Rugby Championship

by No 7&1/2 Sat 06 Aug 2022, 3:58 pm

First topic message reminder :

Couldn't see a thread.

Must say its quite good in a weird way to see Hooper being very honest on his reasoning to pull out of the match. Talking about mental health slowly getting there.

I'm going to go rogue and pick 2 away victories today. Watch South Africa win by 50 now.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Aug 2022, 5:43 pm

Poorfour wrote:Wow. Immediate response from Mapimpi (and Marx, who made a great turnover)

Would have loved to have seen the turnover again. The director appears to not be showing it.

by Poorfour Sat 13 Aug 2022, 5:49 pm

That looked to me like Le Roux was outside the 22, but apparently not. Poor game management by the Boks, anyway.

by Poorfour Sat 13 Aug 2022, 5:51 pm

Surely Hendrikse was tackled off the ball there? Could be a card and possibly even a penalty try, though Luke Pearce is saying penalty only

by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Aug 2022, 5:52 pm

Bit lucky for SA he didn't catch the no arms tackle from Koch at the breakdown before but another awful bit of defence from NZ. Turnover ball at this stage with that much space and they've messed it up completely.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Aug 2022, 5:54 pm

And back to SA play for the scrum pen.

by Poorfour Sat 13 Aug 2022, 6:08 pm

Fair play to NZ, the way they scored in the last 10 minutes was much more like the All Blacks of old. The Boks looked like they’d run out of ideas once Am was off.

by formerly known as Sam Sat 13 Aug 2022, 6:14 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Unlucky. Looks a clear block that though.

Looks like the second row ran into him and milked it to me but he's in front of the ball so it's never going to look good.
And then he altered his run again to block Whitelock.
He may have got away with 1 but not the second being so blatant.

I didn't see him look behind or change his line in a way that wasn't natural to someone wanting to run a cheat line. He's in front of the ball though so Whitelock knew it was a pretty good bet. You don't get that many caps for the ABs without being adept at the dark arts.

Good win for NZ in the game but the box kick off the mail choice twice in the NZ half by SA gifted the ABs chance to run it back. The tactic was too obvious and it was easy for NZ to mark the back field. A couple of carries to tie in some backs and spread the back three and then a quick box kick from the base might have caused more issues.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Aug 2022, 6:14 pm

Yup. Fewer mistakes from NZ this week and they added the points as we know they can. I do think the ref made a huge difference to that result. SA knew they couldn't fly in and try to turnover the ball as they could last week.

by mikey_dragon Sat 13 Aug 2022, 6:19 pm

Great win for NZ. Brought in the big men this week and it worked. I still think they’re lacking the right balance, midfield especially. Frizell and the front-row changes worked really well. SA looked a bit spooked bringing on their best players quite early, but looked as though they’d get the win again until NZ came back.

Next week will be good, SA will go fully loaded.

by Duty281 Sat 13 Aug 2022, 6:21 pm

Very good win for NZ. Thought SA getting the ten points just before HT would be the turning point, but they kept making errors in the second half and their game management was rubbish.

by formerly known as Sam Sat 13 Aug 2022, 7:05 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yup. Fewer mistakes from NZ this week and they added the points as we know they can. I do think the ref made a huge difference to that result. SA knew they couldn't fly in and try to turnover the ball as they could last week.

That and blowing for the knock on before Am dotted down in the first half meant he couldn't go to the TMO and fix his error. SA try at 0-0 could have made a very different game.

The All Blacks looked like a side hurting. The intensity was dialled up massively from the previous week. Knee jerk reaction or something they can sustain?

by mikey_dragon Sat 13 Aug 2022, 8:08 pm

This rendition of Argentina’s national anthem is somewhat… questionable.

by Poorfour Sat 13 Aug 2022, 8:34 pm

The commentary team seem to be making up the Laws to suit themselves. The No 2 was clearly offside and then went for the legs.

by Poorfour Sat 13 Aug 2022, 8:44 pm

Cracking stuff from Argentina, but the commentary team are so one eyed it’s almost funny.

by tigertattie Sat 13 Aug 2022, 8:50 pm

Poorfour wrote:Cracking stuff from Argentina, but the commentary team are so one eyed it’s almost funny.

