2022-23 PL season.

First topic message reminder :

Liverpool won the Community Shield 3-1 over Manchester City at the King Power Stadium.
TAA opened the scoring.
Julian Alvarez scored on his City debut.
Salah scored a penalty after Dias handball.
Darwin Nunez scored late on, also ok debut.

Seems like the media really have to hype up Liverpool for some reason…

Debut to forget for Erling Haaland, largely anonymous. And missed a sitter from 6 yards out late on. Hit the crossbar in fact.

Wild over the top celebrations over a pre season match…genuinely baffling scenes.

Not hard to get the impression that Potter went from a guy who thrived in a stable and structured environment, to someone who couldn't handle what we could say generously was carnage, players being signed every other day, people being hired to new positions above him etc.

Chelsea under Roman had some clarity in chaos that seemed to work for them, right now they're seemingly assembling a hierarchy and doing the day to day on the fly

Galted wrote:

No name Bertie wrote:Twelfth managerial sacking in the premier league this season with Chelsea sacking two managers.

Pretty impressive when you consider that Watford are only in the Championship.

Graham Potter was well known for raising the ability of ordinary players and players with something to prove.  He also had a good style of play.  At Brighton they were a possession based side and attacking but they tended not to score as many as the prediction stats said they should score based on shots on target etc.

At Chelsea the manager's job is different - the players have nothing much to prove - they are either experienced players with trophies or young players that have been praised highly and know their potential worth after being signed on at very high transfer fees.  For these players they want a strong manager who has lots of experience that they can trust and respect with strong leadership and who knows what he is doing and provides clear and abrupt instructions and guidance.

Sounds like the manager the players stopped playing for before Potter

GSC wrote:Sounds like the manager the players stopped playing for before Potter

So you and Bertie between you are saying that Chelsea are currently unmanageable...

Appointing someone like Potter should have been a 3 year commitment from the Chelsea board, and they should have got out of his way to let him build the team he wanted - the problem is that too many teams (Chairmen) want immediate success when that just isn't deliverable unless you are Man City, starting from a position of strength and just building onto those foundations.
It's taken Arteta a couple of season to really get Arsenal doing what he wants, and look how that's working - pretty sure I remember some debate about him getting sacked last season. Man U seem to have realised as well they need to give Ten Haag time and support in dismantling and rebuilding the squad, and he's already got some players (Rashford for one) in much better form than has been seen under the last 2 or 3 managers.

Yeah I get the squad was well past due in terms of a rebuild but piling more uncertainty on top of that with the manager position doesn't seem like it's gonna help that.

If Potter wasn't the guy then best to move on, but the next manager has to be given some stability to work through all the squad changes

Arteta finished 8th and 5th in his full seasons in charge - and there were questions over him. ETH has United in a top 4 race in his first season. Chelsea are 11th and going backwards. I don’t think it’s unfair to expect some level of improvement in either results or even on field performance at this point but both are getting worse.

dummy_half wrote:

GSC wrote:Sounds like the manager the players stopped playing for before Potter

So you and Bertie between you are saying that Chelsea are currently unmanageable...

I didn't say that. Tuchel was sacked because of some sort of disagreement between Tuchel and Boehly. I said that Graham Potter had no experience of managing a collection of star players and young players that were maybe arrogant and knew their value. Before Potter was appointed I didn't think he would be able to cope. He started off well but then the results dried up and he became known as changing formations and players so that no partnerships between players truly developed. Chelsea were described as playing like an aggregate of individuals rather than a team.

Lampard going back to Chelsea as interim

Super Frank in the Uncle Guus Hiddunk role. They are trying to wait for Nagelsmann when he wants Madrid in the summer.

The Chelsea - Boehly consortium, appear to have a lot of money to throw around.   That means they are not necessarily confined to out of work managers.   They have now sacked Tomas Tuchel and Graham Potter.  For their own reputation as non laughing stock owners they need to get the next "permanent" appointment right.

