England v Scotland 6N Championship Saturday 4th February 2023

First topic message reminder :

England v Scotland
Twickenham Stadium
London

Calcutta Cup & 6 Nations Championship

Saturday 4th February 2023

Kick Off - 16.45



Well here we go again, The Auld Enemies meet up in their first games of the 6N to play for the Calcutta Cup, just the same as last year, except at a different stadium.

Time was, Scotland rocking up at Twickenham was pretty much a certain defeat, but we have won and drawn on our last two trips down south, so maybe HQ does not hold the same fear for us as it once did.


First games of the 6N can of course be a bit of a lottery, when form goes out of the window. Both sides though, could only be described as having patchy form in the first place, with England playing badly enough in the autumn to manage to get their coach the sack and Scotland hardly setting the heather alight either. So a hard one to call.

England under a new coach, have everything to prove and the players have world cup squad places on their minds. A big ask for a new squad under new coaching to immediately get what the new regime wants straight away.

Scotland are perhaps a lot more settled than they have been arriving for recent tournaments and the polemic between the coach, Townsend and the star playmaker, Russell seems to have simmered right down and has the making of a fine romance at the moment, can't live with each other, can't live without. Townsend is also probably playing for his job as well, as his contract has not been renewed post WC either. He says he would consider staying on, but whether he gets the chance will likely depend on a very good tournament from this perennially under performing side, albeit one that can pull off big wins on their day.


Home advantage for this fixture is still massive though and Scotland's depth will be sorely tested going into the competition with some key injuries, so the bookies money probably still rests with England. A close and exciting game though hopefully and I have got a vested interest as I am going!


My guess at the Scotland team:

1. Schoeman
2. Brown
3. Nel
4. Gray R
5. Gilchrist
6. Ritchie - capt
7. Crosbie
8. Fagerson M
9. Horne
10. Russell
11. DVDM
12. Tuipolotu
13. Harris
14. Steyn
15. Kinghorn


Subs

Sutherland
Turner
Fagerson Z
Skinner
Watson
White
Jones H
Smith

BBC rugby union podcast today is good with John Barclay and Danny Care. They discuss the 10/12 conundrum. Care says Smith Farrell at 10 12, Chris Jones and Barclay say no. Well worth a listen.

I don't think the issue is with Smith and Farrell being on the same wavelength; they are both big rugby brains and reportedly spent all their downtime on the Lions tour comparing notes. I think the issue is that so few of the other players were under Eddie's system... with the result that Smith didn't have the options and spent most of his attacking time without the ball shouting players to where he wanted them.

I could see Nick Evans arguing for a backline along the lines of:

Dombrandt (I know, he's a forward but for Quins he joins the backline and plays off 10 as much as he does off the back of the pack)
JVP
Smith
Murley Farrell Manu Marchant
Steward

That gives carrying, distribution and kicking options in midfield, a secondary fly half to relieve the pressure of a rush defence, and a bunch of players who read the game the way Smith does, with only one debutant playing in a system that will be at least somewhat familiar.

Quins have rather prematurely posted that all 5 of their players are in the XXIII - and with the centre dropouts it looks a plausible option as it at least has most combinations having had some games together before.

I don't think wing is Marchant best position, he's a 13. He can play there but he's better in centre.

mountain man wrote:I don't think wing is Marchant best position, he's a 13. He can play there but he's better in centre.

Oh, I agree. It's a compromise, but the trade off is that you get his experience of where to be when Smith has the ball and in my view the more of that you have on the pitch, the better.

RDW wrote:

jimbopip wrote:So, England looking at big, bruising centres. This means Toonie will counter with Wee Shona and the Hardest Working Man In World Rugby. Blarehorn may as well start at 14 since the ball won't get there at any point. I have a horrible feeling Duhan may be on the other wing; popping up between the centres to crash into whichever two big lumps England pick. What a waste.
Looks like thud and blunder all afternoon.

Can't wait.

