Re: England Getting Four Wins in the Six Nations - A New Thread

[Geordie]

First topic message reminder :

2 tries for Hartley at 12 .

Fdjour decent first scrum then missed some tackles etc.
Sales two wingers Reed and Roebuck were very impressive....

Bath v Cardiff now...lots of potential England options here.

[mountain man]

As in Theo Dan who isn't a starter, and wasn't trusted by Borthwick yes. It's bound to be LCD and George again anyway.

I'm not overly fussed in terms of the midfield either way tbf.

Has LCD played under Borthwick for Eng? I think Theo Dan will be in squad and should be. He's good enough and also needs to be as part of build towards next RWC.

[No 7&1/2]

As in Theo Dan who isn't a starter, and wasn't trusted by Borthwick yes. It's bound to be LCD and George again anyway.

I'm not overly fussed in terms of the midfield either way tbf.

Has LCD played under Borthwick for Eng? I think Theo Dan will be in squad and should be. He's good enough and also needs to be as part of build towards next RWC.

No. He's been unavailable. But with Dan not trusted I'd be surprised should he not be there.

[No 7&1/2]

In other news the A team (coaches) have been announced. Skivington as head, Waldouck as defence, Vesty as attack. Borthwick will pick the side.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Well, we'll let you borrow him for a short while (Vesty), just don't get any ideas when a second team of scratch players, only together for a few weeks, look better and more co-ordinated than the 1st team that will have been together for months, if not years for some and will have an attack plan they can all play to.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

I have just noticed how much Skivington looks like a bigger version of Jason Statham.

[No 7&1/2]

Well, we'll let you borrow him for a short while (Vesty), just don't get any ideas when a second team of scratch players, only together for a few weeks, look better and more co-ordinated than the 1st team that will have been together for months, if not years for some and will have an attack plan they can all play to.

It's an interesting one in a way as Borthwick has talked about England having an identity. Now for me that would mean a consistent approach across development sides including the A team, but how does that fit with the one off approaches that are taken with this side (currently). Do you say pick these players and let them go their own way with how. Or impose that tactical plan too?

[Geordie]

Funnily enough i was sat next the sale squad at Manchester Airport on Sunday...LCD isn't as big as I expected...towered over him.

It'll be interesting to see if he is in the squad. Dan and George I expect to be there.

Who will the A game hookers be. Gotta look at the next gen I think ...

[WELL-PAST-IT]

I cannot see Sam looking to play the way England have to date with Borthwick, it is an anathema to him. He will want to keep the ball in hand a lot more and look to contest the ball at the breakdown in that manner Borthwick has instilled. There must be some agreement as to how he is going to coach the Saxons and presumably England will follow or it makes no sense.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Funnily enough i was sat next the sale squad at Manchester Airport on Sunday...LCD isn't as big as I expected...towered over him.

It'll be interesting to see if he is in the squad. Dan and George I expect to be there.

Who will the A game hookers be. Gotta look at the next gen I think ...

I know it is another Saint, but Langdon is the form hooker in the Prem at the moment, he has to be there or thereabouts.

[No 7&1/2]

Funnily enough i was sat next the sale squad at Manchester Airport on Sunday...LCD isn't as big as I expected...towered over him.

It'll be interesting to see if he is in the squad. Dan and George I expect to be there.

Who will the A game hookers be. Gotta look at the next gen I think ...

Well he was probably the better hooker than George prior to injury and with Borthwick giving little to no time in any meaningful game it would seem logical he's straight back.

[No 7&1/2]

The problem with a lot of the form picks are that they are looming good in vastly different systems to England's.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Funnily enough i was sat next the sale squad at Manchester Airport on Sunday...LCD isn't as big as I expected...towered over him.

It'll be interesting to see if he is in the squad. Dan and George I expect to be there.

Who will the A game hookers be. Gotta look at the next gen I think ...

Well he was probably the better hooker than George prior to injury and with Borthwick giving little to no time in any meaningful game it would seem logical he's straight back.

What if George is skipper..........................No point in having LCD to put him of for 5 minutes.

[formerly known as Sam]

As in Theo Dan who isn't a starter, and wasn't trusted by Borthwick yes. It's bound to be LCD and George again anyway.

I'm not overly fussed in terms of the midfield either way tbf.

Has LCD played under Borthwick for Eng? I think Theo Dan will be in squad and should be. He's good enough and also needs to be as part of build towards next RWC.

