Scotland World Cup buildup

First topic message reminder :

Scotland v Italy
Saturday 29 July

Scotland v France
Saturday 5 August

France v Scotland
Saturday 12 August

Scotland v Georgia
Saturday 26 August

I think it's only fair to start another thread for this topic because I can see it being a popular topic in terms of discussion .

First things first is that 3 wins from 5 and a 3rd place finish probably exceeded expectations because most would have said 2 wins and the 4th place win, the one that most would have called was England to beat us as they were at home so imho we certainly deserve enormous credit for that one because we played very well against an England team that also had their moments, in fact I could already see improvements from the Eddie Jones era during that game and until DVDM clinched it at the death, I was still pretty worried we wouldn't win so was understandably over the moon that we did win.

The Wales and Italy matches were mixed bags tbh but we did get 5pts from both which was crucial, the Welsh game we didn't really perform first half and were in fact fortunate to go in at half time ahead but second half we were excellent and deserved the bonus point win.  The Italy game was a mixed bag in terms of; we had patches where we did well and others where we were hanging on, such as the last 2mins, I also felt that in that game our top centre pairing of Huwipulotu were quiet in attack though DVDM was a bit more involved that he had been in the previous few weeks before.

The France game was bloody frustrating because we showed glimpses of how well we can play especially in the second half for large parts but we were guilty of missing key opportunities and indiscipline from the captain of all people was our undoing which is where the frustration comes because as fans, we expect our captain to know what the ref will tolerate in terms of backchat!

The Ireland game was a game of 2 halfs, in the first half we were going toe to toe with them, it was probably the best we've played against them in a very long time; second half was a completely different story, we basically just capitalutated and handed the game to them with basic errors and more stupid indiscipline.

In terms of the coach, I have made my feelings known and really hope that the situation is resolved by at least mid to late April as we really need clarity on the situation!

Finally, for the summer warm up matches I'd like to see fringe players like Cameron Henderson, Ben Healy, Stafford McDowall, Kyle Rowe and Ollie Smith get some game time to see what they can offer either at the world cup (unlikely) or next 6N in 2024 .

I'd much rather players didn't pretend nationality. Tim Visser was the same - grateful for a chance to play ( almost) top flight rugby. I much prefer that to wrapping themselves in the flag and then sodding off back a soon as their playing career is over. I would prefer people to make Scotland their home however

4 Scots featuring at Twickenham at the weekend: Mitch Eadie and Dylan Richardson are starting for the Barbarians against Manu Samoa, Steven Longwell (Jersey) and Damien Hoyland are on the bench..

Richardson will be eligible to revert to South Africa in a little over a year!

Interesting trivia question:
How many players or coaches can you name that, having started in the Scottish international set-up then moved to the South African international team?

I can think of 3..

Mcsweens wrote:4 Scots featuring at Twickenham at the weekend: Mitch Eadie and Dylan Richardson are starting for the Barbarians against Manu Samoa, Steven Longwell (Jersey) and Damien Hoyland are on the bench..

Richardson will be eligible to revert to South Africa in a little over a year!

Richardson has really been the forgotten man after a pretty promising debut he has just faded away. I think injuries have been a major factor in that but also he struggles to get game time at the Sharks if Kolisi is fit. Maybe that will change now that he is moving to racing next season.

You do suspect though that he needs to move over to Scotland to really put himself in the shop window. He certainly is a good player though but I can't see him getting back into the Boks setup. It is not like they are short of decent backrows.

I thought Richardson had been injured quite a bit and, from a Scotland perspective, Darge came storming through and Dempsey took a bench spot. Competing with Christie, Bayliss and Crosbie for the last spot in the squad

I am guessing if Richardson can stay fit and Watson decides to retire from international duty after the RWC, he has a shot to make the next Six Nations. Might be a nice alternative option for the seven jersey if Darge and/or Crosbie are unavailable for whatever reason

Mcsweens wrote:Interesting trivia question:
How many players or coaches can you name that, having started in the Scottish international set-up then moved to the South African international team?

I can think of 3..

John Allan and Andrew Aitken

For Ireland there have also been a few, Jean Kleyn, Jack Gage and John Robbie.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Mcsweens wrote:Interesting trivia question:
How many players or coaches can you name that, having started in the Scottish international set-up then moved to the South African international team?