It has been said that they have enough money to eventually get it right.  However, if for any reason, the money dries up, then this could be the quickest path to a Leeds Like obscurity where Leeds after getting to the Semi-Final of the Champions League found themselves in League One.

ps: Selling off home grown player will help balance the books.

I always thought that Unai Emery was a good manager, but not this good.

No name Bertie wrote:I always thought that Unai Emery was a good manager, but not this good.

Doing really well at villa and long may it continue.
If everyone stays fit, then a big chance we can get into Europe
Big games ahead, starting with a big test next Saturday home to Newcastle.

westisbest wrote:

No name Bertie wrote:I always thought that Unai Emery was a good manager, but not this good.

Doing really well at villa and long may it continue.
If everyone stays fit, then a big chance we can get into Europe
Big games ahead, starting with a big test next Saturday home to Newcastle.

Run-in will be interesting, play all the other sides in the top 10 apart from Arsenal and City, plus Wolves. Effectively all the teams competing for Europe plus one local derby.

Lampard was totally inept the first time around. What’s the reasoning by having him back now? Chelsea seem in turmoil and a clown manager does nothing to fix that.

Jeff Navarro wrote:Lampard was totally inept the first time around. What’s the reasoning by having him back now?

I thought he did quite well until they started throwing money around. So no idea.

Chelsea should have taken a punt on this young English manager doing a good job at Palace.

Great win for villa today. Was great to be back at Villa Park. Best I’ve seen us play in a long time, to pretty much brush aside Newcastle was great to see.

Every player was quality today.
Special mention to Moreno.

Emery doing wonders.
Hopefully we can push on and get a place in Europe.

UTV.

West Ham 2-2 Arsenal. The Gunners blew a 2 goal lead at the Olympic stadium. Saka missed a penalty at 2-1 as well. The gunners are wilting

Nottingham Forest 0-2 Manchester United. Forest heading towards relegation as Eriksen ran the show and Antony showed up as well

Side note Sancho is rubbish.

Jeff Navarro wrote:West Ham 2-2 Arsenal. The Gunners blew a 2 goal lead at the Olympic stadium. Saka missed a penalty at 2-1 as well. The gunners are wilting

Nottingham Forest 0-2 Manchester United. Forest heading towards relegation as Eriksen ran the show and Antony showed up as well

Side note Sancho is rubbish.

Looked god at Dorttmund, but for me didn't look the part for England - less effective than several players we had available in similar positions. Man U got stung by the hype driving up the transfer fee. I have some concern over the signing of Bellingham, although he IS looking good at international level, so the transition to the EPL should be less of a jump.

Sancho looks a good YouTube footballer. The clips from Dortmund make him look better than he actually is.
Fundamentally the German league is a 2 team league at best.
Sancho in the PL gets exposed for his lack of speed, physicality and lack of desire. Seems happy to take the pay cheque.

Newcastle 6-1 Tottenham. Newcastle annihilated a hapless Spurs side. It was 5-0 after 21 minutes. Moving Newcastle closer to sealing a CL spot and leaving Tottenham in tatters.

Bournemouth 0-4 West Ham. The Hammers improving their survival hopes with a crushing win.

Surely Harry Kane has to leave now? Man United might be a good move as they need a striker and should be in the Champions League next season.

Arsenal's title challenge appears to have collapsed, with no wins in their last three and their defence leaking goals.

Duty281 wrote:Surely Harry Kane has to leave now? Man United might be a good move as they need a striker and should be in the Champions League next season.

Arsenal's title challenge appears to have collapsed, with no wins in their last three and their defence leaking goals.

Collapsed is a bit strong, but they've certainly lost momentum and now will have to beat Man City on Wednesday to retain the lead (at least, once games in hand are played) - previously, it looked like a draw in that game would be a good result for Arsenal.

A bit of movement in the bottom few places, and it now looks like 3 from the bottom 5.
Southampton look in real trouble - have games against Bournemouth and Forest that they will need to win, otherwise it's Newcastle, Brighton, Fulham and Liverpool, who are all chasing European spots. Struggle to see them getting past 30 points.

