Yet another mass shooting in America

by mountain man Mon 10 Apr 2023, 4:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

The USA, home of the free and land of the deranged mass shooter.

No doubt usual vigils, well meaning words, heart felt condolences etc given out but ultimately naff all be done to alleviate the scourge of gun crime.
What's the NRA line, only way to deal with this is to arm more people?

Yep that's really working out fine and dandy....

by Duty281 Thu 18 May 2023, 12:45 pm

"I've asked Duty plenty of times to tell me what it was she wrote in her piece that was "Antisemitic". (Spelt it right for him) Cool and he still hasn't answered although his smokescreening has been quite impressive"

I have answered this for you, Truss, but just like when it's pointed out that Corbyn faced anti-Semitic accusations before 2017, you choose to ignore it. I shall reproduce it for you:

Of course Diane Abbott belittled anti-Jewish hate, by saying they don't suffer from racism, when they undoubtedly do, and she bizarrely compared Jews (a persecuted people throughout history, 6 million of whom were murdered just 80 years ago) to the prejudice against redheads, which is an insulting and disgusting comparison. But you have a history of defending anti-Semites, and we probably all know the reason why.

You may disagree that this is anti-Semitism, but some people also disagree that man has set foot on the moon, and they can't be helped either.

by the-goon2 Fri 19 May 2023, 2:07 pm

alfie wrote:
the-goon2 wrote:Switzerland has a very high % of gun ownership but doesn't have mass shootings.

Maybe it isn't simply the guns....

Also, this naïve belief of making guns "illegal" will suddenly make the shootings stop. How about we make murder illegal? That should stop it. Right? Oh...

But it's doing something. Even if it will cause more problems than it solves.

Most Americans are seeing crime go up, police forces being gutted, criminals being allowed back on the street and cops doing nothing when called. And you think you Americans will give away their guns? No, the opposite, they are seeing that they need to protect themselves, and can't rely on the state.

Taking these one at a time :

No , it isn't "simply the guns". It is the widespread mentality that goes with their mythical status. Removing a lot of guns won't make everything perfect overnight : but it might make a start towards changing that dangerous cultural feature.

Not sure how , for example , a blanket ban on assault rifles could cause "more problems" ? Except for the profits of gun shop owners perhaps...

As for that rubbish about self protection I think that fallacy has been demolished already on this thread. But to add : in just the last couple of weeks we have seen four instances of totally innocent people being shot by idiots just because they felt "threatened" (for no good reason) and had firearms handy ; but unless the news has been scandalously suppressed , I have yet to hear of any case where a Good Citizen foiled an attempt at violent crime by exercising his talents as a (defensive) gunslinger. I suspect such a Wild West good story doesn't actually happen very often. And maybe if the cops had less reason to worry that anyone they meet might be armed and looking for an excuse to open fire they might end up doing a better job of protecting the innocent ?

Meanwhile suicide by firearm continues to be a regular occurrence ; deranged individuals keep shooting up schools or places of former employment when off their meds ; and simple disagreements between neighbours or motorists are apt to escalate into potentially fatal gunfights.

But hey , the sacred Second Amendment still rules and The People keep their Rights ...

Interesting that you didn't address the point that crime is rising, the police are being gutted and response times are worsening. Why rely on the police?

Here is some info on defensive gun use:

https://reason.com/2022/09/09/the-largest-ever-survey-of-american-gun-owners-finds-that-defensive-use-of-firearms-is-common/

A lot happens in the world and isn't covered in the media, not a great way assess what goes on in the world. Was the latest gangland murder in Chicago in the news, no? Would any of your gun control policies stopped it? No. The vast majority of the mass shootings never make the news, and they happen mostly in democrat run inner cities that have the strictest gun control in the country.

by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 19 May 2023, 2:20 pm

Most of the legacy broadcast media in the US is Liberal......Taking CNN and Fox off the table which are cheerleaders for Democrats and GOP to a crazy extent......

But it is true the second Amendment is outdated....Problem is guns are so widespread now I don't see any answers.....and if a brave President does try to amend the 2nd like I said the tenth Amendment comes in to play.....

