Rugby World Cup - other team/games and general chat

by Sgt_Pooly Thu Sep 28, 2023 6:03 am

Carried on from.........

https://www.606v2.com/t71218-rugby-world-cup-other-team-games-and-general-chat

by Poorfour Thu Sep 28, 2023 6:37 am

I only saw it on replay, but what was the reasoning behind the Namibian yellow? It looked to me as if the tackler’s position was fully legal and the head contact only happened because the Uruguayan player dipped very late. It is baffling and concerning that that tackle and the fully upright Uruguayan one both attracted the same sanction, as to my eyes they were a world apart in terms of safety and technique.

by Lowlandbrit Thu Sep 28, 2023 6:56 am

doctor_grey wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:Reading the news today looks like World rugby is considering possibly expanding the 2027 World Cup to 24 teams from 20 teams. Would be a good move in terms of expanding the sport and viewing figures. A lot of the tier 2 nations have done very well considering the massive resource disparity.
Chile, USA, Canada are roughly the same level. Not sure where Spain is, but I suspect about the same. Leaves room for one other country. Would provide more tight matches but also more blowouts.

Spain were supposed to be here instead of Romania, so probably about the same as them. The regional Super franchise tournaments that have been set up to try and improve the second tier nations (where most of the Chile team play for instance) might end up being a useful guide:

Americas: Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Paraguay, Uruguay, USA
Europe: Belgium, Czechia, Georgia, Israel, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Romania

Out of that, in an expanded tournament, I'd expect USA to be pretty much certain (especially if MLR lasts) plus at least one of Canada, Chile and Uruguay. And then Georgia plus at least two from Spain, Portugal and Romania.

by TAFKA The Oracle Thu Sep 28, 2023 8:42 am

I've seen a lot written about the rankings and seedings and how that has led to a lopsided draw, groups of death, etc. The simple fact is that at any one time international rugby has around 10 top teams. Yes, they move around the rankings (some more so than others!) but 10 teams are there that could quite conceivable all beat each other on the day (maybe not the top 2, but maybe push them close). I'd class those teams currently as (in no particular order):

SA, NZ, Aus (yeah I know, but it's a really off year by their standards), Ireland, France, England, Scotland, Wales, Argentina, Fiji. Basically the 6N and the Rugby Championship, but with Italy out and Fiji in. You could make an argument for Italy too I guess.

So, just with simple maths, anytime we have 4 groups at the WC we're going to have at least 3 top teams in a group. And, if the other nations outside those 10 get stronger as World Rugby and the rugby public seem to want, then those groups of death are only going to get more deadly! Currently, the only way around it seems to be to move to 5 groups so that only 2 of those 'top' teams (highly subjective) are in each group. But 10 into 4 does not go neatly so we're always going to have a plucky extra team in a group causing problems for the top teams - e.g. a Wales or a Fiji Wink

by mikey_dragon Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:16 am

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:I've seen a lot written about the rankings and seedings and how that has led to a lopsided draw, groups of death, etc. The simple fact is that at any one time international rugby has around 10 top teams. Yes, they move around the rankings (some more so than others!) but 10 teams are there that could quite conceivable all beat each other on the day (maybe not the top 2, but maybe push them close). I'd class those teams currently as (in no particular order):

SA, NZ, Aus (yeah I know, but it's a really off year by their standards), Ireland, France, England, Scotland, Wales, Argentina, Fiji. Basically the 6N and the Rugby Championship, but with Italy out and Fiji in. You could make an argument for Italy too I guess.

So, just with simple maths, anytime we have 4 groups at the WC we're going to have at least 3 top teams in a group. And, if the other nations outside those 10 get stronger as World Rugby and the rugby public seem to want, then those groups of death are only going to get more deadly! Currently, the only way around it seems to be to move to 5 groups so that only 2 of those 'top' teams (highly subjective) are in each group. But 10 into 4 does not go neatly so we're always going to have a plucky extra team in a group causing problems for the top teams - e.g. a Wales or a Fiji

There's been a lot of chat about Wales getting the easiest draw. The route is straightforward for us but also a host of other teams, given NZ are due to play Ireland in the KO stages, and SA look likely to play France. The teams in Wales' pool are ranked close together so that was a tough pool, albeit Wales have improved and are now in complete control. In fairly recent times we lost to Aus and Georgia at home so it has all the makings of a tough/competitive pool.