No. He's been unavailable. But with Dan not trusted I'd be surprised should he not be there.

Was Dan untrusted? He went from an uncapped and unfancied selection to playing in the world cup and starting the third place play off. Borthwick preferred the far more experienced Lions Test hooker Jamie George but for somewhat obvious reasons.

[No 7&1/2]

As in Theo Dan who isn't a starter, and wasn't trusted by Borthwick yes. It's bound to be LCD and George again anyway.

I'm not overly fussed in terms of the midfield either way tbf.

Has LCD played under Borthwick for Eng? I think Theo Dan will be in squad and should be. He's good enough and also needs to be as part of build towards next RWC.

No. He's been unavailable. But with Dan not trusted I'd be surprised should he not be there.

Was Dan untrusted? He went from an uncapped and unfancied selection to playing in the world cup and starting the third place play off. Borthwick preferred the far more experienced Lions Test hooker Jamie George but for somewhat obvious reasons.

Yes pretty clearly. Hence getting little game time.

[formerly known as Sam]

I cannot see Sam looking to play the way England have to date with Borthwick, it is an anathema to him. He will want to keep the ball in hand a lot more and look to contest the ball at the breakdown in that manner Borthwick has instilled. There must be some agreement as to how he is going to coach the Saxons and presumably England will follow or it makes no sense.

Borthwick isn't anti attacking rugby, he's just risk averse and so you play in the opposition half of the pitch mostly. There was a game Vs Glaws when Tigers went in with a strategy of playing wide in their own half to take advantage of Glaws dropping their wingers very deep and defending narrow.

Skivington is head coach because he likes a set piece orientated game and will bring similar to Borthwick in that regard. Vesty is a pretty versatile attack coach. Saints play more territory and targeted attack this season than in prior years where it was more all out attack. At Worcester Vesty made a lot of first phase strike moves and heavy phase play close to the line.

I'm hoping Vesty being involved here will see him do some consultancy work with England in the future, maybe joining up for a summer tour or similar. England's attack really does need a lot of work.

[formerly known as Sam]

As in Theo Dan who isn't a starter, and wasn't trusted by Borthwick yes. It's bound to be LCD and George again anyway.

I'm not overly fussed in terms of the midfield either way tbf.

Has LCD played under Borthwick for Eng? I think Theo Dan will be in squad and should be. He's good enough and also needs to be as part of build towards next RWC.

No. He's been unavailable. But with Dan not trusted I'd be surprised should he not be there.

Was Dan untrusted? He went from an uncapped and unfancied selection to playing in the world cup and starting the third place play off. Borthwick preferred the far more experienced Lions Test hooker Jamie George but for somewhat obvious reasons.

Yes pretty clearly. Hence getting little game time.

If he didn't fancy him then why not name one of the already capped hookers instead? Why play him in the third place game? Borthwick clearly liked what he saw and wanted to develop him and use him as a impact option. Unfortunately in games like Vs SA having a small hooker with the scrum under pressure wasn't a great option.

[No 7&1/2]

As in Theo Dan who isn't a starter, and wasn't trusted by Borthwick yes. It's bound to be LCD and George again anyway.

I'm not overly fussed in terms of the midfield either way tbf.

Has LCD played under Borthwick for Eng? I think Theo Dan will be in squad and should be. He's good enough and also needs to be as part of build towards next RWC.

No. He's been unavailable. But with Dan not trusted I'd be surprised should he not be there.

Was Dan untrusted? He went from an uncapped and unfancied selection to playing in the world cup and starting the third place play off. Borthwick preferred the far more experienced Lions Test hooker Jamie George but for somewhat obvious reasons.

Yes pretty clearly. Hence getting little game time.

If he didn't fancy him then why not name one of the already capped hookers instead? Why play him in the third place game? Borthwick clearly liked what he saw and wanted to develop him and use him as a impact option. Unfortunately in games like Vs SA having a small hooker with the scrum under pressure wasn't a great option.

Don't know. Bizarre decision wasn't it. 3rd place game because no one cares about it Sam.

[doctor_grey]

Which teams will the Saxons play this year? I saw they will play Portugal. Anyone else?

[mountain man]

I disagree, I think both England and Argentina wanted that 3rd place. To say no one cared is wrong.

[No 7&1/2]

I disagree, I think both England and Argentina wanted that 3rd place. To say no one cared is wrong.

Even more reason to sack him then. Why did he weaken the team so much?

