England's Winter of Cricket 2022/23

First topic message reminder :

Of course we have the World T20 covered in a separate thread, but I thought we should have a new one for England's upcoming games this winter, which feature:

Three ODIs in Australia (17th-22nd November)
Three tests in Pakistan (1st-21st December)
Three ODIs in South Africa (27th January-1st February)
Two tests in New Zealand (16th-28th February)
Three ODIs in Bangladesh (March)

Looking forward to the tests, but I think the ODIs will be instantly forgettable!

alfie wrote:I am puzzled as to why he's been so poor today.(Leach , that is )  Especially the number of rubbish short balls he's sent down - money for old rope to these two left handers.  
.

Really quite poor - Root looked far more in control and more threatening. Pitch isn't turning massive but there's enough assistance for him there

The injury to Imam - who seems to be fairly well recovered - has probably served Pakistan well overall. Rizwan got them away to a frisky start (and possibly impacted Leach's confidence ?) ; and now Imam is anchoring the chase rather well.

England plugging away but at the moment they seem bereft of inspiration and are effectively just dwelling on a mistake. No aid for the seamers (since those magic balls in the last session !) and the spinners were just dispensing runs when they were on.

Wonder how WINVIZ is rating this now ? Couple of wickets and you'd think England have it : but if these two are still in overnight ...

Hundred stand. And it looks as if England might have missed a trick then : didn't review that and there's a small twitch on the device ...should have believed Root that time !

I did think it was worth a shout , to be honest. But having wasted that silly lbw one earlier...

Robinson bowling no balls ; some of the England body language not the best : am I allowed to get a bit wobbly yet , Olly ?

We probably need Trebell...

Have struggled to watch this rubbish over the past few days, but we might be in for another close finish to keep it interesting.

Leach has been bowling like a bespectacled Simon Kerrigan, but somehow its him with the breakthrough!

Out of the blue ! Sharp grab by Root...end of Imam after an excellent innings of 60 that has brought his side back into contention...

And relief and a wicket for Jack Leach !

Needed that.

Faheem Ashraf night watchman ? Call Guildford...

A bit of a gift at the end of the day but England certainly needed that

alfie wrote:Hundred stand. And it looks as if England might have missed a trick then : didn't review that and there's a small twitch on the device ...should have believed Root that time !

I did think it was worth a shout , to be honest. But having wasted that silly lbw one earlier...

Robinson bowling no balls ; some of the England body language not the best : am I allowed to get a bit wobbly yet , Olly ?

We probably need Trebell...

No wobbling here yet Alfie - still a long way to go yet! Especially with a new ball on the horizon, and likely enough time for them to get that ball reverse swinging too...

Setup nicely though - Shakeel is playing a good hand again

Yeah I think the description "nicely balanced" fits the case ? Two wickets and you'd reckon the rest might be rounded up pretty quickly ; but with Shakeel looking solid and not much happening off the pitch taking them isn't guaranteed. Had that 4th wicket not fallen , I reckon Pakistan would arguably have been favourite overnight...but it did. And these two have to start again.

Might be interesting tomorrow.

Whatever happens , I do maintain England probably got a bit ahead of themselves after gaining a first innings lead. Their second innings was a very mixed bag : some sensible , positive cricket ; some dozy running - and a rather disappointing fold up at the end . A bit more concentration and they could surely have put the lead over 400 and out of Pakistan's reach. They play exciting , colourful cricket ; but lack the ruthlessness typical of the really great teams. Think they can probably blend a bit of that in as they continue to develop.

For tomorrow , it is where it is. Hope they are on the ball from the start

England batted like idiots, but that's Bazball for you. Going to the wire again, Pakistan bat a little deeper this time. New ball might be key, though the target could be below 100 by that point.