I can think of one team who has a far easier draw but nobody seems to mention that...

by **Rugby Fan** Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:29 am

mikey_dragon wrote:I can think of one team who has a far easier draw but nobody seems to mention that...

If you mean England, then our advantageous draw has been mentioned incessantly since the day it was announced.

It's regarded as so favourable, pundits have been unsure what qualifies as a good showing in the tournament. It's quite possible for England to make the semi-final stage without facing a team ranked higher than them.

by Poorfour Thu Sep 28, 2023 10:20 am

Pools C & D were definitely much easier than Pools A & B, and I don't think from a home nations perspective there was much to choose between them up front.

Going into the 22-23 season, Wales had the toughest opponent in Australia, and on an historical basis would have been expected to lose to them, but would have been expected to beat Fiji, Georgia and Portugal and qualify fairly easily.

England would normally have expected a tough game against Argentina, a potential banana skin against Japan, but easier games against Samoa and Chile. So, more likely to top the group but more potential for a screw up.

Based on AI and 6N form, both sides looked very vulnerable, particularly with Fiji's resurgence and Argentina and Japan's history of raising themselves for the RWC. Both Fiji and Australia were ranked ahead of Wales...

mikey_dragon wrote:It's quite possible for England to make the semi-final stage without facing a team ranked higher than them.

...And sorry to rain on your (rodney) parade, mikey, but Argentina were ranked 2 places above England going into the RWC, so they beat a team ranked higher than them on the opening weekend.

In practice, both teams had scares of different kinds in their opening games. England looked in real trouble in the 3rd minute of the Argentina game, but took control of the game and showed that Borthwick's preparations had at least delivered the basics of fitness, defence, setpiece and tactical awareness. Wales were a bit lucky not to be shown a card earlier than they were and could still have lost at the death.

Both teams have grown into the tournament. England got their harder games out of the way up front; Wales's destruction of Australia was an impressive performance but given Eddie will have been well aware of Gatland's game plan up front it says quite a lot about him and his squad that he wasn't able to prepare them for it.

The reward for each side is likely to be a QF opponent ranked two places and 3-4 points behind them - but who were two places and a point or so ahead of them going into the tournament.

There's really not much to choose between the groups. But the real action will happen in the semifinals, barring another upset.

by **Rugby Fan** Thu Sep 28, 2023 10:51 am

Poorfour wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:It's quite possible for England to make the semi-final stage without facing a team ranked higher than them.

...And sorry to rain on your (rodney) parade, mikey, but Argentina were ranked 2 places above England going into the RWC, so they beat a team ranked higher than them on the opening weekend.

Mikey's blameless there, P, that was my mistake.

by Poorfour Thu Sep 28, 2023 10:59 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:It's quite possible for England to make the semi-final stage without facing a team ranked higher than them.

...And sorry to rain on your (rodney) parade, mikey, but Argentina were ranked 2 places above England going into the RWC, so they beat a team ranked higher than them on the opening weekend.

Mikey's blameless there, P, that was my mistake.

Fair dos. Very good of you to put your hand up. I'd still have written it though. Can't pass up the opportunity for a good pun.

by TAFKA The Oracle Thu Sep 28, 2023 2:11 pm

My point when raising this was just to point out that even if we used the current or fairly recent rankings you still get groups of death. With 4 groups of 5, the only way to avoid groups of death is to have only 8 top teams and then a huge gulf to the rest. But we've actually got 10 or 11. So rejig the groups and do them on recent rankings but you might end up with a NZ, Scotland and Wales or a France, England and Australia/Fiji. Still tough groups with the plucky lower ranked team still fancying their chances of qualifying.