They are saving money by having one team cover it for all territories but they are making Jamie Heaslip sound objective.

There was a clear hit of the legs then a flip so it was a penalty. There was also two forward passes so take your pick.

In the meantime, Aus need to buy a new defence coach. Ouch. Argentina are scoring for fun

by Poorfour Sat 13 Aug 2022, 8:53 pm

That was a try. Oz very lucky there.

by Duty281 Sat 13 Aug 2022, 8:58 pm

Aussie defence has been garbage, but Argentina are always good for an implosion, so this could still go either way.

by tigertattie Sat 13 Aug 2022, 9:19 pm

These commentators don’t even know the bloody rules

by Poorfour Sat 13 Aug 2022, 9:39 pm

Koroibete’s tackling was pretty much the only thing keeping the Aussies in touch… but it looks like they’ve run out of time and ideas.
That rolling maul by Los Pumas was a thing of beauty - and deservedly restulted in what’s probably the winning try.

The commentators were probably right that the final movement was illegal - but the Aussies had committed so many infringements in the maul and after that they were probably on a YC anyway.

by Poorfour Sat 13 Aug 2022, 9:42 pm

The Aussies have conceded 24 points in the last 40 minutes with nothing in return. Looks like it wasn’t just Hopper’s head that wasn’t in the right place.

by Poorfour Sat 13 Aug 2022, 9:43 pm

And so they score just as I post that… The not held call is probably fair - and might have been why Dickson allowed the score at the other end.

by doctor_grey Sat 13 Aug 2022, 10:14 pm

Argentina looked really good today. Very physical but also moving the ball around. Really enjoyed the match.

by **RDW** Sun 14 Aug 2022, 1:07 am

Epic game in South Africa. ABs really fronted up and reduced the mistakes. Mo'unga made a real difference with his variety and nuance of passing. Savea is a freak.

Am is a sexy beast of a rugby player and it's a shame the try after his break was disallowed (although correct call). SA really ran out of steam in the last 10 which is testament to the work the ABs forwards did in the first 70.

Are the ABs back?

by **RDW** Sun 14 Aug 2022, 1:41 am

As for the Wallabies, if they have all their players fit and available I genuinely believe they'll have a chance of a run to the WC semis or even final. Problem is, if they lose some key players there is a huge drop off in performance.

They have a horrendous injury list just now and it's showing. I really fear for then coming north in November - can see them having a losing clean sweep again.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 14 Aug 2022, 2:54 am

The longer highlights package shows the penultimate All Blacks in full, from around the 12:45 mark.

I had a feeling New Zealand might front up. Then again, when Barrett drew that dumb yellow card, which let South Africa take an easy lead, it felt like the momentum had shifted.

Inevitably, some Springbok supporters (including the permanently-outraged YouTube channel TASanalytics) have taken issue with some refereeing decisions. It seemed like a fairly typical Luke Pearce performance, where he's a bit idiosyncratic but explains himself clearly.

by mikey_dragon Sun 14 Aug 2022, 12:29 pm

That was much better from Argentina. Previously they’ve looked quite limited. I think Aus could have a bad year, but once they’re more settled and get some players back they’ll be pretty good.

by doctor_grey Sun 14 Aug 2022, 3:34 pm

Reading your comments, it made me think how it would stand Rugby on its head to have a RWC final between France and Argentina....

by formerly known as Sam Sun 14 Aug 2022, 4:00 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Reading your comments, it made me think how it would stand Rugby on its head to have a RWC final between France and Argentina....

Can you imagine the headlines if Argentina won the world cup with a flyhalf Gloucester are using as a winger, a winger who mainly got game time because Johnny May's been injured.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 14 Aug 2022, 11:27 pm

Last week, the entire nation of New Zealand appeared to think Foster should go. Now, there seems to be widespread discomfort that the NZRU is hanging him out to dry, in a very public and prolonged way.

