URC Round 4

It appears the URC games are now on Discovery Plus, not sure when that happened must have slipped my news feed but there you go.  

Some great games this weekend, off to Ulster v Ospreys tomorrow myself.

Friday 7th October 2022

Connacht v Munster- The Sportsground, Galway – KO 19.35 IRE & UK / 20.35 ITA & SA
Live on: TG4, Premier Sports, SuperSport, Discovery + & URC.tv

Edinburgh Rugby v Emirates Lions- The DAM Health Stadium, Edinburgh – KO 19.35 IRE & UK / 20.35 ITA & SA
Live on: Premier Sports, SuperSport, Discovery + & URC.tv

Saturday 8th October 2022

Zebre Parma v DHL Stormers- Stadio Lanfranchi, Parma – KO 15.00 IRE & UK / 16.00 ITA & SA
Live on: Eurosport, Discovery + , SuperSport, Premier Sports, TG4 & URC.tv

Leinster v Cell C Sharks- RDS Arena, Dublin – KO 17.05  IRE & UK / 18.05 ITA & SA
Live on: RTÉ, Premier Sports, SuperSport, Discovery + & URC.tv

Scarlets v Cardiff Rugby- Parc Y Scarlets, Scarlets – KO 17.15 IRE & UK / 18.15 ITA & SA
Live on: Premier Sports, SuperSport, Discovery + & URC.tv

Glasgow Warriors v Vodacom Bulls- Scotstoun Stadium, Glasgow – KO 19.35 IRE & UK / 20.35 ITA & SA
Live on: Premier Sports, SuperSport, Discovery + & URC.tv

Ulster v Ospreys- Kingspan Stadium, Belfast – KO 19.35 IRE & UK / 20.35 ITA & SA
Live on: BBC NI, S4C, Premier Sports, SuperSport, TG4, Discovery + & URC.tv

Sunday 9th October 2022

Benetton v Dragons RFC- Stadio Monigo, Treviso – KO 14.45 IRE & UK / 15.45 ITA & SA
Live on: Discovery +, BBC Wales, Premier Sports, SuperSport & URC.tv

Ten changes for Dragons. Ben Carter becomes Dragons second youngest captain, only beaten by the prince of centres Ashley Smith. From the Argus.

Dragons: Angus O'Brien; Rio Dyer, Max Clark, Jack Dixon, Jared Rosser; JJ Hanrahan, Lewis Jones; Rob Evans, Elliot Dee, Chris Coleman, Joe Davies, Ben Carter (captain), Sean Lonsdale, Ben Fry, Aaron Wainwright.

Replacements: Bradley Roberts, Rhodri Jones, Lloyd Fairbrother, Ross Moriarty, Taine Basham, Rhodri Williams, Sam Davies, Steff Hughes.

Benetton include nine Italy internationals in the XV plus English winger Marcus Watson, Kiwi lock Scott Scrafton and Argentinean pair Ignacio Mendy and Tomas Albornoz.

Benetton: Edoardo Padovani; Marcus Watson, Ignacio Brex, Tommaso Menoncello, Ignacio Mendy; Tomas Albornoz, Dewaldt Duvenage (captain); Ivan Nemer, Giacomo Nicotera, Simone Ferrari, Scott Scrafton, Federico Ruzza, Manuel Zuliani, Michele Lamaro, Lorenzo Cannone.

Replacements: Manuel Arroyo, Thomas Gallo, Tiziano Pasquali, Niccolo Cannone, Toa Halafihi, Sam Hidalgo-Clyne, Marco Zanon, Mattia Bellini.

Nine changes for Ulster from last week

(15-9): Michael Lowry, Craig Gilroy, Luke Marshall, Stuart McCloskey, Rob Lyttle, Ian Madigan, John Cooney;

(1-8): Eric O’Sullivan, John Andrew, Marty Moore, Alan O’Connor (Captain), Sam Carter, Nick Timoney, Jordi Murphy, Duane Vermeulen.

Replacements: Declan Moore, Andy Warwick, Tom O’Toole, Frank Bradshaw-Ryan, Marcus Rea, Dave Shanahan, Billy Burns, Aaron Sexton.

Ospreys

Backs: 15-9: Max Nagy, Luke Morgan, Owen Watkin, Michael Collins, Keelan Giles, Stephen Myler, Reuben Morgan Williams

Forwards 1-8: Gareth Thomas, Dewi Lake, Tom Botha, Rhys Davies, Huw Sutton, Will Griffiths, Jac Morgan, Dan Lydiate (Capt)

Subs: Scott Baldwin, Nicky Smith, Rhys Henry, Jack Regan, Morgan Morris, Rhys Webb, Jack Walsh, Joe Hawkins

Excellent win by Connacht this evening in the interpro derby with Munster. 20-11 maiden win on their new pitch. Not a bump in sight.

