England's Winter of Cricket 2022/23

First topic message reminder :

Of course we have the World T20 covered in a separate thread, but I thought we should have a new one for England's upcoming games this winter, which feature:

Three ODIs in Australia (17th-22nd November)
Three tests in Pakistan (1st-21st December)
Three ODIs in South Africa (27th January-1st February)
Two tests in New Zealand (16th-28th February)
Three ODIs in Bangladesh (March)

Looking forward to the tests, but I think the ODIs will be instantly forgettable!

Even if they don't win, I love this England team and everything about them.

From the despair of losing about 86 test matches in a row, I now tune in with the expectation that we will win.

Absolutely remarkable turnaround in English test cricket and I now want Stokes for PM and McCullum to be my dad.

alfie wrote:Reckon Wood has been really good today . Nothing doing for him off the pitch , but he's just kept hammering away , giving it everything each over. Has been a  big factor in pressuring the bats ,  great assistance to the spinners at the other end.

He has grown in stature this year , for mine. Like a few of his teammates  , I guess. Hasn't generally done as well at home so will be interesting to see how he performs this coming summer...

Totally agree about Wood. He's a valuable part of this England team. A bit like my friend Starc (comments on RoW thread refer) he can sometimes go for a few but he's usually making things happen and now more regularly getting something in the end column. Wood's been tidier on this tour too. Particularly like the way, he and Starc can take an unresponsive pitch out of the equation.

I know and understand some weren't keen on Wood playing in this already won series but, unless he has a definite current injury or proper niggle of some sort, I would usually want to play him. Look to what he might do rather than him breaking down.

So a gettable target...not one they can chase tonight ! But they'll want to play positively and get a decent start to take a bit of the edge out of Pakistan.

Yes...four from the first ball . Good footwork...

Abrar and Nauman will be dangerous , no doubt . But you'd think it is a lot to ask of the two of them with not much backup.

Two fours now ! Like it

England don't plan on coming back tomorrow

This team is just ridiculous. 18 year old leggie takes a five for, and now blazing towards the target. I can still recall quite vividly England's painful poking and prodding around when failing to chase a similar total in the UAE about ten years ago

Brisk start

These two well suited to this sort of game plan. Takes confidence : but that is what this team has , under the current management . Helps that they've won 8 out of 9...

Somewhere in a hotel room in Australia, Dean Elgar is simmering and muttering under his breath about respect and rocking back and forth in a chair saying "it won't work, it won't work"

Not going to finish tonight ; but might not need many in the morning. Pretty awesome dismembering of the bowling...

Random statistical point :

Assuming no miracle collapse , this will be the first Test England have won without either Broad or Anderson for fifteen years.

Pakistan should lose 2 reviews for calling for that one!

And another - although not quite so dreadful a call!

guildfordbat wrote:Pakistan should lose 2 reviews for calling for that one!

Not to worry ...they've just lost the second one anyway

Nighthawk!

Crawley gone after a very entertaining 41. He may be disappointed not to have gone on but he is always so good to watch when he's firing...

And here comes Rehan Ahmed as the Night Hawk ! Olly will be over the moon

Christmas almost a week early for Olly and JD!

I am in heaven

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I am in heaven

Maybe back down off that cloud , Olly...

Rehan may have to work on his slog technique a bit yet.

Not sure why it's Stokes now . Surely he can't get these runs in ten minutes ? Let's not go too silly...

Think we will be off shortly. These bad light regulations are inflexible.

If they could take the extra half hour they'd do it easily. But I'm afraid they'll have to keep the champagne on ice overnight...

Getting a tad bit silly now. It's not so desperate it needs to be finished tonight and give Pakistan any kind of foothold

Fifty for Duckett

He's had a good tour. Justified his pick as a horse for this course. Be interesting to see how he goes in NZ.

And off we go : 55 to get tomorrow

Well on track to complete a 3-0 win not sure many saw coming. Pakistan have rather crumbled when they've had a chance to put serious pressure on England

Liquid Bazball-ing today - cannot wait to watch the highlights tonight and on the verge of a historic series whitewash

Another astonishing day for England.

I reckoned it would have been a good move to have played the young boy even if he hadn't done well. But to get a five-for....

Always helps to come into a winning team with a supportive captain, of course.