NZRU has fallen into the same endless review cycle patented by the RFU. Possibly, the union decided Foster would have to go, regardless of what happened in South Africa, and is still lining up the announcement. If, instead, Foster's future depended on the results, then you'd hope the NZRU would have gamed out some scenarios, and decided in advance what to do.

by yappysnap Tue 16 Aug 2022, 12:18 am

Yea, the feeling over here is that Foster has to go. But that result will give him time at least.

NZRFU should have done it after the Ireland series but bottled it, now they're stuck planning to remove him when he might suddenly pull some wins out of his behind.

Note I still feel that win really comes down to the players stepping up and playing out of their skins and SA being a bit lazy in that opening 20 - rather than anything changing coaching wise.

by formerly known as Sam Tue 16 Aug 2022, 8:07 am

It does seem a bit odd you'd sack him after he's turned it around. It's not like there's no one on the staff that they could have put in temporary charge either, Schmidt could have taken it on in a caretaker fashion until they'd decided on the long term option.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 16 Aug 2022, 8:21 am

Not sure he's turned it around after 1 win. They dropped fewer passes and dealt with the high ball a bit better (are SA now down to about their 5th choice right winger?), but I saw very little to suggest it's all great now. And the looming figure of Robertson remains.

by king_carlos Tue 16 Aug 2022, 2:28 pm

It will either be stick with Foster through the RWC or give Robertson the job I'd imagine.

Robertson of course has a brilliant Saders record but no international experience. So it's one of those appointments that seems a no brainer but if it failed would likely be branded as naive.

by formerly known as Sam Tue 16 Aug 2022, 2:59 pm

Very true KC which is why I think the NZRU didn't go for Robertson after the last world cup. They wanted someone that knew international rugby plus a continuity candidate is often a safe bet. Robertson presents more of a gamble, can he generate the same camaraderie that is so apparent in his Crusaders teams? That seems to under pin so much of what he's achieved there. Always tough if you go from coaching in that league to managing the national team as the media will quickly turn to the phrase 'favourite' if they don't like a certain selection from your former club side.

I can see the NZRU turning to Schmidt and urging Robertson to go abroad get experience and then come back in four or five years time.

by king_carlos Tue 16 Aug 2022, 3:11 pm

They could also go with Robertson but try to surround him with coaches that have international experience.

With the Women's RWC this year then naturally less rugby for the Black Ferns the year after it wouldn't surprise me at all if Wayne Smith ends up involved even if in a consultancy basis. He is one of the most influential minds in the history of rugby coaching. If the ABs are still struggling, by their standards of course, then having him in contract with the NZRU but not involving him would seem a waste.

by doctor_grey Wed 17 Aug 2022, 12:54 am

king_carlos wrote:They could also go with Robertson but try to surround him with coaches that have international experience.

With the Women's RWC this year then naturally less rugby for the Black Ferns the year after it wouldn't surprise me at all if Wayne Smith ends up involved even if in a consultancy basis. He is one of the most influential minds in the history of rugby coaching. If the ABs are still struggling, by their standards of course, then having him in contract with the NZRU but not involving him would seem a waste.

Of course Wayne Smith is a good coach. He learned it all when he coached at Saints!

by **Rugby Fan** Wed 17 Aug 2022, 3:37 am

NZRU has just announced unanimous backing for Foster through to the next World Cup.

Wonder if Robertson has been promised the role after the World Cup, to keep him onside.

by yappysnap Wed 17 Aug 2022, 5:25 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:It does seem a bit odd you'd sack him after he's turned it around. It's not like there's no one on the staff that they could have put in temporary charge either, Schmidt could have taken it on in a caretaker fashion until they'd decided on the long term option.

From the press here I get the feeling the powers that be in the NZRFU really don't like Schmidt. No idea why but just a sense they would do anything to not have him or be seen to need him.

by yappysnap Wed 17 Aug 2022, 5:26 am

king_carlos wrote:It will either be stick with Foster through the RWC or give Robertson the job I'd imagine.

Robertson of course has a brilliant Saders record but no international experience. So it's one of those appointments that seems a no brainer but if it failed would likely be branded as naive.