Certainly while a good percentage of Democrats favor being able to arm nothing is going to change and while we have some idiots about....most People are genuinely worried about protecting their families and not too interested in the Political aspect...

by mountain man Mon 03 Jul 2023, 1:17 pm

Another one, this time in Baltimore.
So far 338 mass shootings in America this year.

by alfie Mon 03 Jul 2023, 1:57 pm

mountain man wrote:Another one, this time in Baltimore.
So far 338 mass shootings in America this year.

by Duty281 Mon 03 Jul 2023, 1:58 pm

mountain man wrote:Another one, this time in Baltimore.
So far 338 mass shootings in America this year.

And I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free... music

by dummy_half Mon 03 Jul 2023, 3:05 pm

mountain man wrote:Another one, this time in Baltimore.
So far 338 mass shootings in America this year.

Thoughts and prayers...

by the-goon2 Mon 03 Jul 2023, 3:14 pm

mountain man wrote:Another one, this time in Baltimore.
So far 338 mass shootings in America this year.

Shall we care to guess where the vast majority of them took place? And by whom?

Were they with legal or illegally held weapons?

As we know, all gun control laws will not reduce shootings using illegal guns.

by mountain man Mon 03 Jul 2023, 3:18 pm

Ah so you are introducing a racial element then, is that it?

So gun control laws won't reduce shootings using illegal guns so best thing is do nothing.

Well, that policy is obviously working fine and dandy.

No, wait. It's not.

by the-goon2 Mon 03 Jul 2023, 3:36 pm

mountain man wrote:Ah so you are introducing a racial element then, is that it?

So gun control laws won't reduce shootings using illegal guns so best thing is do nothing.

Well, that policy is obviously working fine and dandy.

No, wait. It's not.

I'm not introducing it, I'm describing reality. But at least you know acknowledge it, rather than trying to convince yourself that it's white men. How are you supposed to tackle an issue if you don't know what the problem is?

It's interesting that your solution (which is always gun control and taking guns from law abiding citizens) is to try address a small % of shootings, and ignore the vast majority of them. Completely oblivious to the 2nd order consequences of your policy.

I want to see the number of murders and shootings go down. So my solution, is more and heavier policing in high crime areas, broken windows policing, heavy sentencing for repeat offenders, stop and search etc.

It's not pretty, mistakes will be made, but it's the only way.

Crime drives poverty, so if you don't tackle crime (and what bigger crime is there than murder), you see these areas fall further into despair.

by **JuliusHMarx** Mon 03 Jul 2023, 3:53 pm

Personally I think the guy needed lessons - 2 dead and 28 injured. Where's your aim, man?!

by the-goon2 Mon 03 Jul 2023, 4:28 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:Personally I think the guy needed lessons - 2 dead and 28 injured. Where's your aim, man?!

Classy

by mountain man Mon 03 Jul 2023, 5:05 pm

But at least you know acknowledge it, rather than trying to convince yourself that it's white men.

You mean apart from all those white kids that shoot up schools?

Personally I think the ethnicity of the shooter is irrelevant. What is relevant is it's still happening and will continue to happen as literally nothing is being done to help prevent mass shooting.

by the-goon2 Mon 03 Jul 2023, 5:16 pm

mountain man wrote:
But at least you know acknowledge it, rather than trying to convince yourself that it's white men.

You mean apart from all those white kids that shoot up schools?

Personally I think the ethnicity of the shooter is irrelevant. What is relevant is it's still happening and will continue to happen as literally nothing is being done to help prevent mass shooting.

I've told you what needs to be done to reduce shootings. Now ask yourself, who is stopping the police from doing their job? Which political party? Which activists?

Unless you have another idea?

Also, how many of those 338 shootings this year, was a white kid shooting up a school? It won't be 0, but it isn't close to 338.

by Soul Requiem Mon 03 Jul 2023, 5:57 pm

We get it; Black is bad, white is good.

by **JuliusHMarx** Mon 03 Jul 2023, 6:01 pm

the-goon2 wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:Personally I think the guy needed lessons - 2 dead and 28 injured. Where's your aim, man?!

Classy

Too soon?
Classier than politicians offering meaningless thoughts and prayers.

by the-goon2 Tue 04 Jul 2023, 8:07 am

I guess that is classier than the democrat politicians that control the cities where the vast majority of the crime is taking place. Not really difficult.

You are correct in that they are doing nothing about it. In fact I would say they are actively making it worse with soft on crime policies.

by mountain man Tue 04 Jul 2023, 9:18 am

You are correct in that they are doing nothing about it. In fact I would say they are actively making it worse with soft on crime policies.