PAK sent their bowling all-rounder Fahim. He averages 30+ in tests and close to 40 I believe in FC
Batting at no.6 will make him bat more responsibly and will still preserve the batting all-rounder Salman ....an almost full batsman in hand.
At No.8 is Nawaz ...also a bowling all-rounder so they have 4 batters in hand and have to bat out almost 2 sessions ...and they will win
The chance of Pak winning is low at around 20% in my view but more than they had at the end of D4 in T1
This is a much flatter pitch IMO on D4 then Pindi was on D5

alfie wrote:Out of the blue ! Sharp grab by Root...end of Imam after an excellent innings of 60 that has brought his side back into contention...

And relief and a wicket for Jack Leach !

Needed that.

Faheem Ashraf night watchman ?  Call Guildford...

Ah ha, missed the closing overs and that Faheem had been pushed up the order. Yep, poor call by the batting side - the captain needs to show confidence in his number 6 and the number 6 needs to show he's confident to bat. Should help us get an early morning wicket and further raise England's hopes. That said, from a quick butcher's at cricinfo, Faheem isn't the worst of night watchmen with a fc averge of 30 and 3 tons to his name.

KP_fan wrote:PAK sent their bowling all-rounder Fahim. He averages 30+ in tests and close to 40 I believe in FC
Batting at no.6 will make him bat more responsibly and will still preserve the batting all-rounder Salman ....an almost full batsman in hand.
At No.8 is Nawaz ...also a bowling all-rounder so they have 4 batters in hand and have to bat out almost 2 sessions ...and they will win
The chance of Pak winning is low at around 20% in my view but more than they had at the end of D4 in T1
This is a much flatter pitch IMO on D4 then Pindi was on D5

Believe what you want but that's b*ll*cks. 31.80 in tests but 30.07 in FC per cricinfo.

So test match average of 32 is correct?
Over 14 tests and 25 innings
What does this say about his batting skill level ?

Wouldn't have made Pakistan favourites even if the fourth wicket had not fallen.

They have been set the biggest score of the match to win in the 4th innings and achieving that very rarely happens in Tests (The Leeds 2019 miracle was one example).

Also there are "easy" runs in a long chase. This means that sides often make good inroads into large totals (say, get to 200 for two chasing 450 or 500) but then find it harder after that.

350 in the last innings is always going to be difficult. I expect England to win.

KP_fan wrote:So test match average of 32 is correct?
Over 14 tests and 25 innings
What does this say about his batting skill level ?

Not a mug as I suggested earlier but still with a FC average around 10 less than Agha Salman who was selected as the number 6 and should imo have stayed there unless good reason be shown otherwise.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. Whatever happens will be as you claimed it would.

sirfredperry wrote:Wouldn't have made Pakistan favourites even if the fourth wicket had not fallen.

They have been set the biggest score of the match to win in the 4th innings and achieving that very rarely happens in Tests (The Leeds 2019 miracle was one example).

Also there are "easy" runs in a long chase. This means that sides often make good inroads into large totals (say, get to 200 for two chasing 450 or 500) but then find it harder after that.

350 in the last innings is always going to be difficult. I expect England to win.

Alfie and Olly - Another reader of the Guildford/Stewart Book of Tactical Moves. 

guildfordbat wrote:

KP_fan wrote:So test match average of 32 is correct?
Over 14 tests and 25 innings
What does this say about his batting skill level ?

Not a mug as I suggested earlier but still with a FC average around 10 less than Agha Salman who was selected as the number 6 and should imo have stayed there unless good reason be shown otherwise.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. Whatever happens will be as you claimed it would.

That you don't like the concept of Night watchman is OK
An Opinion heard .

That the guy here averages 32 and about  four and a half runs more in tests than the one slotted to have been in..
Just isn't making the point you'd like to argue here

KP_f - my main point was that it seems unnecessary and possibly wussy to have changed the batting order. Maybe it'll work tomorrow but more often than not this sort of thing doesn't.
I would comment more but have to put the bins out.