Yea there's loads of Hype about Robertson but then there was about Robbie Deans previously...

by king_carlos Wed 17 Aug 2022, 11:27 am

yappysnap wrote:
king_carlos wrote:It will either be stick with Foster through the RWC or give Robertson the job I'd imagine.

Robertson of course has a brilliant Saders record but no international experience. So it's one of those appointments that seems a no brainer but if it failed would likely be branded as naive.

Yea there's loads of Hype about Robertson but then there was about Robbie Deans previously...

Todd Blackadder too.

Robertson is such a charismatic coach and has the Saders playing in a fun style which undoubtedly helps his profile. It's unavoidable that he has no international experience though.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 17 Aug 2022, 6:28 pm

yappysnap wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:It does seem a bit odd you'd sack him after he's turned it around. It's not like there's no one on the staff that they could have put in temporary charge either, Schmidt could have taken it on in a caretaker fashion until they'd decided on the long term option.

From the press here I get the feeling the powers that be in the NZRFU really don't like Schmidt. No idea why but just a sense they would do anything to not have him or be seen to need him.

Hmm that's interesting, from the outside looking in it looked like he was the heir apparent. First appointed a selector, then a consultant, took control when Foster had Covid and is now a fully fledged assistant. I'd assumed manoeuvred into position to be the fallback guy when it doesn't work out with Foster.

by yappysnap Wed 17 Aug 2022, 10:05 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
yappysnap wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:It does seem a bit odd you'd sack him after he's turned it around. It's not like there's no one on the staff that they could have put in temporary charge either, Schmidt could have taken it on in a caretaker fashion until they'd decided on the long term option.

From the press here I get the feeling the powers that be in the NZRFU really don't like Schmidt. No idea why but just a sense they would do anything to not have him or be seen to need him.

Hmm that's interesting, from the outside looking in it looked like he was the heir apparent. First appointed a selector, then a consultant, took control when Foster had Covid and is now a fully fledged assistant. I'd assumed manoeuvred into position to be the fallback guy when it doesn't work out with Foster.

Perhaps you're right there. But it felt like after the first win against Ireland, any interview with the NZ powers were keen to stress Fosters hand in it, and down play Schmidt.

Foster has old boy backers though, and perhaps that's them more talking up their man to avoid admitting mistakes, then them talking down Schmidt.

by doctor_grey Thu 18 Aug 2022, 6:53 am

So, just when you think you know what is going on down there:

The Times, 18 August wrote:The former Ireland head coach Joe Schmidt will become a permanent member of New Zealand’s backroom staff as they take steps to bolster their ailing fortunes.

Speculation over the future of Ian Foster, the head coach, was ended by New Zealand Rugby on Tuesday night as he was backed to lead the side to the World Cup next year, but Schmidt has stepped up from an advisory role to join Foster’s coaching team.

After the 2-1 series defeat by Ireland last month, Foster had survived a review but lost two of his assistant coaches, John Plumtree and Brad Mooar, with Jason Ryan brought in to coach the forwards and Schmidt given a role as selector and adviser on opposition analysis and attack.

“[The board] have unanimously agreed they have absolute confidence that Ian and this coaching group are the right people to lead the All Blacks through until the World Cup,” Stewart Mitchell, the NZR chairman, said. “This has been privately and publicly validated by our players and various conversations with our high-performance team.”

by formerly known as Sam Thu 18 Aug 2022, 6:09 pm

yappysnap wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
yappysnap wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:It does seem a bit odd you'd sack him after he's turned it around. It's not like there's no one on the staff that they could have put in temporary charge either, Schmidt could have taken it on in a caretaker fashion until they'd decided on the long term option.

From the press here I get the feeling the powers that be in the NZRFU really don't like Schmidt. No idea why but just a sense they would do anything to not have him or be seen to need him.

Hmm that's interesting, from the outside looking in it looked like he was the heir apparent. First appointed a selector, then a consultant, took control when Foster had Covid and is now a fully fledged assistant. I'd assumed manoeuvred into position to be the fallback guy when it doesn't work out with Foster.

