England's Summer of Cricket 2023, Featuring The Ashes

by Duty281 Tue 21 Mar 2023, 1:12 pm

First topic message reminder :

June 1st-June 4th: One Test v Ireland (four days)
June 16th-July 31st: Five Tests v Australia
August 30th-September 5th: Four T20s v New Zealand
September 8th-September 15th: Four ODIs v New Zealand
September 20th-September 26th: Three ODIs v Ireland

England try to wrest the Ashes back from Australia, in a series which could be the greatest since 2005. Australia have currently held the urn for just over five years, which is the longest spell of urn-holding since the 1989-2005 period.

Ireland also visit for a test before that, and then there's some limited-overs games squashed into the last days of summer.

by eirebilly_01 Wed 07 Jun 2023, 9:21 am

Still cannot believe that Moeen Ali is in the squad. This really is a backward step by Stokes and McCullum. Granted its their first backward step.

by Duty281 Wed 07 Jun 2023, 10:23 am

Grim news, but entirely unexpected. I wonder if Moeen will be backed through the series, like Zak Crawley, or the selectors will see sense part way through? Also a very short-term move and sends out a terrible message. Rehan Ahmed, for instance, may as well not bother playing county cricket if he wants to play in the test team, as it seems you don't need to.

I presume they haven't brought him back to be a squad player, so Moeen at 8 for Edgbaston, with Woakes/Broad/Wood at 9, Robinson at 10 and Anderson at 11. I'd still go with Woakes as that third seamer choice.

by guildfordbat Wed 07 Jun 2023, 10:40 am

king_carlos wrote:This is such a bizarre series to predict.

Warner could get runs, finally win that Ashes in England and have the swansong he wants against Pakistan. Or maybe he gets dumped after the WTC or T1.

England could have some fitness luck with the seamers from here and end up only picking from Anderson, Broad, Robinson, Wood and Woakes. Equally I wouldn't be amazed if we saw a return to multiple bowling allrounders by the series end as they try to plug the gap left by Stokes being unable to bowl. Seeing 7.Moeen 8.Surran 9.Woakes at some point in a 5 Test series really wouldn't astonish from where we are currently sitting. Nor would more injuries resulting in Tongue or Potts featuring amaze me.

Is Stokes fit enough to bat let alone bowl? Will Boland's skills transfer to the Dukes and English conditions? Can Hazelwood play many Tests? The same for Anderson and Robinson? Are Neser's excellent F-C skills transferrable to flatter pitches? Will we even get flatter pitches in reality? How big is Cameron Green? Will Travis Head take his outstanding home form into away Tests? Can Mo still hold a cricket ball when it's red? As England get more injuries does Cam Green actually get bigger? Can Bairstow rediscover his preinjury form with the bat? Can he then do that with the gloves? Will Duty need more therapy to deal with Crawley being persevered with or Mo getting recalled? Is the Ashes still a big deal for world cricket or is this just the last remnants of crickets two fading former superpowers desperately clinging to its glory years? Do I need to deal with my insomnia in a more mature manner than writing this sleep deprived rambling mind vomit? Will any of KP fans

78 daily prediction come true? Will Stuart Broad actually bowl an outswinger?

I genuinely have no idea what to expect.

Hi Carlos - Wonderful post although when coupled with your other cracker about semi forgotten Surrey players from early this century, boy oh boy, you do need a sleep therearapist. Wink

PS You and your dad are spot on about Nayan Doshi being born too early.

by alfie Wed 07 Jun 2023, 11:57 am

So Moeen is back...

Really hope he is absolutely sure about this and not just feeling obligated to answer an appeal. And that he has a decent first game because otherwise I could see him falling apart again. I am sure the Aussies will go hard at him from the start to try and demolish his often fragile confidence so that first spell might be very significant for the series.

I am very uneasy about this because if he doesn't fire I'm blowed if I can see where they will turn. They have delivered a fair old slap in the face to any of the aspiring candidate who are actually playing red ball cricket so is it Moeen or no one ?

As to whether he could do a job (not as a destroyer , but as a reasonable backup to the pace men) : I have to wonder , because he has not played long form cricket for ages - and indeed hasn't bowled an awful lot lately even with the white ball. It really is a leap of faith - or just plain desperation !

by guildfordbat Wed 07 Jun 2023, 12:33 pm

alfie wrote:So Moeen is back...

