Prem Round 25

Friday
Bristol v Exeter
Wasps v Sales

Sat
Bath v Irish
Quins v Gloucester
Falcons v Tigers
Saracens v Saints

Newcastle Falcons team v Leicester Tigers (Saturday, 3pm, Kingston Park Stadium)

15 Alex Tait, 14 Adam Radwan, 13 Matias Orlando, 12 Luther Burrell, 11 Mateo Carreras, 10 Joel Hodgson, 9 Michael Young; 1 Adam Brocklebank, 2 George McGuigan, 3 Trevor Davison, 4 Greg Peterson, 5 Philip van der Walt, 6 Gary Graham, 7 Josh Basham, 8 Callum Chick (captain).

Replacements: 16 Jamie Blamire, 17 Logovi'i Mulipola, 18 Mark Tampin, 19 Freddie Lockwood, 20 Carl Fearns, 21 Cameron Nordli-Kelemeti, 22 Will Haydon-Wood, 23 Iwan Stephens.

Leicester Tigers: 15 Freddie Steward, 14 Chris Ashton, 13 Matías Moroni, 12 Guy Porter, 11 Nemani Nadolo, 10 George Ford, 9 Richard Wigglesworth; 1 Ellis Genge (captain), 2 Nic Dolly, 3 Dan Cole, 4 Ollie Chessum, 5 Harry Wells, 6 George Martin, 7 Hanro Liebenberg, 8 Jasper Wiese.

Replacements: 16 Charlie Clare, 17 Nephi Leatigaga, 18 Joe Heyes, 19 Cameron Henderson, 20 Tommy Reffell, 21 Jack van Poortvliet, 22 Freddie Burns, 23 Matt Scott.

Referee: Anthony Woodthorpe.

Harlequins Starting XV
1. Simon Kerrod
2. Jack Walker
3. Will Collier
4. Matt Symons
5. Hugh Tizard
6. Stephan Lewies (c)
7. Tom Lawday
8. Alex Dombrandt

9. Danny Care
10. Marcus Smith
11. Cadan Murley
12. Andre Esterhuizen
13. Joe Marchant
14. Louis Lynagh
15. Huw Jones

Impact Players

16. Jack Musk
17. Joe Marler
18. Wilco Louw
19. Matas Jurevicius
20. Will Evans
21. Lewis Gjaltema
22. Tommy Allan
23. Nick David

Glaws:
15. Santiago Carreras
14. Louis Rees-Zammit *
13. Chris Harris
12. Giorgi Kveseladze
11. Ollie Thorley *
10. Adam Hastings
9. Charlie Chapman *

1. Val Rapava-Ruskin
2. Santiago Socino
3. Kirill Gotovtsev
4. Freddie Clarke *
5. Matias Alemanno
6. Ruan Ackermann
7. Lewis Ludlow * (c)
8. Ben Morgan

Replacements
16. Jack Singleton
17. Harry Elrington
18. Fraser Balmain
19. Andrew Davidson
20. Jordy Reid
21. Ben Meehan
22. Billy Twelvetrees
23. Tom Seabrook *

Looks like both sides are pretty strong and there are some tasty match ups. The Quins forwards bench looks to have an edge to me, and might be decisive if it's close towards the end. But let's face it, we're all expecting a tryfest and telephone number scorelines...

Couple of decent match ups in the wasps sale game tonight as well. Rodd, Alo, West, Curry, Willis and Barbeary all on show.

What's happened to Exeter this season? They're a shadow of their former selves

Has the game moved on so much this season that their gameplan is no longer effective, or are they just not as good at their gameplan as they were last season?

RDW wrote:What's happened to Exeter this season? They're a shadow of their former selves

Has the game moved on so much this season that their gameplan is no longer effective, or are they just not as good at their gameplan as they were last season?

Haven't followed them quite so closely, but they have had some very significant absences this season, important players through injury as well as International call ups:  Dave Ewers and LCD, Sam Simmonds, Jonny Hill, Jack Nowell, Henry Slade, Jacques Vermeulen, Jonny Gray, Sam Hidalgo-Clyne, Stuart Hogg, and I am sure I am missing some.