I can think of 3..

John Allan and Andrew Aitken

For Ireland there have also been a few, Jean Kleyn, Jack Gage and John Robbie.

I didn't know Andrew Aitken - what an interesting guy.

I had John Allan (Tomasso's uncle), Matt Proudfoot, and Richie Gray (the Richie Gray of Gala, Scotland A and also of the Miami Dolphins).

I had been aware of John Robbie from his radio show, and from the fact that after a Lions tour in South Africa the country had made such an impression on him that he essentially just stayed behind, and moved permanently shortly afterwards.

BigGee wrote:

Mcsweens wrote:4 Scots featuring at Twickenham at the weekend: Mitch Eadie and Dylan Richardson are starting for the Barbarians against Manu Samoa, Steven Longwell (Jersey) and Damien Hoyland are on the bench..

Richardson will be eligible to revert to South Africa in a little over a year!

Richardson has really been the forgotten man after a pretty promising debut he has just faded away. I think injuries have been a major factor in that but also he struggles to get game time at the Sharks if Kolisi is fit. Maybe that will change now that he is moving to racing next season.

You do suspect though that he needs to move over to Scotland to really put himself in the shop window. He certainly is a good player though but I can't see him getting back into the Boks setup. It is not like they are short of decent backrows.

If he's settled in South Africa the travel time and disruption involved in getting back over for training blocks at Oriam might not be the biggest draw. He's still only 24 so his ceiling is still high. Looking forward to seeing how he's doing on Saturday.

Hello all.

Settled into Riyadh now instead of Dubai. Just to confirm a popular rumour - Saudis are generally lovely, family orientated people. My own family to the new house in Cambridge and we'll see if anyone misses me. Mrs GC only will when she realises she needs to take the rubbish out instead.

The Farrell thing is very unfortunate for everyone. The incident happened in the week prior to picking the squads and so attracted laser focus from the entire sporting press clowncar. World Rugby had no choice but to appeal this - if they didn't then they Don't Support Their Referees and/or Don't Give a Sh!t About Player Welfare. I don't think that WR actually care about what the result is.

I do feel sorry for Farrell - it's certainly unacceptable to start making comments about his personality because of a series of mistimed tackles. He certainly didn't set out to hurt anyone - he's not the step-child of Danny Grewcock and Judy Murray. Probably. At the same time, the subjectivity is killing WR's credibility. Maybe the right hand shouldn't have given Tonga’s George Moala a 10 week ban for a first offense tip tackle in the same week as the left hand let Farrell off.

The other thing that I presume we're not allowed to talk about it is the unfortunate truth that if Faz was more, well, likeable - fewer people would have been so angry. Cannot imagine the same levels of bile for N'tmack, Russell, Moana, Ford or Carberry.

I must say this process has achieved the impossible: me feeling a tad sorry for Owen Farrell. Whilst I thought it was a red card, the footage is there for everyone to see and frankly it should take less than 5 minutes to reach a final conclusion, yet apparently it could be next week, over 10 days after the actual game. Madness.

Good luck in Riyadh GC. Having the family stashed away in Cambridge whilst living the ex pat life in some tax haven is high on my fantasy list.

Speaking of fantasies, I had a mate ring the other night offering a ticket to the South Africa game. Well, since Ryanair offer a direct flight from the Greatest City In The World to Marseilles it would be rude not to. Which means I'll be at both the SA and Ireland games. Just wanted to share that. It's Mrs fES' birthday the day before, so this will hurt, but if we can somehow beat the Bok it will be worth it....I hope....

funnyExiledScot wrote:I must say this process has achieved the impossible: me feeling a tad sorry for Owen Farrell. Whilst I thought it was a red card, the  footage is there for everyone to see and frankly it should take less than 5 minutes to reach a final conclusion, yet apparently it could be next week, over 10 days after the actual game. Madness.

Good luck in Riyadh GC. Having the family stashed away in Cambridge whilst living the ex pat life in some tax haven is high on my fantasy list.

Speaking of fantasies, I had a mate ring the other night offering a ticket to the South Africa game. Well, since Ryanair offer a direct flight from the Greatest City In The World to Marseilles it would be rude not to. Which means I'll be at both the SA and Ireland games. Just wanted to share that. It's Mrs fES' birthday the day before, so this will hurt, but if we can somehow beat the Bok it will be worth it....I hope....

