England's Summer of Cricket 2023, Featuring The Ashes

by king_carlos Sun 02 Jul 2023, 11:24 pm

First topic message reminder :

If Pope can't play I'd probably prefer Foakes coming in, taking the gloves, myself. Maybe:

1.Crawley 2.Duckett 3.Brook 4.Root 5.Bairstow 6.Stokes (c) 7.Foakes (wk)

It means a rejigging of the order but gets better players in the XI than Lawrence at 3 IMO. Particularly when I'm not that convinced by Lawrence against higher pace. Given the 15 man squad that isn't on the cards though.

If Wood is genuinely fit I'd like his pace in the attack but would probably ere towards the seam heavy attack again if the 4 below are good to go:

8.Woakes 9.Broad 10.Wood 11.Tongue

If Wood isn't fit then:

8.Moeen 9.Woakes 10.Broad 11.Tongue

Which does have a lot of batting depth on the upside.

by king_carlos Sun 16 Jul 2023, 3:04 pm

A good start for England. Beaumont playing the spin very well thus far.

by king_carlos Sun 16 Jul 2023, 3:25 pm

50* (37) for Beaumont. It's been a very fluent knock.

Dunkley has struggled to get it off the square at the other end though.

by king_carlos Sun 16 Jul 2023, 3:27 pm

A fairly torturous innings from Dunkley comes to an end.

I'd say Wareham has got a bit more purchase than the other spinners so far from this brief look.

by Duty281 Sun 16 Jul 2023, 3:41 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jul/16/england-set-to-recall-jimmy-anderson-for-fourth-ashes-test

England's team to be as expected, with Anderson in for Robinson and no other changes. No confirmation of who will be at 3. Possible that England officially name their team tomorrow.

by king_carlos Sun 16 Jul 2023, 3:48 pm

Duty281 wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jul/16/england-set-to-recall-jimmy-anderson-for-fourth-ashes-test

England's team to be as expected, with Anderson in for Robinson and no other changes. No confirmation of who will be at 3. Possible that England officially name their team tomorrow.

I've heard mixed reports on the timeline with Mo moving to 3. It seems Mo approached McCullum and Stokes but there's been suggestions that Brook was told he'd be batting 5 in the 2nd innings before that happened. If so England would have been planning a rejig anyway. Whether that would have been Mo to 3 or perhaps Stokes is then the question?

If Stokes is playing as a specialist batter then I wouldn't be opposed to him batting at 3 myself. With how well he marshals the tail there is an obvious downside to moving him up though.

Generally speaking I think it's a huge risk these days to play either Jimmy or Wood is 3 man seam attacks. Which necessitates 4 seamers. I'd also be loathe to go into an Old Trafford Test without a spinner though. It's not an easy team to balance with Stokes' bust knee.

by king_carlos Sun 16 Jul 2023, 3:54 pm

Heather Knight absolutely livid as she goes LBW. Clearly thinks she's hit it. There's the tiniest (and I really do mean smallest I've ever seen) murmur on Ultraedge as the ball passes the bat.

Australia are squeezing well through their bowling depth. Already 6 bowlers used with Jonassen and Perry to come. Absurd options!

I'd presume they're holding Jonassen back in the hope she can just be plugged in at one end. Her consistency and economy are usually very good.

by king_carlos Sun 16 Jul 2023, 3:59 pm

I honestly thought that looked plumb live but as soon as seeing the review it was shaping in a fair way basically from the hand. Sciver-Brunt survives on review.

Vital for England that this pair can get them well into the middle overs now. Wyatt has brilliant power but Beaumont and Sciver-Brunt are both so strong rotating the strike with the field back.

by king_carlos Sun 16 Jul 2023, 4:02 pm

RRR already above 6. They can't afford to keep missing out if a leggie gives the full tosses as King did twice, both unpunished, in that over.

Here comes Jonassen.

by king_carlos Sun 16 Jul 2023, 4:06 pm

A great ball from King rips Beaumont out. That's a beauty. Drifts in towards leg and takes off. Cracking leg spin.

107-3

Australia well in front now.

by king_carlos Sun 16 Jul 2023, 4:32 pm

Wyatt follows Sciver-Brunt back to the pavilion. Australia squeezing really smartly through their spinners and getting the rewards.

