England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

First topic message reminder :

Hate to say it and I don't wish him injured but I'm glad Ewels not available!
If you're disappointed with Malins and Daly being selected, imagine how most of us feel about Youngs being there.
In fairness, Malins and Daly been superb this season but please give Radwan and Arundell a run.

Rugby Fan wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Great. I don't know what will be worse - losing and seeing nothing come of this autumn or somehow winning this match against what I assume is going to be a bloody knackered boks side, and seeing nothing come of this autumn. Either way i'm already not looking forward to another 6N's of losses and Poopie games.

This captures the feeling well. I've haven't learned anything about England as a team for a while. For most other top international sides, it's possible to discern how they are developing. For instance, South Africa have lost a few games and yet they are coming together in other areas. The All Blacks are starting to click ominously too. France and Ireland might have just squeaked a couple of results but the general philosophy is clear and the are looking to expand their player pool.

With England, on the back of the last couple of years, I don't know who our best scrummaging pack is; our best lock combination; our best back row; our best half-back combination; our best midfield; or our best back three.

It's not even clear who Jones would select, if everyone was available. Is it Lawes, Curry and Vunipola in the back row? They've only started a couple of Tests together as a trio, so how would we know? Smith, Farrell and Tuilagi in the midfield? Possibly. Again, they've barely played together. Is any winger guaranteed a start alongside Steward?

As a result of this uncertainty, if we do win, as we managed twice in Australia, it doesn't seem to settle any selection issue.

These are all related though. France and Ireland have had consistency of selection over the last couple of years. England are going from series to series having to pick different combinations because of injury. Arundell and Chessum broke through more or less in the summer - now injured. Dombrandt first choice in the six nations - injured. They would have replaced or been replacements for other established stars like Lawes, Underhill and Watson but they cant get a run in the team either.

This is what killed Lancaster in the end too - all the injuries. England under Jones best time was when he was picking 12 or 13 of the same team every game - 2016 / 17 and 2019/ 2020 before Covid. Now he is getting to pick 9 or 10. It makes a big difference.

king_carlos wrote:Interesting question re Willis given the Toulouse move is whether he's available? The Prem players are available outside the international window but players outside the Prem presumably won't be the same as the Boks not having access to their Premiership based players for this game.

The "extraordinary circumstances" rule allows a player to be selected but that doesn't mean they're released for camps and matches outside international windows.

I would guess that's not a factor, but it is a bit of a guess. Telegraph report on the move states that it kicks in after the AI matches for England. He was also involved in the squad up to yesterday which falls outside the window.

England/Jones have not released aby detail.

Regardless of the injuries his selections are puzzling at best at times.

Im actually really looking forward to Jones moving on and a new coach coming in who will just look for a system and back up plan and play the best and in form players in their right positions...and actually look like they have a clear direction of where they want to go.

Im actually really looking forward to Jones moving on and a new coach coming in who will just look for a system and back up plan and play the best and in form players in their right positions...and actually look like they have a clear direction of where they want to go.

Yep I've now reached that stage. I used to always support Jones despite odd team selections and his stupid comments but now lost all faith and just waiting for post RWC2023.

Ruck saying they have a leaked team.

M. Vunipola starting
Ribbans dropped, Coles and Hill to start
Itoje at 6
JvP to start
Nowell starting

I just hope that they are trying to scare people into looking at their site because that is a 60 point loss type side.

Yeah i hope thats not legit.

Surely click bait?

I reckon he will go for

Genge George Sinckler
Ribbans Hill
Itoje Curry
Vunipola
vP Smith
May Farrell Tuilagi Freeman
Steward

Wouldn't be surprised to see a mix up on the front row though given the interchangeable nature of SA.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Ruck saying they have a leaked team.

M. Vunipola starting
Ribbans dropped, Coles and Hill to start
Itoje at 6
JvP to start
Nowell starting

I just hope that they are trying to scare  people into looking at their site because that is a 60 point loss type side.

That would be nightmare but then again ruck.co.uk is not really a rugby site...

I wouldn't mind seeing Stuart start - he must be pretty confident after last week and Sinckler just isn't the same anymore. George over LCD every day for me.

Go 6/2 with one of the locks at 6 and Simmonds as replacement extra forward on the bench? That would mean two out of Nowell, Tuilagi or Freeman not playing and I hope its the first two.

Genge, George, Stuart, Itoje, Hill, Coles, Curry, Vunipola, JVP, Smith, Freeman, Farrell, Slade, May, Steward

M Vunipola, LCD, Sinckler, Tizard, Ribbans, Simmonds, Youngs, Porter

1.Genge 2.George 3.Sinckler 4.Itoje 5.Ribbans 6.Coles 7.Curry 8.Vunipola
9.JvP 10.Farrell 11.May 12.Tuilagi 13.Slade 14.Freeman 15.Steward

16.LCD 17.Mako 18.Stuart 19.Tizard 20.Simmonds 21.Youngs 22.Smith 23.Porter

I think I'd veer away from the Smith-Farrell axis towards a makeup more like that but I don't see it happening.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Ruck saying they have a leaked team.

M. Vunipola starting
Ribbans dropped, Coles and Hill to start
Itoje at 6
JvP to start
Nowell starting

I just hope that they are trying to scare  people into looking at their site because that is a 60 point loss type side.

Those are good selections if:
(a) you hit your head getting out of bed this morning
(b) you are daring your bosses to fire you
(c) you like pishing off England supporters

king_carlos wrote:
I think I'd veer away from the Smith-Farrell axis towards a makeup more like that but I don't see it happening.

Be a surprise to drop Smith after one of his best performances in an England shirt especially when it seemed that he and Farrell were finally getting the attack firing. There were a lot of mess ups that weren't their fault with England not really becoming clinical to later in the game which was more down to changes in the forwards than it was the backs division. Eddie wanted that 10/12 combination for his attacking structure and it finally looked like it might be coming together as the game went on last weekend.

From what I can see, Eddie is trying to do something a bit unconventional with Smith and Farrell. Smith seems to spend a lot of time playing at second or even third receiver, and does a lot of running behind the primary backline - in a position to support but not to receive. Russell does something similar on occasion, but I don’t think he does it to the same degree.
I think what they’re trying to do is to execute Eddie’s unstructured attack by basically having Smith tell the team what to do in real time, freed of the more basic flyhalf responsibilities because Farrell can do them. It feels like it’s taken a lot of time to take root, but it will be interesting to see if they can sustain what we saw at the end of the NZ game into a game with very different (but perhaps more easily manipulated) opposition.

Gatland think Smith started clicking once he took over kicking duties from Farrell. He wonders whether Smith has found it hard to get into his rhythm when he isn't doing all the jobs he has at Quins.

Gatland suggests letting Farrell kick for goal, and having Smith kick for touch and kicking to restart.

While there might be something in that, Smith had a few games when Farrell was injured, and it didn't seem to make much difference to his early performances

[Edit]

Just heard Joe Simpson speaking on the Offload podcast. Simpson claims players and coaches are kept highly stressed during England camps, and don't even get proper sleep. It's common knowledge Jones wears people out but it seemed like he'd taken a different tack of late. When he does eventually leave, it'll be interesting to see what the post mortem reveals about how he conducted himself.

Carried over to: https://www.606v2.com/t70903-england-post-2022-6ns-aus-tour-and-beyond#4066083