Translations are available for our non-Irn Bru drinking friends on here

Don't you dare, deciphering Scottish posters nicknames for their players is a dyed in the wool V2 Six Nations tradition

Never realised they did it for England players though. Assuming Tuilagi is thud and Youngs is blunder.

BamBam wrote:

RDW wrote:

jimbopip wrote:So, England looking at big, bruising centres. This means Toonie will counter with Wee Shona and the Hardest Working Man In World Rugby. Blarehorn may as well start at 14 since the ball won't get there at any point. I have a horrible feeling Duhan may be on the other wing; popping up between the centres to crash into whichever two big lumps England pick. What a waste.
Looks like thud and blunder all afternoon.

Can't wait.

Translations are available for our non-Irn Bru drinking friends on here

Don't you dare, deciphering Scottish posters nicknames for their players is a dyed in the wool V2 Six Nations tradition

I'm slightly disappointed that the Luvvies among the Scottish posters haven't adopted The Boxer as a nickname for one of our players. Either it's too prosaic or too pugilistic for their refined tastes.

Dancer is on social media saying his relationship with Toonie is better than it has ever been. Blarehorn to start at 10 then.

Poorfour wrote:

mountain man wrote:I don't think wing is Marchant best position, he's a 13. He can play there but he's better in centre.

Oh, I agree. It's a compromise, but the trade off is that you get his experience of where to be when Smith has the ball and in my view the more of that you have on the pitch, the better.

Said it many times but it's the task of a good international to mould themselves to the players around them not for selection to mould itself around a player. I've never liked it in the forwards when folk talk about picking club units of hookers and locks for the lineout. I've never liked it with halfbacks. Etc etc.

Smith should become a terrific international fly-half but consistent talk of Care being the best option as they are familiar with each other or Dombrandt at 8 for the same reason just show that he isn't there yet. For Farrell's flaws I can't remember hearing that Spencer, Daly or Lozowski should be called up because they play club rugby together.

It's why I always hated the consistent suggestions of solving England's woeful attack by "building a backline around Smith". Not by any fault of Smith, simply because I think it's such a flawed way of viewing international selection. If a 10s good enough to be first choice then they are good enough to pass the ball to blokes they don't play club rugby with.

Paul Williams will ref the Calcutta Cup. Good referee! It’s actually a full Kiwi reffing contingent.

jimbopip wrote:Dancer is on social media saying his relationship with Toonie is better than it has ever been. Blarehorn to start at 10 then.

In about the same place as Austin Healey's relationship with reality then...

I have a worrying feeling that Toonie is going to basically ignore form and fitness and go with historical tried and tested players, something like

1 Schoeman
2 Turner
3 Fagerson
4 J Gray
5 Gilchrist
6 Ritchie
7 Watson
8 Fagerson

9 Price
10 Russell
11 VDM
12 Tuipolotu
13 Harris
14 Maitland
15 Hogg

Which looks like a starting XV from 3 years ago. 1/3 of that team have barely played in a few months.

Surely not...?

king_carlos wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

mountain man wrote:I don't think wing is Marchant best position, he's a 13. He can play there but he's better in centre.

Oh, I agree. It's a compromise, but the trade off is that you get his experience of where to be when Smith has the ball and in my view the more of that you have on the pitch, the better.

Said it many times but it's the task of a good international to mould themselves to the players around them not for selection to mould itself around a player. I've never liked it in the forwards when folk talk about picking club units of hookers and locks for the lineout. I've never liked it with halfbacks. Etc etc.

Smith should become a terrific international fly-half but consistent talk of Care being the best option as they are familiar with each other or Dombrandt at 8 for the same reason just show that he isn't there yet. For Farrell's flaws I can't remember hearing that Spencer, Daly or Lozowski should be called up because they play club rugby together.

It's why I always hated the consistent suggestions of solving England's woeful attack by "building a backline around Smith". Not by any fault of Smith, simply because I think it's such a flawed way of viewing international selection. If a 10s good enough to be first choice then they are good enough to pass the ball to blokes they don't play club rugby with.