Karachi 2022 could become a pub quiz question. In which match did Joe Root take more wickets than score runs?

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Liquid Bazball-ing today - cannot wait to watch the highlights tonight and on the verge of a historic series whitewash

The way Crawley and Duckett attacked the chase followed by Ahmed and Stokes getting promoted seemingly just for s**** and giggles does feel like their approach practically taking a victory lap.

It will be really intriguing to see how England adjust their approach when faced by different conditions. Basically going into ODI mode when conditions suit is a really interesting route for a side with England's batting strengths and weaknesses. Those dud Dukes balls and these absolute roads have provided a run of very good conditions for it. How England approach batting when presented with different conditions and equally what conditions they may try to present at home will be fascinating, and maybe at times infuriating, to see develop.

For the time being though it was been a remarkable and as much as anything remarkably fun start to the Stokes and Baz reign. An 18-year-old leg spin bowling all-rounder with a beaming smile on his face definitely feels like the cherry on top of this very fun spell to be an England fan.

Given the need replace Dilly long term and Rehan's white ball skills I wouldn't be surprised if this fast tracks him into the ODI and T20i squads too.

Quiet start this morning , after all the crazy bat throwing (quite literally !) last night...just one boundary in the first three overs.

Don't think it will take long though : Stokes still needs one six to break the record so I'm sure he will be looking for an opportunity !

Touring England fans singing away ...not very tunefully but crowd is understandably sparse.

43 more needed.

Stokes unusually subdued today. Duckett rather hogging the strike anyway as they tick down these remaining runs... No big shots ; but Duckett has moved comfortably to 70 via several sweeps - regular and reverse. Fifty stand up from 63 balls.

Twenty to win...

Stokes tried to carry the long boundary then...fell a bit short and a tough catch spilled at long on...

Probably won't put him off now he has his eye in. Have to hurry if he wants that record breaking six today...only need twelve runs now.

Ha. They have basically "got 'em in singles" , these last few runs...but Duckett does end it with a sweetly cover driven four...finishes with 82 not out as England end their year with an eight wicket win.

Stokes looks happy. As well he might. The two Bens got the job done comfortably in under forty minutes today to wrap up a fine series win

Comprehensive victory in the end and has to go down as one of England's finest overseas series triumphs. It was built on the most impossible of wins in Rawalpindi, very very few teams in history could have forced victory and even fewer would have attempted it, those 506 runs in a day will live long in the memory.

Overall a year that has seen an upturn in fortunes but the 'fifth test' win over India stands above them all as the finest, at 109/3 they had no right to win that match as easily as they did. I've said it numerous times throughout the year but player of the year has to be James Anderson, he was the difference on so many occasions and shows no signs of slowing down.

Another sensational victory, and this absolutely comprehensive stuff - fantastic work by Brook with another century first innings, and that spell from Ahmed yesterday afternoon will live long in the memory, no matter what his career goes on to become.

If you'd told me after that shambolic West Indies tour coming off the back of the Ashes, that England would win 9 test matches over the next two years, I'd have snapped your hand off. If you'd told me they'd win 9 of the 10 remaining tests they had in 2022, I'd have called the local mental institute and had you taken away!

Incredible turnaround by Stokes/McCullum and the players - in particular this series will forever be remembered, winning more test matches in a month in Pakistan than we had in our 8 tours to the country beforehand (24 tests beforehand and only two wins!) is quite frankly incredible, and doing so with Joe Root only averaging 25 with the bat...just silly.

Don't think they're some sort of unstoppable, all conquering all time side all of a sudden - but they've given themselves, and us as fans something to believe in and be excited about going forward, which is a far cry from this time last year.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Another sensational victory, and this absolutely comprehensive stuff - fantastic work by Brook with another century first innings, and that spell from Ahmed yesterday afternoon will live long in the memory, no matter what his career goes on to become.

If you'd told me after that shambolic West Indies tour coming off the back of the Ashes, that England would win 9 test matches over the next two years, I'd have snapped your hand off. If you'd told me they'd win 9 of the 10 remaining tests they had in 2022, I'd have called the local mental institute and had you taken away!