I've gone the other way O festering One. No summer JollyHols for Mrs Pip this year; we're taking the family (including grandkids) to worship at the High Altar of Free Market Capitalism aka MickeyMouseCastle!!!! next year. As a consolation I surprised her by booking a week in a quaint Fisherman's Cottage on the harbourside in a picturesque Cornwall town. You should have seen her face light up when I told her we would arrive the day before the Scotland v Boks match.

George Carlin wrote:Hello all.

Settled into Riyadh now instead of Dubai. Just to confirm a popular rumour - Saudis are generally lovely, family orientated people. My own family to the new house in Cambridge and we'll see if anyone misses me. Mrs GC only will when she realises she needs to take the rubbish out instead.

The Farrell thing is very unfortunate for everyone. The incident happened in the week prior to picking the squads and so attracted laser focus from the entire sporting press clowncar. World Rugby had no choice but to appeal this - if they didn't then they Don't Support Their Referees and/or Don't Give a Sh!t About Player Welfare. I don't think that WR actually care about what the result is.

I do feel sorry for Farrell - it's certainly unacceptable to start making comments about his personality because of a series of mistimed tackles. He certainly didn't set out to hurt anyone - he's not the step-child of Danny Grewcock and Judy Murray. Probably. At the same time, the subjectivity is killing WR's credibility. Maybe the right hand shouldn't have given Tonga’s George Moala a 10 week ban for a first offense tip tackle in the same week as the left hand let Farrell off.

The other thing that I presume we're not allowed to talk about it is the unfortunate truth that if Faz was more, well, likeable - fewer people would have been so angry. Cannot imagine the same levels of bile for N'tmack, Russell, Moana, Ford or Carberry.

Sounds like you've made the leap that you were debating about a while ago. Hope it all works out as planned.

Also hope Saudi TV stations are showing the World Cup!

Also, we seem to have missed the most important question from the squad announcement.

Wtf was going on with Townsend's shoes??

I hadn't noticed them...is he channelling his inner Clancy?

Romanian lock just got a red card

Well one thing is for sure, world rugby need to do the World Cup draws at least a year later than they do currently.

Having us, SA and Ireland in the same group is showing to be more and more ludicrous as these warm ups go on.

Been saying that for years as it's not the first time we've ended up with unbalanced groups like this ...

RDW wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Hello all.

Settled into Riyadh now instead of Dubai. Just to confirm a popular rumour - Saudis are generally lovely, family orientated people. My own family to the new house in Cambridge and we'll see if anyone misses me. Mrs GC only will when she realises she needs to take the rubbish out instead.

The Farrell thing is very unfortunate for everyone. The incident happened in the week prior to picking the squads and so attracted laser focus from the entire sporting press clowncar. World Rugby had no choice but to appeal this - if they didn't then they Don't Support Their Referees and/or Don't Give a Sh!t About Player Welfare. I don't think that WR actually care about what the result is.

I do feel sorry for Farrell - it's certainly unacceptable to start making comments about his personality because of a series of mistimed tackles. He certainly didn't set out to hurt anyone - he's not the step-child of Danny Grewcock and Judy Murray. Probably. At the same time, the subjectivity is killing WR's credibility. Maybe the right hand shouldn't have given Tonga’s George Moala a 10 week ban for a first offense tip tackle in the same week as the left hand let Farrell off.

The other thing that I presume we're not allowed to talk about it is the unfortunate truth that if Faz was more, well, likeable - fewer people would have been so angry. Cannot imagine the same levels of bile for N'tmack, Russell, Moana, Ford or Carberry.

Sounds like you've made the leap that you were debating about a while ago. Hope it all works out as planned.

Also hope Saudi TV stations are showing the World Cup!

Thanks for the good wishes, all. Definitely will be watching this tournament. The TV system I have is experimental but essentially shows everything I want to see....

George Carlin wrote:

Ireland winning the world cup wouldnt sit well with John Barclay

In one of the more random coaching appointments, Scottish women have added Matt Banahan to their coaching team...