Really hope he is absolutely sure about this and not just feeling obligated to answer an appeal. And that he has a decent first game because otherwise I could see him falling apart again. I am sure the Aussies will go hard at him from the start to try and demolish his often fragile confidence so that first spell might be very significant for the series.

I am very uneasy about this because if he doesn't fire I'm blowed if I can see where they will turn. They have delivered a fair old slap in the face to any of the aspiring candidate who are actually playing red ball cricket so is it Moeen or no one ?

As to whether he could do a job (not as a destroyer , but as a reasonable backup to the pace men) : I have to wonder , because he has not played long form cricket for ages - and indeed hasn't bowled an awful lot lately even with the white ball. It really is a leap of faith - or just plain desperation

Hi Alfie - characteristically fair and reasonable assessment. However, and apologies if I've missed it whilst away but who or what is your solution to the absent Leach?

by alfie Wed 07 Jun 2023, 12:47 pm

Haha , Guildford ...I wish I had a neat solution ! Not sure there is one guaranteed to work ; but I would have been tempted to use Dawson first up as a fairly experienced fellow who can both bat a bit and usually bowl without sending down too many pies. Like for Like with Leach I guess.

Looking ahead I'd be considering Ahmed - and wouldn't rule out Bess - but since neither have been exactly ripping through county opposition yet this season I'm not sure throwing one of them in against Australia in June would be a great idea.

If they are going with Moeen as an "add to batting option" , maybe even Jacks ? He did take six wickets in Rawalpindi ...

I am actually open to a four seamer attack for the first match unless the conditions scream '"no ! ".

by king_carlos Wed 07 Jun 2023, 12:53 pm

Duty281 wrote:Also a very short-term move and sends out a terrible message. Rehan Ahmed, for instance, may as well not bother playing county cricket if he wants to play in the test team, as it seems you don't need to.

As said previously I don't hate Moeen being back in the squads though personally would probably go with Dawson just ahead of him as I think a holding spinner would better complement how our seamers are now bowling.

This argument often comes up though around young players being discouraged from playing F-C cricket when players are picked without recent red ball game time. Moeen is an experienced red ball player though being the vital difference. He's played 135 non-Test F-C games. As mentioned previously on this thread that's more than double the F-C games Glenn McGrath played in his career. Also more than double Smudge's non-Test red ball experience. Then 64 Tests on top of it. Whether you love or loathe Mo as a Test spinner he has done his time learning to play red ball cricket.

Rehan on the other hand has only played 10 F-C games in his career including his Test debut.

by Duty281 Wed 07 Jun 2023, 6:06 pm

Anyone else a bit more concerned about England's chances after how Smith and Head played today?

by VTR Wed 07 Jun 2023, 7:16 pm

Duty281 wrote:Anyone else a bit more concerned about England's chances after how Smith and Head played today?

Yep, this is the fear if we really do get those flat pitches

by king_carlos Wed 07 Jun 2023, 7:55 pm

I definitely get apprehensive when seeing Smudge make runs. The ghost of 2019s past.

By and large I think we saw what you'd expect from Head though. A few wild play and misses early on but when the sun came out he really cashed in. He's an extremely talented stroke player.

If they go with flat and fast pitches there will definitely be spells for both sides where the respective middle orders should be able to cash in and score quickly.

The worry for me remains Marnus and Smith having the ability to fight through those tough spells early on. Plus the Aussies having more fast and tall bowlers, plus an allrounder who can bowl, to keep exerting pressure better when it flattens out.

by alfie Wed 07 Jun 2023, 10:07 pm

Didn't sit up to the end but not surprised top see that scoreline. Once Head got into full flow and Smith was ...being Smith...I felt India were in big trouble. Likely regretting now going without Ashwin and choosing to field first.

Of course it is a bit early to be too full on with predictions (see both teams bat , etc) but it does look as if India will be chasing upwards of 500 ; so unless someone is going to play a Pant innings it will be tough for them to set up a winning chance from here. Will they be looking to bat long and hope for a draw ? Or can the aging but massively experienced trio at 3-5 conjure some magic when they get in and turn the game on its head ? You'd think this pitch will be pretty good for batting for the next couple of days so we might yet see two big innings and a battle for either side to get a result over the last couple...lots to speculate about.

But I know which dressing room will be happier tonight .