In summary, move to 5 groups to avoid groups of death...... or just don't be surprised each 4 years that groups of death exist!

by formerly known as Sam Thu Sep 28, 2023 2:28 pm

I'll throw this out there. Groups of death are good for the competition. It means there's big match ups and hard fought games earlier in the competition which is great for casual or neutral fans. If you can pick out the teams likely to progress then it's not as interesting and if you can pick out the obvious top spot then even worse.

by mountain man Thu Sep 28, 2023 2:34 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I can think of one team who has a far easier draw but nobody seems to mention that...
If you mean England, then our advantageous draw has been mentioned incessantly since the day it was announced.

It's regarded as so favourable, pundits have been unsure what qualifies as a good showing in the tournament. It's quite possible for England to make the semi-final stage without facing a team ranked higher than them.

Argentina were ranked higher than England when they played in pool game.

by TAFKA The Oracle Thu Sep 28, 2023 2:55 pm

It's getting a bit boring for Wales at the world cups - so often in a group with Australia and Fiji! Mix it up a bit, World Rugby!

Wales, Fiji and Oz in same group:
2007
2015 (and England too. Strewth!)
2019
2023

Even 2011 we had Fiji, but with SA instead of Oz.

Funnily enough, I've just noticed that if you switch Uruguay for Portugal then Wales have got the same group in 2023 as 2019 with Georgia making up the same top 4 ranked teams in the group!

by TJ Thu Sep 28, 2023 4:41 pm

The group of death has wrexcked Scotlands chances in the WC and damaged both Ireland and NZ

its grossly unfair to have 3 of the top 5 in one pool and other pools with no one in the top half dozen.

It may be good for the neutral but its really spoilt this WC. England and Wales have such an easier route than Ireland / Scotland. Ireland in particular have 2 games against top opposition which will tire themand lead to more injuries compared to England

by carpet baboon Thu Sep 28, 2023 6:05 pm

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:It's getting a bit boring for Wales at the world cups - so often in a group with Australia and Fiji! Mix it up a bit, World Rugby!

Wales, Fiji and Oz in same group:
2007
2015 (and England too. Strewth!)
2019
2023

Even 2011 we had Fiji, but with SA instead of Oz.

Funnily enough, I've just noticed that if you switch Uruguay for Portugal then Wales have got the same group in 2023 as 2019 with Georgia making up the same top 4 ranked teams in the group!

Now 25 years ago I would have explained how that having the same opponents in every world cup isn't that unexpected statistically speaking.
But me today would butcher it, but I'm sure someone on here can do it more elegantly than I

by Heaf Thu Sep 28, 2023 6:58 pm

TJ wrote:The group of death has wrexcked Scotlands chances in the WC and damaged both Ireland and NZ

its grossly unfair to have 3 of the top 5 in one pool and other pools with no one in the top half dozen.

It may be good for the neutral but its really spoilt this WC. England and Wales have such an easier route than Ireland / Scotland. Ireland in particular have 2 games against top opposition which will tire themand lead to more injuries compared to England

Unfortunately not the first time, won't be the last if they keep picking the pools on rankings so far ahead ...

by Heaf Thu Sep 28, 2023 7:01 pm

2015 Pool A contained the 2nd, 3rd and 4th (Australia, England and Wales) ranked teams in the world ... don't remember much sympathy for England or Wales then ...

by mikey_dragon Thu Sep 28, 2023 7:10 pm

I thought they agreed to not pick the World Cup groups so far in advance from now on. Scotland definitely have a much tougher group than us and sadly I’m not sure they can make it through. France once qualified for the KO stages after losing two pool games, not sure what the situation was back then but if that gives the Scots hope…
I’d also like to not be grouped with Aus and Fiji for a change. 2011 was an interesting pool; SA, Wales, Samoa, Fiji, Namibia. Wales never has an easy group. It looks like England have the easiest this year, like 2011 all over again.

by mikey_dragon Thu Sep 28, 2023 7:10 pm

Heaf wrote:2015 Pool A contained the 2nd, 3rd and 4th (Australia, England and Wales) ranked teams in the world ... don't remember much sympathy for England or Wales then ...

No sympathy at all. It would be nice if we could get some sympathy for a change.

by Heaf Thu Sep 28, 2023 7:18 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Heaf wrote:2015 Pool A contained the 2nd, 3rd and 4th (Australia, England and Wales) ranked teams in the world ... don't remember much sympathy for England or Wales then ...

