Scotland's 6N Build Up, Then Inevitable Fall: Dark Horses of the Year 10 years running

First topic message reminder :

It's the hope that kills ya!

lostinwales wrote:Well done Scotland. Very close game won on fine margins.

I hate rugby...

England were definitely unlucky with some of the key decisions. You'll bounce back next week!

Great game, great rugby played by both sides.

I love rugby

Oh no we didn't.

At the death I thought it would be gallant lovers time again.
However Mbawza did what he does so well.
Detailed, objective analysis tomorrow: Isle Of Jura single malt right now.

How’s the BP jimbo?

What a cracking performance!! One of the great Scotland wins!!

Thought the team, to a man, were outstanding. A couple of stand outs (Ben White was terrific and that large Edinburgh winger had a moment or two), but it was the collective that won that. Apparently Fagerson made 27 tackles. 27!!

I may possibly watch that again this evening....

tiger, fes I don't care if you're Luvvies...we are brothers in anguish, disappointment, broken dreams and the soul sapping regret that goes with being a Scotland rugby fan.
Tonight we feast in the Elysium fields.
Enjoy it while it lasts.

So long as we nest the Welsh next week.

Gotta won at home.

Then we can look to France

jimbopip wrote:tiger, fes I don't care if you're Luvvies...we are brothers in anguish, disappointment, broken dreams and the soul sapping regret that goes with being a Scotland rugby fan.
Tonight we feast in the Elysium fields.
Enjoy it while it lasts.

Feasting on the bodies of your vanquished foes?  With some fava beans and a nice Chianti?
Ahh, just like the old days.

Single malt!
Rope a Dope rugby style.  Dontcha just love Toonie?

jimbopip wrote:Single malt!
Rope a Dope rugby style.  Dontcha just love Toonie?

Yeeeeeees!

RDW wrote:Yeeeeeees!

Morning flounder

Watching the game now! Huge amount of kicking early on which England very much had the upper hand with.

Rope a dope stuff from Scotland to get their chance then take it.

A theme common throughout the game I gather!

What a win! A win built off defence, organisation, real determination and pretty much taking every chance we had. The forwards really stood up and the backs did well too, with all the key selection decisions proving correct.

Saying that, we didn't actually play well in a lot of facets of play! We were completely outplayed in the kicking contest - in fact you couldn't even describe it as a contest. Finn's kicking was wayward most of the time and got us in a lot of trouble which we scrambled to get ourselves out of. In fact, Finn really didn't have a good game. We also made quite a few basic errors and poor choices - mainly from Finn TBF

So a great win and shouldn't complain about winning at Twickenham, but still plenty to improve upon. We can't rely on a Duhan wonder try and lucky break from White to get us out if a fix.

Well I thought that was a cracking game of rugby. OK there were errors and plenty to improve on, but that will always be the case.

Bold selection by Toonie, and you would have to say it paid off in terms of the big calls. In the centres, Huwpulotu looks like it can work at international level as well as club. Really impressed with Tuipulotu in particular, who's developing a really strong all-round game. At SH White had a really solid game. Crosbie perhaps not as visible, but managed 20 tackles in the 60-odd minutes he was on, so put in a lot of the quiet work. Decision to be made there next week, with Watson presumably more into the reckoning. VDM I think is just one of those players who doesn't need (m)any minutes to be match sharp.

Negative-wise, Hoggy didn't have a good game. Might be rustiness of course, but didn't really do much and that pass to Steyn was a shocker. Also felt at times we struggled to match the physicality of England's direct approach, giving up meters a bit easily, although scrambling was good. Russell had a bit of a mixed bag. England clearly targeted him and tried to really put pressure on him, and his kicking game was a bit loose. But I think sometimes it's under-estimated just how good his passing game is, in terms of speed and length. It means we can get the ball wide in double-quick time and expose the defence if it gets a bit narrow. The last try was a good example of this: Russell's pass to Steyn obviously started the move, but he also delivers a flat, fast, pass to Fraser Brown when they swing to the other side, which makes sure England can't scramble and recover. Sure, other players can do that, but Russell is one of the best at doing it consistently.

Looking ahead to Wales, Zander should come in if fit. Nel did ok, but he's definitely getting on a bit, and was struggling defensively at times (particularly in the longer passages of play). Does Watson come in also, and if so, for whom? Would be harsh to drop Crosbie, but I'm not sure you need him, Richie, and Watson in the same 23. Dempsey is a better bench option for a starting back-row of Richie Crosbie/Mish Fagerson. Of course you could potentially go 6-2 split and have both. Then you would need to decide if Hogg's poor performance was mainly rustiness, or if it would better to bring in Kinghorn or Smith instead (Kinghorn starting at FB definitely brings the 6-2 bench Horne-Harris into consideration IMO).