Oh bother I am on the wrong thread with this picard

Ah never mind. All one season and all connected in a way. Haven't woken up properly yet ...

by Duty281 Wed 07 Jun 2023, 10:15 pm

king_carlos wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Also a very short-term move and sends out a terrible message. Rehan Ahmed, for instance, may as well not bother playing county cricket if he wants to play in the test team, as it seems you don't need to.
As said previously I don't hate Moeen being back in the squads though personally would probably go with Dawson just ahead of him as I think a holding spinner would better complement how our seamers are now bowling.

This argument often comes up though around young players being discouraged from playing F-C cricket when players are picked without recent red ball game time. Moeen is an experienced red ball player though being the vital difference. He's played 135 non-Test F-C games. As mentioned previously on this thread that's more than double the F-C games Glenn McGrath played in his career. Also more than double Smudge's non-Test red ball experience. Then 64 Tests on top of it. Whether you love or loathe Mo as a Test spinner he has done his time learning to play red ball cricket.

Rehan on the other hand has only played 10 F-C games in his career including his Test debut.

Moeen is experienced, but the issue is he's been out of the red ball game for so long, so bowling spells of a few overs or more is something he's going to be out of touch with, as is building an innings. It doesn't matter whether you've played 10 or 10,000 FC games; if a player has been out of the red-ball game for as long as Moeen it will take him time to adjust and get back in the loop.

It took Moeen 9 and a half seasons of FC cricket before he made his England debut, whereas I think McGrath made his test debut in his second FC season, so I'm not surprised there's a disparity there.

It's a terrible call to bring Moeen back. It's even worse than retaining Crawley.

by Duty281 Wed 07 Jun 2023, 10:19 pm

VTR wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Anyone else a bit more concerned about England's chances after how Smith and Head played today?
Yep, this is the fear if we really do get those flat pitches

I'm thinking more and more that England are going to play Tongue or Wood in every Ashes test, so they'll get two or three tests each. Trying to envisage a scenario where Australia are 150/2 after 40 overs, Smith and Labuschagne are settled, the wicket's not doing much and the sun's out... three 75-85mph bowlers + Moeen bowling lobs + Stokes hobbling in + Root's part-time tweaks...it's not going to cut it in that scenario.

by alfie Wed 07 Jun 2023, 10:32 pm

Duty281 wrote:
VTR wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Anyone else a bit more concerned about England's chances after how Smith and Head played today?
Yep, this is the fear if we really do get those flat pitches

I'm thinking more and more that England are going to play Tongue or Wood in every Ashes test, so they'll get two or three tests each. Trying to envisage a scenario where Australia are 150/2 after 40 overs, Smith and Labuschagne are settled, the wicket's not doing much and the sun's out... three 75-85mph bowlers + Moeen bowling lobs + Stokes hobbling in + Root's part-time tweaks...it's not going to cut it in that scenario.

Have felt all along that really flat pitches seems a daft idea against Australia. I know England have prospered on such lately ; but continuing to do so against the Australian attack might be a little trickier... and the likes of Smith , Head etc are accustomed to batting big - as we are seeing in this WTC final.

But what do I know ? Baz and Ben haven't got much wrong so far. Do think we will see one of the fast men in most if not all the Tests ; but hoping we get a bit more of a variety of surfaces just for the sake of interesting cricket whoever is on top...

by dummy_half Thu 08 Jun 2023, 10:03 am

I'm not as negative about the Moeen selection as others, at least under the circumstances we are facing - seems the least worst option in the short term, as if he fires under the freedom of Bazball, he would be a real asset.
Dawson, as the second coming of Ashley Giles, would be the other reasonably sensible choice.
I struggle to see what Livingstone or Jacks add to the bowling compared with Root, and Ahmed would be a big risk given his youth and inexperience, even if his potential upside is higher.
As others have noted, Bess seems to be developing into a batsman that bowls at Yorkshire - possibly at the wrong club and ground to develop as a slow bowler.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Thu 08 Jun 2023, 10:25 am

dummy_half wrote:I'm not as negative about the Moeen selection as others, at least under the circumstances we are facing - seems the least worst option in the short term, as if he fires under the freedom of Bazball, he would be a real asset.
Dawson, as the second coming of Ashley Giles, would be the other reasonably sensible choice.
I struggle to see what Livingstone or Jacks add to the bowling compared with Root, and Ahmed would be a big risk given his youth and inexperience, even if his potential upside is higher.
As others have noted, Bess seems to be developing into a batsman that bowls at Yorkshire - possibly at the wrong club and ground to develop as a slow bowler.

