Scotland World Cup buildup

First topic message reminder :

Scotland v Italy
Saturday 29 July

Scotland v France
Saturday 5 August

France v Scotland
Saturday 12 August

Scotland v Georgia
Saturday 26 August

I think it's only fair to start another thread for this topic because I can see it being a popular topic in terms of discussion .

First things first is that 3 wins from 5 and a 3rd place finish probably exceeded expectations because most would have said 2 wins and the 4th place win, the one that most would have called was England to beat us as they were at home so imho we certainly deserve enormous credit for that one because we played very well against an England team that also had their moments, in fact I could already see improvements from the Eddie Jones era during that game and until DVDM clinched it at the death, I was still pretty worried we wouldn't win so was understandably over the moon that we did win.

The Wales and Italy matches were mixed bags tbh but we did get 5pts from both which was crucial, the Welsh game we didn't really perform first half and were in fact fortunate to go in at half time ahead but second half we were excellent and deserved the bonus point win.  The Italy game was a mixed bag in terms of; we had patches where we did well and others where we were hanging on, such as the last 2mins, I also felt that in that game our top centre pairing of Huwipulotu were quiet in attack though DVDM was a bit more involved that he had been in the previous few weeks before.

The France game was bloody frustrating because we showed glimpses of how well we can play especially in the second half for large parts but we were guilty of missing key opportunities and indiscipline from the captain of all people was our undoing which is where the frustration comes because as fans, we expect our captain to know what the ref will tolerate in terms of backchat!

The Ireland game was a game of 2 halfs, in the first half we were going toe to toe with them, it was probably the best we've played against them in a very long time; second half was a completely different story, we basically just capitalutated and handed the game to them with basic errors and more stupid indiscipline.

In terms of the coach, I have made my feelings known and really hope that the situation is resolved by at least mid to late April as we really need clarity on the situation!

Finally, for the summer warm up matches I'd like to see fringe players like Cameron Henderson, Ben Healy, Stafford McDowall, Kyle Rowe and Ollie Smith get some game time to see what they can offer either at the world cup (unlikely) or next 6N in 2024 .

I'm Irish, and you lot are scaring the poop out of me. Keep having nightmares you spank us.
Can this please be your peak and you start the slide down now if that's ok?

Cheers.

On a serious note you are playing some fantastic rugby, just wish you were in a different group, as I'm sure you do too.

Again the joys of the Scottish mentality - if we could swap places with England or Wales in their groups we'd probably be far more nervous at this point because the pressure would be on as likely group favourites!

Finn was Finn.

Sublime and then bonkers. His chip over the top gifted France a try. The kick wasn’t contestable or deep enough to make the french defence turn. They run onto it and then through us. It was a kick he shouldn’t have made but he forced it with frustration.

Uber frustrating

Yeah that was a garbage kick. We had made some great field position as well at that point and had things under control. A kick to territory would have been better served. That street smart mentality was lacking at times while the confidence was high.

It's been interesting reading the comments over the last few days. Trepidation, Optimism, Realism, Rationalisation, Inspiration and Desperation.
It's TORRID being a Scotland supporter.
I watched the match, and even to the end, I felt that we could win in it.
On reflection (and at the time) I felt that the man in the middle did us no favours at all, and reffed us disproportionately to the higher ranked team (thankfully we only have 4 teams now, that we could suffer this from) and I also felt that our defense/positioning let us down.  BK in particular was absent at times, and I still can't work out why he didn't go for N'Tamack on the way to his try - there was nothing to lose, but he didn't even try to get him.
For me, we need Ollie Smith at FB, and Kinghorn as a sub.
I think we have just about cracked it though, and need to keep with the positive mindset. We would have been elated a few years ago to run France so close on their territory. So to be "disappointed" after this result, really shows our progress.
I was trying to think of a reserve Loosie, and have just remembered Kebble, who we may need after the cheap shot to Sutherland. that Sutherland is OK.
I think there is a bit more to come from this group, and it is not us who have something to fear.

jimbopip wrote: In a 5/3 split he would be on the bench covering 13 and wings. In a 6/2 I think Smith covers the back three and allows Blarehorn to go to 10 if needed.