[No 7&1/2]

Which teams will the Saxons play this year?  I saw they will play Portugal.  Anyone else?

Just Portugal. On an expertise related note Ford has a low grade mcl....is that bad or hood for playing in 3 weeks?

[mountain man]

I disagree, I think both England and Argentina wanted that 3rd place. To say no one cared is wrong.

Even more reason to sack him then. Why did he weaken the team so much?

They won though. A different team could have lost, who knows.

[No 7&1/2]

I disagree, I think both England and Argentina wanted that 3rd place. To say no one cared is wrong.

Even more reason to sack him then. Why did he weaken the team so much?

They won though. A different team could have lost, who knows.

Lol. Come now.

[formerly known as Sam]

I disagree, I think both England and Argentina wanted that 3rd place. To say no one cared is wrong.

Even more reason to sack him then. Why did he weaken the team so much?

They won though. A different team could have lost, who knows.

Lol. Come now.

As an international coach you are judged on your results. Borthwick got the result in the third place game whilst also exposing a couple of younger players to a high profile international game with silverware (of sorts) on offer.

It was Chieka's last game as Puma coach, he wanted to go out on a high.

[No 7&1/2]

I disagree, I think both England and Argentina wanted that 3rd place. To say no one cared is wrong.

Even more reason to sack him then. Why did he weaken the team so much?

They won though. A different team could have lost, who knows.

Lol. Come now.

As an international coach you are judged on your results. Borthwick got the result in the third place game whilst also exposing a couple of younger players to a high profile international game with silverware (of sorts) on offer.

It was Chieka's last game as Puma coach, he wanted to go out on a high.

Very true. 0 out of 2 for Borthwick so far.

[Geordie]

Does Borthwick pick the coaches for the A game? If he does then surely picking Vesty shows he DOES are attacking flair. He was assistant to Eddie for too long not to disregard an attack.

[No 7&1/2]

Doubtful he picks the coaches for the a game. It'll be down to who is available for a 1 off and you wouldn't expect any coachbto be in charge of appointments to other levels. And he's not disregarding the attack,he has the attack he wants.

[Geordie]

Well Brantingham is confirmed to Saracens (potentially from immediately)...so with Marler and Genge out I expect Obano, Baxter and Brantingham as the LHs...

[formerly known as Sam]

Does Borthwick pick the coaches for the A game? If he does then surely picking Vesty shows he DOES are attacking flair. He was assistant to Eddie for too long not to disregard an attack.

He probably has an input. The RFU has someone who's job it is to stay in contact with EQ coaches in the system and assist their development. I'm sure they'd have reached out to a few and given O'Shea and Borthwick some options to choose from.

Given there's two Prem head coaches included in the three it suggests there was pretty good options made available.

[formerly known as Sam]

Well Brantingham is confirmed to Saracens (potentially from immediately)...so with Marler and Genge out I expect Obano, Baxter and Brantingham as the LHs...

I've heard a rumour he's one of two young Falcons prospects heading to Sarries. The other wasn't named though.

I thought Genge was due to be back just in time? Getting Baxter and Brantingham in the squad and getting A team or first team action makes sense.

[Geordie]

Well Brantingham is confirmed to Saracens (potentially from immediately)...so with Marler and Genge out I expect Obano, Baxter and Brantingham as the LHs...

I've heard a rumour he's one of two young Falcons prospects heading to Sarries. The other wasn't named though.

I thought Genge was due to be back just in time? Getting Baxter and Brantingham in the squad and getting A team or first team action makes sense.

Sam if the other is Pepper i think that will be game over up here.

[doctor_grey]

Which teams will the Saxons play this year?  I saw they will play Portugal.  Anyone else?

Just Portugal. On an expertise related note Ford has a low grade mcl....is that bad or hood for playing in 3 weeks?

Only Portugal - almost seems a waste.  In addition, during the 6 Nations I would really like them to play Ireland A (Wolfhounds) and/or Scotland A as well. But don't know if those teams have been reconstituted or not.

For the mcl, a lot depends, but in general describing it as a 'low grade mcl' doesn't tell us much.  If it is a low grade mcl sprain, which I guess is likely, then I would certainly be optimistic.

[mountain man]

I disagree, I think both England and Argentina wanted that 3rd place. To say no one cared is wrong.

Even more reason to sack him then. Why did he weaken the team so much?

They won though. A different team could have lost, who knows.

Lol. Come now.