Don't think the rule change's have helped their driving game either. But their lineout and scrum which used to be strong have suffered this season, losing LCD can't help.

Just seen the ref get hit by the ball and Gloucester go almost from 1 tryline to the other.  Should have been been scrum surely.

Marchants quite a player.

Would be ahead of Slade for the England 13 shirt if it was upto me.

doctor_grey wrote:

RDW wrote:What's happened to Exeter this season? They're a shadow of their former selves

Has the game moved on so much this season that their gameplan is no longer effective, or are they just not as good at their gameplan as they were last season?

Haven't followed them quite so closely, but they have had some very significant absences this season, important players through injury as well as International call ups:  Dave Ewers and LCD, Sam Simmonds, Jonny Hill, Jack Nowell, Henry Slade, Jacques Vermeulen, Jonny Gray, Sam Hidalgo-Clyne, Stuart Hogg, and I am sure I am missing some.

The loss of Francis at tighthead has hurt them as Williams has had issues with injuries and dips in form. Has meant that their scrum has been targetable and under pressure in a lot of games.

Some of their key players have started to show their age. Players like Whitten and Armand aren't the cornerstones of the team like they used to be. Recruitment has been patchy and seems to lack direction from the outside. At one point it looked like they were trying to find young players that fit the player type of some the older players that might need moving on in the not to distant future but some of those youngsters have already been moved on and it feels like who's affordable and might do a job have made up large portions of the squad. Had key players not been absent for so long they might have got away with it but those injuries put it under the microscope.

Was just sent a short vid of the Nic Dolly injury from this afternoon. This is bad. No scan results yet but he is likely going to have a really tough time. Hoping for the best for him.

I have just seen the "attempted tackle" by Farrell on Mitchell; standing up straight, straight into Mitchells face, no downward movement by Mitchell ,so no mitigation, no attempt to get below shoulder height by Farrell, I have not seen the game, only a clip but how was that not a red card. The fact that he didn't actually hold onto Mitchell due to a lack of any attempt to grasp him is not relevant.

Going back to the old days of refs at Sarries home matches. It was not included in teh highlights, but apparently Itoje had a knock on that looked very much like deliberate that was not looked at either. Saints get two men binned for much less serious offences.

Not sure Farrell made head contact though.

I think that Mr. Mitchell may disagree. His head clearly moves back in the hit and Farrell was holding his face directly after as a result. Certainly not intentional, but that doe snot matter, it was dangerous.

https://www.ruck.co.uk/video-owen-farrell-escaped-red-for-another-horror-hit-today/

From that still I'm wrong then. Didn't look that way on TV.

doctor_grey wrote:Was just sent a short vid of the Nic Dolly injury from this afternoon.  This is bad.  No scan results yet but he is likely going to have a really tough time.  Hoping for the best for him.      

Borthwick doesn't like talking about players injury status so we might not get too much detail. By all accounts though it's a shocker and he could be out for as long as Willis. Really bad luck for him as he was in with a shot of touring back home in Australia with England this summer.

I see Dan Biggar has said he's relieved they're playing us in the last game going for top 4. How arrogant can you get

Id have it printed out all over the changing rooms before the game...and play our most ferocious game of the season

doctor_grey wrote:Was just sent a short vid of the Nic Dolly injury from this afternoon.  This is bad.  No scan results yet but he is likely going to have a really tough time.  Hoping for the best for him.      

I haven't seen it but by accounts online it's a crocodile roll from the opposition that causes it, which I thought had been banned because of these sorts of injuries?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Marchants quite a player.

Would be ahead of Slade for the England 13 shirt if it was upto me.

Yea he struggled a bit at the start of the season and in the AI's with being moved to wing, but he's just a phenomenal 13 he should be played there.

yappysnap wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Was just sent a short vid of the Nic Dolly injury from this afternoon.  This is bad.  No scan results yet but he is likely going to have a really tough time.  Hoping for the best for him.      