It would take a Stokes esque effort from Sciver-Brunt to get it close now.

by king_carlos Sun 16 Jul 2023, 5:11 pm

A really great hand from Amy Jones was keeping this very interesting but Gardner comes back into the attack and gets the vital wicket. As she does so often.

Instinctively it feels Jones has gone a bit early there given Ecclestone, Glenn and Cross can all bat but won't score that quickly. That's so easy to say with retrospect though. Had they allowed the RRR to drift up for the final 5 overs then I may have said the opposite. That's the danger when it's your last established pair.

And Ecclestone goes too. 2 in the over from Gardner. England on the verge, sadly.

by king_carlos Sun 16 Jul 2023, 5:24 pm

It's safe to say that Georgia Wareham has had a very very good game there. clap

RRR creeping up again. England will need a big over for this to stay tight.

by king_carlos Sun 16 Jul 2023, 5:47 pm

100* for Nat Sciver Brunt clap

15 from 6 balls

It's a big ask. England have been in, "they need a big over", stage for a while. It's been left for the last.

by GSC Sun 16 Jul 2023, 5:49 pm

Looks like that final over just might be the difference in the game.

by king_carlos Sun 16 Jul 2023, 5:54 pm

Yep, that Wareham blitz the difference really. England were ahead compared to where Australia were in their innings at most points but that final over took it just beyond England's chase.

Another terrific game of cricket though.

Australia retain the Ashes but England can still level the series in the final ODI. Heartbreak for England still.

by Duty281 Mon 17 Jul 2023, 12:24 am

king_carlos wrote:
Duty281 wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jul/16/england-set-to-recall-jimmy-anderson-for-fourth-ashes-test

England's team to be as expected, with Anderson in for Robinson and no other changes. No confirmation of who will be at 3. Possible that England officially name their team tomorrow.
I've heard mixed reports on the timeline with Mo moving to 3. It seems Mo approached McCullum and Stokes but there's been suggestions that Brook was told he'd be batting 5 in the 2nd innings before that happened. If so England would have been planning a rejig anyway. Whether that would have been Mo to 3 or perhaps Stokes is then the question?

If Stokes is playing as a specialist batter then I wouldn't be opposed to him batting at 3 myself. With how well he marshals the tail there is an obvious downside to moving him up though.

Generally speaking I think it's a huge risk these days to play either Jimmy or Wood is 3 man seam attacks. Which necessitates 4 seamers. I'd also be loathe to go into an Old Trafford Test without a spinner though. It's not an easy team to balance with Stokes' bust knee.

My preference would be Stokes at 3, but it's not being talked about in the media so I assume it's not happening. Choice appears to be between Root, Brook and Moeen. Hopefully Stokes is able to bowl some overs in this test.

Aussies likely to retain Warner, don't think it was in any doubt, and Hazlewood to come back in for Boland. Macpherson hinting that Green will come back in place of Murphy, which I think would be the right choice.

Weather forecast seems to have improved. Wednesday and Thursday look dry. Friday a small chance of rain early on, but dry afterwards. Weekend still looking wet, however.

by alfie Mon 17 Jul 2023, 6:09 am

I do see the potential attraction of Stokes at three : but he bats so well with the tail and I rather doubt Moeen could do anything similar ! So perhaps keeping Mo there - for now - makes sense. He's as likely to make 15-20 there as at eight , really , as his good batting days seem long gone.

Anderson for Robinson seems logical.

Aussies just swapping Hazlewood back in for Boland and just choosing between Green and Murphy then ? Wait until the toss as usual...

by alfie Mon 17 Jul 2023, 6:13 am

As for the women was another terrific match. Thought Nat was going to get England over the line in that last over but not to be...As I had feared , that horrendous last over in the Aussie innings proved the decisive factor.

Whatever happens in the last game , Australia retain the trophy. But England still have a chance of winning both limited over segments ; and I think we can say in any case that they have narrowed the gap considerably to this all-conquering Australian team : a cracker of a series thumbsup

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Mon 17 Jul 2023, 7:43 am

Anderson for Robinson makes total sense - doubt Robinson would be fully fit in time, and Jimmy will be raring to go. Also does give Robinson some extra time off to be ready for a potential decider and to rest his ankle too (which I suspect is still causing him some issues from that early season knock picked up at Sussex).