Incredible turnaround by Stokes/McCullum and the players - in particular this series will forever be remembered, winning more test matches in a month in Pakistan than we had in our 8 tours to the country beforehand (24 tests beforehand and only two wins!) is quite frankly incredible, and doing so with Joe Root only averaging 25 with the bat...just silly.

Don't think they're some sort of unstoppable, all conquering all time side all of a sudden - but they've given themselves, and us as fans something to believe in and be excited about going forward, which is a far cry from this time last year.

And if w'd told you HOW they won those games, flailing opposing bowlers to all parts and with big runs from about 6 or 7 different batsmen, scoring usually at better than a run a ball (and that Stokes, and this series, Root, have not been big contributors). Also, that one game was effectively won by an 18 year old leggie on debut...

Not much to add to what others have said. There's a temptation to look forward/worry about The Ashes, but I say why not enjoy the results we've just had, these have all been important series in their own right with unprecedented levels of performance and some historic results

Incredible to say, but amazing wins are becoming commonplace for England.

What an incredible year for the team. Has there ever been such a turn around in form and attitude? Belief seems to run right through the team. There is no fear of failure.

I was probably one of quite a few who thought it wrong to land Stokes with the captaincy. But he has been inspiring and the players appear to want to run through a brick wall for him.

Much has been written over the years about team spirit. It's an even more important commodity in cricket where players are thrust together for hours on end and, on tours, for days on end.

England's team spirit is sky high at present. Of course, victories help cement team spirit and the big Test for morale will come when things are not going so well (during next summer, perhaps?)

Dealing with failure should be relatively easy for Stokes; this is after all a player who had to deal with the aftermath of Carlos Brathwaite and came out the other side with three defining performances in three different formats. For as good as Root is he didn't have a Headingley or world cup final moment to fall back on.

In the 'nice problems to have' category, what team do England put out going forward?
Next few months they have:
3 ODIs in South Africa (why?) - Development team,?
2 Tests in NZ
1 Test v Ireland
5 home Ashes tests
T20 and ODI series v NZ then some ODIs v Ireland at the end of summer

Test Team questions:
Where does Bairstow fit back into the line-up? Do we end up with either YJB or Pope with the gloves (hope not, as Foakes is a competent bat and excellent keeper)
Will Duckett and Crawley establish themselves as an opening pair?
Ahmed or Leach?
Is there a way back into the squad / team for Broad, and how long will Anderson be able to keep going*?
Archer, Stone, Potts all there or thereabouts if fit.

* Stanley Matthews autobiography has a quote from Jimmy Nichol, who was in his mid 30s, to Stanley who was in his early 40s, saying that it was their last chance to win something together, because while Stanley till had years left, Jimmy was on the verge of retiring. Currently lloks like Jimmy is going for the Stanley Matthews side of it.

In line with the posts above, a truly incredible series win with many good to excellent individual contributions.* 

As for the 'nice problems to have', I'll leave any answers until nearer the events. As we've just witnessed, an awful lot can surprisingly happen in a short time to change things.

*Olly - if the Christmas build up and everything else allows, I would love a 'marks out of ten' post for England's players on this tour. Despite what he sometimes says, I know Alfie would too!

There'll definitely be shades of Spinal Tap when Rehan Ahmed is awarded his 11/10 rating

VTR wrote:There'll definitely be shades of Spinal Tap when Rehan Ahmed is awarded his 11/10 rating

It's Olly's party and he can mark 11 if he wants to! 

dummy_half wrote:In the 'nice problems to have' category, what team do England put out going forward?
Next few months they have:
3 ODIs in South Africa (why?) - Development team,?
2 Tests  in NZ
1 Test v Ireland
5 home Ashes tests
T20 and ODI series v NZ then some ODIs v Ireland at the end of summer

Test Team questions:
Where does Bairstow fit back into the line-up? Do we end up with either YJB or Pope with the gloves (hope not, as Foakes is a competent bat and excellent keeper)
Will Duckett and Crawley establish themselves as an opening pair?
Ahmed or Leach?
Is there a way back into the squad / team for Broad, and how long will Anderson be able to keep going*?
Archer, Stone, Potts all there or thereabouts if fit.

* Stanley Matthews autobiography has a quote from Jimmy Nichol, who was in his mid 30s, to Stanley who was in his early 40s, saying that it was their last chance to win something together, because while Stanley till had years left, Jimmy was on the verge of retiring. Currently lloks like Jimmy is going for the Stanley Matthews side of it.