I haven't seen it but by accounts online it's a crocodile roll from the opposition that causes it, which I thought had been banned because of these sorts of injuries?

The footage is pretty grim. Side on is not great but the angle from behind is bad, don't watch if you're squeamish. I can't see him being back this year. Feel for the lad he's been fantastic since he came in from the Championship.

It was a crocodile roll and the player was sin binned. Ref made the right call.

Whilst the crocodile roll does need to be removed from the game I also think that part of the problem is how players are being coached to attack the breakdown, legs locked out straight. Doesn't allow for any side impact, bent knees allows for a better distribution of impact. Might be less turnovers but less chance of nasty injury.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Was just sent a short vid of the Nic Dolly injury from this afternoon.  This is bad.  No scan results yet but he is likely going to have a really tough time.  Hoping for the best for him.      

I haven't seen it but by accounts online it's a crocodile roll from the opposition that causes it, which I thought had been banned because of these sorts of injuries?

The footage is pretty grim. Side on is not great but the angle from behind is bad, don't watch if you're squeamish. I can't see him being back this year. Feel for the lad he's been fantastic since he came in from the Championship.

It was a crocodile roll and the player was sin binned. Ref made the right call.

Whilst the crocodile roll does need to be removed from the game I also think that part of the problem is how players are being coached to attack the breakdown, legs locked out straight. Doesn't allow for any side impact, bent knees allows for a better distribution of impact. Might be less turnovers but less chance of nasty injury.

Yeah, it's a tough watch.  The player who committed the gator roll rolled on Dolly's left leg, his foot still planted in the ground, causing all the force to be directed into the knee.  The result was a sharp and rapid inward and downward knee motion exacerbated by the knee hitting the ground forcing the lower leg out sideways.  Also potential trauma to the ankle from the views I was sent.  If the results are as severe as the videos appear, Dolly will be lucky to be back by the end of next season.  Let's wait for the scans and proper analysis, but this is likely a real bad one.

Not seen Dolly's injury but that short description has made me wince doc. We had BT refusing to show replays of Stooke this weekend as well as it was so horrible.

No need to watch it, mate.  When I went back and watched the replay from BT, they showed the replay once and the commentator sounded a bit shaken afterwards.  Unfortunately, they showed it a couple more times when it was put on the big screen at the stadium so the ref could see as foul play was involved.  Seemed to me the commentator was apologetic and not what BT would have done if foul play was not involved.

The feed for the game originally only showed the side on which was watchable and refused to show the angle from behind which is the one that's a tough watch. As Doc says as foul play was under review the ref had to see it so it went on the big screen. Must have been tough for his mates in the Tigers side to see the replay whilst he's there in agony getting loaded onto a stretcher.

What has changed since this was done to Jack Willis last year that means it is now foul play?

MichaelT wrote:What has changed since this was done to Jack Willis last year that means it is now foul play?

Not sure, the ref's mic was not audible on the PRTV stream. I presume it was for going off his feet beyond the ball. Brocklebank didn't complete the roll and fell forward onto Dolly's leg. I think the ref went a little left field and defined it as reckless entry to a ruck and so got the yellow card out.

MichaelT wrote:What has changed since this was done to Jack Willis last year that means it is now foul play?

Sanctioning the lower-limb clearout: Players who target/drop their weight onto the lower limbs of a jackler at the ruck - the player trying to steal the ball - will be penalised. The sanction will be a penalty kick.

A good change but in turn refs need to be stricter on jackalers who set their legs too wide, hence can't actually support their own bodyweight. It seems to be happening more and more. Almost an evolution of jackalers attacking beyond the ball, letting clearing players drive then back onto the ball. That was rightly clamped down on.

Now when carriers are isolated we often see potential jackals wait a split second (hands up as a pretence of showing they aren't part of the tackle), then set their base so wide they can't actually stay on their feet but aim to get onto the ball at the same time as the clearing player arrives. The jackal basically collapses onto the ball, not supporting their bodyweight but as some seem to be aiming to do so at the same time the clearing player arriving it's often not called.