Do think the Aussies look a formidable unit if Green comes in for Murphy - I know its only one spot down the lineup, but Carey, Cummins and Starc at 8, 9 and 10 in the batting suddenly makes it a very long lineup

by msp83 Mon 17 Jul 2023, 9:06 am

Tod Murphy is a very condition dependent bowler. He does spin the bowl and is not just a slow bowler, but doesn't put a lot of revolutions into the delivery. OT of old used to provide plenty of bounce for spinners to work with. Green coming in can bolster the seam bowling unit that has been too reliant on Starc and the skipper with Boland not really turning up and Hazelwood unavailable for 2 games. Mitch Marsh at best is a 5th bowler, not quite good enough to be a 4th seamer. Green can even at this stage, can be a decent 3rd seamer when really needed, and is a very handy 4th seamer. But unless Steve Smith is willing to take up a lot of bowling load and not leave his side to depend on Travis Head's and Marnus Labuschagne's pedestrian offerings, Australians will be ill-advised to go down that path. Smith, though he doesn't bowl regularly these days, can surely turn the cricket ball. Might offer too many hit-me stuff still. Head may be the least worst option when it comes to just bowling a few steady overs. But if you are hoping for a wicket, then it has to be Smith. Labuschagne's just fun with the ball, more often than not, he himself doesn't know what comes out of his hands! But unlike England who only have Joe Root's parttime offerings, the Australians have a few to share the load around.

by Duty281 Mon 17 Jul 2023, 10:04 am

England: Ben Duckett, Zak Crawley, Moeen Ali, Joe Root, Harry Brook, Ben Stokes, Jonny Bairstow, Chris Woakes, Mark Wood, Stuart Broad, James Anderson.

England team as expected. Moeen in the side, and at 3 Rolling Eyes

, plus Bairstow still having the gloves the obvious problems. A very strong seam attack again, but could be the last test for Anderson, who knows?

by Jetty Mon 17 Jul 2023, 10:32 am

Broad and Anderson have taken over 100 wickets between them since Stokes became captain.

Broad looking to reach 600 in the OT Test. Wood looking for his 100th.

by VTR Mon 17 Jul 2023, 11:17 am

Moeen at 3, anything he makes is a bonus I suppose! If he somehow makes a 50, that will feel to Australian supporters how it does to England supporters when a Marsh brother makes an Ashes ton. I would though even take 30 as vastly exceeding expectations

by Duty281 Mon 17 Jul 2023, 11:37 am

Just seen the pitch and it looks a beauty for batting already, not a hint of green on it. Weather seems good for the first few days, so there's not going to be much assistance for the bowlers, it seems. This is very welcome news for Australia, who have failed to get to 300 in their last three innings.

by GSC Mon 17 Jul 2023, 12:24 pm

Weekend still looks fairly ominous for play. should be some cloud cover pretty much throughout, not that the ball has done that much so far

by KP_fan Mon 17 Jul 2023, 2:22 pm

Eng have declared their 11 with Anderson their weak link and Wood a joy to watch @95mph when fit.
Only a guy like him one has the fear of him picking a niggle anytime and that could hinder the bursting full flow .
If so his make-up would be Stokes trundling like Colingwood.

Aus has more selection woes
-Green or Marsh or keep both and Murphy Out
OR
-Green and Marsh and Murphy all in and Boland out
( basically Green replaces Boland but this will come into consideration only if Hazelwood is not fully fit)

All other factors aside...it's Bairstow's blatant blunders that will lose Eng the series if they do go on to lose

by KP_fan Mon 17 Jul 2023, 2:24 pm

Duty281 wrote:Just seen the pitch and it looks a beauty for batting already, not a hint of green on it. Weather seems good for the first few days, so there's not going to be much assistance for the bowlers, it seems. This is very welcome news for Australia, who have failed to get to 300 in their last three innings.

In that case it will be hard to leave Murphy out.
there may be a case then for Marsh, Murphy, Green, Cummins and Starc as the five bowlers

by Duty281 Mon 17 Jul 2023, 2:27 pm

KP_fan wrote:Eng have declared their 11 with Anderson their weak link

The England line-up has many weak links; Anderson is not one of them.

by KP_fan Mon 17 Jul 2023, 2:29 pm

Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:Eng have declared their 11 with Anderson their weak link

The England line-up has many weak links; Anderson is not one of them.