Anderson and Broad dropped by Strauss for the WI tour but brought back by Stokes
8 Tests 35 wickets at 17.85 JA
7 Tests 29 wickets at 27.17 SB

Guessing that the six fast bowlers going to NZ - Anderson, Broad, Robinson, Archer, Wood, Stokes.

In the light of England's spectacular turnaround under Baz/Stokes, perhaps it's worth considering other dramatic changes of fortune for Test cricket sides.

Going back a bit, Richie Benaud took over a young Australian side that had lost three Ashes series in a row and inspired them to trounce an, on paper, immensely strong England side in 1958-59.

A couple of years later, the rejuvenated Aussies took part in an epic series with the Windies who, in turn, had been transformed by Frank Worrell.

Sometimes there have been incredible reverses of fortune in a single series, as in 1981 when the return of Mike Brearley as captain galvanised Botham into match-winning Ashes form.

Mention could also be made of Ranatunga who helped Sri Lanka become a major player on the international stage.

Going even further back, there was the case of Percy Chapman who enjoyed tremendous success after replacing Arthur Carr as England captain for the crucial Ashes match at The Oval in 1926.

I've no doubt failed to recall other great reincarnations. Perhaps others could come up with instances.

Nasser Hussain took an England side that had slumped to the bottom of the Test rankings to home wins over West Indies and away wins in Sri Lanka and Pakistan within 18 months. Beating the Windies at home was a big deal at the time, not the walkover it is now!

VTR - Yes, Nasser paved the way for first Vaughan and then Strauss to invigorate England to such an extent that they became world number one.

Remember they were booed off at The Oval against NZ in 1999. Of course, central contracts helped the team's development. The strike force was Caddick and Gough. Caddick just loved bowling but Gough needed rests and got them by not having to flog himself for Yorkshire.

guildfordbat wrote:In line with the posts above, a truly incredible series win with many good to excellent individual contributions.* 

As for the 'nice problems to have', I'll leave any answers until nearer the events. As we've just witnessed, an awful lot can surprisingly happen in a short time to change things.

*Olly - if the Christmas build up and everything else allows, I would love a 'marks out of ten' post for England's players on this tour. Despite what he sometimes says, I know Alfie would too!

You ask, I checked the naughty/nice list, and it turns out you're ok - so you shall receive!

England players:
Zak Crawley - 235 runs at 39.16 - 6/10 - a quintessentially Crawley series I think. Flashed some real promise with his century, and had some starts, but didn't really consistently "cash in" as he could have done to boost that average big time.

Ben Duckett - 357 runs at 71.40 - 9/10 - just a superb return to the side for him, consistent runs and a lot of them! If I was being super harsh, could have maybe converted another fifty to a hundred, but just great work from him on return and has more than earned a go in other conditions.

Ollie Pope - 238 runs at 47.60 - 8/10 - another solid series for Pope, who does seem to be thriving in his new position at number 3. Very good work behind the stumps in emergency for Foakes for the 1st test and then as the keeper for the 2nd test (did you know he forgot to bring his gloves for this tour, so had to borrow some ).

Joe Root - 125 runs at 25, 5 wickets at 39.2 - 6/10 - score is bumped up a point or two by his bowling contribution, which was pretty valuable actually. All those stinking wickets he's scored hundreds on, all the times he's been the only one scoring runs...he turns up to some roads and barely (by his standards) gets a run. Typical

Harry Brook - 468 runs at 93.60 - 10/10 - what more can you say? One of the all time great England bats overseas series, and from someone on his first overseas tour! Looks an incredible talent, and hopefully a mainstay of the XI for many years to come.

Ben Stokes - 173 runs at 34.60, 1 wicket at 124 - 8/10 - kind of a weird one this, not really many runs and I don't think his bowling figures reflect how well he actually bowled...but he gets the high mark due to his captaincy mainly. Just exceptional work, and has really begun to build a special team, really impressed with how he handled his bowlers in this series.