Forest's run in is potentially easier, and they are only 2 points from safety (well, 1 point plus very inferior goal difference). The Southampton game is huge, but they also have an out of form Chelsea and Palace in the last game of the season where Palace will likely be on the beach already. Can see them reaching 33 or 34 points

Everton: Won't expect much from Newcastle, Brighton or City, but Leicester, Wolves and Bournemouth are winnable. I can see maybe 1 win and 2 draws, so 33 points. The biggest one would be beating Leicester - equal points but a 9 goal goal difference.

Leicester's season hinges on the next two games - Everton and Leeds. They've also got West Ham last game of the season, who may be protecting themselves for the European final, but between that have Fulham, Liverpool and Newcastle.

Leeds: Similar to Leicester, in that the next two games will define whether they are safe or in a real battle - Leicester at home and Bournemouth away. City and Newcastle to follow, then West Ham and Spurs as the last two games.

The teams above should be safe - probably need a point or two to be certain, but I reckon 35 should be enough to stay up.

Just ran it through a predictor and had Southampton, Forest and Leicester going down, but it's such fine margins that any of the bottom six can go down. Bournemouth have confounded my expectation of them so far; worst defence in the league but 15th.

I see Tottenham have sacked their interim manager after yesterday's debacle. Such a badly-run club.

Duty281 wrote:Just ran it through a predictor and had Southampton, Forest and Leicester going down, but it's such fine margins that any of the bottom six can go down. Bournemouth have confounded my expectation of them so far; worst defence in the league but 15th.

I see Tottenham have sacked their interim manager after yesterday's debacle. Such a badly-run club.

33 points at the moment, which means they probably need 2 or 3 more to be absolutely certain of safety, and a fascinating run in that will play a big part in deciding who does go down - got all of Southampton, Leeds and Everton to come, along with Chelsea, Palace and Man U.

Tottenham are a complete disaster at the moment - in competition with Chelsea as to the worst run club in the EPL

Arsenal secure second place in the Premier League.  Arteta has shown year on year improvement (final points) since he took over.  Will be difficult to continue that relative progress into next year.   Man City overwhelming favorites to secure the title for this year.  For Man City the issue is going to be can they get past Real Madrid to reach the final of the Champions League and then if they do that can they then win it.

Both Newcastle and Man Utd lose but one might expect that they will both finish top four with Liverpool maybe leaving it too late with their current run of good form, but Liverpool should finish at least fifth.

Relegation battle has more or less tightened with Southampton almost certain to be relegated with two from Leeds, Everton, Forest and Leicester battling for survival.

Man United looked dreadful yesterday. Pedestrian play, no attacking movement and no creativity. They looked a fatigued team and have scored just one goal in the last seven halves of football. Not good with Liverpool entering a rich vein of form and getting to within a point.

Relegation. Who knows?

Everton have got two tough fixtures, but then they get to play Wolves and Bournemouth who have nothing to play for. Could see them getting 4 or 6 points, ending up with 33/35.

Forest have a must-win game v Southampton today, two tougher ones against Chelsea and Arsenal, then Palace on the final day.  Could see them getting 4 or 6 points, also, ending up with 34/36.

Leeds' fixture list is horrible, with Newcastle and Tottenham still to play, and a game away to West Ham in between (although West Ham are distracted by Europe). Big Sam will do well just to get 2 points from that lot, which would only be 32 points.

Leicester need something at Fulham today, because afterwards it's Liverpool and a trip up to Newcastle, before rounding it off at home to West Ham. Maybe 3 or 4 points for Leicester, which would be around 33/34.

So I reckon Leeds are done for, unless Big Sam can work some magic and boost his bank balance in the process. The other spot is very tight. Things will begin to look terminal for Forest if they lost to Southampton today. Leicester, they've got a relatively good GD, but things will take a worrying look if they lose to Fulham. Everton, two free hits then the pressure arrives.

As for Southampton, if they survive from here it'll be the greatest escape of them all. But perhaps if they do an unlikely double over Forest and Fulham they'll start to believe.