The concept of using king Blairhorn as a back up 10 against the Boks or Ireland scares the living daylights out of me.

Sure, your doing it in the hope that he never has to move up, but all it takes is an injury to Finn with more than 10 minutes to play and we would be toast.

These last two games have shown Kinghorn is an infinitely better fullback than he is a standoff.That doesn't mean that he is any better equipped to play in the front line against world class back row forwards coming at him.

Although, as AngloBH said, his defence is wanting far too often. If Smith hadn't hit Villiere so hard the " electric matchstick" ,as one commentator called him, would have dotted down for a try having brushed off Kinghorn' s attempted tackle, ( or was it a cuddle?) with a powerful handoff to his chest.
It's not good enough.

Agree with both Anglo and Sensiball about Blarehorn's defence. France's second try after the break is a cracker, but....Blarehorn stops chasing his kick when it goes into touch which allows France to take the quick throw, he then stands still while Dupont skips past him, he jogs along behind the French attackers and then stops completely and is a spectator while they score. It just looks as if he gave up very early on in that sequence.

Also, I can see why coaches go for a 6/2 split but it does compromise your choice of backs replacements more than somewhat. We can either have a proper 10, Healey, or a back three utility, Smith, and a liability, Blarehorn, to move up to 10. Not ideal.

Ntamack is out of the World Cup. Poor guy, I’d hoped it wasn’t a serious injury because missing out in your home World Cup would be devastating. He looked pretty solemn in the stadium after he went off. Baille is out for six weeks as well.

Any news on VDM? He looked in a bit of pain when he went off. Lot of strapping on his leg during the game.

bsando wrote: Ntamack is out of the World Cup. Poor guy, I’d hoped it wasn’t a serious injury because missing out in your home World Cup would be devastating. He looked pretty solemn in the stadium after he went off. Baille is out for six weeks as well.

And an ACL of all things, poor bloke. He won't be the last big name to go down before the tournament starts either, that's always the worst part of the build up to the tournament. I hope the rugby gods are looking kindly on Scotland over the new few weeks!

Jez, that is bad luck, 2 big players for France to lose, even with their depth, 2 nailed on starters.

Baille could well be the best LH in the world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPfYoY8cvHA&ab_channel=RugbyZ

Portugal humped the USA in their latest warm up. They have some flyers in their side. Apparently they had a training game with Ireland as well going by various rugby sites. It would be great to see them do well.

Wonder how much time Owen Farrell will get in the Chokey today? I'll admit I am taking a certain petty delight in his possible punishment options.

He could be down for a 5-stretch. Six is the starting point of a mid level offense and is obviously usually negotiated down from there for mitigating factors such as remorse, lack of priors, tackle school, biscuits etc. But he didn't show remorse at the time, has been to tackle school already this year and his past could now start to work agin him. Could be 7, therefore. There is very little sense in the panel decisions though and he is still, bafflingly, England captain 2 games out from a World Cup.

Anyway, here's to Charlie Atkinson, Darcy Graham, André Esterhuizen, and all the others.

Oooo when did he hit darcy graham?

In the brief, blissfully lucid moments when I can still remember where I left my car keys (in the microwave usually, right next to the paraquat) I think of the RFU rigging the schedule so that No Arms managed to serve a, surprisingly short, ban and still be available for all of England's 6 Nations fixtures. Well, this time there is only one possible fixture so even if the panel bent over backwards to "preserve the spectacle and have the best players playing" the best he could hope for is three weeks. Ragnar got three with a week off for Tackle school. But No Arms has been there so often he has got a Prefect's badge so he can't go again. He could claim contrition, but squaring up to Dan Biggar in the immediate aftermath would make anyone question just how contrite he was. Nah, he's a serial offender and the sound of his brief pleading his case will be drowned out by the clucking of all those chickens who have decided now is the apposite time to come home to roost. Six weeks I reckon.

As John Lennon said, Instant Karma's gonna get you.

He certainly deserves 6 weeks. That might be the length of ban that finally makes him wake up and smell the coffee.

Tackles like that are going to kill rugby off and are just indefensible.