Refs wanting to see a "clear lift" of the ball rather than just hands on from the jackal was a good evolution of the rules. I'd personally like to see that go further so that refs are looking for an immediate lift of the ball. Often jackals will collapse onto the ball, not supporting their weight but getting hands on, then the lift of the ball will come a second later after they've regained some balance. If a jackal is in a position to support their weight, with hands on then they should be able getting an immediate lift of the ball by trying to strip it. If they aren't getting an immediate lift then odds are it's because the can't as they aren't actually supporting their own bodyweight IMO!

I think the referee or assistant referee saw the gator roll and immediately thought foul play. Tell me if I have it wrong, but the croc or gator roll is now considered reckless?

doctor_grey wrote:I think the referee or assistant referee saw the gator roll and immediately thought foul play.  Tell me if I have it wrong, but the croc or gator roll is now considered reckless?  

Yea that's what I thought.

Thanks for all the info guys, I can think of way too many players getting injured by this clean out. A lot more than spear tackles or neck rolls which have both been stamped out.

Horrific injury but this still made me laugh


'England prostitute Nic Dolly suffers knee injury'


https://hesgoal.site/rugby-news/england-prostitute-nic-dolly-suffers-knee-injury-during-leicesters-newcastle-victory/

geoff999rugby wrote:Horrific injury but this still made me laugh


'England prostitute Nic Dolly suffers knee injury'


https://hesgoal.site/rugby-news/england-prostitute-nic-dolly-suffers-knee-injury-during-leicesters-newcastle-victory/

I guess this is what happens when some computer auto-correct gets involved and the author does not go back and check (or wants to have a laugh).  The same is if I type Frak or Poopie

Players of the year (BBC):

'Harlequins' Andre Esterhuizen has been voted the Rugby Players' Association's players' player of the year.

The South Africa international has scored eight tries for Harlequins this season, as they aim to retain their Premiership title in June's play-offs.

The 28-year-old won the most votes in a poll conducted by fellow players.

Centre Esterhuizen joined Quins in 2020 and has started all 23 of the team's league matches this season, playing an average of 77 minutes.

"It's an incredible honour to win this award and for it to be voted by all the players and teams that I've played with and against makes it even more special," he said.

"It is something that I am extremely proud of. Thank you to all of my family and team-mates for their support."

Leicester and England full-back Freddie Steward was named young player of the year, ahead of Quins fly-half Marcus Smith, London Irish back Henry Arundell and Sale prop Bevan Rodd.

"It is a big honour to win an award voted on by your peers, and I feel humbled to win, given the talent in the game." Steward said

Steward was also named England men's player of the year. The 21-year-old has won 10 England caps since making his international debut last summer.

Marlie Packer won the England women's player of the year award, while Harlequins scrum-half Danny Care claimed the RPA's special merit award.

Elsewhere, the RPA's Blyth Spirit award - which recognises courage in the face of adversity - went to Kevin Sinfield and Andrew Fenby, former England women's star Katy Daley-McLean was inducted into the RPA's hall of fame and Leicester wing Chris Ashton breaking the Premiership's all-time try-scoring record was voted moment of the season.'


Hard to really argue against those, though the BBC example of Arundell seems more about his dazzling rise in the last bit of the season rather than a complete look. WOuld suggest someone like Tizzard myself based purely on club form.

Perhaps someone like Ackermann or Genge over Esterhuizen over the season?

Esterhuizen's stats are phenomenal for an Inside Centre, though - 1,703m made (4th behind Green [1], O'Flaherty and OHC), Defenders beaten 60 (7th behind Willis, Green, DVDM, Radwan, Tompkins and OHC), 8 tries and 14 turnovers. It's a really exceptional all round performance.

Anyway, these awards are the RPA awards - voted for by the players themselves. His opponents have picked him as the player who has impressed them most this season.

[1] A bit of a shout out for Green, too, who still tops the metres made list and is second on defenders beaten despite having been injured for the last two months.