Forest won their must-win game, Everton thrashed Brighton in one of their free hits, and Leicester got pummelled by Fulham, so it's Leicester who are deep in trouble now.

Burnley and Sheffield United coming up next season. One of Luton, Middlesbrough, Coventry or Sunderland to come up via the play-offs.

Don't think we're getting anything from Arsenal so gonna have to win one of these away games to stay up I think.

Southampton gone and it's looking pretty dicey for Leicester. But will be twists yet to come

Duty281 wrote:Burnley and Sheffield United coming up next season. One of Luton, Middlesbrough, Coventry or Sunderland to come up via the play-offs.

Gut-feeling 'who would I like to see in the PL' rankings: 1 Sunderland 2 Coventry 3 M'boro 4 Luton. Not much between the top 3, so put your money on Luton.
Have to say the top two have done well, considering how many people thought they made fatal errors getting rid of successful managers.

Yes, Burnley in particular have bounced back very well. Mooted financial problems they would have from relegation don't appear to have materialised. I'm not massively fussed who goes up from the play-offs, but I'd have a narrow preference for Luton, who have never been in the PL and were playing non-league football just nine years ago. To be honest, I'm disappointed Millwall aren't coming up, but the Met Police probably don't share that disappointment.

At least it's not one of the boring teams, like West Brom, Norwich (sorry, Olly) or Watford, who just go up, do nothing and come back down again.

Pochettino is new Chelsea manager starting 2023-24 season.

Leicester's defeat to Liverpool means that West Ham are essentially safe, as it would need Leeds to win both remaining games and turn over a n 11 goal goal difference, plus Everton to pick up 6 points and Forest 4 - not happening. Southampton obviously gone. Two more from 4

Forest in the best position, 3 points clear but with a home game v Arsenal next, who won't want to lose the title by losing (playing Saturday, Man City play Sunday). Final game is away to Palace, who may well be on the beach by then

Everton 1 point ahead of Leeds and with only 1 goal better goal difference. Away at Wolves and home to Bournemouth both winnable at this stage of the season.

Leeds away at West Ham, who may be thinking about their upcoming European games, and home to Spurs, who are out of the running for even 5th place. Again, both games you'd like to get something out of at this stage.

Leicester 1 point further back but with better goal difference. Going against them is an away game to St James's Park, with Newcastle still needing points to guarantee Champions League qualification. That's quite a mountain to climb. Final game is at home to West Ham.

So Leicester deep in the mire, and could find themselves relegated after this weekend if results go against them (i.e. if both Leeds and Everton win). See a strong likelihood of Leeds winning with West Ham's mind's being elsewhere, while Everton v Wolves could go any way
Interesting position if Leeds draw and Everton lose by the odd goal, as they will be level on points and goal difference - Everton well behind on goals scored. If both Leeds and Everton win and Forest lose, Forest would be in the relegation positions on goal difference

Still think we need at least a point from the last 2. Probably not getting anything from Arsenal but might not be as bothered now.

Leicester need something from Newcastle or think they're probably gone

Ivan Toney has been banned for 8 months over the betting infringements.

Duty281 wrote:Forest already look relegated, fair to say. Only five points from ten and their next three games are Brighton/Liverpool/Arsenal.

Hey

GSC wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Forest already look relegated, fair to say. Only five points from ten and their next three games are Brighton/Liverpool/Arsenal.

Hey

Glad Forest stayed up. They might honour my pre-season prediction of 16th.

Reckon you can say that Arsenal over-achieved and had a terrific season AND still say they rather threw it away.

The table, showing Arsenal well ahead at times, was slightly misleading in that a postponement meant Arsenal had to play Man City twice in quick succession at a time when they were beginning to falter and City were gathering strength.

Those unhappy with City's dominance should remember that we've been here before. There were periods in the 1980s when Liverpool seemed to be champions every year. This was followed by 20 years of Man Untd ascendancy (1993-2013).