You do always suspect a fudge, though!

jimbopip wrote:In the brief, blissfully lucid moments when I can still remember where I left my car keys (in the microwave usually, right next to the paraquat) I think of the RFU rigging the schedule so that No Arms managed to serve a, surprisingly short, ban and still be available for all of England's 6 Nations fixtures. Well, this time there is only one possible fixture so even if the panel bent over backwards to "preserve the spectacle and have the best players playing" the best he could hope for is three weeks. Ragnar got three with a week off for Tackle school. But No Arms has been there so often he has got a Prefect's badge so he can't go again. He could claim contrition, but squaring up to Dan Biggar in the immediate aftermath would make anyone question just how contrite he was. Nah, he's a serial offender and the sound of his brief pleading his case will be drowned out by the clucking of all those chickens who have decided now is the apposite time to come home to roost. Six weeks I reckon.

As John Lennon said, Instant Karma's gonna get you.

Since when was that a crime?

Lost

If i was captaining a side against one which contained Mr Biggar there would be a drawing of lots just before kick off. The winner would have the honour of being first to thump him.

I hear that off the pitch he is a decent human being but on the pitch

This is nice. Beeb:

More than 50 players who represented Scotland in matches that at the time did not have Test status are to be awarded international caps.

Twenty-nine of the 56 played in Services or Victory internationals during and after World War Two.

The other 27 featured in 'Scotland XV' line-ups but will now join the 1,140 players to have been capped since 1871.

All Scotland Women players will receive a cap, as the physical presentation was not always part of the women's game.

Listen: Will Scotland's uncapped heroes be recognised?
"Awarding a cap retrospectively may seem purely symbolic or belated by some people, but I know from conversations with some of those players and their families what this decision will mean to them," said Scottish Rugby Union president Colin Rigby.

"Given this year marks the 150th anniversary of the formation of the union, we wanted to look afresh at our history and recognise the rich and enduring contribution those players have made to our game."

Existing chronological Scotland cap numbers will not be affected and nor will the past caps and points records of other players who won full caps be adjusted.

All 56 retrospective capped players will be added in a panel after Scotland's most recent player, Cameron Henderson of Leicester, who was cap number 1140 and thus the new players will run forward from 1141 to 1196.

The most recent players not to receive a cap until now were Melrose flanker Craig Redpath in a 23-5 victory in Nuku'alofa against Tonga in 1993 and Willie Anderson of Glasgow Caledonians/Kirkcaldy in a 85-3 win against Spain in a World Cup qualifier in 1998.

Redpath was on the bench for the legendary Grand Slam season of 1990 but did not feature other than the game against Tonga.

The full list of those players to be awarded retrospective caps is on the SRU's website.

BigGee wrote:He certainly deserves 6 weeks. That might be the length of ban that finally makes him wake up and smell the coffee.

Tackles like that are going to kill rugby off and are just indefensible.

You do always suspect a fudge, though!

Hmm, maybe I saw this coming!

When you think about it, it's the only possible decision.
If the card was ratified then he couldn't get less than six weeks. That couldn't happen. Australia are in England's half of the draw: a panel of aussies couldn't put one of England's most important players out of the tournament therefore he had to be innocent.

Looks like George saved him with his involvement before the tackle. I tend to agree with the panel on this one

jimbopip wrote:When you think about it, it's the only possible decision.
If the card was ratified then he couldn't get less than six weeks. That couldn't happen. Australia are in England's half of the draw: a panel of aussies couldn't put one of England's most important players out of the tournament therefore he had to be innocent.

Or maybe they think England would be better off without him - that's the only explanation that makes any sense ....

bsando wrote:Looks like George saved him with his involvement before the tackle. I tend to agree with the panel on this one  

George's involvement was being on the receiving end of Bashams hand off

Farrell, regardless of how upright Basham will be, is lining him up fully upright - you can't tackle someone below the sternum if you are stood straight! If Basham didnt dip then its possible that Farrell instigates a head on head tackle which is puts both of them at risk!

Apparently the disciplinary committee ripped up the charge sheet when Farrell said that he once met Jonathan Sexton.