Connacht bag the four points to get off the bottom of the table - have to see whether Zebre and Scarlets keep them off the bottom.

Lions with 3 away wins in a row, they are looking really good right now

Munster beyond bad - absolutely terrible 1 to 23

A complete and utter shambles.

As some on the Munster site have said JVG did an excellent job of keeping a mediocre side so competitive

Now the wheels have seriously fallen off the wagon

Look at their big named Irish players - POM, Earls, Zebo, Beirne, Murray, Kilcoyne not one under 30 and 4 of them over 33.

As to others JOD and Carberry seem to have forgotten how to play rugby, Coombes is going backwards and Healy's body language is terrible.

Munster forums  saying Carberry should not even be in the 23.
Successor to Sexton, you're having a laugh never was and never will be good enough.

geoff999rugby wrote:Munster beyond bad - absolutely terrible 1 to 23

A complete and utter shambles.

As some on the Munster site have said JVG did an excellent job of keeping a mediocre side so competitive

Now the wheels have seriously fallen off the wagon

Look at their big named Irish players - POM, Earls, Zebo, Beirne, Murray, Kilcoyne not one under 30 and 4 of them over 33.

As to others JOD and Carberry seem to have forgotten how to play rugby, Coombes is going backwards and Healy's body language is terrible.

Munster forums  saying Carberry should not even be in the 23.
Successor to Sexton, you're having a laugh never was and never will be good enough.

For me POM in the final minutes against Zebre dropping the ball sums up were Munster is at. They have no idea how to run and pass at the same time. Once they have to look up and see what to do they forget the are holding the ball.

They realistically have till the end of the AIs to turn it around and look better.

The big worry is they already have played the 3 worse team from last season already so it's not like they have easy games left. Connacht are the highest placed team they have played who didn't make the Top 10.

Zebre look ok against Stormers.  They have nearly half the points of last season.  After today will have played 4 of last season's top 6. The fact Stormers are kicking so many goals shows they are very nervous.

It's hard to judge this early after decline of some teams, but the bottom teams seem much improved in the early rounds.

Ulster have confirmed the signing of Rory Sutherland to end of season. Also strongly hinted in the same article on their website that Kitschoff will be joining after world cup too.

Leinster loves running obstruction lines

Great game of rugby. This has to be up there with the highest standard in club rugby. This is brutal for the players.

For a centre ringrose is a pretty good winger.

Great second half by Leinster. Sharks not covering out wide and kicking possession away in the second half.

I still think Sharks need a better coach.

Who do referees allow Sexton to yap off so much?

Phenomenal game of rugby. The Sharks are quite the team and really put it up to us. The exciting thing is there is so much quality still to come into both sides.

Well rumours of the decline of the northern hemisphere seem a little exaggerated as Glasgow give the Bulls a shellacking.

A taste of true northern hemisphere winter conditions were not to the Bulls liking, but Glasgow managed to play well in it. A very impressive and physical performance,

Scarlets are terribly bad, they lost to Cardiff at home!

Ulster cruised past Ospreys last night, never really let Ospreys get into the game. Injuries to Madigan and Burns at outhalf will be a worry before the trip to South Africa though

mikey_dragon wrote:Scarlets are terribly bad, they lost to Cardiff at home!

Turnbull pretty good though?

Ospreys were rubbish at Ravenhill.

Worst side we have played this year so far.

RiscaGame wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Scarlets are terribly bad, they lost to Cardiff at home!

Turnbull pretty good though?

Not for me. An average flanker struggling to get over the gain line during a match between two of the worst teams in the league. Dragons have flankers half his size who regularly break the gain line.

To put things in perspective, Shanks also said Priestland was good and a POTM contender. RP has been slow and rubbish in all 3 games.

geoff999rugby wrote:Ospreys were rubbish at Ravenhill.

Worst side we have played this year so far.

Looks like they were saving their frontline players for Stormers next week. Hopefully they can get a win at home.

Kingshu wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Ospreys were rubbish at Ravenhill.

Worst side we have played this year so far.

Looks like they were saving their frontline players for Stormers next week. Hopefully they can get a win at home.

Just don’t bet on it.

geoff999rugby wrote:Ospreys were rubbish at Ravenhill.