Familiarity counts, though, especially if you are trying to get a team to gel quickly around a consistent playing style. As Eddie showed, even he couldn't meld an unstructured attack from a bunch of players whose sum total experience together was half a dozen games each and some time in camp. His selection, I think, was based around players who he expected to work well in his system once they'd learned it - but he didn't allow enough time to get them up a steep and painful learning curve.

Borthwick has to get a functioning team for the RWC and doesn't have long to do it. A shortcut to that is to make the most of players who already have an understanding.

I'm not advocating that you pick subpar players just because they have played together, but when you have several players at a similar level, fit with those around them can be an important factor in making the selection decision.

I was somewhat hoping we'd seen the death of the Smith/Farrell axis what with an actual inside centre available and both a head coach and attack coach that have previously opted for more direct options in midfield. I'm not in anyway concerned by Smith dropping down to the bench, Farrell isn't going to set the world alight at 10 but right now steady and solid is probably what we need and Smith has looked neither in recent England appearances. Coming off the bench may actually suit him better, build his confidence and then allow him to take the starting berth later in the 6N or the summer.

A direct 12 in Manu then a secondary running threat of Lawrence or Marchant at 13 would give us a more potent attack with Steward linking to the wings and offering the alternative kicking option. I like Marchant but struggle to see him and Murley starting is down to the lack of kicking game from either, I think we're more likely to see at least one of the wings offer a secondary fullback style skillset be that Watson or Freeman.

jimbopip wrote:So, England looking at big, bruising centres. This means Toonie will counter with Wee Shona* and the Hardest Working Man In World Rugby**. Blarehorn*** may as well start at 14 since the ball won't get there at any point. I have a horrible feeling Duhan**** may be on the other wing; popping up between the centres to crash into whichever two big lumps England pick. What a waste.
Looks like thud and blunder all afternoon.

Can't wait.

* Mr Sione Tuipulotu
** Mr Christopher Harris
*** Mr Blair Kinghorn.
**** Sir Duhan of van der Merwe

When Jimbo started talking about Henry at flyhalf I had to convince myself I wasn't in some dystopian nightmare whereby Toonie had decided pyrgos was best suited to the position. By the time he'd decided what to do with the ball he'd have been tackled, turned over and the opposition scored a converted try.

Is Ludlum in the England squad?

Edit...he could be a surprise selection to statrt...might love the confrontational game thats coming.

Geordie wrote:Is Ludlum in the England squad?

Edit...he could be a surprise selection to statrt...might love the confrontational game thats coming.

If he starts at 8 then I'm buying popcorn, pieing off work and watching this thread like a livestream.

Youngs at 9. Farrell at 12. Manu at 13. Locks at blindside. 6-2 bench. Mako involved. Willis not in the 23. Malins in the 23. Steward on the wing.

There are so many tantalising possibilities.

Occasionally just poking my stick in for a stir with stuff I don't even believe. "Maybe Ludlam's stronger on kick chase". "Perhaps Dombrandt is too slow getting back into the defensive line". "Squidge thinks Smith is England's third best 10".

On second thoughts maybe Sarge should just ban me for Thursday so I get something done with my life.

we live in hope

Poorfour wrote:Familiarity counts, though, especially if you are trying to get a team to gel quickly around a consistent playing style. As Eddie showed, even he couldn't meld an unstructured attack from a bunch of players whose sum total experience together was half a dozen games each and some time in camp. His selection, I think, was based around players who he expected to work well in his system once they'd learned it - but he didn't allow enough time to get them up a steep and painful learning curve.

Borthwick has to get a functioning team for the RWC and doesn't have long to do it. A shortcut to that is to make the most of players who already have an understanding.

I'm not advocating that you pick subpar players just because they have played together, but when you have several players at a similar level, fit with those around them can be an important factor in making the selection decision.

The biggest issue, amongst many, with bedding that new structure was just unavailability I think. Farrell, Manu, Watson and May all variously injured whilst they were trying that shift. That's probably the first choice 11-14 when it was first being implemented. Had they been fit maybe it works better, then you can gradually introduce new players into a working system. Honestly I'm sceptical England had the right personnel in the pack for it anyway though.