Heaf wrote:

jimbopip wrote:When you think about it, it's the only possible decision.
If the card was ratified then he couldn't get less than six weeks. That couldn't happen. Australia are in England's half of the draw: a panel of aussies couldn't put one of England's most important players out of the tournament therefore he had to be innocent.

Or maybe they think England would be better off without him - that's the only explanation that makes any sense ....

Of course that's the answer.  Anything to make England worse. Shocking decision otherwise.

Tramptastic wrote:

bsando wrote:Looks like George saved him with his involvement before the tackle. I tend to agree with the panel on this one  

George's involvement was being on the receiving end of Bashams hand off

Farrell, regardless of how upright Basham will be, is lining him up fully upright - you can't tackle someone below the sternum if you are stood straight! If Basham didnt dip then its possible that Farrell instigates a head on head tackle which is puts both of them at risk!

I totally agree with you tramp, it’s just that pro rugby seems to work on the type of tackle technique that Farrell used. Pro sides are clearly coaching a higher tackle technique to nullify offloads and slow down attacks. It’s wrong and actually rugby is turning into a form of judo in many cases with slow ball sometimes becoming a one on one wrestle to either bring a player down or hold them up to strip the ball or win a maul. If it carries on this way who knows what sort of game we’ll have in seasons ahead.

Rambo, Walker, House Elf and Bayliss all left out of the final World Cup squad.
Bayliss is the only real surprise as he featured, and showed up well, in recent games.
I wonder if Crosbie was carrying an injury, or if Bayliss picked one up in St Ettiene.

Ben Healy made the squad, good for him.

The hookers all played pretty well, so Rambo was unlucky to miss out, but any of them would have been.

Also s little surprised at Bayliss, who seems to have done well with his game time but I guess Crosbie was in the original squad over him and as Jimbo ssys msybe he has been carrying a niggle to stop him playing.

All in all though, I am happy with that squad which seems to have largely picked itself on form.

Pretty happy with the squad tbh. It's hard to argue dobbie for price, even though the latters form is on the wane, as it'd leave us short of experience in a key position.

RWC finalists 2023.

(Kidding but we could conceivably make the quarters, got a mountain to climb to get there!)

I am going into this world cup with some hope but little expectation and I hope that rubs off on the team as well.

Huw Jones was on media today and is already trotting out the 'we are happy to be the underdogs' line.

The first game v SA is the key one for us as there is always the chance to catch a team a bit cold in the first game. Lose it though and I am not sure there is any way back for us.

That is the match I am going to so I certainly hope it is going to be a cracker!

Basically I think we're relying on the Irish choke (not the tackle), and the SA slow start and that our players decide they're not going to allow too many easy scores. A lot has to go our way but let's hope the stars align!

Got to feel for Mcinally as he's effectively retired now, but no doubt will be needing to keep himself fit on case of injury callup!

RDW wrote:Got to feel for Mcinally as he's effectively retired now, but no doubt will be needing to keep himself fit on case of injury callup!

I suppose that is the problem for McInally, does he want to or does he even have the motivation to keep himself in match shape.

The others will be going back to their clubs and getting stuck into regular training and so will be ready for the call. If there is no injury after the Georgia game then you would imagine that Rambo will be getting stuck into his, 'how to fly a big plane' manual. It won't be easy for him to keep in shape nor you would imagine will he want to risk getting injured.

Surely he'll keep training with Edinburgh. He's definitely 4th choice hooker and there's a high chance he'll get a callup.

I remember Big Jim Hamilton bailing from international rugby as soon as he was not selected, but that was maybe more to do with him having a thorny relationship with VC and him not liking the way that Tim Swinson was selected over him.

I doubt Rambo will take the huff over this but I do wonder if he will really want to keep hammering himself in his position with his new career ahead of him.

Who would be replacement hooker if not Mcinally?

RDW wrote:Who would be replacement hooker if not Mcinally?