I've heard a bit about Arsenal bottling it which I think is nonsense. City have won 11 games on the bounce and simply powered down the stretch and that's why the title is staying with them. Arsenal, brave effort, but didn't have the squad depth to compete in the championship rounds.

Leeds have lost to West Ham despite taking an early lead, so they'll have to beat Tottenham next week to have any chance.

Leicester will still be alive on the final day I guess. To be honest I'm struggling to see Leicester or Leeds winning a game so Everton might just scrape it by default

City certainly showed Arsenal where the bar is set (extraordinarily high). I do think from an Arsenal perspective you can be more than a bit disappointed with how much they fell off down the stretch. Too many presentable points given away, leads blown etc. Liverpool came close and learned their lessons, will arsenal

I think the last few weeks have shown how important a strong and deep squad is -Arsenal have had a great season compared with pre-season expectations, but considering where they were in February will be disappointed that their title challenge faltered with a couple of injuries to the wrong players in the last few weeks. However, such a good season and Champions League football should attract some high quality players.

Oh, and City have been sensational - they last dropped any points in the league on 18 February, with a draw to Forest - 36 points in the last 12 games is a pace that puts a lot of pressure on their opponents

Could be a useful point for Leicester, though I have no idea how Newcastle didn't score.

Everton stay up if they win or Leeds/Leicester don't
Leicester if they win and Everton don't
Leeds if they win and Leicester don't and Everton lose (barring Leeds winning like 4-0)

Leicester played the game really well, sat back with a back 5 in the first half then went for it a bit more in the second half almost nicking it towards the end.

Obviously a great weekend for Forest, who I thought had a potentially tricky time. Was really expecting better from Everton and Leeds, to close the gap, but that wasn't how it panned out. Forest have definitely played their way out with 10 points from the last 15 in a spell where none of the teams below them have got more than 5 points over the same games.

Leeds now in big trouble - need to win and hope Leicester don't and Everton lose (an Everton draw would need Leeds to win by 3 goals, as they have a better goals scored record).

Leicester also need a win, but at least have the advantage of goal difference over Everton, so would then stay up if Everton draw.

Everton - in their hands. Win and they're safe regardless. Draw could well be enough.

Leeds at home to an out of form Spurs
Leicester at home to West Ham
Everton at home to Bournemouth

I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see all three being home wins. Then again with my record for predicting results, lump ALL your money on 3 defeats.

Think Leeds are probably gone. If they couldn't hold a lead against West Ham who played in Europe in midweek and had nothing to play for themselves, difficult to see them suddenly smashing Spurs to get the necessary goal difference.

Can Leicester win a game? Wouldn't really be betting on it to be honest, West Ham didn't exactly lie down for Leeds so not sure they're gonna be gracious opponents compared to Bournemouth who do seem to have hit the beach after securing survival.

Everton vs Bournemouth
Since securing premiership survival Bournemouth have lost their last three games.  They have nothing to play for for this season, so it is all about preparing for next season and allowing injured / half injured players to recover.  However Bournemouth wouldn't want to finish the season on four consecutive losses. Prediction: Win for Everton.

Leeds United vs Spurs
Spurs currently in 8th place and could finish as low as 9th.   Spurs have lost three out of their last four matches and seem to have lost their way completely.   This will be Ryan Mason's last match managing Spurs and could be Kane's last match playing for them.  Spurs will want to finish on a victory and could finish 7th.  However they appear hapless.  Prediction: Draw.

Leicester City vs West Ham United
This could be a dress rehearsal for West Ham players and Moyes for their cup match.  They will have ten days of recovery before their cup final with Fiorentina.  West Ham will want to perform well but won't risk players carrying knocks and other players will try to avoid injury.   However they will want to put on a good performance.  Prediction: Draw.

Does Frank get another job period after this? Been an absolute disaster from starting at Everton to ending at Chelsea.

Only jeopardy to end the season will be the last relegation spot

Lampard will get another job if he wants one. The recruitment of football managers is a strange business. But, yes, he has been an absolute disaster.