Will Jacks - 6 wickets at 38.66, 89 runs at 22.25 - 6/10 - I think it was fairly clear his bowling, despite the six wickets in that first test, is a way off international standard at this point. Batting is a bit of a N/A because he was in with the instructions to slog it mostly. Wouldn't be shocked if this is the only time we see him in the whites of England (get him in the ODI/T20 teams!)

Liam Livingstone - N/A - can't really give a grade considering he got hurt early in the 1st test, massive shame for him. Again, wouldn't be shocked if that is his only test match

Ben Foakes - 64 runs at 64 - 7/10 - solid contribution with the bat and behind the stumps in his one game, unlucky to fall foul to the injury bug for the 1st test. Not much else to say!

Rehan Ahmed - 7 wickets at 19.57 - 8/10 - a debut beyond even mine and JDizzle's wildest dreams! Really shown a lot of potential, and that googly is a real weapon to the lefties. Obviously a long way to go as a cricketer, but looks like we might have an incredible talent on our hands (hope we nurture him better than we did Rashid after he initially broke into the one day setup...)

Mark Wood - 8 wickets at 20.37 - 9/10 - superb! This is the exact sort of tour England have been talking about having a bowler of his ilk for, for a while, and he delivered. Incredible spell to setup that 2nd test victory in the 2nd innings, and bowled with great pace and determination. Pray his body holds up for as long as possible! (also a few handy runs with the bat)

Ollie Robinson - 9 wickets at 21.22 - 9/10 - just a sensational and relentless bowler, so glad he was able to go away and sort his fitness issues. That spell at the end of the first test to remove the set bats was one that will live long in the memory. Can't wait to watch him play more over the coming years.

James Anderson - 8 wickets at 18.50 - 9/10 - what more can you write about this bloke that hasn't been already? Lets just hope that body can keep going for as long as possible, because watching him bowl is a genuine privilege.

Jack Leach - 15 wickets at 44.60 - 6/10 - to be honest I thought overall Leach bowled pretty poorly on this tour, despite him taking the most wickets in the series for England. Didn't have the level of control that I thought he would, despite Pakistan not really "targeting" him. Did ok.

Overall thoughts: Obviously this series is going to live long in the memory of England fans, just some incredible cricket played and the wins in Pindi and Multan will go into the annuls of time with the great overseas test wins. I do hope it isn't forgotten over time just how good the England seamers were on this tour, Anderson/Robinson/Wood really were utterly superb on absolutely dead tracks, to have the averages and economy rates they did was crucial to victory I think

Great stuff, not going to argue with any of that. From the Pakistan side, I have heard a couple of things which I find interesting. First is that Babar said they dominated the Tests. I suspect this could be a misquote somewhere, perhaps meant to be more like "competed" or "dominated periods of"

The other I don't think is misquoted and is a poor excuse of having inexperienced players. That when you've just been bowled out by an 18 year old leggie, and the man of the series was playing his 2nd, 3rd and 4th Tests. I get that Pakistan are rebuilding, but they did not exactly lose to the 2003 Australian team in terms of experience

Olly - that's an excellent present! Many thanks.

Going out now but back tonight with a couple of comments although nothing significant. Very much with the general tone and individual ratings. 

Guess it will have to be Root who makes way for Bairstow!

guildfordbat wrote:Olly - that's an excellent present! Many thanks.

Going out now but back tonight with a couple of comments although nothing significant. Very much with the general tone and individual ratings. 

Yep, excellent as said. 

I was a tad surprised you held yourself back and limited Rehan to an 8. All in all though, you probably got the score right - it didn't impact the match but Rehan's batting did him no favours. I appreciate he's primarily a bowler (and one with sizeable potential) but if he and others have genuine ambitions for him to bat at 8, he'll need to be more savvy with the willow going forward.

The only player for whom I would have tweaked your score is Leach. Follow your thinking and comments but would have narrowly upped him to a 7 for being our leading wicket taker in the series by no small margin.

7 for Foakes seems fair. 'Solid' as you say in his only Test but, much as I admire his contribtions for Surrey, I struggle to get sold on him for England. He seems to have insufficient command of the review system which is now so vital at Test level. Also, whilst a steadying influence with the bat, he lacks the power to get out of third gear.

Particularly pleased you gave Wood a 9. I sung his praises on the final day of T3. In addition, he made handy runs (35 and 36 not out) in two of his three knocks. A much improved important player. Although I accept there needs to be a sensible balance, I want him playing Tests as much as possible rather than staying wrapped in cotton wool.