What they say is so true,

Even if we do manage to crawl out of our group, what kind of damage will playing Ireland, SA and Tonga have done to us? Would we be able to get 15 fit players on the park to play France or NZ!

The same does of course apply to the other teams in our group, it is hard to see anyone making it out without taking some battering, though obviously France and SA do have a greater depth than us.

The draw has been bonkers!

Four weeks for No Arms. But they're counting the Ireland match which he wasn't selected for so it's three. He'll miss the Fiji match and the first two pool games.
Scandalous really.

Still means he misses England's two hardest pool games. May be too late by the time he is available, assuming Borthwick still takes him - which I'm sure he will.
4 games still feels light.
Billy will probably get 3 as it's his first red card offence. A more difficult decision for Borthwick as BV is a notoriously poor trainer. He needs to play to get match fit. If he isn't available until the Japan game he will have lost the , admittedly not very impressive current fitness level, and find it very hard to keep up with the pace of their Japanese opponents. So, is there any point in still taking him?

jimbopip wrote:Four weeks for No Arms. But they're counting the Ireland match which he wasn't selected for so it's three. He'll miss the Fiji match and the first two pool games.
Scandalous really.

Yes, the number of games is a fudge in itself. If Borthwick didn't select him or (as England claims) Farrell chose not to play, then how can he have been 'banned' for the Ireland game?

Feel sorry for England fans - the last thing you want going into this tournament.

Losing Faz may actually make England better as Smith can get the backline going.

If they lose Large Billy V on the other hand, then it's just plain and simply terrible for them.

The whole thing is a clusterfudge. If the right decision has been made in the first instance i.e. the one they ended up with, things would be fine. As it is, its been an absolute farce, Farrell has been given abuse by fans for an appeal system that isn't his fault, the RFU look like hypocrites for backing player safety but also backing a star player "getting away with it", something Ford 'let slip' (can't imagine why he would stir the pot against a rival for the 10 shirt...) and last but not least world rugby/six nations look like rank amateurs in a professional sport for constantly undermining themselves.

World rugby need to centralise the appeals process and have the panel made up of current and retired referees (who get additional pay for this). In addition, they should ban lawyers speaking on behalf of the players OR world rugby should supply them. The RFU have cash to splash to get their players out of trouble. Tonga didn't and George Moala get a very harsh 10 weeks. So either get rid of union paid lawyers or World rugby supplies them.

jimbopip wrote:Four weeks for No Arms. But they're counting the Ireland match which he wasn't selected for so it's three. He'll miss the Fiji match and the first two pool games.
Scandalous really.

I think its perfect actually. Borthwick now has to balance minimal game time for his captain whilst justifying bringing him along for the whole tournament. Meanwhile, Ford and Smith will be thinking "we've only been picked because the captain has been banned" and as soon as Farrell is free to play they will be dropped no matter how well they get the backline ticking. If farrell comes back in and theres a drop in performance just imagine the impact on Ford/Smith and the impact on the team as a whole.

Its wonderful.

World rugby could come out and state the system is still a work in progress, these are teething errors and stepping in to appeal the panel decision was the correct course of action. Sadly they seem pretty sheepish and unable to quell the growing toxicity among certain fans aimed at players, coaches and unions. The World Cup is a great opportunity to unite the rugby community and show that player welfare is the top priority moving forward.

I think part of the problem relied on judgement from some former Ozzie players from the 90s/early 00s - how up to date is their thinking on this? do they believe in world rugbys message about a safer game? If they are too far removed and are easily swayed by extreme technicalities because they think the hit would have been fine back in their day, is their opinion even relevant?

Get current high level referees on these panels. Not only do they understand the laws and the technicalities of the game but they have good judgement on how players react in a live situation.

Rugby being so wedded to former players and "jobs for the boys" causes issues all over the place. From highest levels of administration, right down to punditry.

From talking to a journalist pal that has been working on a long term piece about the concussion lawsuit it is apparently one awkward issue lawyers keep running into when discussing the boards defence. The lawsuit will obviously be claiming that given the findings of earlier research into concussion in other sports, shouldn't rugby have been far more proactive with looking into it? The most common defence that immediately springs to mind for the scholars that run the game is apparently, "well our chairmen are generally former rugby players, not scientists or doctors!" Which of course begs the question, why the f*** are blokes in charge of structures this complex because they were good at rugby in their twenties?