Johnny Mathews you would say. He was probably not to far off the original squad in any case, just his lack of international experience keeping him out. He certainly had a better season that McInally.

bsando wrote:

Tramptastic wrote:

bsando wrote:Looks like George saved him with his involvement before the tackle. I tend to agree with the panel on this one  

George's involvement was being on the receiving end of Bashams hand off

Farrell, regardless of how upright Basham will be, is lining him up fully upright - you can't tackle someone below the sternum if you are stood straight! If Basham didnt dip then its possible that Farrell instigates a head on head tackle which is puts both of them at risk!

I totally agree with you tramp, it’s just that pro rugby seems to work on the type of tackle technique that Farrell used. Pro sides are clearly coaching a higher tackle technique to nullify offloads and slow down attacks. It’s wrong and actually rugby is turning into a form of judo in many cases with slow ball sometimes becoming a one on one wrestle to either bring a player down or hold them up to strip the ball or win a maul. If it carries on this way who knows what sort of game we’ll have in seasons ahead.

That was certainly the case 10 years or so back. Brought into union in a big way by the glut of the league defence coaches that came over. Recent years I've heard it go the other way. Even when I was still playing a few years back we had a guest pro coach come in to do some defence coaching and although the session was all around dominating the contact area there was a big onus on hitting low and driving up. Avoid going near the head. Hard to offload when you're are being cut in half and driven back.

Admittedly that was at a level far below professional.

BigGee wrote:I remember Big Jim Hamilton bailing from international rugby as soon as he was not selected, but that was maybe more to do with him having a thorny relationship with VC and him not liking the way that Tim Swinson was selected over him.

I doubt Rambo will take the huff over this but I do wonder if he will really want to keep hammering himself in his position with his new career ahead of him.

And then Swinson went on to prove Hamilton wrong and have a very successful club and international career.

Sad for McInally who I felt had done enough to warrant selection. Undoubtedly the biggest omission. He is a very good ball carrier where as Cherry is a brilliant set piece man. So Seems like set piece won it in the end as Ashman and Turner are both very mobile hookers.

All in all the most settled, experienced and exciting squad I have seen from Scotland heading to a world cup.

Here is how it compares with 2019


2019 vs 2023

* Previous RWC Experience

FORWARDS
(17) / (19)

John Barclay (Edinburgh) – 74 caps** Rory Darge (Glasgow Warriors) 10 caps
Simon Berghan (Edinburgh) – 21 caps Javan Sebastian (Edinburgh Rugby) 5 caps
Fraser Brown (Glasgow Warriors) – 42 caps* Ewan Ashman (Edinburgh Rugby) 8 caps
Scott Cummings (Glasgow Warriors) – 3 caps Scott Cummings (Glasgow Warriors) 28 caps*
Allan Dell (London Irish) – 24 caps Jamie Bhatti (Glasgow Warriors) 31 caps
Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) – 21 caps Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) 59 caps*
Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh) – 36 caps* Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh Rugby) 64 caps**
Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors) – 51 caps* Sam Skinner (Edinburgh Rugby) 27 caps
Stuart McInally CAPTAIN (Edinburgh) – 29 caps Dave Cherry (Edinburgh Rugby) 9 caps
Willem Nel (Edinburgh) – 31 caps* WP Nel (Edinburgh Rugby) 55 caps**
Gordon Reid (Ayrshire Bulls) – 36 caps* Pierre Schoeman (Edinburgh Rugby) 23 caps
Jamie Ritchie (Edinburgh) – 11 caps Jamie Ritchie (Edinburgh Rugby) – CAPTAIN – 42 caps*
Blade Thomson (Scarlets) – 1 cap Jack Dempsey (Glasgow Warriors) 11 caps
Ben Toolis (Edinburgh) – 20 caps Richie Gray (Glasgow Warriors) 75 caps**
George Turner (Glasgow Warriors) – 7 caps George Turner (Glasgow Warriors) 37 caps*
Hamish Watson (Edinburgh) – 27 caps Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby) 58 caps*
Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors) – 44 caps* Luke Crosbie (Edinburgh Rugby) 5 caps
                                                               Matt Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) 35 caps
                                                               Rory Sutherland (Unattached) 25 caps
BACKS
(14) / (14)