You may copy & paste your older posts and my responses to those to what's leading to from here...... England's Summer of Cricket 2023, Featuring The Ashes - Page 16 1f601

England's Summer of Cricket 2023, Featuring The Ashes - Page 16 1f601

by king_carlos Mon 17 Jul 2023, 2:50 pm

I just can't wait to experience the bursting full flow of some fit Wood.

by KP_fan Mon 17 Jul 2023, 2:59 pm

king_carlos wrote:I just can't wait to experience the bursting full flow of some fit Wood.

"Pride" is the word that comes to mind now England's Summer of Cricket 2023, Featuring The Ashes - Page 16 1f601

by Duty281 Mon 17 Jul 2023, 4:42 pm

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/usman-khawaja-plays-key-role-in-over-rate-penalty-reduction-1387883

Great, the ICC will be more lenient on slow over rates.

by king_carlos Mon 17 Jul 2023, 6:18 pm

KP_fan wrote:
king_carlos wrote:I just can't wait to experience the bursting full flow of some fit Wood.

"Pride" is the word that comes to mind now

I'm always proud when flowing full Wood bursts for me.

by VTR Mon 17 Jul 2023, 6:27 pm

I just hope Wood doesn't spray it around!

by Soul Requiem Mon 17 Jul 2023, 7:24 pm

Duty281 wrote:https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/usman-khawaja-plays-key-role-in-over-rate-penalty-reduction-1387883

Great, the ICC will be more lenient on slow over rates.

I've never been too bothered by over rates. If you're watching a game it makes no difference to the enjoyment or lack of enjoyment if 90 overs are bowled or 80 overs are bowled. Quality always matters more than quantity.

by JDizzle Mon 17 Jul 2023, 7:58 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
Duty281 wrote:https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/usman-khawaja-plays-key-role-in-over-rate-penalty-reduction-1387883

Great, the ICC will be more lenient on slow over rates.

I've never been too bothered by over rates. If you're watching a game it makes no difference to the enjoyment or lack of enjoyment if 90 overs are bowled or 80 overs are bowled. Quality always matters more than quantity.

Agree with this - but also the Aussies can’t be allowed to take the piss so Cummins and Starc can bowl the majority of the overs with more rest so they can hide Murphy and Green/Marsh.

by VTR Mon 17 Jul 2023, 8:00 pm

Agree with that, there's always this line that the paying spectator is missing out if 90 overs aren't bowled. But to get to 90, it would often take some quick overs from part-timers, which is hardly riveting to watch. Or if it was the front line bowlers only you wouldn't really notice things happening roughly 10% more slowly than they should if only 80 overs are bowled. I felt far more short changed watching Luke Wright and Ravi Bopara open in a World T20 game

by king_carlos Mon 17 Jul 2023, 10:13 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/66221815

I didn't know Duty works for the NHS!

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Tue 18 Jul 2023, 8:13 am

JDizzle wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
Duty281 wrote:https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/usman-khawaja-plays-key-role-in-over-rate-penalty-reduction-1387883

Great, the ICC will be more lenient on slow over rates.

I've never been too bothered by over rates. If you're watching a game it makes no difference to the enjoyment or lack of enjoyment if 90 overs are bowled or 80 overs are bowled. Quality always matters more than quantity.

Agree with this - but also the Aussies can’t be allowed to take the piss so Cummins and Starc can bowl the majority of the overs with more rest so they can hide Murphy and Green/Marsh.

This was particularly prevalent in that 2nd innings at Edgbaston where Cummins/Lyon bowled almost unchanged for 45 overs...but it took 4 hours for them to be bowled, with a spinner bowling!

by **Galted** Tue 18 Jul 2023, 10:12 am

VTR wrote:Agree with that, there's always this line that the paying spectator is missing out if 90 overs aren't bowled. But to get to 90, it would often take some quick overs from part-timers, which is hardly riveting to watch. Or if it was the front line bowlers only you wouldn't really notice things happening roughly 10% more slowly than they should if only 80 overs are bowled. I felt far more short changed watching Luke Wright and Ravi Bopara open in a World T20 game

An alternative might be to limit the amount of field changes a team can make in an over.