That doesn't mean there can't be former players who are incredibly intelligent and can become brilliant administrators, refs, pundits, etc post retirement. Being good at running into people when you were young is far from an indicator of genius though. Rugby, like many sports, would benefit from realising that.

Team's oot for the weekend.
Ollie Smith at 15 and Sam Skinner at 4. "Mon Cheri" at 2 for added sex appeal.

Please take Finn off at halftime Mr Townsend. Please.

15. Ollie Smith (Glasgow Warriors) 5 caps
14. Darcy Graham (Edinburgh Rugby) 35 caps
13. Huw Jones (Glasgow Warriors) 38 caps
12. Sione Tuipulotu (Glasgow Warriors) 18 caps
11. Duhan van der Merwe (Edinburgh Rugby) 30 caps

10. Finn Russell (Bath Rugby) – Vice-Captain – 71 caps
9. Ben White (Toulon) 15 caps

1. Jamie Bhatti (Glasgow Warriors) 31 caps
2. Dave Cherry (Edinburgh Rugby) 9 caps
3. WP Nel (Edinburgh Rugby) 55 caps
4. Sam Skinner (Edinburgh Rugby) 27 caps
5. Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh Rugby) – Vice-captain – 64 caps
6. Jamie Ritchie (Edinburgh Rugby) – Captain – 42 caps
7. Rory Darge (Glasgow Warriors) 10 caps
8. Jack Dempsey (Glasgow Warriors) 11 caps

Replacements

16. Ewan Ashman (Edinburgh Rugby) 8 caps
17. Rory Sutherland (unattached) 25 caps
18. Javan Sebastian (Edinburgh Rugby) 5 caps
19. Scott Cummings (Glasgow Warriors) 28 caps
20. Matt Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) 35 caps
21. George Horne (Glasgow Warriors) 22 caps
22. Ben Healy (Edinburgh Rugby) 2 caps
23. Chris Harris (Gloucester Rugby) 43 caps

Fully loaded.

The Giant Sumpf is back at 5.

I understand that you build cohesion through games but surely it's not worth risking injury to some of these players? Why not just give Healy a full 80?

Feels strange to see Russell is by some distance the most experienced player in the squad. But of course this will be his 3rd World Cup now, despite always seeming like a breath of fresh air.

Guys!Guys!!
There is a Georgia match thread already.
If you look you shall find.

Not rugby related at all, but I hope you all saw Jake Kerr (now back playing in the Super 6) brother Josh Kerr, wun the 1500m in the World Athletics Champs last night, a simply stunning performance.

After Jake Wightman last year, the current and previous champions are both Scottish. Who hsve imagined that!

BigGee wrote:Not rugby related at all, but I hope you all saw Jake Kerr (now back playing in the Super 6) brother Josh Kerr, wun the 1500m in the World Athletics Champs last night, a simply stunning performance.

After Jake Wightman last year, the current and previous champions are both Scottish. Who hsve imagined that!

They run/ran for the same Athletics club in Edinburgh too.

I just watched that, when I realised what it was. Glad the Norwegian fella lost anyway, but even better it was to a Brit. Lovely stuff.

One thing I would say is that whilst the draw could not be worse in terms of the specific teams (more so than any other teams in the world South Africa and Ireland seem uniquely well placed to negate our style of play), it is actually very very good in terms of timetabling.

We have South Africa first up and then two weeks before Tonga. Tonga are good but I still think our Second XV would be able to see them off relatively comfortably. Not that I am advocating a full Second XV but ultimately I think Scotland can afford to be cautious with players carrying niggles on from South Africa if there are any. That being said, Tonga will probably be targeting Scotland to avoid having to qualify next time around.

We should be able to beat Romania without any frontliners, which would give the full strength side two weeks (20-30 minutes against Romania off the bench aside) to prepare for Ireland.

If we have managed to achieve the impossible and beaten the world champions first up then (depending on other results) Toonie could even go full Frank Hadden and go for a weakened team against Ireland.