You say one of your policies would be stop and search. You have also stated(or certainly strongly implied) it is the black community causing most issues with crime and guns.

Stop and search works often but there are then issues of racial profiling which doesn't go down well.

by **navyblueshorts** Tue 04 Jul 2023, 10:00 am

the-goon2 wrote:
mountain man wrote:Another one, this time in Baltimore.
So far 338 mass shootings in America this year.

Shall we care to guess where the vast majority of them took place? And by whom?

Were they with legal or illegally held weapons?

As we know, all gun control laws will not reduce shootings using illegal guns.

Spot the irrelevant, attempt to deflect, bit...... thumbsup

by the-goon2 Tue 04 Jul 2023, 10:03 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
the-goon2 wrote:
mountain man wrote:Another one, this time in Baltimore.
So far 338 mass shootings in America this year.

Shall we care to guess where the vast majority of them took place? And by whom?

Were they with legal or illegally held weapons?

As we know, all gun control laws will not reduce shootings using illegal guns.

Spot the irrelevant, attempt to deflect, bit......

Am I wrong? Please educate me.

by **navyblueshorts** Tue 04 Jul 2023, 10:04 am

mountain man wrote:
You are correct in that they are doing nothing about it. In fact I would say they are actively making it worse with soft on crime policies.

You say one of your policies would be stop and search. You have also stated(or certainly strongly implied) it is the black community causing most issues with crime and guns.

Stop and search works often but there are then issues of racial profiling which doesn't go down well.

He surely can't be advocating this? What about all those cries of personal freedom? Then again, I guess it's OK if it's black people in inner cities being stopped/searched as they don't deserve the same freedoms?

by **navyblueshorts** Tue 04 Jul 2023, 10:06 am

the-goon2 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
the-goon2 wrote:
mountain man wrote:Another one, this time in Baltimore.
So far 338 mass shootings in America this year.

Shall we care to guess where the vast majority of them took place? And by whom?

Were they with legal or illegally held weapons?

As we know, all gun control laws will not reduce shootings using illegal guns.

Spot the irrelevant, attempt to deflect, bit......

Am I wrong? Please educate me.

Difficult - you don't appear to be interested. The point is you're arguing against any form of gun control using the argument that it won't stop shootings w/ illegally-held weapons. Of course not. By definition, they're illegally held so any gun controls aren't going to affect them and therefore shootings using such likely won't be affected. See? Not that hard to grasp.

by the-goon2 Tue 04 Jul 2023, 10:17 am

mountain man wrote:
You are correct in that they are doing nothing about it. In fact I would say they are actively making it worse with soft on crime policies.

You say one of your policies would be stop and search. You have also stated(or certainly strongly implied) it is the black community causing most issues with crime and guns.

Stop and search works often but there are then issues of racial profiling which doesn't go down well.

Yes, it is the black community, and they are also the ones that suffer the violence and poverty the crime causes too. So dealing with it will benefit them the most. I know, how dare I want the lives blacks to improve, so racist.

Like I said, it won't be pretty, and mistakes will be made. It's the trade off you need to make ultimately. Increased interaction with the police, which can turn violent but deterring ppl from carrying illegal guns on the street; or less police interaction and more crime. See the Ferguson effect.

Look at London, knife crime soared once Sadiq Khan ended stop and search.

by mountain man Tue 04 Jul 2023, 10:19 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
mountain man wrote:
You are correct in that they are doing nothing about it. In fact I would say they are actively making it worse with soft on crime policies.

You say one of your policies would be stop and search. You have also stated(or certainly strongly implied) it is the black community causing most issues with crime and guns.

Stop and search works often but there are then issues of racial profiling which doesn't go down well.
He surely can't be advocating this? What about all those cries of personal freedom? Then again, I guess it's OK if it's black people in inner cities being stopped/searched as they don't deserve the same freedoms?

Yes he is :

the-goon2 wrote: So my solution, is more and heavier policing in high crime areas, broken windows policing, heavy sentencing for repeat offenders, stop and search etc.

by the-goon2 Tue 04 Jul 2023, 10:21 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
the-goon2 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
the-goon2 wrote:
mountain man wrote:Another one, this time in Baltimore.
So far 338 mass shootings in America this year.

Shall we care to guess where the vast majority of them took place? And by whom?

Were they with legal or illegally held weapons?

As we know, all gun control laws will not reduce shootings using illegal guns.

