Scotland 6N lookahead

First topic message reminder :

Results in aggregate this year for the national team were:

5 February 2022 - Scotland 20–17 England
12 February 2022 - Wales 20–17 Scotland
26 February 2022 - Scotland 17–36 France
12 March 2022 - Italy 22–33 Scotland
19 March 2022 - Ireland 26–5 Scotland
2 July 2022 - Argentina 26–18 Scotland
9 July 2022 - Argentina 6–29 Scotland
16 July 2022 - Argentina 34–31 Scotland
29 October 2022 - Scotland 15–16 Australia
5 November 2022 - Scotland 28–12 Fiji
13 November 2022 - Scotland 23–31 New Zealand
19 November 2022 - Scotland 52–29 Argentina

P 12 W 5 L 7

There are definitely coaching options available if the SRU are smart, far sighted and invite a coach to bring his entire team with him.

For example, Leon Macdonald and Tom Coventry have turned the Blues from a national disaster into the best NZ Super Rugby franchise in 3 years.

Dan McKellar did great things with the Brumbies and he has been moved to Wallabies assistant coach. I would take him and his team in a heartbeat.

John Dobson turned a god awful Stormers team into one of the best franchises around with bugger all money.

To suggest that there aren't great coaches who would be keen to step up to test rugby is not correct - we just need to hire one.

George Carlin wrote:There are definitely coaching options available if the SRU are smart, far sighted and invite a coach to bring his entire team with him.

For example, Leon Macdonald and Tom Coventry have turned the Blues from a national disaster into the best NZ Super Rugby franchise in 3 years.

Dan McKellar did great things with the Brumbies and he has been moved to Wallabies assistant coach. I would take him and his team in a heartbeat.

John Dobson turned a god awful Stormers team into one of the best franchises around with bugger all money.

To suggest that there aren't great coaches who would be keen to step up to test rugby is not correct - we just need to

These are all decent options but fall into the 'taking a punt ' category as it's not a guarantee a good club coach will be successfully at international. That's the point I'm making - we're probably gonna have to take a bit of a gamble.

I like your Dan Mckeller idea - he gives a real hard edge in his coaching, which we definitely need. He only has a year of international coaching express though so very much a punt. Post WC though he'll know a lot more about what it takes at that level.

Aye, the SRU should be discussing succession at thus point. It's going to be a competitive market and will require some slight amount of canny thinking.

We got Vern because he, on a personal level, disliked the way scotland were viewed as a national side and so was attracted to the project.

Toonie was a talented up and coming coach who had done great things with Glasgow and, as a scotsman, wanted the scotland job.

Now, the attraction to the job currently is that we still have a talented wee pool of players and it could be argued we are underperforming. So, aspiring coach may find it easy to make a bit of a splash with an eye on a bigger job. But would this suit scotland long term? I'd like someone who was really enthusiastic for making big changes to national team and who was up for a potential long run (2 world cups maybe).

It's not going to be Robertson but as pointed out above and previously, a good quality prem coach or a successful saffer coach would be a good catch

Absolutely! A lot of unions seem to go for a safe bet in the established coaches. As they say, when you invest there is always risk. Cotter was a great coach who was doing well in France, starkly better than AR who had a wealth if international experience. I’d take a promising super rugby coach over an Eddie Jones any day personally. Considering how much we bang on about Ireland’s structure being the benchmark perhaps an Irish coach would be a great one for Scotland post the Townsend era.

Yes, something that I thought might be obvious but I will say it out loud anyway - Scotland will not get a top tier coach with proven international experience.

I would much rather settle for a Super Rugby coach with passion and a track record in getting the best of out of his players.

Everyone is jizzing their respective shorts about Robertson - he doesn't have international experience either - however, everyone is convinced that he is a quality coach.

I would rather get new blood into the Scottish scene. And I'm not talking about Jim's home made black pudding.

I think I owe you an apology RDW as it seems I misunderstood your original point .

I totally get where your coming from regarding not likely to attract/appoint a "top/tier 1 coach" and that we'd need to "take a punt on someone ".

I actually like that idea and the ones suggested from Super Rugby, ot could end up being a masterstroke too which is a bonus.

I am going to throw another name into the mix now that he's likely to be sacked by England after Eddie's sacking and he's a former international: Matt Proudfoot.

Highland Shaun wrote:I think I owe you an apology RDW as it seems I misunderstood your original point .

I totally get where your coming from regarding not likely to attract/appoint a "top/tier 1 coach" and that we'd need to "take a punt on someone ".

