If Tyson had stayed out of prison - The lost years !!

This is my opinion on the heavy years between 91 and 94 ......If Tyson hadn't gone to jail...

Crystal ball mode.........

Holyfield v Tyson Nov 1991.......
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A still light and Heavy-green Holy struggles to keep off an in shape Tyson looking to get his titles back and succumbs in the 7th round.

Tyson v Mercer Mar 1992........
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Mercer pulls out of his Holmes fight when offered a big payday against the new champion. Mercer attempts to push the Champion back and has some success but eventually gets overwhelmed by Tyson's faster hands. Tyson ko5....

Tyson v Foreman July 1992......
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The long awaited legend showdown ends quite early with Foreman refusing to go down and under fierce pressure. The old champion just can't get off with his punches and the fight is a rerun of Berbick v Tyson.......Tyson ko 3..........

Holy v Morrison July 1992....
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Holy beats Morrison in a final eliminator on the Tyson - Foreman undercard............Morrison after a good start wilts later on and loses a fairly close decision..

Tyson v Holy 2 Nov 1992.....
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Tyson struggles to beat the former champ in a rematch whether through lack of respect or allnight partying and scrapes a split decision...

Tyson v Bowe April 1993.....
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An in shape Bowe upsets the champion and stops him in the 11th round........A la Tokyo 1990. The champion is his heaviest weight yet and after a fast start fades against his 230 pound foe..

Bowe v Tyson Oct 1993.......
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A more one sided version of the first fight but much rougher. A frustrated Tyson loses two points on his way to a one sided beatdown and Bowe takes a lopsided decision although he wilts late this time..

Moorer v Holy Oct 1993......
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Moorer shocks a shopworn Holy by decision on the undercard...

Bowe v Moorer Feb 1994....
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Bowe stops Moorer easily in 5.....................

That's my take...................boo boom..

Just when we thought the board was Trussman-free and it was acclimatising to a nice slower pace, he's back with his drivel.....

I have missed you Truss, you and your crystal balls

Didn't Tyson lose before he went in to prison and as such his bubble had been well and truly burst?

Oh but Gus Tomato had died, he was distracted, his favourite budgie had died, he lost his lucky socks, he blah blah blah. We can if but maybe every single boxer and make excuses for them.

Could argue his prison term prolonged his career.

Another beating similar to Douglas directly after would have finished him. Prison gave him time to recuperate.

By Douglas, Tyson had taken his boxing hat off and replaced it with his pus$y hat. Like a lot of young men, all that fame and money led to pussymania. And that means no training.

Without doubt, he'd have taken another beating off a lesser fighter but for his incarceration, and that would have been the end of him.

PRIME MIKE TYSON!!!

TopHat24/7 wrote:PRIME MIKE TYSON!!!

Next up it'll be an article on "Hagler - Has he ever made love to man? Does he want to and would he choose me?"

We might as well have a debate on whether Hatton would've beaten Pacquiao if he hadn't have got hit by so many punches.

Always an excuse for Tyson, some should just accept he was the biggest hype job in history and got found out.

TopHat24/7 wrote:PRIME MIKE TYSON!!!

yeah but if Cus had not died in 1985 Tyson would have beaten Godzilla

Coxy go away....

I think Jim Jacobs was a bigger loss to Tyson...Wheelie.

I think Herman that Douglas was a wake up call.....No doubt Douglas was the most talented opponent in the heavy division. Great jab, footwork and combination puncher.... and a solid 230.

I believe the Douglas that fought in Tokyo would have beaten Evander..

Jacobs and Rooney combined I think were a great loss to Tyson, but some people make way too many excuses for Tyson in my opinion

Rooney was a victim of Jacobs going..........Jacobs was more hands on and a father figure to Tyson. Givens wouldn't have found it as easy to remove him as Cayton.

Cayton was the end of Rooney..

I agree Jacobs going was pivotal in Rooney going, but I still stand by my point that people make way too many excuses for Mike and always will I suspect

I don't think anybody rates him higher on here than they should..

Just think it's kind of sad there was so many questions left unanswered

Some do, some have him as an ATG, none that I am aware of on this board though thankfully.

Much of the unanswered questions are his own fault though Truss made back career and personal choices. Yes lack of education and the way he was brought up had a large role to play, but he surrounded himself with the wrong people.

I think he's a great heavy..

Have him around ten...higher than Holy and Lewis

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I think he's a great heavy..

Have him around ten...higher than Holy and Lewis

Higher than Lewis?!

Just because he's Canadian..

I wouldn't have him in my top 15 but I guess it all opinions

You'll have to tell me who you do have in it sometime..........and you better not have Dempsey too high !!

I will truss sometime, I know you will hate my list though

You may be pleasantly surprised !!

Where was Lennox Lewis in this alternative universe? Did he stay in England and fight a trilogy with Frank Bruno?