I would expect a backlash from Wales. Their first 30 minutes was utterly dreadful, but they looked a bit better after that, albeit butchered a few decent positions. Their line-out particularly struggled once Tipuric came off. It did feel like Ireland largely coasted between minutes 30 and 70, but I would still expect Wales to put up a better fight next week.

Aye if anything Wales getting humped makes me more nervous. There'll be a major backlashes, plus there's still a very good team in there. And no-one in world rugby knows how to beat Scotland more than Gatland!

I think to say Finn didn't have a good game is a bit harsh! He wasn't putting in flashy kicks and he made a couple that were just slightly overcooked but I think on the whole he did alright. Having tuipulotus footballing skills at centre takes the spotlight off of him which is definitely no bad thing, much like Redpath did against England a few years back. This also means he doesn't look as good but I'd have said that was as solid a performance from Finn as any and I'd actually rather that than Jekyll/Hyde Finn.

I have to say Richie Gray had an absolutely immense game and MF would have been a MoM contender for me.

However don't back this up against Wales and we're back in the same hole. I think a bit of squad rotation wouldn't hurt, especially against a probably galvanised Welsh side who have so often been our boogeymen at home. Win there then who knows, if we run France close, keep Italy out and get the Irish monkey off of our backs we could be in competition to win something for once!

I guess my Finn comment was mainly about his kicking which was really aimless and contributed to England having so much success there. He had a bad kick out on the full. Also a few speculative offloads that went straight to England. That was a bad conversion miss too from within the 15m which should be a banker for an international kicker.

On the plus side his passing was outstanding as always and he's a really strong defender now. He was actually one of our top carriers which I'm not sure is a good thing or not - either he doesn't have a runner to give it to, or he's just confident attacking the line.

Btw I don't think enough is being said of how good that first try was - it was an outstanding set piece play that kept England guessing all the way up to the try being scored. Need more of that!

RDW wrote:I guess my Finn comment was mainly about his kicking which was really aimless and contributed to England having so much success there. He had a bad kick out on the full. Also a few speculative offloads that went straight to England. That was a bad conversion miss too from within the 15m which should be a banker for an international kicker.

On the plus side his passing was outstanding as always and he's a really strong defender now. He was actually one of our top carriers which I'm not sure is a good thing or not - either he doesn't have a runner to give it to, or he's just confident attacking the line.

Btw I don't think enough is being said of how good that first try was - it was an outstanding set piece play that kept England guessing all the way up to the try being scored. Need more of that!

Definitely agree RE conversions/pens, we were lucky Farrell's kicking was even worse or we could have been on the wrong side of that result. That said, Finn made up for it with that pressure conversion to take us 6 points ahead, I think psychologically that would have made things harder for England in the last 5 and forced them to go for broke.

I also think for all their errors, England had our kicking game well covered so credit where it's due, they'd done their homework.

I have to say that first try had me out of my seat. Really was a brilliant play.

RDW wrote:I guess my Finn comment was mainly about his kicking which was really aimless and contributed to England having so much success there. He had a bad kick out on the full. Also a few speculative offloads that went straight to England. That was a bad conversion miss too from within the 15m which should be a banker for an international kicker.

On the plus side his passing was outstanding as always and he's a really strong defender now. He was actually one of our top carriers which I'm not sure is a good thing or not - either he doesn't have a runner to give it to, or he's just confident attacking the line.

Btw I don't think enough is being said of how good that first try was - it was an outstanding set piece play that kept England guessing all the way up to the try being scored. Need more of that!

Just a second. Are you saying that the mighty G Dog Morrison could not have put that grubber in?

George Carlin wrote:

RDW wrote:I guess my Finn comment was mainly about his kicking which was really aimless and contributed to England having so much success there. He had a bad kick out on the full. Also a few speculative offloads that went straight to England. That was a bad conversion miss too from within the 15m which should be a banker for an international kicker.

On the plus side his passing was outstanding as always and he's a really strong defender now. He was actually one of our top carriers which I'm not sure is a good thing or not - either he doesn't have a runner to give it to, or he's just confident attacking the line.

Btw I don't think enough is being said of how good that first try was - it was an outstanding set piece play that kept England guessing all the way up to the try being scored. Need more of that!

Just a second. Are you saying that the mighty G Dog Morrison could not have put that grubber in?

I saw a Facebook comment saying we had the greatest centres since "the mighty Sean Lamont". I'm not sure it was even said in irony either!

