Colin Hart..Lost the plot over Tyson Fury ??

Apparently beating a 40 year old one dimensional champion and an Amateur boxer with dynamite power three times makes you the 6th best Heavyweight of alltime..

Apparently being decked by a roundhouse from a Cruiser and down four times by said Amateur boxer with dynamite hands makes you the most skilled boxer since Holmes in 78..Forget the gift over McDermott..

According to Colin Hart..

Really ??..Jeffries cleaned out Fitz..Corbett and Jack Sharkey so he is above Fury for a start...Marciano did Walcott twice and Charles twice..more than enough....Johnson wasn't top 5 or Frazier..They are streets ahead.

As for most skilled since Holmes...An in shape Buster Douglas had quicker hands...better feet and a brilliant jab..So he is more skilled for a start....Before you look at Holy and others.

Can Fury be top 6...Yes...He can beat Whyte..Joshua and Usyk...and we can think about it...But probably not then..

I might have dismissed Bowe to an extent and rightly so to an extent but he himself is streets ahead of Fury. Lennox Lewis would have toyed with him, against taller guys he utilised his right uppercut very well and was incredibly strong so fighting up close wouldn't be a concern.

The hype Fury is receiving for doing so little is absurd. He can be no higher than just inside an all time top twenty.

I have always thought of Fury as an oaf with a decent amount of boxing nous who is a big lump with not much power. He's an excellent salesman and is the darling of the casual fan. He's a master of the chaotic fight build-up and promotion - he's about as far from the manufactured Joshua as you can get.

Thing is, for all his so called talent he's not that great. Superb boxers don't a) get floored by the likes of Pajkic (even when they're still up and coming) or a small Cruiser in Cunningham and b) they don't uppercut themselves in the face. Wilder apparently can't box very well yet he floored him not once, but FOUR times. Great fighters don't hit the deck that many times against the same fighter very often. Entertaining fighters is a different matter, but he's not really that either. He's ungainly to watch and does not have that out and out power that most top heavies do.

A prime Vitali punches him out, Bowe takes him to the cleaners in a number of different ways and Lennox would uppercut him so hard he'd still be looking for his head 3 weeks later. Hell, I'd even wager that Nicolay Valuev gives him some issues - Valuev might not beat him but he'd make it difficult.

Just because he's a WBC champ and figured out how easy it was to beat Wilder (he got careless in the 4th round of the 3rd fight and almost paid the price), the vast majority of people conveniently forget that he's a bigot and a drug cheat. But that's all fine because he's Tyson Fury and can sing in the ring (badly). As Soul says - a top 20 placing would be justified. But top 6? Not a chance right now.

I know he's got next to no chance but I would LOVE for Whyte to put him down and hard. I would love to hear his excuses and want to see his walk away from the ring - looking like Broner did after Maidana

Dillian Whyte had his own drug issues....250 pounds and lean was bigger than Arnie back in the day...

I find Fury irritating but he is a World beater and now Taylor's credibility has gone he is the only UK fighter that is..

Why want a journeyman that isn't respected to beat him..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Dillian Whyte had his own drug issues....250 pounds and lean was bigger than Arnie back in the day...

I find Fury irritating but he is a World beater and now Taylor's credibility has gone he is the only UK fighter that is..

Why want a journeyman that isn't respected to beat him..

Because it's all about perceptions of what a fighter does. Whyte takes on all-comers, takes risks and has a cracking left hook. He's entertaining to watch.

I find Fury an absolute fraud when it comes to entertainment. I can't take anything away from what he's achieved, but watching him is quite painful. Aside from Wlad (where nobody actually bothered to throw very much) and Wilder there are precious few decent names on his record. Yet the press go nuts for him. I guess he's an acquired taste. It's a personal thing for me. For example I couldn't stand Oscar De La Hoya. I recognised that he has talent, but I just could not warm to him. Can't put my finger on it, can't logically explain. I just don't like him. It's the same with Fury. He just rubs me up the wrong way.

Whyte by contrast took on the fights that were perceived as dangerous so he could maintain his WBC ranking despite both Wilder and the WBC stitching him up so Wilder could fight those with little chance of beating him. Yes he got drilled by Povetkin but you will never see a more perfect uppercut (Whyte certainly didn't!). He got his revenge in the rematch and was rightfully reinstalled as the mandatory, this time properly.

I am a realist - I don't really believe that Fury has much chance of losing this fight, but this is the heavyweights, and Fury's chin is not the strongest. Whyte is not the journeyman you make him out to be, he's more than earned his shot. And hey, I love an underdog. I am #teamWhyte for this one, even if it's just a puncher's chance. There's no logic applied. I would just love to see Fury KO'd by a fighter he doesn't rate, that's all.

I get all that   It's just that the UK has a trailblazing fighter and there isn't anyone else...Also Boxing needs personalities..

I spent most of Mike Tyson's reign wanting him to lose and when he finally went downhill so did Boxing..

Some fighters are worth having patience with because of the knock on effect..

Whyte as Champion would be like having Willard or Berbick..

Who would be interested in him...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I get all that   It's just that the UK has a trailblazing fighter and there isn't anyone else...Also Boxing needs personalities..

I spent most of Mike Tyson's reign wanting him to lose and when he finally went downhill so did Boxing..

Some fighters are worth having patience with because of the knock on effect..

Whyte as Champion would be like having Willard or Berbick..

Who would be interested in him...