Tyson was going off prior to the point he went to prison. He'd become a largely flat-footed, straight ahead puncher in the Ruddock fights. Holyfield had a hard on for him back then - I always fancied he'd have outworked Tyson at that point.

Had Tyson continued to win as per the scenario above, I strongly doubt Riddick Bowe's risk averse manager, Rock Newman, would have let Bowe anywhere near Tyson.

Lewis would have had to wait...

Bowe v Holy etc happened before Lewis was involved...I imagine if you add Tyson to the scenario and only one title he'd have to wait.....

My thread is dependent on all titles staying united......Which is a big leap..

I can add Bowe ko7 Lewis to the thread If you like.....

Pity ducker-Bowe wasn't as confident in his own abilities as you, Truss......

Yep..

TopHat24/7 wrote:Pity ducker-Bowe wasn't as confident in his own abilities as you, Truss......

You're right there. Bowe facing Lewis when he should have would have changed the whole complexion of the division and could have given Lewis legendary status. If he'd beaten Bowe, he may have had a rematch and then faced Holyfield. If Tyson still went down he'd be coming out right in time to face Lewis for the undisputed championship. Lewis would have had to win them but he was capable of doing so. Obviously a McCall type loss could have been around any corner pre Steward, if he'd ever have even gone with Steward, but that version was capable of sparking the three of them too.

He'd probably be right behind Ali if that version had come to fruition. Bowe not facing him (and Oliver) took him out of the mix for the really big fights for years.

Everybody picked Bowe to beat Lewis in 1994.....He was a big favorite......

Futch thought he was amateur night !!

When you see Lewis v Bruno/Mccall you can see why !!.

Fighting the more respected Holyfield what a coward.

I think Truss its more because of the way Bowe did it dumping the belt in the trash etc that he is regarded as a coward but i agree with you in 94 he would have beat lewis

Only regarded as a coward by idiots..

Watch the Holyfield trilogy and tell me If the guy lacked heart.........

You give me five times more money for Holy and I'm gonna take it....Besides Lewis in 94 was a walking accident.

Steward and Futch both saw the telegraphed right that started out in Nebraska...Leaving him wide open !!

I'd pick a Steward Lewis to beat every heavy in history bar Ali, Foreman and Tyson....

But I'd pick at least ten to smash the correa one including Bowe..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Only regarded as a coward by idiots..

Watch the Holyfield trilogy and tell me If the guy lacked heart.........

You give me five times more money for Holy and I'm gonna take it....Besides Lewis in 94 was a walking accident.

Steward and Futch both saw the telegraphed right that started out in Nebraska...Leaving him wide open !!

I'd pick a Steward Lewis to beat every heavy in history bar Ali, Foreman and Tyson....

But I'd pick at least ten to smash the correa one including Bowe..

Bowe was offered more money to face Lewis. We went through that on another thread. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but in '93, Lewis was viewed as a far more formidable opponent than Holyfield (who was seen as being too small and too shopworn to turn the tables on Bowe).

You were wrong on that thread too !!.

You said Lewis v Tucker was a bigger fight than Bowe v Holy 2.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You were wrong on that thread too !!.

You said Lewis v Tucker was a bigger fight than Bowe v Holy 2.

If I recall correctly, I said it drew a bigger gate (which it did).

Julian Jackson v Gerald Mclellan was the main event !!!!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Julian Jackson v Gerald Mclellan was the main event !!!!

Not officially but don't let that spoil a good story.

So they all turned up to watch Lewis v Tucker....A no name Brit/Canadian against a guy who couldn't sell out his own street..

Instead of a great match up of ko artists...

Off you go !!

Lewis v Tucker a bigger fight than bowe v Holy 2 ...Heard it all !!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:So they all turned up to watch Lewis v Tucker....A no name Brit/Canadian against a guy who couldn't sell out his own street..

Instead of a great match up of ko artists...

Off you go !!

Lewis v Tucker a bigger fight than bowe v Holy 2 ...Heard it all !!

Drew a bigger gate. Bowe and Holyfield split slightly bigger purses. Bowe vs Holyfield 2 was a more significant fight.

Regardless - the point was that Lewis was perceived as a bigger threat and was a more lucrative fight for Bowe than Holyfield.

Oh come on.............

Drew a bigger gate because Julian Jackson was fighting Gerald Mclellan in a much heralded battle of big punchers....

....Just admit you forgot that fight was on the same bill.

Everyone is wrong sometimes.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Oh come on.............

Drew a bigger gate because Julian Jackson was fighting Gerald Mclellan in a much heralded battle of big punchers....

....Just admit you forgot that fight was on the same bill.

Everyone is wrong sometimes.

Check the other thread - I was the one that pointed that out. But crack on - don't let that ruin the story.

At least we've established it drew a bigger gate.