Finn did not have his best game for sure - that makes the win all the better if we can win when not at 100%. England went after Russell and he did not panic but he did make some errors

Tactics were interesting - we did very little pick and goes or one out runners - everything went wide

RDW wrote:Btw I don't think enough is being said of how good that first try was - it was an outstanding set piece play that kept England guessing all the way up to the try being scored. Need more of that!

Agreed, but it was the 4th try that pleased me the most. Under pressure and behind in the game, after England had looked to close things out, the way Scotland were accurate and played wide, with Russell at the heart of it, was so pleasing. We've traditionally not finished those off, and it showcased the very best of this side (and some great hands from Gray under pressure given he'd played a pretty full on game up to that). Lovely stuff.

Just when you thought Duhan's try couldn't get any better....

https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/10ttbsx/farrell_no_attempt_to_tackle_resulting_in_duhans/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Finn

He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy.

The Netflix documentary is definitely going to have an interesting start anyway!

Apparently Scotland have basically given them fill access - the Irish and Welsh less enthusiastic to have the cameras following everything.

Finding myself in the slightly awkward position of agreeing with the Festering one; it's like speed dating and you see La Trussilina sitting opposite you and you want the buzzer to go but then you notice it's Suella Boatwoman next.

Anyhoo, that fourth try.... All our backs, except that lazy sod DVDM, overload the right hand side,England rush en masse to deal with the threat, Finn takes out half their team with one pass, three fat boys in wide open spaces put the ball through the hands with maximum speed and accuracy under massive pressure and then the man of the moment scores in the corner. Chuckles, Turner and Big Richie were sublime. If Marcus Smith had played Richie's pass the English press would be drooling over it for weeks.

RDW wrote:The Netflix documentary is definitely going to have an interesting start anyway!

Apparently Scotland have basically given them fill access - the Irish and Welsh less enthusiastic to have the cameras following everything.

Turns out after decades of false dawns all the players needed was the promise of Netflix fame.

The SRU have really upped their content this six nations as well. Quite impressed actually.

You guys just don’t get it eh

All the madness in the last eight years. All the carnage and headless chicken carry on. It was all Toonie mind games to make everyone think we’re a box of frogs.

The mast plan is now taking shape where we brush all aside in the 6ns, the auld enemy, those pesky gatland Welsh who we can’t beat, the tournament holders and many people’s pick to win the world
Cup and the No 1 ranked team in the world.

We brush them all aside, build up a head of steam and then roll through the word up of the crest of a wave.

Boom

Too much?

Dan parks will come in as kicking coach-come-supersub and kick the winning penalty in the RWC final against Ireland in a masterclass and schooling of Sexton in true flyhalfery.

Boys, boys
I hate to get ahead of the curve, but....

Our remaining fixtures;

Wales (H) when did we last beat them? Gatland has the voodoo sign on Toonie. This is a very loseable match.
France (A) probably the best team in the world just now. If we play 70% of the game in our half and give them 60% of possession we will be right royally Friar Tucked.
Ireland the #1 team in he world and we do less well against them than we do against Wales.
Italy (H) the Azzuri are now a team who look like getting a result against one side every 6 Nations, and coming close on at least one other occasion. Last season it was Wales in Cardiff. When did we last do that?

So, we need at least two more wins before yesterday, marvellous though it was, means anything in the grand scheme of things.

Mind you, Wales are there for the taking.

Nah that's it now Jimbo, we're world-beaters full of world class players. Gatland's cursing in the coaching box at the millennium wasn't because of Ireland battering them, it was because he knew his next game was Scotland, a team who regularly scare Wales. We may even lose by 1 point this time!

Think wales are a spent force. Gats or no gats

France, today, don’t look as mighty as they were last year

Italy will be a limping team come the end of the tournament

But Ireland have our number.

I clearly jest and hype up the hype train which is what the casual fan does whenever we beat engurlund. It would be thoroughly Scottish if we beat wales, then beat France and run Ireland close and end up finishing like a point off top spot in the 6nations. The casual fans will then think we’re gonna get to the World Cup final and we’ll get utterly spanked by Ireland and SA and be home before the kippers have been cooked for breakfast

Well! I think the Azzurri were very unlucky today. Their mindset seems to be " If we're losing then at least let's go down with all guns blazing. "
Wales must be having the heebie jeebies at the prospect of facing them.

Don't know about Wales, but I'm worried that next week may be when they finally beat England

Can’t say I was overly impressed by France.

3 of their tries were not from phase play but a charge down and down kicks (one was a very lucky bounce of the ball too)

It’s early days yet. Think the Ireland vs France game next week will really tell us where teams are headed this year

France looked rusty as hell. They're still a dervish at home though.