Enjoying watching Guildford and KP_fan going head to head overnight

Ashraf isn't really your classical nightwatchman I guess...no mug with the bat so maybe not much difference ; but it seemed a bit odd that he's swapped spots with Salman . Perhaps they think he may bring a more aggressive approach on resuming in the morning , and help to bring this target down fairly rapidly ahead of the new ball , increasing the pressure on England.

As Sir Fred suggests , the earlier part of one of these "long" chases often appears relatively easy , only to end in a rapid collapse as the law of averages dictates a few cheap wickets at some point. Psychological factors affect the action ; reasons why 350 plus chases are rarely successful . The two differences in this case are the extremely large amount of time left in the match and the fact that the pitch , somewhat counter intuitively , seems to be easier for batting now than on the first couple of days. Which is why I reckon Pakistan have a much better chance of winning than most thought - or still think.

I do still expect an England win - provided Stokes gets his bowling tactics right (think he rather overdid the two spinner period yesterday) ; but if they don't take a couple of wickets early it may get closer than optimal for the comfort levels of England fans . One thing that hasn't changed with the new order is that England generally don't do "easy"...

Not that Stokes will care. His England are about entertainment as well as winning and have
been managing both pretty well lately !

KP_fan wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

KP_fan wrote:So test match average of 32 is correct?
Over 14 tests and 25 innings
What does this say about his batting skill level ?

Not a mug as I suggested earlier but still with a FC average around 10 less than Agha Salman who was selected as the number 6 and should imo have stayed there unless good reason be shown otherwise.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. Whatever happens will be as you claimed it would.

That you don't like the concept of Night watchman is OK
An Opinion heard .

That the guy here averages 32 and about  four and a half runs more in tests than the one slotted to have been in..
Just isn't making the point you'd like to argue here

Salman has played 3 Tests. Taking an average off the back of that is meaningless. In F-C cricket Salman has 14 tons and averages nearly 40. Clearly a good bat. Ashraf has 3 tons and averages barely over 30. Clearly he knows which end of the stick to hold but it's a considerably worse record that Chris Woakes for instance.

Ashraf hasn't been promoted because he's a better batter that Salman in these conditions. He was promoted to protect the better batter at the end of the day. That is a nightwatchman regardless that Ashraf is a better batter than Matthew Hoggard. So Guildford's point is fair in my opinion.

The nightwatchman debate is as old as cricket these days. Personally I'm not a big fan of it. If a batter is going to score runs they need to be in the middle!

OK , away we go to the strains of Jerusalem from the touring supporters...

Anderson opening up. No slips , couple of short covers. Lots of cracks showing in the surface , but it hasn't got any quicker by the look of that over

With two left handers in , it is Root from the other end. Needless to say , important first hour coming up...

200 up.

Presume I am alone on here - no early risers ?

Calm start by Pakistan. Few pushed singles , one controlled drive for four off Jimmy.

Ball looks very old and tattered. Bit hard to see where a wicket might come from at the moment.

208/4

Ha ! I am claiming that

Root gets one to grip , Ashraf edges and Crawley no mistake at slip

What England wanted...210/5 and here comes... Nawaz ? Strange ...must really want to have two left handers , so Salman still being held back. Hmm. Questionable tactic , I think but we will see.

That is fifty Test wickets for Root , by the way.

Why I never - ( what , never ? No never... What , never ?....hardly ever. ...thanks G & S ) like "no slips" :

Jimmy to new batsman ; edges ...four runs. In fairness it was probably too wide and low so no matter ; but I always think there is a chance the ball might go there - especially with a chap just coming in.


Wood on now ...and he does have a slip.

Root looking a bit menacing now...

guildfordbat wrote:KP_f - my main point was that it seems unnecessary and possibly wussy to have changed the batting order. Maybe it'll work tomorrow but more often than not this sort of thing doesn't.
I would comment more but have to put the bins out.