Think you've surmised this nicely Dummy - as exciting as it would be to see Ahmed play, throwing him to the Aussies for a whole summer at the drop of a hat, might turn out very badly for his future career prospects...no qualms with him getting a full summer of cricket under his belt with Leicestershire across formats, to continue to grow.
I think I'd have plumped for Dawson and like Alfie, even with Moeen picked I'd seriously consider the four man seam attack too.

But no real qualms with Moeen being brought back in - there is no ideal solution or option really, Mo probably the safest from the point they know what he can do, how he fits into the group, and you're not going to ruin a long term career if it goes badly (which, lets face it, is likely to happen with whatever spin option we picked - Leach was hardly a sure fire bet himself!)

by KP_fan Thu 08 Jun 2023, 12:04 pm

I see Ali is back and I think he is one injury ( to Stokes) away from being named the captain

by alfie Thu 08 Jun 2023, 12:47 pm

KP_fan wrote:I see Ali is back and I think he is one injury ( to Stokes) away from being named the captain

Not really. Pope is official VC for the series.

But you'd have to break Stokes' leg or something to get him off the field anyway.

by VTR Thu 08 Jun 2023, 1:33 pm

Yeah, captaincy us a bit of a stretch, let's see if he even makes the team first. You'll be telling us he's next in line for the throne at some point!

by KP_fan Thu 08 Jun 2023, 1:55 pm

VTR wrote:Yeah, captaincy us a bit of a stretch, let's see if he even makes the team first. You'll be telling us he's next in line for the throne at some point!

He doesn't have many fans here for sure...that's why someone called him Maligned Ali England's Summer of Cricket 2023, Featuring The Ashes - Page 7 1f601

Ali captained Eng in ODis in Pak so he is deemed leadership material.....and as I recall & was punters 2nd choice for test captaincy after Stokes, when Root quit

by Duty281 Thu 08 Jun 2023, 2:18 pm

Moeen will play the first two tests. Combined match figures of 2/141 (Economy 4.6) and he'll score 4, 21, 3 and 15 with the bat. England lose both tests. Moeen gets dropped. England win all three of the last tests.

KP_Fan will still argue Moeen was England's player of the series.

by Mind the windows Tino. Thu 08 Jun 2023, 2:29 pm

Duty281 wrote:

KP_Fan will still argue Moeen was England's player of the series.

Yes but he'll also have made at least 8 other separate posts proclaiming Stokes, Root, Pope, Broad, Anderson (delete as applicable) as player of the series.

by KP_fan Thu 08 Jun 2023, 2:41 pm

Duty281 wrote:Moeen will play the first two tests. Combined match figures of 2/141 (Economy 4.6) and he'll score 4, 21, 3 and 15 with the bat. England lose both tests. Moeen gets dropped. England win all three of the last tests.

KP_Fan will still argue Moeen was England's player of the series.

If I was Moeen I would have negotiated a guaranteed 5 tests ....barring injuries
I bet he has...and why not.....not too many greats of the game have been "Requested" by their national selectors to come out of retirement. He has a good negotiation leverage.

Reminder on that list are only
Bobby Simpson
Ray Ilingworth
Imran Khan

by Duty281 Thu 08 Jun 2023, 2:50 pm

Also, Paul Scholes is on that list. Capello tried to get him to come out of retirement just before the 2010 World Cup.

by guildfordbat Thu 08 Jun 2023, 3:01 pm

alfie wrote:
KP_fan wrote:I see Ali is back and I think he is one injury ( to Stokes) away from being named the captain

Not really. Pope is official VC for the series.

But you'd have to break Stokes' leg or something to get him off the field anyway.

Only one leg?

by king_carlos Thu 08 Jun 2023, 3:04 pm

Jason Robinson too.

Of course, legendary NZ rower Hamish Bond from the famed 'Kiwi pair' left rowing for a few years to become a cyclist and won a bronze at the commonwealth games in the time trial before being tempted back to rowing to win a 3rd gold medal in the coxed 8 at the delayed Tokyo Olympics.

The Lions coaches in 2013 wanted Jonny Wilkinson to come out of retirement but he simply didn't feel his body could cope with the rigours of full tour.