No sympathy at all. It would be nice if we could get some sympathy for a change.

by LeinsterFan4life Thu Sep 28, 2023 7:40 pm

Heaf wrote:2015 Pool A contained the 2nd, 3rd and 4th (Australia, England and Wales) ranked teams in the world ... don't remember much sympathy for England or Wales then ...

Ah cmon that's not the same, England were awful then... Run

by lostinwales Thu Sep 28, 2023 8:45 pm

Samoa just don't seem very good this year

by Heaf Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:13 pm

Off to the coin-flippers in the bunker then ....

by lostinwales Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:20 pm

Right decision, unfortunately

by Poorfour Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:23 pm

Rugby Fan / mikey_dragon wrote: It's quite possible for England to make the semi-final stage without facing a team ranked higher than them.

Of course, the teams that actually can make the semi-final - or even the final - without facing a team ranked higher them are Ireland and France, and the same is true of any RWC in which the #1 ranked team reached the final…

by Duty281 Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:56 pm

Three rubbish World Cups in a row for Samoa.

by Heaf Thu Sep 28, 2023 10:10 pm

lostinwales wrote:Right decision, unfortunately

Yep, makes you wonder how other very similar ones ended up yellow ...

by **RiscaGame** Thu Sep 28, 2023 10:12 pm

I said the other day, that not many pool games are grabbing my attention now, but I will look forward to Argentina v Japan now as well.

by lostinwales Thu Sep 28, 2023 10:53 pm

Duty281 wrote:Three rubbish World Cups in a row for Samoa.

They come across as competent and muscular but lacking a the kind of star power that would lift them to a higher level. I liked the 13 and McFarland, and the scrum half scored a cracking try in one of the earlier games, but there isn't much to get excited about

by TJ Fri Sep 29, 2023 8:37 am

The simple fact is that at any one time international rugby has around 10 top teams.

Errmmm - there are 4 top teams. A clear gulf between them and 5th ( scotland) then a clear gap from 6-10 in the world

by TAFKA The Oracle Fri Sep 29, 2023 8:49 am

TJ wrote:
The simple fact is that at any one time international rugby has around 10 top teams.

Errmmm - there are 4 top teams. A clear gulf between them and 5th ( scotland) then a clear gap from 6-10 in the world

Ermmmm. There are 2 top teams, if you want to go down that road. And of course, Scotland as the perennial number 1 ‘European and World Champion Dark Horses’ (TM).

by TAFKA The Oracle Fri Sep 29, 2023 9:12 am

TJ wrote:
The simple fact is that at any one time international rugby has around 10 top teams.

Errmmm - there are 4 top teams. A clear gulf between them and 5th ( scotland) then a clear gap from 6-10 in the world

Hang on a minute..... this gulf you talk of. What are you basing that on? World rankings?

by mikey_dragon Fri Sep 29, 2023 4:02 pm

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:
TJ wrote:
The simple fact is that at any one time international rugby has around 10 top teams.

Errmmm - there are 4 top teams. A clear gulf between them and 5th ( scotland) then a clear gap from 6-10 in the world

Ermmmm. There are 2 top teams, if you want to go down that road. And of course, Scotland as the perennial number 1 ‘European and World Champion Dark Horses’ (TM).

That's probably England or Wales now. Nobody really fancied either topping their pool. If all goes to plan, looks like they can get to the semi's and would fancy their chances even if it is against Ire, NZ, or France.

by LeinsterFan4life Fri Sep 29, 2023 8:19 pm

Penalty against Italy because a guy who is potentially concussed doesn't roll out of the way. More phenomenal reffing

by tigertattie Fri Sep 29, 2023 8:20 pm

Looks like NZ have woken up

by LeinsterFan4life Fri Sep 29, 2023 8:31 pm

There's the Italy we know Crying or Very sad

by king_carlos Fri Sep 29, 2023 8:37 pm

This is what the ABs side stacked with playmakers can do. Their backline is basically three excellent playmakers/kickers, three lightning wingers and Aaron Smith. When it clicks it can tear teams apart.

Frizell and Lomax returning in the pack is important too.