Nawaz came ahead of Agha Salman
Implying that Salman is unfit in some.way or been punished with a time out

Only confirming what I suspected that Faheem wasn't a night watchman
Because you don't send an averaging 32 batsman to protect a newbie
You would send the most capable of the 3 bowlers to protect both Salman and Faheem

Had to miss the last fifteen minutes (proof reading my son's Uni thesis - last minute as usual !) and back to see not much has happened ...but Pakistan will be happy to be still five down and at 232/5 getting ever closer... Nawaz being promoted may have been a good move as he's scored 17 from 17 , while Shakeel stays steadfast and safe as the "anchor".

New ball three overs away ; and here's Jack Leach...

Drama ...Shakeel sweeps , gloves it , no leg slip in place , four runs. Close.

Actually ultra edge reveals that even had Pope made a miracle catch , it would not have been out - he missed it and it just turned a long way.

117 more to win. Wood steaming in. All pretty intense.

Drinks at 246/5 ...new ball is ready. And taken immediately .

No surprise. England need wickets soon or this is getting away. First hour about what Pakistan wanted , and with Salman still to come they'll be fancying this.

Robinson...

The rather expensive Leach not trusted with the new ball this time...Joe Root again.

Nawaz is going to go after him...down the ground , four more. Goes to 27 from 32.

252/5 . Pakistan on the charge ...

Reuirement in double digits now
3 batters and 3 bowlers in hand for Pak.
It's getting almost even.
One batter has to bat until the end and the 3 batters have to take it within 30 runs of the target

Still no England fans watching ? Just me and KP_fan ? Missing some tense stuff...

Under 100 needed now. Nawaz could be batting his side to victory here while the Immoveable Object Shakeel locks down the other end.

Baz still looks relaxed on the balcony.

Fifty stand up. Stokes turns to Leach now. Fair to say he's looked The Weakest Link so far in this innings so he will be desperate to work some magic ...

Still keeping Jimmy up his sleeve. And his own Golden Arm option is unused as yet.

262/5

Robinson has beaten Nawaz outside off several times ...but no edge yet. I'm getting the feeling this just isn't going to happen for England today.

Still time - 88 more needed. But you'd think they need a wicket pretty soon or we are off to Karachi one all...

alfie wrote:Still no England fans watching ? Just me and KP_fan ?  Missing some tense stuff...

Under 100 needed now. Nawaz could be batting his side to victory here while the Immoveable Object Shakeel locks down the other end.

Baz still looks relaxed on the balcony.

Morning / Evening Alfie - joining you from a snowy Blighty. Baz may be relaxed but I'm not! 

Had hoped for more than the one wicket so far today. Leach's figures this dig make for poor reading. I see Root got the night watchman but would still look to go with and mix the seamers. Would particularly like Wood's pace soon. Any news on why Stokes hasn't bowled this match?

Anderson at last. Has he got a joker up his sleeve ? Need to find one from somewhere...

Locals getting very vocal. Sensing a glorious victory in prospect. Can't blame them .These two are playing so soundly - with just the odd bit of luck - that it really does seem England are starting to hope rather than believe.

No Stokes team will ever give up : but even the gaffer is looking concerned.

The little things are all going one way...edge for four off Jimmy , top edged sweep falls safely...and worst of all I'm out of Whisky

This appears to be over, runs coming quite quickly and just about enough batting to get over the line even if a wicket falls. England going to be on the end of a large chase, but these sort of chases now happen quite often given the speed that games tend to progress

Welcome aboard Guildford ! We need you !

Stokes heard you re Wood.

And he's got him !!!!!

Hope springs ...

Really well played Nawaz...has probably made Pakistan favourite. But that wicket means England are only one more away from the rabbits so maybe there's a twist in the tail yet.

65 more needed . Bit of pressure back on the bats. Nervous twenty minutes to lunch now - for everyone.

Before I could type - Here's Wood as I wanted. At least something will happen ...

He goes for a boundary and gets Nawaz caught behind!