Spot the irrelevant, attempt to deflect, bit......

Am I wrong? Please educate me.
Difficult - you don't appear to be interested. The point is you're arguing against any form of gun control using the argument that it won't stop shootings w/ illegally-held weapons. Of course not. By definition, they're illegally held so any gun controls aren't going to affect them and therefore shootings using such likely won't be affected. See? Not that hard to grasp.

So we agree?

Or is your contention that illegal guns aren't used as often, and therefore confiscating or reducing the prevalence of legal firearms will make a larger impact?

So what do we do about the illegal guns?

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 04 Jul 2023, 11:05 am

Gun crime has been cut in the past.....By Focus deterrence policy....Back home in Massachusetts as well as some other States in the early 90s the hotspots of youth crime were highlighted and these areas were invested in with Education....Youth projects...Sport and otherwise and in encouraging the wider community to get involved whether it be Community leaders, Normal families, Faith leaders etc....

Crime was cut for a time and there is no doubt it works......Kids need role models in deprived areas where they can learn that life isn't cheap and there are other ways...

Sadly investment in these kids very rarely transpires.

by **navyblueshorts** Tue 04 Jul 2023, 12:19 pm

the-goon2 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
the-goon2 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
the-goon2 wrote:
mountain man wrote:Another one, this time in Baltimore.
So far 338 mass shootings in America this year.

Shall we care to guess where the vast majority of them took place? And by whom?

Were they with legal or illegally held weapons?

As we know, all gun control laws will not reduce shootings using illegal guns.

Spot the irrelevant, attempt to deflect, bit......

Am I wrong? Please educate me.
Difficult - you don't appear to be interested. The point is you're arguing against any form of gun control using the argument that it won't stop shootings w/ illegally-held weapons. Of course not. By definition, they're illegally held so any gun controls aren't going to affect them and therefore shootings using such likely won't be affected. See? Not that hard to grasp.

So we agree?

Or is your contention that illegal guns aren't used as often, and therefore confiscating or reducing the prevalence of legal firearms will make a larger impact?

So what do we do about the illegal guns?

I don't think we agree - you're using a nonsensical argument re. illegal weapons for not introducing controls on legally held firearms.

Illegal guns? That's what the police etc are for.

by the-goon2 Tue 04 Jul 2023, 12:24 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
I don't think we agree - you're using a nonsensical argument re. illegal weapons for not introducing controls on legally held firearms.

Illegal guns? That's what the police etc are for.

So you want heavier policing? Perhaps targeting areas with a prevalence to carry illegal guns? Maybe there is a measure that would dissuade them from carrying the illegal guns? Some sort of spot check to make sure no one is carrying?

by the-goon2 Tue 04 Jul 2023, 12:27 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Gun crime has been cut in the past.....By Focus deterrence policy....Back home in Massachusetts as well as some other States in the early 90s the hotspots of youth crime were highlighted and these areas were invested in with Education....Youth projects...Sport and otherwise and in encouraging the wider community to get involved whether it be Community leaders, Normal families, Faith leaders etc....

Crime was cut for a time and there is no doubt it works......Kids need role models in deprived areas where they can learn that life isn't cheap and there are other ways...

Sadly investment in these kids very rarely transpires.

There're called fathers. Sadly that's an issue welfare and more government spending cannot address. The community needs to fix it themselves.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 04 Jul 2023, 1:03 pm

the-goon2 wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Gun crime has been cut in the past.....By Focus deterrence policy....Back home in Massachusetts as well as some other States in the early 90s the hotspots of youth crime were highlighted and these areas were invested in with Education....Youth projects...Sport and otherwise and in encouraging the wider community to get involved whether it be Community leaders, Normal families, Faith leaders etc....

Crime was cut for a time and there is no doubt it works......Kids need role models in deprived areas where they can learn that life isn't cheap and there are other ways...

Sadly investment in these kids very rarely transpires.

There're called fathers. Sadly that's an issue welfare and more government spending cannot address. The community needs to fix it themselves.

Sadly you don't always get good Fathers.......Good and Bad People sometimes pay for it....

I'd like to see kids get a fair chance out of life.....Maybe you're a spoilt brat and think differently....