My expectation and hope is that we'll see a more rigid 3-3-2 or 1-3-3-1 from the forwards in attack that all players will have familiarity with. Hence there shouldn't be the need for club partnerships.

Nothing against Quins players either! I'd start Dombrandt as I think he's got more potential than Simmonds as an international. I really rate Murley given his all-round skills and pace, I think a Murley/Watson/Steward back three could be cracking. I'm a big fan of Marchant too. Personally I'd start Farrell over Smith at 10 as I think he'll suit the tactics better but I've said many times I believe Smith has the potential to be a fantastic international 10 in time.

I agree with most of that, except for the rigid forward system. I don't think that cuts it at International level any more unless you have a really powerful set of forwards (and England don't). The system needs some variation to make it harder for the defence to commit; teams are better at recognising the patterns and not overcommitting.

Also, using Dombrandt in a pod system turns him into a poor man's Billy V rather than using his potential to run unexpected lines.

We won't have many familiar pairing options in the forwards, though, so they will need to keep it simpler than Eddie did. The likely starting 8 is going to be 2 Bristol props, either 2 or 3 Sarries depending on George, 1 or 2 Quins depending on the same and a flanker from somewhere else - with only the front row and Itoje having a significant cap count.

I did see apeice in one of the better newspapers earier this week that said Borthwick likes Ludlam due to his ability to make ground in contact on nearly every occasion. What this says about possible inclusion though is anybody's guess'

Jokes of picking him at 8 aside I rate Ludlam partly for that reason. WPI. He has really good leg drive after contact when carrying against set-defences. Due to his pace he also has good line speed, is prominent in kick chase and is an effective support player. He's physical in the tackle too.

The noticeable flankers tend to be ones that really excel in a flashy area. Lots of jackal turnovers. Eye catching dominant hits. Clean breaks. One handed offloads. Etc. Players who are arguably the best available in one facet but fall down a bit in others. Whereas Ludlam is probably top 3 in most facets even if he isn't the best in an individual one.

I'm expecting it to be Isiekwe at 6 in Lawes absence but I'd be very happy with 6.Ludlam 7.Earl 8.Dombrandt as a back row for the weekend.

Genge, George, Cole
Ribbans, Itoje
Isiekwe, Ludlam (at 8), B Curry
Youngs, Farrell
Manu, Lawrence
Marchant, Steward - on the wings
Malins

Walker, Vunipola, Sinckler, Earl, Chessum, Dombrandt, JVP, Smith.

Three locks, openside at 8, Y/F halfback combo, centre and Steward on the wings and 6/2 bench split. I think that covers everyone's favourite combinations from recent years.

So for Scotland, i've not been told the full team but i have been told:

In - Seaman, Huwipulotu (dont know who is wearing which number), Ben White, Crosbie
Out - Mish, Aldi Price

Tramptastic wrote:So for Scotland, i've not been told the full team but i have been told:

In - Seaman, Huwipulotu (dont know who is wearing which number), Ben White, Crosbie
Out - Mish, Aldi Price

It would be hard to argue with any of those calls!

@Tramptastic, for the sake of newbies to the game like me can you put subtitles to your post lol, who is Seaman??

Luckily I know that Huwipulotu is a Jones/Tuipulotu pairing, Mish is Hamish Watson and Aldi is Ali Price.

Please and thank you :P.

So according to a few journos the team is:
Genge
George
Cole
Itoje
Chessum
Ludlam
Curry
Dombrandt
Youngs
Smith
Farrell
Manu
OHC
Watson
Steward

Speculation at least ends tomorrow, but I would be disappointed if this is true. I can see the set piece struggling.

hugehandoff wrote:So according to a few journos the team is:
Genge
George
Cole
Itoje
Chessum
Ludlam
Curry
Dombrandt
Youngs
Smith
Farrell
Manu
OHC
Watson
Steward

Speculation at least ends tomorrow, but I would be disappointed if this is true. I can see the set piece struggling.