Why "lol"? That's the thing about actual results, we know what happened. In this case Eng won match and came 3rd in RWC. Quite possibly any team Borthwick picked might have also won but crucially we and you don't know that because it didn't happen.


Honestly, your continued campaign about Borthwick isn't helping anyone. He isn't going anywhere, even if Eng lose every 6N game I'd be really surprised if he went either by his own accord or RFU. I'm not thrilled by what I've seen so far but I'm realistic to know it's highly unlikely to change for at least another year at earliest so that's it.

[No 7&1/2]

I disagree, I think both England and Argentina wanted that 3rd place. To say no one cared is wrong.

Even more reason to sack him then. Why did he weaken the team so much?

They won though. A different team could have lost, who knows.

Lol. Come now.

Why "lol"? That's the thing about actual results, we know what happened. In this case Eng won match and came 3rd in RWC. Quite possibly any team Borthwick picked might have also won but crucially we and you don't know that because it didn't happen.


Honestly, your continued campaign about Borthwick isn't helping anyone. He isn't going anywhere, even if Eng lose every 6N game I'd be really surprised if he went either by his own accord or RFU. I'm not thrilled by what I've seen so far but I'm realistic to know it's highly unlikely to change for at least another year at earliest so that's it.

Because its silly to suggest that Borthwick was treating that game as important. This point is about the lack of trust given to Dan in any game that was important and the 3rd place being used to suggest that's not true. That team does not line up the way it does if we'd have made the final,pretending it does is why there is a lol there.

Yes Borthwick isn't good enough but it is not my point here.

[mountain man]

Borthwick said it was important as is every game, in that he differs from Jones who always had jam tomorrow approach which eventually made supporters and media turn against him. So we can only take Borthwick at his word.

I agree a different team would likely been fielded for final but that doesn't mean the 3/4 place play wasn't taken seriously.

In 6N coming up, England "should" beat Italy(I know you think they might not) so does that mean Borthwick won't take that match as serious as he will say Scotland or France?

[No 7&1/2]

Do I think he will potentially try players against Itlay that he wouldn't trust to start against say France?absolutely. I don't think that's even coming close to controversial.

[mountain man]

Again the trust word. If a coach doesn't trust a player he wouldn't play him that much is surely obvious.
Borthwick might well think Jamie George is his 1st choice hooker(I reckon he'll be capt) but to say he then doesn't trust Dan is a stretch.

By that mark any player who is on bench isn't trusted? I don't think so.

[No 7&1/2]

Again the trust word. If a coach doesn't trust a player he wouldn't play him that much is surely obvious.
Borthwick might well think Jamie George is his 1st choice hooker(I reckon he'll be capt) but to say he then doesn't trust Dan is a stretch.

By that mark any player who is on bench isn't trusted? I don't think so.

George was blowing out his arse at points in the world cup mm and Dan wasnt brought on or got very minimal time. And that's the reason I think he will quickly revert to lcd.

[formerly known as Sam]

I disagree, I think both England and Argentina wanted that 3rd place. To say no one cared is wrong.

Even more reason to sack him then. Why did he weaken the team so much?

They won though. A different team could have lost, who knows.

Lol. Come now.

Why "lol"? That's the thing about actual results, we know what happened. In this case Eng won match and came 3rd in RWC. Quite possibly any team Borthwick picked might have also won but crucially we and you don't know that because it didn't happen.


Honestly, your continued campaign about Borthwick isn't helping anyone. He isn't going anywhere, even if Eng lose every 6N game I'd be really surprised if he went either by his own accord or RFU. I'm not thrilled by what I've seen so far but I'm realistic to know it's highly unlikely to change for at least another year at earliest so that's it.

Because its silly to suggest that Borthwick was treating that game as important. This point is about the lack of trust given to Dan in any game that was important and the 3rd place being used to suggest that's not true. That team does not line up the way it does if we'd have made the final,pretending it does is why there is a lol there.

Yes Borthwick isn't good enough but it is not my point here.

I think you're letting your hatred of Borthwick cloud your judgement.

Of course he'd have picked a different team for the final, we'd have been playing New Zealand and not Argentina. Borthwick picked a side to trouble Argentina and we won.

Now we might bring LCD back in but LCD is an experienced operator, much like George. Plenty of England caps, started tests for the Lions, won the Prem, won the European Cup etc. LCD is only 30 as well so at that age he could make the next world cup.

Against Italy first up we might go LCD and Dan as George has a small injury which should heal in time for the tournament but as it goes on reverting to George and LCD wouldn't be a surprise, particularly given how strong the Irish and French scrums are.