Empathy and Compassion are virtues I regard as admirable..

by the-goon2 Tue 04 Jul 2023, 2:43 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
the-goon2 wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Gun crime has been cut in the past.....By Focus deterrence policy....Back home in Massachusetts as well as some other States in the early 90s the hotspots of youth crime were highlighted and these areas were invested in with Education....Youth projects...Sport and otherwise and in encouraging the wider community to get involved whether it be Community leaders, Normal families, Faith leaders etc....

Crime was cut for a time and there is no doubt it works......Kids need role models in deprived areas where they can learn that life isn't cheap and there are other ways...

Sadly investment in these kids very rarely transpires.

There're called fathers. Sadly that's an issue welfare and more government spending cannot address. The community needs to fix it themselves.

Sadly you don't always get good Fathers.......Good and Bad People sometimes pay for it....

I'd like to see kids get a fair chance out of life.....Maybe you're a spoilt brat and think differently....

Empathy and Compassion are virtues I regard as admirable..

.

by the-goon2 Wed 05 Jul 2023, 1:19 pm

the-goon2 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
I don't think we agree - you're using a nonsensical argument re. illegal weapons for not introducing controls on legally held firearms.

Illegal guns? That's what the police etc are for.

So you want heavier policing? Perhaps targeting areas with a prevalence to carry illegal guns? Maybe there is a measure that would dissuade them from carrying the illegal guns? Some sort of spot check to make sure no one is carrying?

So Navy, I have a question. How exactly do you reduce the number of shootings using illegal guns? The US already have a police force, but this problem is getting worse, not better. What else needs to be done?

I see a lot poo pooing of my ideas, but nothing to offer instead.

If you have better ideas, let's have it.

by the-goon2 Wed 05 Jul 2023, 1:32 pm

[quote="TRUSSMAN66"

Sadly you don't always get good Fathers.......Good and Bad People sometimes pay for it....

[/quote]

No you don't. So why do so many black children suffer the huge developmental disadvantage of poor parents? Or at least sub optimal family structures.

In terms of investment in these kids, who is ultimately responsible for them? The tax payer at large?

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 10 Jul 2023, 10:47 am

the-goon2 wrote:[quote="TRUSSMAN66"

Sadly you don't always get good Fathers.......Good and Bad People sometimes pay for it....

No you don't. So why do so many black children suffer the huge developmental disadvantage of poor parents? Or at least sub optimal family structures.

In terms of investment in these kids, who is ultimately responsible for them? The tax payer at large?

[/quote]

Sub optimal family structiure ?????

The Civil rights act under LBJ is only a tad more than 50 years old......Still Blacks are less likely to move up the income ladder than other Ethnic groups....Called 'Systemic Inequality'.

As statistics show Money is the most likely cause of divorce....I mean come on Man !!!!

by **navyblueshorts** Mon 10 Jul 2023, 12:10 pm

the-goon2 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
I don't think we agree - you're using a nonsensical argument re. illegal weapons for not introducing controls on legally held firearms.

Illegal guns? That's what the police etc are for.

So you want heavier policing? Perhaps targeting areas with a prevalence to carry illegal guns? Maybe there is a measure that would dissuade them from carrying the illegal guns? Some sort of spot check to make sure no one is carrying?

We could debate how the police should best approach illegal gun ownership, but I do note your ignoring of the fact you're avoiding discussion of any gun controls for legally held weapons...

by **navyblueshorts** Mon 10 Jul 2023, 12:13 pm

the-goon2 wrote:
the-goon2 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
I don't think we agree - you're using a nonsensical argument re. illegal weapons for not introducing controls on legally held firearms.

Illegal guns? That's what the police etc are for.

So you want heavier policing? Perhaps targeting areas with a prevalence to carry illegal guns? Maybe there is a measure that would dissuade them from carrying the illegal guns? Some sort of spot check to make sure no one is carrying?

So Navy, I have a question. How exactly do you reduce the number of shootings using illegal guns? The US already have a police force, but this problem is getting worse, not better. What else needs to be done?

I see a lot poo pooing of my ideas, but nothing to offer instead.

If you have better ideas, let's have it.

Oh no. Not biting. This came about re. legal gun ownership and deaths from such. I'm not really interested in debating what to do re. illegal ownership as your pet interest, in absence of any consideration of deaths from legally held weapons. Deaths from illegal weapons are a completely different question, and one I'm not particularly interested in.

by the-goon2 Mon 10 Jul 2023, 12:48 pm

yes, being raised with your biological mother and father, who are married is the optimal family structure, everything else is by definition sub optimal.