I’d fancy Evander to win at least once if he had two bites (touchy subject with Iron Mike!) at Tyson between ’91 and ’94, Truss. Appreciate that Holyfield was beatable and vulnerable right throughout his Heavyweight career, but I think the two Ruddock fights underlined how beatable Tyson was at that stage, too. While the second fight was entertaining and showed how tough Tyson still was, that’s as much an indication of how much his overall game was declining as much as anything else. I think the Tyson of three years before has no such problems with Ruddock.

Thinking how Holyfield basically took Tyson apart in 1996 while they were both past their peak, I just can’t equate that to Tyson beating Holyfield two times out of two at any point post-Douglas. Fights in 1991 / 1992 give Tyson a much better chance and I could see him beating Holyfield in one of your hypothetical encounters between the pair, but I reckon Holyfield at that point would have come out on even terms, particularly given his knack of improving his performance / changing the result in rematches.

It's a viable opinion I mean who knows.....

But Ruddock was a non title fight and he won easily. Fair to assume when the titles were on the line Tyson would be more motivated !!....Whereas Holy struggled with Dokes...

I don't think Holy in 91 was a fully fledged heavy. I think the milkshakes came a bit later.

My reckoning is he gets enough of a slap in the first Tyson fight that it affects him in the second !!.

Have no doubts that Tyson lost a lot rusting away in 94....

But fairplay......Just my take.

At least you haven't tried to say Lewis v Tucker was bigger than Holy v Bowe 2..

88Chris05 wrote:I’d fancy Evander to win at least once if he had two bites (touchy subject with Iron Mike!) at Tyson between ’91 and ’94, Truss. Appreciate that Holyfield was beatable and vulnerable right throughout his Heavyweight career, but I think the two Ruddock fights underlined how beatable Tyson was at that stage, too. While the second fight was entertaining and showed how tough Tyson still was, that’s as much an indication of how much his overall game was declining as much as anything else. I think the Tyson of three years before has no such problems with Ruddock.

Thinking how Holyfield basically took Tyson apart in 1996 while they were both past their peak, I just can’t equate that to Tyson beating Holyfield two times out of two at any point post-Douglas. Fights in 1991 / 1992 give Tyson a much better chance and I could see him beating Holyfield in one of your hypothetical encounters between the pair, but I reckon Holyfield at that point would have come out on even terms, particularly given his knack of improving his performance / changing the result in rematches.

Holyfield had long looked like the man to end Tyson's reign - even before Douglas. The Tyson of the Ruddock fights was still a lot better than the post-prison version (who was little more than a bully less able to take punches than he once was) and so it would have been a better fight but there was a sense back in '91 that Holyfield would be a real challenge for a fully fit and focussed Tyson (until he fought Bert Cooper that is).

Bowe and Lewis is always pegged as the one that got away but Tyson vs Holyfield in '91 would have been a better fight.

That's why Tyson was 8/5 favorite after Douglas ....

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:That's why Tyson was 8/5 favorite after Douglas ....

His shortest ever odds prior to prison.

holy tyson may have more to it than their respective talents/capability at any given time.

Apparently/allegedly/according to some guy in the pub, tyson was a bit intimidated by holy, and not the usual vice-versa... going back to their amateur days, specifically sparring in the 1984 olympic trials and a pool room square-off.

Of course Tyson was also scared of big george because no 'swarmer' could beat foreman.  Seems like he was scared of most people!

I doubt that Tyson would be intimidated as a pro but genuinely think that holyfield would always enter a tyson fight believing he could win.

Stay out of the pub is my advice....

Agree that Holy always thought he could win. No Heavy had a greater heart. Just don't think he was a fully fledged heavy back then.....

Struggled with the garbage Alex Stewart and struggled with Dokes. Couldn't even stop a half dead Thomas !!

The shakes came later !!

It's true that the power and physicality he brought to the eventual match with Tyson just weren't there in '91. He wouldn't have been able to wrap Tyson up and bully him as he did.

Holyfield would have boxed: high ouput and lots of movement. It would have been a much better fight.

perhaps truss... but styles make fights (some guy down the pub told me that)

Styles make fights hardly applies to a guy 10 years removed from his first title fight that spent close to four years rusting up in prison...

Or are you going to tell me Toney always beats Holy ??

nope, I'm saying holy was a good match up stylistically for tyson at anytime... he handled a younger but heavier tyson in sparring pretty well according to accounts, (including his own!) as amateurs when tyson was stiffing everyone else. Sparring is sparring, I'm not saying holy as a cruiser derails tyson of the late 80's, but by the early 90's, his was the star in the ascendancy and tyson was post """""prime""""" or whatever we want to call it. Tough fight to call.

To be fair, Tyson is pretty charitable when it comes to sparring stories. It sounded as though he mullered a young Lewis yet that story had changed over the years (it was more or less the most interesting story in Lewis' biography) so that the sparring was this evenly pitched fight (which I don't believe was the case).

I watched that Tyson series they did and the episode where he went to visit Evander....

I thought Evander looked like an bumhole certainly more arrogant than Mike..