It's a fun game this.

by alfie Thu 08 Jun 2023, 3:20 pm

KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Moeen will play the first two tests. Combined match figures of 2/141 (Economy 4.6) and he'll score 4, 21, 3 and 15 with the bat. England lose both tests. Moeen gets dropped. England win all three of the last tests.

KP_Fan will still argue Moeen was England's player of the series.

If I was Moeen I would have negotiated a guaranteed 5 tests ....barring injuries
I bet he has...and why not.....not too many greats of the game have been "Requested" by their national selectors to come out of retirement. He has a good negotiation leverage.

Reminder on that list are only
Bobby Simpson
Ray Ilingworth
Imran Khan

I presume KP_fan is joking here...

I hope Moeen can make a useful contribution. But given that after a promising Ashes debut at Cardiff in 2015 ( match figures of 5/130 , and 77 with the bat ) he has played ten more matches against Australia for just fifteen - very expensive- wickets , and one score north of forty , I have my doubts that he should be inked in for the series in advance !

by guildfordbat Thu 08 Jun 2023, 3:52 pm

alfie wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Moeen will play the first two tests. Combined match figures of 2/141 (Economy 4.6) and he'll score 4, 21, 3 and 15 with the bat. England lose both tests. Moeen gets dropped. England win all three of the last tests.

KP_Fan will still argue Moeen was England's player of the series.

If I was Moeen I would have negotiated a guaranteed 5 tests ....barring injuries
I bet he has...and why not.....not too many greats of the game have been "Requested" by their national selectors to come out of retirement. He has a good negotiation leverage.

Reminder on that list are only
Bobby Simpson
Ray Ilingworth
Imran Khan

I presume KP_fan is joking here...

I hope Moeen can make a useful contribution. But given that after a promising Ashes debut at Cardiff in 2015 ( match figures of 5/130 , and 77 with the bat ) he has played ten more matches against Australia for just fifteen - very expensive- wickets , and one score north of forty , I have my doubts that he should be inked in for the series in advance !

Yep, with you there, Alfie.

Also, unsure about Ray Illingworth being on that list. Illy put his boots back on and played some one day games for Yorkshire when he was about 50 but I don't believe he ever came out of retirement to play for England.

by king_carlos Thu 08 Jun 2023, 4:13 pm

Boland's big strength being hitting one spot on the pitch with remarkable accuracy vs one of Bazball's big strengths in batting being how the England batters have varied where they stand to manipulate length is an interesting battle.

Both in terms of just changing their stances and advancing down the track a huge part of England's attacking strategy has clearly been trying to knock bowlers off a regular length. More and more batters are doing so too. Mitchell for NZ has some of the furthest forward contact points recorded. Whilst Bharat was up to the stumps when Marnus was batting yesterday as he was varying his stance similarly.

The obvious way to combat this is bringing the keeper up to the stumps. Blundell was even doing this to Matt Henry by the end of the recent NZ vs England series. Whether Carey would come up to the stumps to bowlers of the Aussies pace is another question though.

by guildfordbat Thu 08 Jun 2023, 4:45 pm

king_carlos wrote:Boland's big strength being hitting one spot on the pitch with remarkable accuracy vs one of Bazball's big strengths in batting being how the England batters have varied where they stand to manipulate length is an interesting battle.

Both in terms of just changing their stances and advancing down the track a huge part of England's attacking strategy has clearly been trying to knock bowlers off a regular length. More and more batters are doing so too. Mitchell for NZ has some of the furthest forward contact points recorded. Whilst Bharat was up to the stumps when Marnus was batting yesterday as he was varying his stance similarly.

The obvious way to combat this is bringing the keeper up to the stumps. Blundell was even doing this to Matt Henry by the end of the recent NZ vs England series. Whether Carey would come up to the stumps to bowlers of the Aussies pace is another question though.

It's been very noticeable that Pope has been doing this regularly when batting for Surrey this season. Although I didn't see his innings against Ireland, I always thought the most likely (perhaps the only) way he was going to be dismissed was stumped. Admittedly, it's not much of a problem if you've got a double ton by your name but I wouldn't be surprised if it reoccurs in the Ashes. Pope's county colleague Sean Abbott has been training recently as a reserve with Australia and will surely have flagged Pope's approach. Something I expect Carey to have been working on with Lyon and maybe also Cummins and Boland for the odd slower ball.

by king_carlos Thu 08 Jun 2023, 4:48 pm

It's something all England's batters other than Bairstow and Brook have done under McCullum. Some are actually advancing down the track - as you say Pope is doing this a lot. Some are just varying their stance from ball to ball - Duckett and Root are very proactive in this.