They might be less likely, but that doesn't prove discrimination. You can't look at outcomes and determine if something is fair or not.

The NBA is a classic example, why are there so few Asians? Systematic discrimination?

by the-goon2 Mon 10 Jul 2023, 12:53 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
the-goon2 wrote:
the-goon2 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
I don't think we agree - you're using a nonsensical argument re. illegal weapons for not introducing controls on legally held firearms.

Illegal guns? That's what the police etc are for.

So you want heavier policing? Perhaps targeting areas with a prevalence to carry illegal guns? Maybe there is a measure that would dissuade them from carrying the illegal guns? Some sort of spot check to make sure no one is carrying?

So Navy, I have a question. How exactly do you reduce the number of shootings using illegal guns? The US already have a police force, but this problem is getting worse, not better. What else needs to be done?

I see a lot poo pooing of my ideas, but nothing to offer instead.

If you have better ideas, let's have it.
Oh no. Not biting. This came about re. legal gun ownership and deaths from such. I'm not really interested in debating what to do re. illegal ownership as your pet interest, in absence of any consideration of deaths from legally held weapons. Deaths from illegal weapons are a completely different question, and one I'm not particularly interested in.

Why aren't you interested? The vast majority of mass shootings and murders happen with illegal guns? Seems odd.

by the-goon2 Mon 10 Jul 2023, 1:02 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
the-goon2 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
I don't think we agree - you're using a nonsensical argument re. illegal weapons for not introducing controls on legally held firearms.

Illegal guns? That's what the police etc are for.

So you want heavier policing? Perhaps targeting areas with a prevalence to carry illegal guns? Maybe there is a measure that would dissuade them from carrying the illegal guns? Some sort of spot check to make sure no one is carrying?
We could debate how the police should best approach illegal gun ownership, but I do note your ignoring of the fact you're avoiding discussion of any gun controls for legally held weapons...

I'm interested with what your metric of success would be for gun control of legal firearms.

If you reduced the murder rate with legal weapons to zero, but the overall murder rate went up due to more ppl being killed by illegal guns, would you consider that a success?

Are you aware that if you banned legal possession of guns, you disarm lawful citizens, and by doing nothing about illegal guns, you keep them in the hands of criminals. Do you think that's a good thing? Would only allowing criminals to have guns make the US safer?

by **JuliusHMarx** Mon 10 Jul 2023, 1:46 pm

the-goon2 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
the-goon2 wrote:
the-goon2 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
I don't think we agree - you're using a nonsensical argument re. illegal weapons for not introducing controls on legally held firearms.

Illegal guns? That's what the police etc are for.

So you want heavier policing? Perhaps targeting areas with a prevalence to carry illegal guns? Maybe there is a measure that would dissuade them from carrying the illegal guns? Some sort of spot check to make sure no one is carrying?

So Navy, I have a question. How exactly do you reduce the number of shootings using illegal guns? The US already have a police force, but this problem is getting worse, not better. What else needs to be done?

I see a lot poo pooing of my ideas, but nothing to offer instead.

If you have better ideas, let's have it.
Oh no. Not biting. This came about re. legal gun ownership and deaths from such. I'm not really interested in debating what to do re. illegal ownership as your pet interest, in absence of any consideration of deaths from legally held weapons. Deaths from illegal weapons are a completely different question, and one I'm not particularly interested in.

Why aren't you interested? The vast majority of mass shootings and murders happen with illegal guns? Seems odd.

Not true for mass shootings, as a quick search on 'mass shooting legally purchased guns' reveals.

by **JuliusHMarx** Mon 10 Jul 2023, 2:01 pm

From this link -
https://www.texastribune.org/2023/02/23/mass-shootings-guns-obtained-legally/

James Densley, who co-founded the Violence Project, a nonpartisan nonprofit research center best known for its extensive mass shooter database.....

Densley said different forms of gun violence require targeted approaches. For instance, restrictions on assault-style weapons and large-capacity magazines could be effective at reducing mass shootings, but less so at curbing “everyday gun violence,” he said.

“And I think politicians actually know this,” Densely said. “They understand it intuitively. But they have to say what is politically convenient to satisfy the needs of their constituents and others. And so they often conflate these different forms of gun violence to be perceived to be talking about one thing when they’re actually talking about something else.”