I actually like that idea and the ones suggested from Super Rugby, ot could end up being a masterstroke too which is a bonus.

I am going to throw another name into the mix now that he's likely to be sacked by England after Eddie's sacking and he's a former international: Matt Proudfoot.

Nothing to apologies for!

On the plus side, there likely won't be that many equivalent teams looking for coaches next year, particularly with Jones and Pivac now gone. In my mind it's only really likely that the ABs and Argentina who could be looking, barring any shocker results for other nations in the WC.

I also note that O'Gara has signed a 5 year extension at La Rochelle. He's maybe taking a very longterm view on the Irish coaching role.

RDW wrote:

Highland Shaun wrote:I think I owe you an apology RDW as it seems I misunderstood your original point .

I totally get where your coming from regarding not likely to attract/appoint a "top/tier 1 coach" and that we'd need to "take a punt on someone ".

I actually like that idea and the ones suggested from Super Rugby, ot could end up being a masterstroke too which is a bonus.

I am going to throw another name into the mix now that he's likely to be sacked by England after Eddie's sacking and he's a former international: Matt Proudfoot.

Nothing to apologies for!

On the plus side, there likely won't be that many equivalent teams looking for coaches next year, particularly with Jones and Pivac now gone. In my mind it's only really likely that the ABs and Argentina who could be looking, barring any shocker results for other nations in the WC.

I also note that O'Gara has signed a 5 year extension at La Rochelle. He's maybe taking a very longterm view on the Irish coaching role.

Australia too.

Teams who will be after a new coach after the world
Cup

Us
Wales (gatland is a stop gap)
NZ
Oz
France (if they don’t win the World Cup)

We’ll be struggling. We’re not a team with potential to win trophies nor are we a bunch of rejects where a good coach may want to prove himself with.

tigertattie wrote:Teams who will be after a new coach after the world
Cup

Us
Wales (gatland is a stop gap)
NZ
Oz
France (if they don’t win the World Cup)

We’ll be struggling. We’re not a team with potential to win trophies nor are we a bunch of rejects where a good coach may want to prove himself with.

He has a reported 5 year contract.

Oakdene wrote:

tigertattie wrote:Teams who will be after a new coach after the world
Cup

Us
Wales (gatland is a stop gap)
NZ
Oz
France (if they don’t win the World Cup)

We’ll be struggling. We’re not a team with potential to win trophies nor are we a bunch of rejects where a good coach may want to prove himself with.

He has a reported 5 year contract.

Is there not a suggestion he's going to take on more of a DOR roll post WC?

Tramptastic wrote:

Oakdene wrote:

tigertattie wrote:Teams who will be after a new coach after the world
Cup

Us
Wales (gatland is a stop gap)
NZ
Oz
France (if they don’t win the World Cup)

We’ll be struggling. We’re not a team with potential to win trophies nor are we a bunch of rejects where a good coach may want to prove himself with.

He has a reported 5 year contract.

Is there not a suggestion he's going to take on more of a DOR roll post WC?

This is the WRU we're dealing with here.....expect the unexpected!

We’re all assuming Toonie will be gone after the World Cup but is there an argument for him remaining? Would it take a 6N win and WC semi-finals? If Scotland hadn’t been so inconsistent this year he may have been better placed to continue after the RWC.

My guess is that Gatland will successfully coax Tandy back to Wales. Especially as he’s had a Lions tour working with him. Also, the likelihood of getting Edwards back from France seems pretty low and probably out of the WRU budget.

If Scotland’s results are good I would not disagree with Toonie continuing as head coach. Gatland has proven that longevity as an international head coach is possible but it has to come with a high win ratio and silverware. Considering Scotland have won more trophies in individual matches under Townsend is undoubtedly a positive, but Scotland still lack a 6N trophy. That is the one they really need their head coach to be capable of obtaining. Last chance saloon for Toonie.

I certainly wouldn't complain at that @bsando but do believe he'll be gone after the world cup unfortunately.

You make a good point about longevity but on the flip side of what you said, it could go wrong like happened with England under EJ.

I think we can safely put our houses on Scotland searching for a new coach by October/November next year :P

`interesting chat about Russell. This was obviously filmed before Toonie was forced to bring him back in when Hastings got 'injured'.

Townsend time is done, especially after another year in charge. He needs to go find his next challenge if we get a 6N win and a RWC semi-final. The players are probably ready for a new voice as well.