Bairstow prior to his leg injury was batting from the crease and Brook has as well. Maybe personal preference there as both have such power from that stable position. Or it could simply be that they were in such good touch during each respective run of form that they just stuck with what they knew.

by KP_fan Thu 08 Jun 2023, 5:39 pm

alfie wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Moeen will play the first two tests. Combined match figures of 2/141 (Economy 4.6) and he'll score 4, 21, 3 and 15 with the bat. England lose both tests. Moeen gets dropped. England win all three of the last tests.

KP_Fan will still argue Moeen was England's player of the series.

If I was Moeen I would have negotiated a guaranteed 5 tests ....barring injuries
I bet he has...and why not.....not too many greats of the game have been "Requested" by their national selectors to come out of retirement. He has a good negotiation leverage.

Reminder on that list are only
Bobby Simpson
Ray Ilingworth
Imran Khan

I presume KP_fan is joking here...

I hope Moeen can make a useful contribution. But given that after a promising Ashes debut at Cardiff in 2015 ( match figures of 5/130 , and 77 with the bat ) he has played ten more matches against Australia for just fifteen - very expensive- wickets , and one score north of forty , I have my doubts that he should be inked in for the series in advance !

You know what I think of Moeen & Eng's selectors agree with my view.....the most indispensable player in Eng England's Summer of Cricket 2023, Featuring The Ashes - Page 7 1f601

We know the general view of this forum is overly pessimistic of him
But in the end the validation of his worth comes from English selectors

by Duty281 Thu 08 Jun 2023, 5:44 pm

Most indispensable player, but wouldn't have played a game if Leach hadn't got injured. Laugh

by KP_fan Thu 08 Jun 2023, 5:46 pm

Duty281 wrote:Most indispensable player, but wouldn't have played a game if Leach hadn't got injured.

Leach may not have gotten a run had he not prematurely retired

by Duty281 Thu 08 Jun 2023, 5:50 pm

KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Most indispensable player, but wouldn't have played a game if Leach hadn't got injured.
Leach may not have gotten a run had he not prematurely retired

Eh? Leach was picked in the squad, Moeen wasn't, and neither was any other spinner. Leach was 99.99% going to start, until he got injured.

by KP_fan Thu 08 Jun 2023, 5:57 pm

Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Most indispensable player, but wouldn't have played a game if Leach hadn't got injured.
Leach may not have gotten a run had he not prematurely retired

Eh? Leach was picked in the squad, Moeen wasn't, and neither was any other spinner. Leach was 99.99% going to start, until he got injured.

Players are not picked if they have retired

by Duty281 Thu 08 Jun 2023, 5:59 pm

KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Most indispensable player, but wouldn't have played a game if Leach hadn't got injured.
Leach may not have gotten a run had he not prematurely retired

Eh? Leach was picked in the squad, Moeen wasn't, and neither was any other spinner. Leach was 99.99% going to start, until he got injured.

Players are not picked if they have retired

Yes, but Moeen was only asked to come out of retirement when Leach got injured. Not before. If he were so indispensable I'd have thought he would have been asked at the start of the summer.

by KP_fan Thu 08 Jun 2023, 6:03 pm

Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Most indispensable player, but wouldn't have played a game if Leach hadn't got injured.
Leach may not have gotten a run had he not prematurely retired

Eh? Leach was picked in the squad, Moeen wasn't, and neither was any other spinner. Leach was 99.99% going to start, until he got injured.

Players are not picked if they have retired

Yes, but Moeen was only asked to come out of retirement when Leach got injured. Not before. If he were so indispensable I'd have thought he would have been asked at the start of the summer.

Had Moeen not prematurely retired...Leach may not have had so many chances and not established himself

by king_carlos Thu 08 Jun 2023, 7:28 pm

Had Mo been around in the 70s and 80s would Beefy even be known for his beefiness? Maybe there's a parallel universe where he just got to be Ian. Maybe Beefy lies awake at night, staring at the ceiling and pondering what life as Ian could've been?

by guildfordbat Thu 08 Jun 2023, 7:40 pm

king_carlos wrote:Had Mo been around in the 70s and 80s would Beefy even be known for his beefiness? Maybe there's a parallel universe where he just got to be Ian. Maybe Beefy lies awake at night, staring at the ceiling and pondering what life as Ian could've been?