Darcy Graham (Edinburgh) – 6 caps Darcy Graham (Edinburgh Rugby) 35 caps*
Chris Harris (Gloucester) – 9 caps Chris Harris (Gloucester Rugby) 43 caps*
Adam Hastings (Glasgow Warriors) – 13 caps Ben Healy (Edinburgh Rugby) 2 caps
Stuart Hogg (Exeter Chiefs) – 69 caps* Ollie Smith (Glasgow Warriors) 5 caps
George Horne (Glasgow Warriors) – 6 caps George Horne (Glasgow Warriors) 22 caps*
Pete Horne (Glasgow Warriors) – 42 caps* Cameron Redpath (Bath Rugby) 7 caps
Sam Johnson (Glasgow Warriors) – 5 caps Sione Tuipulotu (Glasgow Warriors) 18 caps
Blair Kinghorn (Edinburgh) – 14 caps Blair Kinghorn (Edinburgh Rugby) 46 caps*
Greig Laidlaw (Clermont Auvergne) – 73 caps* Ben White (RC Toulon) 15 caps
Sean Maitland (Saracens) – 42 caps* Kyle Steyn (Glasgow Warriors) 12 caps
Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors) – 26 caps Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors) 63 caps*
Finn Russell (Racing 92) – 46 caps* Finn Russell (Bath Rugby) 71 caps**
Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) – 51 caps* Duhan van der Merwe (Edinburgh Rugby) 30 caps
Duncan Taylor (Saracens) – 22 caps Huw Jones (Glasgow Warriors) 38 caps

What happened to Adam Hastings and why did he not get picked?

Collapse2005 wrote:What happened to Adam Hastings and why did he not get picked?

Imo Hastings is a better player than Healy.

Thankfully Gregor has proved that he’s a better selector in 2023 than he was in 2019. Much better squad, with really only 1 possibly contentious call and that’s at a push. I still at those centre picks from 2019 and the memories from Yokohama will forever haunt me!

https://www.theoffsideline.com/rwc23-scotland-squad-takeaways/

Some thoughts from GT regarding his selections.

Maine man wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:What happened to Adam Hastings and why did he not get picked?

Imo Hastings is a better player than Healy.

Been injured a lot this season, including the BaaBaas game at the end of the season, so never really got the chance to get himself into contention.

Healy took his chance against Italy to be fair and impressed. AH will have to produce some form next season to get back into the mix.

Am I mad if I say that I am quietly confident with our chances because our squad is looking good and probably was picked on merit :P.

I am so glad Ben Healy got in and now hope he gets a decent opportunity against Georgia amd perhaps Romania.

With how my football team (ICT) are going at the moment (winless in FIVE) I'm certainly looking forward to September 10 more than next Saturday against Airdrie!

Sorry if this has already been posted, but a refreshingly honest interview with Jack Dempsey!

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/66528936

Well he's definitely honest!

I think the key difference between him and the other "foreign" players is that he had a relatively substantial international career before Scotland. So not sure they all feel the same but I can believe that some have a more mercenary view than others.

However, I look at players like Nel and think these days he's more Scottish than some of our home grown lads!

Its a strange one - sporting nationality and civic nationality. I'd consider anyone who moves here seeking a better life, works, pays taxes, moans about inadequate local government to inherently have a right to call themselves scottish. Easy peasy, however, when it comes to sporting nationaility, all of a sudden bloodlines and accents become quite important! How wierd!

I was watching an interview with Duhan and he put it surprisingly succinctly. He is south african but scotland backed him and gave him the opportunity to have a career. So of course he wants to play for scotland, it was them who believed in him. Quite a lovely way of putting it and as someone who previously thought he was a bit of a merc in comparison to say, Nel or even Schoeman, he changed my mind!

Good to hear they got shredded by the coaches for their first half performance at Murrayfield. The improvements against the first team France were obvious.

Depending on how long Dempsey plays for Scotland he may well feel more Scottish by the time he leaves. As someone who grew up in Aus but has lived in the UK for the past 15 years I’ve certainly changed over time and have a deeper connection to my Scottish roots. I still have an Aussie accent though so no one believes I am Scottish. We live in an increasingly multi cultural world and the hardline fans who believe a country must have its own born and raised players have a weaker and weaker argument as the game evolves.