That's the same line-up Tim at Eggchasers talks about. He says The England camp has given no clues, so the speculation is based on what journalists are seeing at training, together with who has been sent home to their clubs.

Rugby Fan wrote:

hugehandoff wrote:So according to a few journos the team is:
Genge
George
Cole
Itoje
Chessum
Ludlam
Curry
Dombrandt
Youngs
Smith
Farrell
Manu
OHC
Watson
Steward

Speculation at least ends tomorrow, but I would be disappointed if this is true. I can see the set piece struggling.

That's the same line-up Tim at Eggchasers talks about. He says The England camp has given no clues, so the speculation is based on what journalists are seeing at training, together with who has been sent home to their clubs.

and are you happy with it if true?

Highland Shaun wrote:@Tramptastic, for the sake of newbies to the game like me can you put subtitles to your post lol, who is Seaman??

Luckily I know that Huwipulotu is a Jones/Tuipulotu pairing, Mish is Hamish Watson and Aldi is Ali Price.

Please and thank you :P.

Seaman Steyn obviously, after the alleged names of Captain Pugwash's crew. (Alleged because there was no actual master bates or seaman staines)

Rugby Fan wrote:

hugehandoff wrote:So according to a few journos the team is:
Genge
George
Cole
Itoje
Chessum
Ludlam
Curry
Dombrandt
Youngs
Smith
Farrell
Manu
OHC
Watson
Steward

Speculation at least ends tomorrow, but I would be disappointed if this is true. I can see the set piece struggling.

That's the same line-up Tim at Eggchasers talks about. He says The England camp has given no clues, so the speculation is based on what journalists are seeing at training, together with who has been sent home to their clubs.

Really, no clues from Borthwick? Who'd expect anything less from the man who's idea of giving injury news at Tigers was to name the team for a game. We'd only know someone was fit again if they were named in the side on Friday lunchtime.

Steve also likes the occasional tactical selection from left field.

Hard to know at present if any of the journalists do have the inside line or not as they had under Lancaster and lost under Jones. Telegraph reckon it's Smith Farrell Marchant and Lawrence on the bench. Tuilagi to be left out. I suppose if we start with H-C and Steward we do have some heavier guys to pop up in midfield and we may even see Dombrandt there.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hard to know at present if any of the journalists do have the inside line or not as they had under Lancaster and lost under Jones. Telegraph reckon it's Smith Farrell Marchant and Lawrence on the bench. Tuilagi to be left out. I suppose if we start with H-C and Steward we do have some heavier guys to pop up in midfield and we may even see Dombrandt there.

England need to learn to live without Manu for sure. He's just not player he was and there are better alternatives available now. If Marchant and Lawrence involved and in centres that's OK with me. I'm still not sold on Smith Farrell at 10 12 and if it's combined with Youngs at 9....

lostinwales wrote:

Highland Shaun wrote:@Tramptastic, for the sake of newbies to the game like me can you put subtitles to your post lol, who is Seaman??

Luckily I know that Huwipulotu is a Jones/Tuipulotu pairing, Mish is Hamish Watson and Aldi is Ali Price.

Please and thank you :P.

Seaman Steyn obviously, after the alleged names of Captain Pugwash's crew. (Alleged because there was no actual master bates or seaman staines)

As with all of the scottish nicknames, all credit goes to Jimbopip

Although was Aldi Price a Squidgerugby effort?

I believe that Aldi Price was begotten upon us by Ian Bru.

It tickles me no end when I hear Squidge Rugby use our nicknames. Tom English once mentioned "some Scottish fans even refer to Greg Laidlaw as Frodo The Ponderous." Fame at last. ( Though like the best jokes on here it was a team effort; FES called him Frodo and I complained about his slow service by adding The Ponderous.)

My favourite rugby nickname at the moment is one that a small number of Quins fans use. There's a tradition on our messageboard of making anagrams of players' names when they emerge in the squad.

The one that stuck the most was probably June Porno-Salad for Paul Doran-Jones.

