form I think it points towards a Bowe win.

Ok mate, I see your argument from a boxing perspective, I think bowe was mentally weaker, and from a 'fighting perspective' if I can make such a distinction I favour Lewis. As you say, all conjecture, let's agree to disagree and move on.

monty junior wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

monty junior wrote:

milkyboy wrote:The thing is manos, 3 of those Lewis fights you highlight were against guys with the best chins of their generation, and he knocked the fourth guy out. I

You can't seriously call Lewis McCall 2 a knockout? the guy was in no fit state to be in the ring, even then he was not hurt at all. It was disgraceful how he was made to fight in the condition he was in.

The fourth guy was Bruno, so no, I wasn't calling Lewis McCall 2 a knockout, in fact I wasn't referring to it at all, monty

Woops

My poor English monty... If id said 'other' not 'fourth' it might have made more sense... Might!

milkyboy wrote:Ok mate, I see your argument from a boxing perspective, I think bowe was mentally weaker, and from a 'fighting perspective' if I can make such a distinction I favour Lewis. As you say, all conjecture, let's agree to disagree and move on.

I would agree that Bowe was weaker, in the sense his discipline started to fall away soon after so the further into the 90s you get I think the more it favours Lewis. And it makes it difficult to predict the way Bowe would approach the fight in terms of seriousness. I think in Holyfield 1 he showed what he could do when he was on top of his game. I just think the time the fight was mooted was probably one of the few points in Bowes brief prime that Lewis could be catching Bowe at or close to Bowes best while Lewis was still some years off his own.

And the other unknown is whether the Olympic result had a psychological part to play in the fight. I always had a sense it would, and that lewis had an edge there...but could always work both ways, and make Lewis too confident and bowe better prepared. Damn these hypothetical match ups... Why couldn't they just have fought!

Yeah its a very significant fight to miss out on that could have had a huge impact on the way that era was remembered. If Bowe won, you would have to think he fades off regardless as his discipline just wasnt there. But it would be interesting to see what kind of impact it had on Lewis legacy. Timing is so crucial in boxing and Ive always thought that Lewis was a tad fortunte in that regards in relation to his key rivals in the 1990s. Once could argue that his failure to get the Bowe fight or the Holyfield/Tyson fights sooner maybe cost him that defining fight, but at the same time had he got them in the early 1990s he may well have lost them I think which would have changed how he was viewed dramatically. On the flip side had he got them and won them back then he probably becomes right up there with Louis and Ali.

It was all a bit of a mess really wasn't it, that nineties Heavyweight scene?

In terms of talent it was probably the only era to realistically compare to the seventies, but boxing politics, Tyson's struggles with the law, Bowe's love affair with KFC and Holyfield's dodgy ticker all played a role in that potentially brilliant era never really coming to the boil.

Lewis-Bowe, Lewis-Holyfield (a younger version), Tyson possibly reclaiming his titles from Holyfield in 1991 and then having to hold off the new era of behemoths in Bowe and Lennox; it's unlikely, given how evenly matched the lot of them were in several areas, but if one ofthose men had managed to come out as the clear cream of that impressive crop, then scribes and fans alike might just have been nudging Louis, Holmes etc down a couple of spaces to make way for them in their all-time Heavyweight lists.

Loving the debate, but if I wanted to blow "Lennox Lewis - Convince Me" into oblivion I could always play my ace: The Greats That Got Away: Pacquiao v Mayweather. A thread which would go on for all eternity.

Absolutely pointless fight. Bowe was scared stiff of Lewis and had been knocked by him as an amateur. How anyone think Bowe who was too scared to even fight Lewis could possibly beat him is beyond me but why am I not surprised on here the way people go on about Lewis! Shocking!

Gordy wrote:Absolutely pointless fight. Bowe was scared stiff of Lewis and had been knocked by him as an amateur. How anyone think Bowe who was too scared to even fight Lewis could possibly beat him is beyond me but why am I not surprised on here the way people go on about Lewis! Shocking!

People said the same before Rahman fought him.

Gordy wrote:Absolutely pointless fight. Bowe was scared stiff of Lewis and had been knocked by him as an amateur. How anyone think Bowe who was too scared to even fight Lewis could possibly beat him is beyond me but why am I not surprised on here the way people go on about Lewis! Shocking!

If you think so little of everyone's opinions on here why do you come on?

Mikes Tyson was scared stiff of Foreman if some reports are to be believed but i'd give the old man very little chance of winning had they fought.

...you just gave me an idea for a future greats that got away....