I quite fancy NZ in the KOs. France were narrow favourites going in, being at home and having the injuries they've been discussed a lot. The Ireland vs Boks game was one of the most engrossing I've seen and has naturally driven a lot of discussion. Whereas NZ have largely gone under the radar since that loss in R1. When these systems click they can beat anyone. They of course aren't as bulletproof as the all conquering AB sides. They are very dangerous though.

I just reckon Schmidt's planning combined with Smith, Mo'unga and Barrett x 2 executing it could see them score tries against anyone.

by Collapse2005 Fri Sep 29, 2023 8:39 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Penalty against Italy because a guy who is potentially concussed doesn't roll out of the way. More phenomenal reffing

Yeah Carley is half asleep in this game. Italy player tackled before he got the pass too and Carley calls a knock on. Italy very bad though.

by LeinsterFan4life Fri Sep 29, 2023 8:49 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:Penalty against Italy because a guy who is potentially concussed doesn't roll out of the way. More phenomenal reffing

Yeah Carley is half asleep in this game. Italy player tackled before he got the pass too and Carley calls a knock on. Italy very bad though.

His performance in the Wales Fiji game is the worst I've ever seen. I never thought of him as a poor ref before the tournament though.

by Collapse2005 Fri Sep 29, 2023 8:51 pm

Same here

by Duty281 Fri Sep 29, 2023 8:51 pm

Looks like NZ wanted to put a statement in. Most of the talk at this World Cup hasn't been about them, which is virtually unheard of, and they're trying to rectify that with a destructive performance.

Some of these tries have been magic. Some have been very ordinary defending. But they all count the same.

These QF games can't come round soon enough.

by **Galted** Fri Sep 29, 2023 9:42 pm

How on earth did Namibia lose to Italy?

by tigertattie Fri Sep 29, 2023 9:43 pm

by Duty281 Fri Sep 29, 2023 9:46 pm

First 100-pointer since New Zealand beat Portugal 108-13 in 2007 looks to be on its way.

It would be the 7th 100 point score in RWC history, with NZ getting it four times.

by Duty281 Fri Sep 29, 2023 9:52 pm

No 100-pointer. Italy get the last try.

Looking at the RWC history between these two nations, does anyone remember what happened in 1991? NZ won by 64 points in 1987, 98 points in 1999, 63 points in 2003, 62 points in 2007, and 79 points today...but the margin in 1991 was just 10.

by Collapse2005 Fri Sep 29, 2023 10:06 pm

Great win for NZ, thats a statement win alright. Maybe finding a bit of form at the right time.

by **RiscaGame** Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:29 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:Penalty against Italy because a guy who is potentially concussed doesn't roll out of the way. More phenomenal reffing

Yeah Carley is half asleep in this game. Italy player tackled before he got the pass too and Carley calls a knock on. Italy very bad though.
His performance in the Wales Fiji game is the worst I've ever seen. I never thought of him as a poor ref before the tournament though.

As long as you’re being neutral, yes it could be. Too many hang their hat on some kind of robbery, but I’ve already shared a link where there are two serious offences missed in Fiji’s favour.

by Lowlandbrit Sat Sep 30, 2023 9:45 am

Duty281 wrote:Three rubbish World Cups in a row for Samoa.

Bit worried for Samoa and Tonga with the current push to remove the league-style defending from the game to be honest.

by mikey_dragon Sat Sep 30, 2023 11:12 am

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:Penalty against Italy because a guy who is potentially concussed doesn't roll out of the way. More phenomenal reffing

Yeah Carley is half asleep in this game. Italy player tackled before he got the pass too and Carley calls a knock on. Italy very bad though.
His performance in the Wales Fiji game is the worst I've ever seen. I never thought of him as a poor ref before the tournament though.

Guess who is reffing you in the quarter final? Wink

by mikey_dragon Sat Sep 30, 2023 11:14 am

Lowlandbrit wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Three rubbish World Cups in a row for Samoa.
Bit worried for Samoa and Tonga with the current push to remove the league-style defending from the game to be honest.

Both Samoa and Tonga have been rubbish. I expected a lot better from them with the players available. Contrast with Fiji who have been very good so far - perhaps the result of hiring good coaches over the years.

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