I don't think that's relevant, he may have a personality but it's a vile on. Fury is a racist, homophobic, misogynistic drugs cheat, that matters more to me than Whyte not being as good. Fury isn't doing anything for boxing, his popularity is massively overblown, if he were to ever fight AJ he wouldn't be the draw.

If you're a once in a generation talent then the downsides can be swept under the carpet to an extent like Mayweather but Fury isn't one.

Fury's a throwback to when The Sun tabloid used to big up the British Fighters in the 90s on ITV such as Benn, Eubank, Hamed, and to a lesser extent, Bruno. He's cut from the sort of cloth that sits well with the casual fan and so-called experts like the aforementioned Hart who seem to think he's unbelievably great.

Yes he's unbeaten, but outside of Wilder and Klitschko there's practically nobody on his record. This is a guy who most thought lost to John McDermott. Don't try and sell him to me as a Trailblazer, because I do not believe he is. To paraphrase a Truss-type phrase, "In the 80s, Bonecrusher KO's him when he's behind on points and Iron Mike turns it into a street fight he can't handle".

The criticisms of Eubank and Benn were partially justified, neither showed a great inclination to fight either Jones or Toney, both were smart enough to know they had no chance of winning but that of ambition is possibly a negative. Benn did of course take on MccLellan. Hamed is somewhat different in that he was for all intents and purposes the unified and undisputed Featherweight champion after beating Cesar Soto, only boxing politics stopped that being a reality, yes he got shown up against Barrera but his career before that was remarkable.

Where has Hart said anything about Fury being #6 all-time? I can't find that anywhere.

Anyway, if Fury is occasionally overrated by his biggest fanboys (which he is), then he's much more often underestimated - and to a greater degree - by his biggest critics, at least in my experience.

Everyone gets fight predictions wrong on a regular basis and we all misjudge fighters for better or worse, but I'm struggling to remember another British fighter where those who sold him short originally just refuse to give any quarter after being proved wrong the way they do with Fury. I've seen a string of fans predict that all of Chisora, Wladimir and Wilder were going to beat him (often with ease), but then after he beat them all maintain that he's still crap, got lucky and is bound to lose to the next decent name he faces. I actually wonder if people are really watching his fights when I read some of the comments about his ability, style etc.

If Hart (or anyone else) has indeed put him at #6 then that would be plainly ridiculous. Quality fighter though he is Fury has never had an air of invincibility about him, and the problem with rating active fighters in an all-time capacity is that one bad result can suddenly throw everything into the air. He could do with fattening his record up before he retires.

But while I'm not putting Fury in the same class as him, Ray Leonard is proof that you don't necessarily need all that many fights on your record, as long as you have the right ones. Fury ended one of Heavyweight boxing's longest reigns by beating Wladimir, and the post-Klitschko years have been largely characterised by the triumvirate of himself, Wilder and Joshua who have stood as the clear 'big three' of the division. He's already proved his superiority over Wilder, and if (and it is an if) he were to beat Joshua, for instance, you'd have to start asking how much more you could reasonably expect before people have to start accepting that he would be a Heavyweight champion of historical significance.

You can quibble how strong an era it has or hasn't been, but you can only beat what's there at the time, and amongst all Heavyweight champions there aren't many who can say they ended the reign of one of the more highly-regarded champions and then came out on top of a round robin between them and their two most significant contemporaries.

A lot needs to fall into place for that to pass, mind you.

All very valid points Chris. As always, your insights are greatly respected by me.

I still think Fury's a d!ck though He's got talent and finds a way to win. Doesn't mean I have to like him though...

88Chris05 wrote:Where has Hart said anything about Fury being #6 all-time? I can't find that anywhere. .

Talksport interview should be on youtube.. ...Said he was the best skilled Heavy since Holmes too.

To be really fair there aren't many Heavies that can say they ended the era of a great "40 year old Heavy"

Mr Bounce wrote:All very valid points Chris. As always, your insights are greatly respected by me.

I still think Fury's a d!ck though He's got talent and finds a way to win. Doesn't mean I have to like him though...

Have to be careful with fighters...Had a guy called HazHarrison on here that hated Floyd and gave him no credit for anything...Had Pedrosa above him in his list..

The Canelo win alone puts him above Pedrosa...Then there is the other 15 years..

I think Hart overrates Fury but plenty underestimate him because they don't like him.

Yeah of course, Bounce. Can certainly see why Fury wouldn't be any given person's cup of tea, and I think as fans it adds to the enjoyment for us when we have certain fighters we really pull for and others we really want to see lose. Obviously Fury is a bit of a caricature so the dividing line between those who indulge him and those who can't stand him is likely to be more sharply drawn. Certainly not one of those fighters in danger of being ignored, for better or worse.

Just seems to me (in general - not talking specific cases or saying it's invariable) that those who most dislike him also tend to be the ones who really don't rate him either, and damn him with as faint praise as possible when he wins.

I'm not saying that fighter ratings by fans being influenced to whatever extent by a personal like / dislike is exclusive to Fury by any means. I know I've definitely been guilty of it. Just seems a bit more pronounced than usual in Fury's case. Like it was with guys like Roy Jones, Hamed, Mike Tyson etc. before him.

I've said it numerous times before and it's a point ignored by so many; Tyson Fury is a drugs cheat and in todays sport its unacceptable. Allowances can be made for the past as 'everyone' was doing it but it is not the past it is the present

Roberto Duran used to get down from 180 to 135 by eating veggies..

Just because only a few are stupid enough to get caught doesn't mean drug taking isn't rife.

Let us not be naive.

I work with the information available, Fury failed a test, I cannot pass judgement on those who haven't.