Worst side we have played this year so far.

It was basically a training run for Ulster with light contact (barring Marty's HIA).
It's gutting to see how bad the O's have become, I've always enjoyed watching them until fairly recently.

Dragons faired better in Italy than they have done in recent years. We made some changes to the lineup when perhaps we sholdn't have, so the team were a bit error-strewn in the first half. We had made our way back in but were then undone by some very good play from Benntton. I'm not sure why Welsh teams rest players to prioritise derbies, these games have become nothing but dross.

Pete330v2 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Ospreys were rubbish at Ravenhill.

Worst side we have played this year so far.

It was basically a training run for Ulster with light contact (barring Marty's HIA).
It's gutting to see how bad the O's have become, I've always enjoyed watching them until fairly recently.

That was miles off their first team

mikey_dragon wrote: I'm not sure why Welsh teams rest players to prioritise derbies, these games have become nothing but dross.

Because winning those is the best way to qualify for the Champions Cup as you take points off the rivals for that qualification.

PhilBB wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote: I'm not sure why Welsh teams rest players to prioritise derbies, these games have become nothing but dross.

Because winning those is the best way to qualify for the Champions Cup as you take points off the rivals for that qualification.

Fair, I wonder who will get bragging rights for being the 'best' Welsh team this season?

PhilBB wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote: I'm not sure why Welsh teams rest players to prioritise derbies, these games have become nothing but dross.

Because winning those is the best way to qualify for the Champions Cup as you take points off the rivals for that qualification.

Is that still the case this season?

Oakdene wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote: I'm not sure why Welsh teams rest players to prioritise derbies, these games have become nothing but dross.

Because winning those is the best way to qualify for the Champions Cup as you take points off the rivals for that qualification.

Is that still the case this season?

I believe so

https://www.unitedrugby.com/match-centre/shields/202201

Oakdene wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote: I'm not sure why Welsh teams rest players to prioritise derbies, these games have become nothing but dross.

Because winning those is the best way to qualify for the Champions Cup as you take points off the rivals for that qualification.

Is that still the case this season?

Yes. There's a vote by the URC stakeholders at some point this season as to whether they continue this arrangement or default to using a straight meritocratic top 8 in the league. The vote has to be unanimous reportedly to continue with present arrangement.

Thanks I couldnt remember when the vote was.

Munster on 6 points after playing the bottom 3 from last season and Connachr who were near the bottom. Disastrous start but there are big changes happening.

PhilBB wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Ospreys were rubbish at Ravenhill.

Worst side we have played this year so far.

It was basically a training run for Ulster with light contact (barring Marty's HIA).
It's gutting to see how bad the O's have become, I've always enjoyed watching them until fairly recently.

That was miles off their first team

It was a fair distance off Ulster's too, we lost Marty Moore early on and in the 2nd half With Cooney out on the wing, Shanahan at scrum half and Burns back on the bench with Sexton at fullback it was a mish-mash of a backline playing out time with a win and bonus in the bag, and the forwards thinking about a bit of South Africian sun.

As Pete said miles away from the Ulster first XV too

No Herring, Henderson, Baloucoune, Hume, Stockdale

Moore only player 20 mins, Burns didn't start and wasn't fit, Marcus Rea only came on as a sub. Sutherland will be the LH
for the big games

Thats 9 players who didn't play, or made a minimal contribution who you would expect in the strongest starting XV

At the end we only had Gilroy in his preferred position from 10 to 15.
Most vulnerable backline we have put out in year - didn't matter against such weak opposition

The gap is only going to widen. Ulster are signing world cup winners like Kitschoff now. Welsh teams can barely attract any good players, maybe 1 per team - and no decent coaches would touch them with the clubs never even knowing their budgets for the next season.

Welsh rugby is in the worst mess it's been in my lifetime. And I was a fan in the 90s.

I think the scarier thing is that whilst true Kitshoff is coming - Carter , Sutherland and Vermuelen will all be going.
If Wasps go under and Ulster can persuade Tom Willis to join (IQ) Ulster could be down to only 2 IQ players and no one qualified as a project.
The second NIQ would be a squad player - Toomunga-Allen

The difference is not, primarily about high profile foreigners but the difference between the IQ and WQ players

Vermalen is 37. He's old and expensive, so a younger, better version will just be purchased.

geoff999rugby wrote:
The difference is not, primarily about high profile foreigners but the difference between the IQ and WQ players

And ability to pay them loads of money, and the ability to attract good coaches.