But the most satisfying one to yell from the touchline is Joe Marchant's, because you can rearrange the letters of his name into Nacho Ramjet.

Regarding nicknames etc it's often football fans who come up wih some crackers along with songs about players etc. I'm definitely no fan of club football though, only watch England Internationals but now and again hear a clip of an amusing song etc.

Many moons ago Jan Molby who played for Swansea I think had his car towed away for illegal parking and the fans came up with :
"He's fat, he's round, his car is in the pound".

Molby was on the portly side if anyone remembers. Anyway, it tickled me.

Jan Molby was so "big boned", or tigertattie sized, that a journalist once said, " At Liverpool they say no man is bigger than the cub...Jan Molby seems to be trying to disprove that."

According to the times it's:

F Steward; M Malins, J Marchant, O Farrell, O Hassell-Collins; M Smith, J van Poortvliet; E Genge, J George, K Sinckler, M Itoje, O Chessum, B Curry, L Ludlam, A Dombrandt. Substitutes J Walker, M Vunipola, D Cole, N Isiekwe, B Earl, B Youngs, O Lawrence, A Watson.

mountain man wrote:Regarding nicknames etc it's often football fans who come up wih some crackers along with songs about players etc. I'm definitely no fan of club football though, only watch England Internationals but now and again hear a clip of an amusing song etc.

Many moons ago Jan Molby who played for Swansea I think had his car towed away for illegal parking and the fans came up with :
"He's fat, he's round, his car is in the pound".

Molby was on the portly side if anyone remembers. Anyway, it tickled me.

My favourite football nickname was Fitz Hall who got called One Size by his teammates. Geordan Murphy calling Billy Twelvetrees, 36 was good but also a blessing to the forum fans.

The all time winner of the nickname contest is probably John Eales. Nobody is the kind of nickname you can really own.

I may of missed it but have the teams been named yet?

Or  will  it be Friday lunch time?

majesticimperialman wrote:I may of missed it but have the teams been named yet?

Or  will  it be Friday lunch time?

Tomorrow morning.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:I may of missed it but have the teams been named yet?

Or  will  it be Friday lunch time?

Tomorrow morning.

Thanks for that.

Yoda wrote:According to the times it's:

F Steward; M Malins, J Marchant, O Farrell, O Hassell-Collins; M Smith, J van Poortvliet; E Genge, J George, K Sinckler, M Itoje, O Chessum, B Curry, L Ludlam, A Dombrandt. Substitutes J Walker, M Vunipola, D Cole, N Isiekwe, B Earl, B Youngs, O Lawrence, A Watson.

Not a fan of Malins. He's versatile but doesn't strike me as a starting international. I don't think his impressive achievements at premier level translate that well to playing against the better international teams.

lostinwales wrote:

Yoda wrote:According to the times it's:

F Steward; M Malins, J Marchant, O Farrell, O Hassell-Collins; M Smith, J van Poortvliet; E Genge, J George, K Sinckler, M Itoje, O Chessum, B Curry, L Ludlam, A Dombrandt. Substitutes J Walker, M Vunipola, D Cole, N Isiekwe, B Earl, B Youngs, O Lawrence, A Watson.

Not a fan of Malins. He's versatile but doesn't strike me as a starting international. I don't think his impressive achievements at premier level translate that well to playing against the better international teams.

I rate Malins as a fullback but not as an international wing. That would be the only selection in there that I really wouldn't be on board with. The rest I largely like. I'd have started Earl over Burry and Murley over OHC but I rate all of them so those aren't calls that frustrate too much.

On one of our projects, the finance guys codenamed it Project Biden.

Because it might keel over and die at any time.

Poorfour wrote:The all time winner of the nickname contest is probably John Eales. Nobody is the kind of nickname you can really own.

Wasn't that though a myth? I think they asked Eales and his team about the Nobody nickname and he said wasn't true. Was good though.

There were some among the terraces for Paul Dickov (former Man City striker). I think they would probably be close to being against the sites rules though to write.