[No 7&1/2]

I disagree, I think both England and Argentina wanted that 3rd place. To say no one cared is wrong.

Even more reason to sack him then. Why did he weaken the team so much?

They won though. A different team could have lost, who knows.

Lol. Come now.

Why "lol"? That's the thing about actual results, we know what happened. In this case Eng won match and came 3rd in RWC. Quite possibly any team Borthwick picked might have also won but crucially we and you don't know that because it didn't happen.


Honestly, your continued campaign about Borthwick isn't helping anyone. He isn't going anywhere, even if Eng lose every 6N game I'd be really surprised if he went either by his own accord or RFU. I'm not thrilled by what I've seen so far but I'm realistic to know it's highly unlikely to change for at least another year at earliest so that's it.

Because its silly to suggest that Borthwick was treating that game as important. This point is about the lack of trust given to Dan in any game that was important and the 3rd place being used to suggest that's not true. That team does not line up the way it does if we'd have made the final,pretending it does is why there is a lol there.

Yes Borthwick isn't good enough but it is not my point here.

I think you're letting your hatred of Borthwick cloud your judgement.

Of course he'd have picked a different team for the final, we'd have been playing New Zealand and not Argentina. Borthwick picked a side to trouble Argentina and we won.

Now we might bring LCD back in but LCD is an experienced operator, much like George. Plenty of England caps, started tests for the Lions, won the Prem, won the European Cup etc. LCD is only 30 as well so at that age he could make the next world cup.

Against Italy first up we might go LCD and Dan as George has a small injury which should heal in time for the tournament but as it goes on reverting to George and LCD wouldn't be a surprise, particularly given how strong the Irish and French scrums are.

I don't hate him. Just think he produces boring teams.

But i think you're letting your love of Borthwick blind you slightly that in the big games when push came to suite he kept George on the pitch to the last possible moment.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

It is very rare that I agree with 71/2, but Dan did appear to be the "In Case of Emergency, Break Glass" replacement during the RWC. I wondered why, as in the game time he did get, he didn't look out of place.

With the likes of Langdon and others looking good in the Premiership, he may struggle to get a place in the squad now.

[Mr Bounce]

It is very rare that I agree with 71/2, but Dan did appear to be the "In Case of Emergency, Break Glass" replacement during the RWC. I wondered why, as in the game time he did get, he didn't look out of place.

With the likes of Langdon and others looking good in the Premiership, he may struggle to get a place in the squad now.

Maybe so, but I get the impression that if SB likes you and you're not broken, you're not leaving the squad. Dan is now a proven quantity, and is also still performing for Saracens, one of the bigger and more successful clubs in the Prem. I don't see Borthwick getting rid of him. Jack Walker, however, is, unfortunately for him, just a squad filler. He'll be gone.

I am more interested in the back row make up. I think there are some fascinating calls to be made, and with the likes of Tom Curry injured long term and Courtney retired, spots at 6, 7 and 8 are all up for grabs. Will Ludlam be selected as he won't be in the plans after this season?, However if Billy V gets selected, I may need to reach for the sane pills again. From an international perspective and after his somewhat ineffective RWC appearances, he's pretty much a done deal and surplus to requirements. Let's see what the young 'uns can do now.

I'd like to see Ben Curry, Tom Pearson, Alfie Barbeary, Zach Mercer, and Chandler Cunningham South (as well as the more established players such as Earl and Underhill) in or around the squad as "newbies" (I know 3 of them have a couple of caps) to get an idea of what they can do. Let's look to the future, not the past.

[No 7&1/2]

Mako retires. What a player he has been for England. And the Lions.

[Mr Bounce]

A magnificent England servant, and although his scrummaging wasn't the greatest, his work in the loose was unparalleled.

I always worried about him against the best scrummagers, but Lions and England selectors knew what they were doing.

Plus he always had the uncanny look of appearing to be at least 20 years older than he actually was! Happy retirement Mako.

[king_carlos]

I think it's easy to forget how good Mako was at his peak as he struggled a bit towards the end, after injury. A brilliant ball carrier capable of turning slow ball into quick ball by making yards after contact against a set defence - a rare skill against modern defences. He was routinely putting up tackle counts in the high teens at a time when very few props were. His line speed was outstanding for a prop as well. It was a huge tackle count, predominantly behind the gain line. Then he had such good hands he was used as a first receiver to shift attacking focus on the gain line.