I think this thread is about mass shootings isn't it?

by Samo Mon 10 Jul 2023, 2:51 pm

I've not had time to go through the list (its a long bloody list) but atleast the top 4 deadliest mass shootings in the US (Las Vegas, Pulse, Virginia Tech and Sandy Hook) were committed with legally purchased and owned firearms.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 10 Jul 2023, 2:55 pm

Samo wrote:I've not had time to go through the list (its a long bloody list) but atleast the top 4 deadliest mass shootings in the US (Las Vegas, Pulse, Virginia Tech and Sandy Hook) were committed with legally purchased and owned firearms.

Strangely enough when guns are legal people tend to purchase them legally...

Weird isn't it.

by the-goon2 Mon 10 Jul 2023, 3:00 pm

There are hundreds of mass shootings every year in the US, but you want to define most of them away because they happen in the inner cities, mainly by career criminals and young men under 18, who are not allowed to legally own a gun. Which would mean illegally held.

I know this article is nonsense because Texas has had far more shootings than 19 over the past 50 years. I'm sure most of its major cities get that many each year. I know any stats and arguments based of these stats are bunk, because the data set is incomplete.

Mountain man pointed out that there were 338 mass shootings so far this year. You didn't seem to dispute this, which interesting considering it matches perfectly the data I provide on mass shootings per year rather than yours? Why do all your articles base their reasoning on a very different dataset? Why didn't that figure of 338 in 2023 alone not surprise you?

Do the math. 19 in 50 years in the biggest state, to 338 per year nationwide. It doesn't add up.

by **JuliusHMarx** Mon 10 Jul 2023, 3:37 pm

This link provides details of the different definitions of mass shootings that are in use -
https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy/analysis/essays/mass-shootings.html

by the-goon2 Mon 10 Jul 2023, 4:34 pm

Ok, so which definition are we discussing?

Personally, I think the one which captures all shootings where there are multiple victims is best, as I think reducing violent crime should be the goal here. But if you think otherwise I'd be interested in your reasoning.

by **JuliusHMarx** Mon 10 Jul 2023, 5:21 pm

There is no one-size fits all solution.
Most 'mass public shootings' i.e. the large-scale ones where people are shot at random, or perhaps by someone holding a grudge against a former employer, are committed with legally owned guns and are isolated incidents unrelated to existing crime/gangs etc.
We can throw ideas back and forth on those (or on urban crime in general, if you want to start another thread), but having lengthy discussion on 606v2 is not actually going to solve anything, so if you have ideas that you are convinced will work, and actually want to do something about it, here is not the place.

by Samo Mon 10 Jul 2023, 6:17 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Samo wrote:I've not had time to go through the list (its a long bloody list) but atleast the top 4 deadliest mass shootings in the US (Las Vegas, Pulse, Virginia Tech and Sandy Hook) were committed with legally purchased and owned firearms.

Strangely enough when guns are legal people tend to purchase them legally...

Weird isn't it.

And if they couldnt purchase them legally their victims would still be alive.

Weird isn’t it.

by the-goon2 Tue 11 Jul 2023, 7:53 am

Samo wrote:

And if they couldnt purchase them legally their victims would still be alive.

Weird isn’t it.

If ppl who have used legally purchased guns defensively against aggression, couldn't own those guns, they would be a crime stat.

https://reason.com/2022/09/09/the-largest-ever-survey-of-american-gun-owners-finds-that-defensive-use-of-firearms-is-common/

All actions have unintended consequences.

by the-goon2 Tue 11 Jul 2023, 7:59 am

JuliusHMarx wrote:There is no one-size fits all solution.
Most 'mass public shootings' i.e. the large-scale ones where people are shot at random, or perhaps by someone holding a grudge against a former employer, are committed with legally owned guns and are isolated incidents unrelated to existing crime/gangs etc.
We can throw ideas back and forth on those (or on urban crime in general, if you want to start another thread), but having lengthy discussion on 606v2 is not actually going to solve anything, so if you have ideas that you are convinced will work, and actually want to do something about it, here is not the place.

This is an opinion forum at the end of the day, we are here to challenge our own ideas and beliefs, and see where they stack up against others.

You talk about throwing ideas, well could you actually do that.

Let's focus then on those isolated shootings you mentioned.

1. What do you think could reduce it?
2. What would be the challenges in implementation?
3. Likelihood of in happening
4. Any downstream consequences?

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