Probably 6 or 7 hours too early for you to be having such thoughts, Carlos?! Wink

by Duty281 Thu 08 Jun 2023, 8:19 pm

KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Most indispensable player, but wouldn't have played a game if Leach hadn't got injured.
Leach may not have gotten a run had he not prematurely retired

Eh? Leach was picked in the squad, Moeen wasn't, and neither was any other spinner. Leach was 99.99% going to start, until he got injured.

Players are not picked if they have retired

Yes, but Moeen was only asked to come out of retirement when Leach got injured. Not before. If he were so indispensable I'd have thought he would have been asked at the start of the summer.

Had Moeen not prematurely retired...Leach may not have had so many chances and not established himself

What premature retirement? Why wouldn't Leach, a better bowler and only a marginally inferior batsman at this point, have had so many chances if Moeen had stuck around?

by VTR Fri 09 Jun 2023, 8:05 am

When did not vastly overrating someone become synonymous with maligning? I think people aren't convinced Moeen will do much in this series, based on his declining returns in Test cricket in general and also his abysmal record vs Australia

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Fri 09 Jun 2023, 10:54 am

https://www.instagram.com/stories/stokesy/?hl=en

Stokes uploaded to his instagram this morning, video of him bowling seemingly full pelt in practice at St Andrews University (England team have gone on a week away up to Scotland for some training and golf as I understand). Potentially good news...?

by Jetty Fri 09 Jun 2023, 1:28 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Duckett has likely sprained both thumbs while texting a friend.
Prepare yourself folks, it's time for my latest unrequested tangent.

There's a thought amongst a few people I've talked to that cover the CC that Duckett's nasty finger injury has made him a better player in the long run. It was a really bad break that required surgery and Duckett has spoken about having to relearn how to hold the bat afterwards. There's a train of though that the change in grip and subsequent alterations in technique to accommodate have allowed him to access the offside better as a consequence.

It's a funny old world, ey.

Imagine how good he might get after two thumb sprains!

Hi Carlos - Interesting. Genuinely interesting about Duckett.

If I recall correctly, you went off on another unrequested tangent whilst I was away about Tim Murtagh discovering his wobble ball leading to a long and pretty successful career. I saw him debut for Surrey around 20 years ago and, although he had some accuracy, he was so lacking in pace and penetration that I thought he would join that long list of never quite made it bowlers who drifted out of the game in their mid twenties. So much for my foresight and what his discovery of the wobble ball helped him achieve!

https://wisden.com/stories/features/long-read-the-story-of-the-wobble-seam-the-ball-that-changed-cricket

by Soul Requiem Sat 10 Jun 2023, 9:39 pm

I don't why but came across this quote from Sir Garfield Sobers and thought it summed most of us, thought i'd share it.

Well, I suppose cricket is a game which you have to be born into to understand the difference and the excitement of it. I don't think cricket is a game that people who have never played or been involved in understand the excitement. It's a game that is full of excitement, because cricket lovers follow the game and understand the basic principles and rules. They become connoisseurs of the game. For instance in Test cricket, some people find it very boring when batsmen are finding it difficult to score runs quickly, but the real lovers of the game find it fascinating when there's a duel between bat and ball. That's one of the important things especially at Test level.
As we know in the US, people can't understand how you can play for five or six days and end up with a drawn game. But those in cricket-playing countries can understand that, particularly if the game is tight and being played between two good teams, and they can understand the tactics and strategies, and can enjoy the game.
Of course, one-day cricket is always exciting, because there is always something happening, there are wickets, runs, it is a very fast-moving game, and I think it's the kind of game that will eventually take on in the US. As we know, they like fast-moving sports, and this is the game that really produces entertainment. And this is how we should look at one-day cricket it's a form of entertainment, rather than the form of cricket which will develop skills.

by guildfordbat Sat 10 Jun 2023, 10:55 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:I don't why but came across this quote from Sir Garfield Sobers and thought it summed most of us, thought i'd share it.