A slightly left field choice would be going for Pat Lam. His star has fallen with Bristol underperforming, however he has won a club championship with the afterthought of the Irish regions and plays an attractive brand of rugby. He would probably feel he can get the most out of Russell and Hastings (best 10's he will ever of worked with)

Hazel Sapling wrote:Townsend time is done, especially after another year in charge. He needs to go find his next challenge if we get a 6N win and a RWC semi-final. The players are probably ready for a new voice as well.

A slightly left field choice would be going for Pat Lam. His star has fallen with Bristol underperforming, however he has won a club championship with the afterthought of the Irish regions and plays an attractive brand of rugby. He would probably feel he can get the most out of Russell and Hastings (best 10's he will ever of worked with)

Pat Lam is the highest paid coach in world rugby, I can't see the SRU getting close to the figure required. Even if his deal runs out next year, I'm not sure he'd be willing to take the significant drop in wages required to be viable, and that is assuming he doesn't renew at Bristol.

Well, just out of loyalty to you guys I spent a fair bit of the weekend drinking in Bath and listening to Bath supporters' views on their Scottish players.

D'Arcy Rae "He's got all the parts to be a really good prop but he never seems to put them together." was fairly typical. Gareth Chilcot said, "He's been in and out with injury so he's not really had a chance to settle into the side." Which is a fairly polite version of the first comment.

Josh Bayliss The feeling among most was hat if all their back rowers were fit he would , maybe, be on the bench. Which I think is where he is with Scotland; a squad player but not quite forst team.

Cam Redpath I thought McDowall was the better 12 on Saturday. "He played one outstanding game last year. Against England! Other that that he's been pretty average." was how the locals felt, and they see him most weeks.

So, based on my scientific research; Fagerson-Dempsey-Darge for the back row, Shona-Shuggy in the centres.

Looks like racing are trying to keep Finn now. Reported an offer of 1m which would have him as one of the highest paid rugger players out there.

He’s apparently turned down the Bristol offer which didn’t match the racing one.

tigertattie wrote:Looks like racing are trying to keep Finn now. Reported an offer of 1m which would have him as one of the highest paid rugger players out there.

He’s apparently turned down the Bristol offer which didn’t match the racing one.

Doesn't surprise me. It's not obvious whom his replacement would be with Racing with Ntamack at Toulouse, Jalibert at Bordeaux and Carbonel at Montpellier all nailed on for their clubs. Botica would never leave Castres. That means Racing would be taking a punt on another foreign unknown quantity. One thing is for sure, I don't think that failing to win the Champions Cup in recent years is down to him.

The only play that Racing managed when they were squished by Leinster came through him.

Zander Fagerson is a doubt for the 6 nations.

Oakdene wrote:Zander Fagerson is a doubt for the 6 nations.

Feck

tigertattie wrote:Looks like racing are trying to keep Finn now. Reported an offer of 1m which would have him as one of the highest paid rugger players out there.

He’s apparently turned down the Bristol offer which didn’t match the racing one.

I thought beauden Barrett was being lined up for Racing, which is why they weren't going to keep Finn. That's maybe fallen through.

RDW wrote:

tigertattie wrote:Looks like racing are trying to keep Finn now. Reported an offer of 1m which would have him as one of the highest paid rugger players out there.

He’s apparently turned down the Bristol offer which didn’t match the racing one.

I thought beauden Barrett was being lined up for Racing, which is why they weren't going to keep Finn. That's maybe fallen through.

Can only assume. There is no way they are going to pay two players that amount of cash

I don’t know if whocares is still on the forum. He was our go to guy for french rugby gossip

Well this is getting confusing. Apparently Racing have offered a lower amount to what he is currently on as they want to sign Barrett or Simmonds (Exeter 10). This means Russell is now likely to go to bath after all and will be the highest paid player in the prem.

Surely Russell is better than simmonds? Bizarre.

Would be a good move from a Scotland point though. He could form a great partnership with Redpath and will be in the window more than in France

I got the impression from gossip online that his agent is doing his job to get the best deal at either Bath or Racing. My money would be on him staying at Racing but both teams are good options I guess.

Barrett apparently asked New Zealand Rugby if he could play overseas and still be an all black which didn't go down well. I guess he has credit in the bank and it was worth a shot, but certainly didn't pan out. So if he were to sign for Racing it would be after the 2023 RWC and his last season for NZ presumably? Although he may just do a two season jaunt then head back to Blues. Guess we'll see if he opts for that or if he decides to remain in NZ. It must be frustrating when other former All Blacks you know are winning trophies in the Champions Cup or Top 14 etc. If you're good enough you'd want that challenge, especially if you've done all you wanted to at club level back in NZ.