I think World Rugby have decided to alter the pool selection process going forward. FIFA did the draw for the last Football World Cup in April 2022, so 8 months before the tournament kicks off. The equivalent in rugby would be just before the Six Nations in a world cup year which seems by far the fairest time going forward as it takes into account the most recent inter-hemisphere and inter-tier games. Italy, for example, are stuck in the mid-teens as a consequence of playing mainly Tier One opposition so it may encourage lower ranked tier 1 sides to play lower ranked teams in order to consolidate their ranking.

Had the teams been seeded in Jan 2023 the top seeds would be France, New Zealand, SA, Ireland. The second pot would be Scotland, England, Argentina, Australia. The third would be Wales, Japan, Samoa, Italy. That is almost entirely the same as today except Pot 3 has been utterly skewed by Italy only playing Tier 1 countries for the last 9 months aside from Romania who they humped and Japan up next.

It’s on boys

We get out the group and if we face New Zealand I don’t fear them at all (based on this performance)

NZ were as good as Italy.

I don't like it...too many things going in our favour.
We're doomed . Doomed I say.

So! Ireland have peaked early...as usual.
The Boks have decided to copy them.
The Blackness are woeful.
We'll win our group and lose to Italy due to overconfidence.

Feck me that was a frightening SA performance. Unrelenting power and an ability to open up and cut teams to shreds.

How can we match that?

We're definitely doomed!

I feel the same way RDW, the SA first choice pack is incredible.

I only saw the very short sky highlights that gives zero context on the game, however it did seem like the AB’s were some way off the pace. Hopefully Scotland will be sharper when their turn comes.

Surely the Boks will put out a ladies third XV against us?

We stand a chance then.

I think the Tombola has been hacked.

So, here's Toonie's , not too well concealed master plan:
South of France-late summer-hard pitches -hot dry weather- Boks will put out a big, heavy pack-run them around till they're cream crackered-score lots of tries in the last twenty-win the game.
SIMPLES.

So...a 7:! split?

It looks to me like:
we'll stat with our monster pack
we'll keep it tight and play 10 man rugby for 40 minutes
we'll replace 7/8ths of our pack at half time
we'll play 10 man rugby for the next 40 minutes.
we won't need backs replacements because they won't be doing enough to work up a sweat out in the empty spaces out wide
we'll grind your puny pack into the Mediterranean dust.

It is so regressive that it is utterly trailblazing.

I think we should refuse to play the boks because they look too scary. Give them a walkover and save ourselves for ireland.

jimbopip wrote:I think the Tombola has been hacked.

So, here's Toonie's , not too well concealed master plan:
South of France-late summer-hard pitches -hot dry weather- Boks will put out a big, heavy pack-run them around till they're cream crackered-score lots of tries in the last twenty-win the game.
SIMPLES.

So...a 7:! split?

It looks to me like:
we'll stat with our monster pack
we'll keep it tight and play 10 man rugby for 40 minutes
we'll replace 7/8ths of our pack at half time
we'll play 10 man rugby for the next 40 minutes.
we won't need backs replacements because they won't be doing enough to work up a sweat out in the empty spaces out wide
we'll grind your puny pack into the Mediterranean dust.

It is so regressive that it is utterly trailblazing.

You want to copy England's tactics? Or is it England's strategy? I are be confused.

doctor_grey wrote:

jimbopip wrote:I think the Tombola has been hacked.

So, here's Toonie's , not too well concealed master plan:
South of France-late summer-hard pitches -hot dry weather- Boks will put out a big, heavy pack-run them around till they're cream crackered-score lots of tries in the last twenty-win the game.
SIMPLES.

So...a 7:! split?

It looks to me like:
we'll stat with our monster pack
we'll keep it tight and play 10 man rugby for 40 minutes
we'll replace 7/8ths of our pack at half time
we'll play 10 man rugby for the next 40 minutes.
we won't need backs replacements because they won't be doing enough to work up a sweat out in the empty spaces out wide
we'll grind your puny pack into the Mediterranean dust.

It is so regressive that it is utterly trailblazing.

You want to copy England's tactics?  Or is it England's strategy?  I are be confused.

Doc, i was once sat in a staff meeting while the Headteacher rambled on about some thrilling new educational initiative was should all embrace and strive to implement. I turned to an older and wiser colleague and asked if he shared my sense of deja vu. "Jimbo, I learned years ago that if you stand still long enough you become an innovator."

It is so regressive that it is utterly trailblazing.