Well, I suppose cricket is a game which you have to be born into to understand the difference and the excitement of it. I don't think cricket is a game that people who have never played or been involved in understand the excitement. It's a game that is full of excitement, because cricket lovers follow the game and understand the basic principles and rules. They become connoisseurs of the game. For instance in Test cricket, some people find it very boring when batsmen are finding it difficult to score runs quickly, but the real lovers of the game find it fascinating when there's a duel between bat and ball. That's one of the important things especially at Test level.
As we know in the US, people can't understand how you can play for five or six days and end up with a drawn game. But those in cricket-playing countries can understand that, particularly if the game is tight and being played between two good teams, and they can understand the tactics and strategies, and can enjoy the game.
Of course, one-day cricket is always exciting, because there is always something happening, there are wickets, runs, it is a very fast-moving game, and I think it's the kind of game that will eventually take on in the US. As we know, they like fast-moving sports, and this is the game that really produces entertainment. And this is how we should look at one-day cricket it's a form of entertainment, rather than the form of cricket which will develop skills.

Thanks, Soul.

Great words from a great man. Forward sighted of him too.

by eirebilly_01 Mon 12 Jun 2023, 11:48 am

KP_fan wrote:

You know what I think of Moeen & Eng's selectors agree with my view.....the most indispensable player in Eng
We know the general view of this forum is overly pessimistic of him
But in the end the validation of his worth comes from English selectors

I am a massive fan of Moeen, I really am but in no way is he indispensable to England now or ever was.

The selection, for me, is a backward step and one I can only assume is for his batting rather than bowling and quite frankly, neither of those has been good for sometime even in his favourite white ball games. He has little to none FC recently and no test experience for years so I can hardly see him doing any damage or holding down one end for an extended period of time. At best, i would say he would be the second spinning option behind Joe Root.

Its also not a very good sign to the young spinners (Rehan Ahmed etc.) that they are overlooked by the selectors and Moeen is recalled. Massively demotivating for them.

by Soul Requiem Mon 12 Jun 2023, 12:13 pm

I don't agree with recalling Moeen but I don't think it can be seen as demotivating for Ahmed for instance because he simply isn't ready for an Ashes series; the odd test here or there is fine but it's a level of pressure he won't have endured. I'd have gone for Dawson personally but Ahmed was never an option.

by VTR Mon 12 Jun 2023, 1:13 pm

The most indispensable player, who was actually dispensed of whilst England won 11 out of 13 Tests!

by KP_fan Mon 12 Jun 2023, 1:52 pm

eirebilly_01 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:

You know what I think of Moeen & Eng's selectors agree with my view.....the most indispensable player in Eng
We know the general view of this forum is overly pessimistic of him
But in the end the validation of his worth comes from English selectors

I am a massive fan of Moeen, I really am but in no way is he indispensable to England now or ever was.

The selection, for me, is a backward step and one I can only assume is for his batting rather than bowling and quite frankly, neither of those has been good for sometime even in his favourite white ball games. He has little to none FC recently and no test experience for years so I can hardly see him doing any damage or holding down one end for an extended period of time. At best, i would say he would be the second spinning option behind Joe Root.

Its also not a very good sign to the young spinners (Rehan Ahmed etc.) that they are overlooked by the selectors and Moeen is recalled. Massively demotivating for them.

I agree to the made bold text.
BUT as I see the template of this Eng side is to play tests like T20s and they are looking for batting skills from their bowler especially spinner..
And more specifically T20 skills . Re: Moeen.

--Oct 2022 Eng approached Moeen to join the squad for Pak tests but he declined

"Baz phoned me, we spoke at length and I said, "Sorry, I'm done," Moeen said.
"I've had an honest chat with Baz and I can't see myself being stuck in hotels for another month and playing to the best of my ability.
( source: from BBC sports)

--April 2022 Moeen's name was in discussion to be test captain inspite of him having retired had retired from tests already in 2021
( source: various English news papers and punter's odds

-Feb 2021 : Moeen was recalled to play test in India and Eng / Root openly wanted him to continue but he walked out and walked back after 2nd test

-Sep 2021: Moeen was made Vice Captain in tests, but he retired soon after to focus on limited overs

-Summary England has been chasing & requesting/enticing Moeen to be in the test squad for quite some time
Including appointing him as VC and discussing him as a potential for captaincy inspite of him being in retirement when captaincy opening appeared.

-They wanted him for long...forever....It's Moeen who accepted it this time.

by Sponsored content