Does anyone know the extent of Adam Hastings injury? He hasn't played since getting smashed in the AIs. The fact it's been very quiet suggests ongoing concussion issues.

He injured his knee as well as the whiplash he suffered, so maybe due to that

Crosbie MOTM again - if he keeps this up he'll surely be in 6N contention.

Given we're not big on carriers in the backrow I like the extra dimension you'd get from him playing at 7. Not as strong a poacher but Ritchie and Fagerson are.

Would he make a decent 8? We’re still crying out for a good 8.

Bit harsh on Fagerson! I've never been his biggest cheerleader but he is a definite start for Scotland these days.

I just feel there would be better balance if we had a big carrier in that trio, particular with Watson beginning to feel his age

I felt Crosbie got messed about when coming through. Should have been a bruising 6/8 option considering he is 6'5. If Ritchie is at 6, we can get away with Crosbie at 7 though I view Crosbie more as a back-up to Ritchie.

With Darge and Watson, I would hope one (if not both) are ready to go by the Six Nations.

Has anyone seen how Richardson at the Sharks is getting on?

Richardson does not seem to have played for the Sharks for a little while.

As he was getting MoM plaudits at the beginning of the season, I am assuming this is due to injury and not form!

I’d certainly expect to see Crosbie in the squad. His stats are very good for Edinburgh this season. Top defender and most turnovers for his club. Excellent gain line success. Toonie should not be afraid to award good form. Muncaster and Haining are not at same level as Crosbie just now. If Gary Graham was considered worthy a few seasons ago Crosbie should be fine.

Hamish Watson has apparently been stood down from rugby after multiple concussions, with the latest happening against NZ. Not good, and could spell the end.

It did not sound as bad as that when i read about it.

According to MB he is doing light training and weights with no ill effect and is waiting for a specialist opinion to resume playing. He had a couple of concussions in close succesion, hence the rest period and further medical opinion. It sounded very much like he would be back after a period of rest.

You can't be to careful though, and a bit of time out will do him no harm at all at this stage in his career.

If not the end then the beginning of the end potentially. He may come back soon but once you've had a few concussions at the end of your career you're on a ticking time bomb.

You would imagine that Hamish would be seeing the next WC as his swan song. He is at that stsge of his career.

It may not be his head injuries that keep him out of the Scotland team, though, but his form. He has not looked the same player as his Lions selection peak ever since then in truth.

Watson's game is all about dynsmism, he does not have the raw physicality of other back row stars and if he has lost a little of that at his age, he may struggle to get it back.

Hope Hamish doesn't go the same way as Alexandre Lapandry, ex Clermont and France back rower.
Lapandry suffered several concussions in 2019 and was stood down for 3 months. He tried to come back and still suffered headaches etc. Clermont sent him for all the appropriate neurological tests and the club kept him on for another 9 months or so but to no avail. He was forced to retire
Rather sadly I read recently that he is suing Clermont for damages.
A one club player who won the T14 as a youngster back in 2010 and a veteran in 2017.
A sad way for a much loved player to have to end his long and illustrious career.

That case was a bit more complicated than it seems.

Clermont put his condition down to concusion and he felt it was not being investigated properly by the club and so arranged for an independent view on it. It was then discovered he he had had a cerebelum stroke, cause by a clot This can effect balance and dizziness.

He was prescribed anti coagulants for this as treatment and the FFR immediately withdrew his playing licence. He was not even given a send off by Clermont, for whom he had played all his career.

It sounds like he was treated very shodily by his club and he is very bitter about that. That and his missdiagnosis seems to be why he is suing them and he also said he wants to highlight the issue of how clubs treat players.

That is really disgraceful if Lapandry was actually treated that way by Clermont. I kept an eye on his availability and he was shown as being in the Infirmire for almost all of last season with few updates as to his progress.

Apparently he was offered the vacant lineout coach role last summer, I was surprised that he turned it down. Seems like this issue was the reason.

I read an official response on the Clermont website robustly defending their treatment of Lapandry.
Sounds like this is heading for the courts.

The case brought by Jamie Cudmore against Clermont and his multiple concussions is still running, or hasn't yet been heard.

Not a good look for such a massive and well supported club

It's been 27 years since rugby turned professional, allowing players to become far faster and stronger, and hence much more destructive in contact. It doesn't surprise me at all that we're hearing more and more injury stories from current and former players. I'm quite sure that in the next 20 years a lot of the game's legends will report neurodegenerative conditions and head problems in general.