I guess you were pretty happy with the team then Olly ! But the generous marks are probably pretty well deserved as they really did a great job.

I would maybe give Crawley a bit more credit . You summed it up well as a "quintessentially Crawley series " ; but although he didn't fatten his average , I thought his initial century on day one was the innings that actually set the tone for the series - and is perhaps deserving of more attention than it has received , somewhat submerged by the weight of runs from those who followed. Did a similar if somewhat shorter-lived job in the second innings in Rawalpindi too. Didn't really do anything later except for basically settling any concerns about the last innings chase in Karachi within a few balls ; but I think he did pretty much what Baz and Ben wanted as an opener.

I don't really "do" numbers ; but I'd think something less than Duckett but more than Root and Jacks would be fairer ?

As to the excuses being put forward for Pakistan - and I suppose reservations about what this triumph means for England :

1/ I agree very much with VTR about enjoying it for what it is and worry about the future later ! Before and after are another matter : this is a terrific achievement.

2/  Babar is I suppose trying to put the best possible face on a very disappointing result for his lads. Think the "dominated" quote did indeed refer to occasional passages of play. The comments about having to rely on inexperienced players may have some merit (they certainly missed Afridi , for example) - except that Abrar and Shakeel were two of their best performers so more a reflection on their selection choices , I'd have thought. Some claims of ill fortune over that controversial catch in Multan are understandable ; but I would suggest shouldn't be overdone : the decision was debateable  ; but not obviously wrong - at least in my opinion ; and the way England were pressing in the latter stages of that match it may not have made any difference to the end result.

If anyone was "dominating" these matches , it wasn't the home team  

3/ You'd think victories at home over NZ , India and SA , coupled with this , would have most people reasonably optimistic about the immediate future. Team certainly looks to be happy , confident , and apparently quite adaptable ; and with this series win achieved without the services of Bairstow and Broad as well as other very potentially useful players likely to be available in the near future , strength in depth seems to have been another box ticked.
Does this make them hot favourites for a home Ashes or a trip to India ? Reckon it is more accurate to say it means they have a much better chance than looked likely just nine months ago...

4/ Crystal ball ? :  Ashes will be tough as Australia have , most notably , the bowling attack that will put England's aggressive batting under its most severe test yet. Have to wait and see how that works out. But the home side has an excellent record in recent contests even when not doing as well as Stokes and co in 2022 ; so I see no reason to believe they cannot hope to prevail - as long as they get selection right and don't lose key players to injury.
The Indian tour is another thing and I would be reluctant to even try and speculate at this point. But recent events and emergence of some exciting new players have to be positive signs even for this.

Exciting times ahead , no ?

Afternoon all

I nearly entirely agree with Ollie's marks, except that like alfie I'd probably bump Crawley up a little. In fact, since I do "do numbers" I'd go with a 7. Agree with alfie that his first-innings knock in T1 really set the tone for that entire Test, and I actually think his little cameo in the final chase was important. While Bazball England have been merrily chasing any target thrown their way, there was always a possibility that a few early wickets cause panic to set in. Once Crawley got out, the game was essentially won, so a valuable innings IMO.

Otherwise, no quibbles at all. I agree with guildford's comments on the pace bowlers. In fact I would argue that this was the main difference between the two sides, coupled with harder-to-gauge but equally important Stokes/Baz factor. England's capacity to turn to the seamers to completely dry up the runs and create threats was vital throughout. Stokes's plans were excellent, but it takes quality bowling to implement them accurately, and England's pace bowlers were superb throughout. 9's all around fully deserved

On previous topic, Stokes's captaincy was just superb. Obviously the intent to always look for the win etc., but I thought his tactical astuteness was a revelation. Perhaps because previous attempts to hand the captaincy to talisman allrounders have typically ended in disaster (Botham, Flintoff), I was a bit concerned when he was appointed, but he's been magnificent so far.

More than anything, this England side have made Test cricket fun again, and long may it continue!

England ODI Squad to South Africa

Buttler, Ali, Roy, Salt, Duckett, Malan, Brook, S Curran, Willey, Woakes, Archer, Rashid, Stone Topley