Looking back to when he started doing that, there were so few combining those things. A player such as Gethin Jenkins had that huge work rate defensively but wasn't carrying in traffic the same way. Cian Healy was a phenomenal ball carrier in his earlier years but not a notable defender. The most mobile ABs prop back then was probably Owen Franks. Big work rate but not that same impact in the loose.

9 consecutive Lions tests across 3 successive tours shows how he was valued beyond England too, with whom he of course won 3 Six Nations titles. Plus the three Champions Cups as an invaluable cog in Sarries at their peak. It's an wonderful career.

Thinking about England looseheads from the pro era. His longevity certainly elevates him above Woodman. Sheridan could be destructive in the scrum but due to his height could also get smashed from time to time. Mako certainly has Big Ted too for me. His peak was certainly higher than Marler's as well I'd say.

Corbisiero could have been exceptional, and briefly was, but sadly injury prevented him showing it long term. We'll never know if he'd have translated that destructive scrummaging into the period after the hit was removed either. Dominating that engagement was really his USP. Many THs did that but not as many LHs could, hence a lot of THs looked pretty confused when Corbs smashed into them on engage.

Going back further than Woodman takes you to Leonard and Rowntree. Wig actually playing beyond Woodman but in style he was more that amateur era player who crossed over to my memory. Comparing any players who came through the amateur era to more recent ones is always tough, bordering on pointless. That's especially so with tight five forwards. The game has just changed so much for those positions. Martin Johnson for instance was an absolute titan, a magnificent player and would've had the drive to make himself great in any era. Leonard I'd probably have at LH in England's all time XV if I had to pick one. If you just transplanted Johnno or the funbus exactly as they were into a modern game they'd be moving in treacle though. Realistically, the expected work rate in the loose for a tight five forward then was simply incomparable. In the amateur era the average tackles and carries combined most teams were making was around 135. At the latest RWC it was pushing 300. It's a different sport in reality.

Considering Mako's trophy count, longevity and the Lions success I think it's hard to say there's been many more successful England LHs. I think it's a good time to walk away too. He's not the force he was and England have talented options on that side of the scrum. I wish him all the best and have very fond memories of him at his peak. The best rugby I've seen England play since 2003, by a mile, was during the first 4 years of the Jones reign. Mako was as integral to many of those best performances as any.

[Geordie]

Jeff Probyn?

[formerly known as Sam]

Mako never was the greatest scrimmaged but he's was often solid enough. As KC says his work rate was outrageous for a man his size and a lot of backs would be happy with his handling skills. He really did give the attack of Sarries and England a different dynamic entirely stood at first receiver. Many have tried to copy it but few have come close.

It's the right time for him to retire though, more tightheads are getting after him at scrum time now and he suffering because of it.

[king_carlos]

Jeff Probyn?

As said, I stopped really bothering with comparison at Leonard and Wig as I just think the game has changed so much since the amateur era. Even players such as that who straddled the divide tended to be a very different style to guys who predominantly developed in the pro era such as Woodman and Vickery.

No doubt Probyn was a terrific player by all reports, albeit before my time.

I think there are sometimes such standouts from the amateur era that comparisons become inevitable. The recently departed JPR was years ahead of his time of course. Tim Horan was unbelievable, the best 12 I've seen compared to their peers - the YT compilation of his debut is fun by the way, he really does look like a pro amongst amateurs in many ways. Jonah of course had an impact on rugby that arguably still hasn't been matched. They're rare though. Plus Horan and Lomu are at that very tail end of amateur where it crossed over. It's just such a different sport now.

It's why I generally stray away from all time XV type discussions. I remember being in a pub around Murrayfield about 10 years ago and a group my age (student at the time) but clearly less obsessed by the game than me were discussing Scotland's best ever team. They got to tighthead and stalled, someone suggested Euan Murray. I momentarily was about to go postal then remembered that many my age might not have heard of Scotland and Lions giant Iain Milne.

[Geordie]

Yeah some outstanding players in the amateur era. Horan was unreal and so was his partner Little. Walter Little for NZ and Frank Bunce...wow.

Probyn was tremendous...remember watching a pre game england build up and rhe cameras were in the changing room and he did a handstand up against the wall and popped out 10 handstand press ups...quality move.

Ian Milne class ha ha...Scotland had some great players in that era.

[Geordie]

7.5s going to have a heart attack when Furbanks picked for thw England squad.

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