I think that Rory Lamont was the first really good Scotland player for whom head injuries stopped his career and it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that the Mish is in this position. I suppose the argument is that with modern headgear, concussion protocols and medical staff more aware than ever about what to look for, we're protecting players as much as we can possibly protect them. It's also true that the combination of beauty and brutality is what makes the game so attractive to so many people.

Very hard to know what to do about this. Whilst I understand the desire to sue a former club (particularly if you don't have much else in your life apart from rugby at the end) it's quite difficult to argue that you didn't accept some sort of risk when you chose this as a career.

George Carlin wrote:It's been 27 years since rugby turned professional, allowing players to become far faster and stronger, and hence much more destructive in contact. It doesn't surprise me at all that we're hearing more and more injury stories from current and former players. I'm quite sure that in the next 20 years a lot of the game's legends will report neurodegenerative conditions and head problems in general.

I think that Rory Lamont was the first really good Scotland player for whom head injuries stopped his career and it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that the Mish is in this position. I suppose the argument is that with modern headgear, concussion protocols and medical staff more aware than ever about what to look for, we're protecting players as much as we can possibly protect them. It's also true that the combination of beauty and brutality is what makes the game so attractive to so many people.

Very hard to know what to do about this. Whilst I understand the desire to sue a former club (particularly if you don't have much else in your life apart from rugby at the end) it's quite difficult to argue that you didn't accept some sort of risk when you chose this as a career.

I think the most dangerous period experienced by players will have been from 2000 - 2011 (roughly). This was the period where professionalism was still relatively new but also the period where we saw the biggest growth in body size/muscle mass in combination with poor attitudes by coaches and players to concussion.

Post 2011 there began a shift in attitude to concussion, or at least that's when the player community and fans started to speak about it more.

I can imagine the likes of Rory lamont and others in the scotland squad being shouted at by Robinson to just get on with it or "man up".

I think in the more modern professional era, maybe since the 2015 world cup, players AND coaches are more aware of the dangers of concussion and World rugby has been far more proactive in trying to reduce head knocks/build in suitable recovery protocols.

I doubt we'll see many cases brought to court from the past 5-10 years of players. But for that main 00s period there's going to be a huge stooshie. Maybe even a stramash!

I wonder if we'll end up going full circle - given there is so much attention and care on concussions, will players start hiding their symptoms again as they know they might get stood down for several months if they admit they're struggling? That could mean the difference between a new contract and trying to find a new club.

Such a difficult topic!

RDW wrote:I wonder if we'll end up going full circle - given there is so much attention and care on concussions, will players start hiding their symptoms again as they know they might get stood down for several months if they admit they're struggling? That could mean the difference between a new contract and trying to find a new club.

Such a difficult topic!

Is a solution to this not just a concussion insurance policy paid for by the club/country? I.e. if any of our players have to retire due to medical advice on the basis of concussion then theres a payout by club/country and its not variable from player to player in terms of payout, its basically enough money to get you started on another career? The premiums would be high but if it means players not being daft with regard to their heads then it can only be a good thing?

Perhaps just adopt Edinburgh's Space Core Directive 1742:

"No (a) scrum half, (b) Stockbridge resident or (c) player with a haircut costing more than £200, shall be expected to tackle anyone, ducky".

Well it's new year which means time to start worrying about the 6N! It's fair to say I'm not looking forward to this one with much enthusiasm.

Glasgow's form of late has improved, but a lot of that improvement hasn't come from players likely to be involved in the 6N. Tuipolotu and R Gray are in great form and should start against England.

Edinburgh's form meanwhile has absolutely nosedived, and indeed we actually played better without our Scotland players.

Combine that what Hogg's poor form, Duhan not looking sharp, Darcy injured etc we're not exactly romping into the 6N.

There's still a bit of time to go, so hopefully the situation improves!

Well apparently Ben Healy has been reapproached by Toonie so there's some potentially good news if he goes full turncoat!

Is he really an international 10 / worth the investment in time at the expense of others?

I'm concerned we're seeing him through the "he's new so must be amazing" lenses

I've barely watched him play so it's a genuine question!

He looked promising when he broke into the Munster squad but his form seemed to stagnate quite quickly. Has now been overtaken by Crowley as second best 10 at Munster and being talked up as Ireland 10, once Sexton picks up his bus pass in 2042.
It makes me so depressed that we might go running after a player of bang average ability just because it's quicker and easier than developing our own players.
Cooney is another kettle of fish. He has the quality to put pressure on Price or Horne. Would be a bit of a bonus for the World Cup squad.