Perhaps you're right there. But it felt like after the first win against Ireland, any interview with the NZ powers were keen to stress Fosters hand in it, and down play Schmidt.

Foster has old boy backers though, and perhaps that's them more talking up their man to avoid admitting mistakes, then them talking down Schmidt.

That's understandable because Foster was under pressure at that point already and he missed that game with Covid with Schmidt taking control. The old boys wouldn't have wanted to see Schmidt be billed as the natural replacement for Foster after that instant impact.

by mikey_dragon Sat 20 Aug 2022, 7:46 pm

For me the All Blacks are lacking midfield options. The second five-eight always worked well for NZ, and Havili is a good player but it's not clicking. I also think Reiko Ioane is better on the wing. My back three would consist of him, Sevu Reece and Will Jordan at full-back. Back-row should be Frizell, Ardie Savea at 7 and either the Chiefs or Blues No.8. Smith and Mo'unga as halfbacks. B Barrett on the bench (or he could start at 10). I don't rate Jordie Barrett all that much, has a bit of a slappable face too but you wouldn't do it as then you'd have to deal with the bigger brother.

I expect ALB will come back in when available. What ever happened to Ryan Crotty?

by formerly known as Sam Sat 20 Aug 2022, 9:22 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:For me the All Blacks are lacking midfield options. The second five-eight always worked well for NZ, and Havili is a good player but it's not clicking. I also think Reiko Ioane is better on the wing. My back three would consist of him, Sevu Reece and Will Jordan at full-back. Back-row should be Frizell, Ardie Savea at 7 and either the Chiefs or Blues No.8. Smith and Mo'unga as halfbacks. B Barrett on the bench (or he could start at 10). I don't rate Jordie Barrett all that much, has a bit of a slappable face too but you wouldn't do it as then you'd have to deal with the bigger brother.

I expect ALB will come back in when available. What ever happened to Ryan Crotty?

Crotty is coining it out in Japan.

Havilli just looks a bit short of international standard it seems. He worked better with Mo'unga last weekend which is unsurprising given they are club mates. I think Ioane looks like he's becoming a good 13, when the ABs attack stops stuttering and actually clicks he might get some ball to run with. Same with Clark on the wing who looks a real threat when he actually gets the ball. Barrett was strong at 15 last weekend, could be a coming of age performance from him as he really was key to defusing the Bok kicking game.

I think part of the problem is that the ABs aren't quite sure what they want at 12. Havili is the cover all bases type option because he is competent at everything but not outstanding at anyone thing also.

by mikey_dragon Sun 21 Aug 2022, 10:06 am

If one of the others aren't playing I would put Caleb Clarke to win, possibly D-mac in full-back. Their wing and fly-half options look pretty good. I guess they could also try Havili at 10.

All Blacks look as though they could do with a better 12, and I was never sold on Goodhue, at least not yet. I think he's an okay player who fits into a world class system (a bit like Jordie). I wonder if Caleb Clarke fancies a go at 12...

by yappysnap Mon 22 Aug 2022, 11:03 pm

Not just that, their locks aren't what they used to be and their backrow is only a fraction as good as it should be.

Until those 5 players in the pack are sorted then their backs are always going to stutter.

by mikey_dragon Tue 23 Aug 2022, 9:19 am

Scott Barrett is a good all-rounder, and they have Retallick to come back at some point. I think Whitelock is a bit past it tbh. The back-row needs Ardie at 7 and a No.8 at No.8, even though Ardie is doing great there he's only accomodating Cane.

by Poorfour Tue 23 Aug 2022, 12:10 pm

It’s been notable since 2015 that the All Blacks are vulnerable when they don’t have a good lock pairing. It used to be that if one of Retallick or Whitelock was injured, they looked a lot less secure, but now they need to bring a new generation through and it’s not clear whether Barrett can reach the heights of those two and certainly not whether they’ve got a pairing to match them. The gameplan relies a lot on the locks carrying one out from the ruck (where other teams would tend to use props more often), and can be disrupted if they don’t have locks who can reliably do that phase after phase.

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