I have absolutely no idea what sort of challenge this Welsh team will pose. They've very down but have got used to betting the mortgage on beating the Jocks every single year. Surely to god we cannot lose to them again?

By the way, I read that until next week presumably, we're 5th in the word rankings at the moment.

Wow 5th?! That is pretty high for Scotland.

Yes i agree about Wales, it's impossible to know how it'll go against them. They just seem to beat us time and again. Last years poor showing and the previous year when being quite a few points ahead. I just hope Scotland do as they did for England and focus on themselves. Getting sucked into the Welsh way of playing will only end in a lot of loose play and general chaos.

I didn't realise but Biggar threw the intercept against Ireland yesterday. The amount of times you read about how FH's like Russell throw loose passes and safe tens do not. That is one of the biggest myths in rugby if you ask me. Lowe picked that pass off because he could read the play. Just as Scott did vs AB's in 2012 and Russell vs England in 2019. I would argue that "maverick" tens probably throw less intercept passes than coached fly halves who are following a script. Saying that, Biggar was pretty poor for his standards yesterday, I'd expect a response from him.

Intercepts are more common when A: the fly half is up in the line and not sitting deep and B: when the defensive line come up quick

It’s not a maverick bs coached or quick passer vs slow or the like. It’s simply the fly half being too high trying to put someone through a gap and the defence managing to come through the line to pinch it.

Simply the reward of looking for a gap vs the risk of being caught out. The only way the 10 can influence things is to not give the pass at the last split second of they see the defence is near the line. Easier said than done

https://twitter.com/glovebox93/status/1622678085408591893

No hype train this year, but our old friend Graham is still at it out there in the twittersphere!

BigGee wrote:https://twitter.com/glovebox93/status/1622678085408591893

No hype train this year, but our old friend Graham is still at it out there in the twittersphere!

Have to admit, this is funny....

I've watched the England match half a dozen times now.  Magical tho Duhans first try is its an individual effort.  I think his second try is actually much better as it shows where Scotland are as a team now.  Scotland had caught a kick way back in their 22.  Almost every team on the planet would set up a pressure relieving kick from there ( exit strategy)  Scotland however look to attack first every time they get the ball no matter where.  Now if the attack is not on ie after two passes there is no space or a couple of rucks and get nowhere they will kick but Scotland moved the ball from wide on the left to wide on the right, Steyn made good yards.  Quick recycle and back to the left wing and in for the score.  They went side to side twice and gained 80+ m to score.  there was no luck in that - it was just good attack from deep and playing too fast for England.

That is exactly why I like this Scotland team and sometimes accept defeats like the Argentina series @TJ. As much as it's not nice losing, the manner in which they lose can have a bearing on my feelings afterwards. I would prefer to see an attacking mindset from the players rather than kick, kick, kick all the time, kicking to clear their lines is acceptable but I still prefer them to attack from their own half too.

I even shout at the t.v.during Rugby Championship, URC, Super Rugby etc "what are you kicking for" much to my families amusement lol, I'd make a good head coach lol.

Brian O Driscoll on that irish sporting yt channel dishonestly claiming Scotland is bigging up their championship credentials

Pure lies . He's an arse!

alive555 wrote:Brian O Driscoll on that irish sporting yt channel dishonestly claiming Scotland is bigging up their championship credentials

Pure lies . He's an arse!

I swear the Irish media have it in for Scotland. To be fair they've already lost the vast majority of their credit by inviting Matt Williams on as a pundit.

alive555 wrote:Brian O Driscoll on that irish sporting yt channel dishonestly claiming Scotland is bigging up their championship credentials

Pure lies . He's an arse!

That’s a lovely narrative Brian, albeit not one remotely connected to reality!

He’s probably referring to Hamilton who probably shouldn’t have said that we’re 12 points better than Wales. No doubt we’ll probably lose by 12 points.

As far as the actual squad and coaches go they’re saying the right things in camp. Especially about banking the win immediately and focussing on Wales.

alive555 wrote:Brian O Driscoll on that irish sporting yt channel dishonestly claiming Scotland is bigging up their championship credentials

Pure lies . He's an arse!

Yes, there's only space for one celtic nation which believes it will win every game it plays and whose press is hopelessly condescending and dismissive towards any other side. And that is certainly Ireland.

George Carlin wrote:

alive555 wrote:Brian O Driscoll on that irish sporting yt channel dishonestly claiming Scotland is bigging up their championship credentials

Pure lies . He's an arse!

Yes, there's only space for one celtic nation which believes it will win every game it plays and whose press is hopelessly condescending and dismissive towards any other side. And that is certainly Ireland.

Wales do it too.

Usually.

Just not recently