Very comfortably taken by Pope who has gone rather unnoticed behind the stumps - doing well again in that role.

Well there is a wicket! Think England have to go with pace now. Pakistan should still do it if they don't panic, but England shouldn't be gifting them Leach's boundary balls

VTR wrote:This appears to be over, runs coming quite quickly and just about enough batting to get over the line even if a wicket falls. England going to be on the end of a large chase, but these sort of chases now happen quite often given the speed that games tend to progress

Welcome and good work, VTR. An old fashioned jinx is just as effective as Wood!

Has Wood got Shakeel ?

Soft signal out...close to touching ground . (Great grab by Pope )

Big moment...

Joel Wilson on the job...

OUT !

Well what a change has come over the game , since Guildford , VTR and Wood got involved

Can debate that decision over lunch I guess. One more over and then all parties can enjoy a probably jittery forty minute break !

Massive moment, such fine margins, and not exactly great bowling, but I suppose extra pace can create mistakes of any kind. England are very suddenly the favourites here!

But there was time for England to waste a review. Silly. Not even close. That's really daft ...they only have one left now ; which might yet come back to bite them.

Grrr.

alfie wrote:But there was time for England to waste a review. Silly. Not even close. That's really daft ...they only have one left now ; which might yet come back to bite them.

Grrr.

Missed that in real time, making an over due coffee. Just see now - ridiculous review. 

Btw, Alfie, shouldn't your lad be buying you a bottle of whisky for your thesis reading? 

Bet that Joel Wilson call will be featuring on chat sites for ages ! Really hard to be sure , looking at TV pictures .

But : batsman appeared to think he was out ; on field umpire thought so too. Pope really did seem to have the ball in his control. Might it have touched grass ? No way to be sure but I am inclined (OK , unconscious bias maybe) to believe that was a fair catch. Anyway , it's in the book...

Obviously I am delighted at the break ; but some sympathy for Shakeel who had battled so hard and well. He deserved a hundred - and I'd have happily given him one if he'd promised to get out straight after

64 more looking a bit tough for Pakistan now . Salman will need to do most of the work...and Jimmy had him in some difficulties last over. But the way this game has swung around I am not game to call it yet. Nerves as much as - or more than - skill will probably decide it.

For all the fears of a flat pitch , smog reduced hours , etc - this has been a damn good Test Match

guildfordbat wrote:

alfie wrote:But there was time for England to waste a review. Silly. Not even close. That's really daft ...they only have one left now ; which might yet come back to bite them.

Grrr.

Missed that in real time, making an over due coffee. Just see now - ridiculous review. 

Btw, Alfie, shouldn't your lad be buying you a bottle of whisky for your thesis reading? 

You're right , guildford - he probably should ! But he's had about 5 hours sleep in the last 48 , along with a lot of pacing around and agonized muttering (he always leaves these things to the last ten minutes of the submission deadline) : he's off to his mate's place to chill. My better half and I can relax a bit ourselves now ...

At least I didn't miss a wicket

I think the nerves will now be with the batting side. It's not every Monday I wake up and one of the first thing I do is look up the batting averages of Pakistani bowlers, but they are not looking good for 9-11. Even KP Fan would struggle to round them up to something suggesting much competence. Pakistan do still have a route to victory of one or a couple of them hanging around with the number 8, but it's not a great position to be in

In line with Alfie and VTR, I regard us as favourites but there's still proper work to do.

Re the Pope catch of Shakeel - Atherton rather criticised Wilson on Sky saying he was surprised that the third umpire was 'satisfied Pope had his gloves under the ball'. I'm in turn surprised Atherton said that as it misses the point, albeit a nerdy one. The key thing was the on field soft signal of 'out'. Imo, there wasn't enough evidence to overturn that and so Wilson was correct in the decision he gave. Anyway, more good work by Pope - if he hadn't got to the ball, it would have been another boundary.

Here we go gain. Seam and pace for me please.