RugbyFan100 wrote:Vermalen is 37. He's old and expensive, so a younger, better version will just be purchased.

Who, as I indicated could well be IQ

RugbyFan100 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
The difference is not, primarily about high profile foreigners but the difference between the IQ and WQ players

And ability to pay them loads of money, and the ability to attract good coaches.

Do not underrate the fact that Ireland have successfully, made it clear, that if you don't play in Ireland you don't play for Ireland.
Since Tommy Bowe only Sexton has bucked that trend.

As a consequence a number of players remain in Ireland at salaries lower than you might expect.
I also think the inclination to leave is lower in Ireland than it is elsewhere.

I know Wales have changed the rules putting constraints on playing outside Wales but they are not complete in a way they are in Ireland.

A genuine question - what is the extent of top Welsh players playing outside Wales ?

geoff999rugby wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
The difference is not, primarily about high profile foreigners but the difference between the IQ and WQ players

And ability to pay them loads of money, and the ability to attract good coaches.

Do not underrate the fact that Ireland have successfully, made it clear, that if you don't play in Ireland you don't play for Ireland.
Since Tommy Bowe only Sexton has bucked that trend.

As a consequence a number of players remain in Ireland at salaries lower than you might expect.

You said that there are few non Irish players in Ireland, so given salaries are "lower than you might expect" - where is the €68,000,000 player and management costs going?

A genuine question - what is the extent of top Welsh players playing outside Wales ?

Depends on the definition of extent. Players like Dan Biggar were just too expensive for Welsh teams. Now he's at the twighlight, I expect he'll go back to Ospreys on reduced salary or say goodbye and go to Japan.

Players like Tshiunza and Rees-Zammitt are interesting. They might have a decision to make at contract renewal time depending on the policy of the WRU.

Then you have the 38 elite squad. Sometimes it's good for those 38 as they'll be playing in Wales, which on paper makes it good for the Welsh clubs. But the release time is huge and the clubs barely see them for huge chunks, and if you're cut out of the 38 like Jonah Holmes was - your pay massively reduces almost overnight.

Understanding Financial Reports is not my area of expertise - too much gobbledegook but what I can tell you is that whatever makes up the 68 million a quarter of it 17 million euro is not anything like Ulsters salaries which are something like 40% of that figure and that includes Central Contracts.

My question on Welsh players elsewhere is how many of the players who are genuine International contenders are not playing in Wales.

geoff999rugby wrote:
My question on Welsh players elsewhere is how many of the players who are genuine International contenders are not playing in Wales.

About 5.

Daf Jenkins, Christ Tshiunza, Dan Biggar, Rees-Zammit; I'm being generous with Jenkins as although he is good he hasn't had enough game time IMO. I've left out Calum Sheedy and Ioan Lloyd, the former not being good enough and the latter not featuring enough at the end of last season or this season.

I can't think who else would be in the mix. We've brought a lot of them home already.

*Edit; I missed out Tommy Reffell. He would be my first choice at 7.

geoff999rugby wrote:As Pete said miles away from the Ulster first XV too

No Herring, Henderson, Baloucoune, Hume, Stockdale.

I know you're affected by Ireland and Emerging Ireland, but really you'd only miss Henderson and Stockdale here. Perhaps unfair on Herring but his stand-in (Andrew) is about as good. Moving forward, I don't see Herring getting much Ireland time if the two Leinster hookers are avaiable.

Ospreys were strong up front, even though I think they lost one or two just before the matchday? Lydiate and Myler. I still thought they put out a good team and they should have done better. When you look back at it, they weren't missing that many of the first team. Arguably, Dewi Lake should always be in the first team.

mikey_dragon wrote:Daf Jenkins, Christ Tshiunza, Dan Biggar, Rees-Zammit; I'm being generous with Jenkins as although he is good he hasn't had enough game time IMO. I've left out Calum Sheedy and Ioan Lloyd, the former not being good enough and the latter not featuring enough at the end of last season or this season.

I can't think who else would be in the mix. We've brought a lot of them home already.

*Edit; I missed out Tommy Reffell. He would be my first choice at 7.

In the Wales squad:

Tshiunza
Rees-Zammit
Sheedy
Biggar
Tompkins
Refell

Andrew is an good squad player but his performance against Ospreys was a cut above his usual.

Herring has a much higher ceiling.

Also you didn't mention Baloucoune.
Which winger, other than Stockdale, do you think is his equal??

None of them come remotely close

I think Baloucoune is an okay player for now, is all. Again, you might know a lot more about him than I do.