by GSC Tue 18 Jul 2023, 12:53 pm

Cummins says Hazlewood for Boland and no changes to the top order

by alfie Tue 18 Jul 2023, 2:07 pm

Well that's helpful of him ! Thanks , Pat... Now I can consider selections for PJ's competition with time to spare Wink

by Duty281 Tue 18 Jul 2023, 2:17 pm

Crawley, another one like Moeen, out of his depth at this level, but because of the pitiful expectations placed on him, a mediocre series can be hailed as a great triumph.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/england-opener-zak-crawley-nailing-ashes-brief-1388032

'Nailing this Ashes'. Rolling Eyes

One half-century in six innings, played almost entirely on brilliant batting surfaces, now means a player is 'nailing this Ashes' and helping his side to win it. Expectations absolutely on the floor with some of these players. The way the English media has been banging on, you'd think England were 3-0 up and destroying Australia; not 1-2 down and hanging on for dear life.

by **Pal Joey** Tue 18 Jul 2023, 2:17 pm

alfie wrote:Well that's helpful of him ! Thanks , Pat... Now I can consider selections for PJ's competition with time to spare

Me too.

Thought I saw something today about Pat tinkering with the idea of opening the bowling with Hazlewood... and using Starc as first change. However, that's probably more mind games, yeah?

There's still time for Warner to step on a rake left near the nets. At least that would rid us of the annoying smile he's been carrying around of late. Anyway, what I'm saying is that some sort of forced change would be appreciated by some to prevent the inevitable from happening yet again. Smile

by Oakdene Tue 18 Jul 2023, 2:19 pm

Weather not looking great so may be on us to force a result....

by **Pal Joey** Tue 18 Jul 2023, 2:26 pm

Oakdene wrote:Weather not looking great so may be on us to force a result....

Always thought they should have played the 4th Test in Sardinia. A dry and fast outfield would help both sides play their natural games.

by Duty281 Tue 18 Jul 2023, 2:27 pm

First three days should be dry and should get full play in. That should, of course, mean 270 overs of play, but because over rates are apparently unimportant, more likely to be 255-260 overs. Saturday currently looks a washout. Sunday could go either way.

Might mean England will be even more aggressive with batting and possible declarations, we'll see. Could also open the door to a catastrophic collapse.

by **Pal Joey** Tue 18 Jul 2023, 2:33 pm

This just in now. Apparently they want both Green and Marsh in at the expense of Murphy.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/cricket/australia-may-drop-spinner-at-scene-of-warne-s-wonder-20230718-p5dpcj.html

by king_carlos Tue 18 Jul 2023, 2:38 pm

VTR wrote:Agree with that, there's always this line that the paying spectator is missing out if 90 overs aren't bowled. But to get to 90, it would often take some quick overs from part-timers, which is hardly riveting to watch. Or if it was the front line bowlers only you wouldn't really notice things happening roughly 10% more slowly than they should if only 80 overs are bowled. I felt far more short changed watching Luke Wright and Ravi Bopara open in a World T20 game

This is largely my view, as Soul also says, when it comes to punters being short changed. It's a view I've never really heard from fellow fans at the ground!!

My concern is playing conditions based. Having them be so changeable is just silly. My main concern if we get to 80 over a day Tests is the loss of the second new ball late in the evening session. That's a vital part of the game's fun and dynamic later on in many slow days. It's sometimes sacrosanct for cricket fans to admit that at times this sport can go long spells without much happening at time. But it is thus! On days like that dynamics such as a second new ball on the horizon are important.

Spoiler:

That was my fairly long post about the subject on the "Rest of the World" thread a wee bit back. I've spoilered as it's hefty but covers my long winded views.

The most important thing to keep in mind is that batters are as responsible as bowlers most the time. Yet almost all the proposed solutions are punishing the fielding side. If it's hot and batters are cooking in their pads they'll slow it down. If a bowler's on fire they slow it down. If a batter is new to the crease they are usually slower. If it's near a break they slow it down. If the conditions are perfect for bowling they'll slow it down.

The prevailing view seems to be it's the bowling side 99% of the time then very occasionally you get Jimmy and Monty batting out a draw at Cardiff whilst Bilal Shafayat runs right-handed gloves out for Jimmy and gets screamed at by Punter. It's far closer to 50/50 than most realise.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 18 Jul 2023, 3:49 pm

Torrential rain all day here in sunny Manchester.......

Credit to Old trafford if they get this thing going tomorrow.....Probably floods in some places..

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