Re: England Getting Four Wins in the Six Nations - A New Thread

[Geordie]

First topic message reminder :

2 tries for Hartley at 12 .

Fdjour decent first scrum then missed some tackles etc.
Sales two wingers Reed and Roebuck were very impressive....

Bath v Cardiff now...lots of potential England options here.

[lostinwales]

Wouldn't be at all surprised to see Smith (M) at 15 and Smith (F) at FH. Could be fun although it almost guarantees Daly/Steward on the wings

[Geordie]

Roebuck was excellent at the weekend.

[No 7&1/2]

Both Smiths appearing in the top 5 points scorers for the Champios Cup.

Ramos 55.
M Smith 51
Hastoy 49
F Smith 47
Le Garrec 41.

You'd have to say that some of the top individual performances have been given to us by English qualified players so far.

[doctor_grey]

I would think at this point Marcus deserves the start and Fin comes on later. Someone had suggested (don't recall where I saw or who said it) it would be interesting to pair Care with Marcus and Mitchell with Fin. Not sure if that is needed, but more likely to be fun for a while.

[Geordie]

Id be gping with Marcus now for this 6n...but I was wondering if SB will go with the club route of Mitchell and Fin....and Fin is probably more of a SB 10...

[Geordie]

I see Feyi Waboso qualifies through grandparents rule..his paternal grandmother was born on Gloucester.

Meh...awful rule. He's Welsh as can be...should be on Wales...but the Welsh HQ messed up totally.

[TJ]

gordie - England have been poaching Scots as well!

[lostinwales]

gordie - England have been poaching Scots as well!

This is going to turn into one of those stupid arguments when we go on to ask you who we have supposed to have poached from the Scots and you'll come out with some rubbish about a guy who was born and brought up in England but with Scottish parents.

To which the only responsible argument will be to mention the 100% English lad (whose name escapes me right now) who was capped based on being born North of the border when his dad was briefly posted there as part of his military career.

[Geordie]

gordie - England have been poaching Scots as well!

So your going to say Roebuck are you?

[No 7&1/2]

If you qualify you qualify. It's all good.

[Poorfour]

gordie - England have been poaching Scots as well!

This is going to turn into one of those stupid arguments when we go on to ask you who we have supposed to have poached from the Scots and you'll come out with some rubbish about a guy who was born and brought up in England but with Scottish parents.

To which the only responsible argument will be to mention the 100% English lad (whose name escapes me right now) who was capped based on being born North of the border when his dad was briefly posted there as part of his military career.

The one I remember was Budge Pountney, who played for and captained Scotland on the basis that his family always maintained that one grandad was Scottish. Until it turned out that he wasn’t, and Budge had to stand down until he’d qualified on residency.

[TJ]

Budge Pountney qualified on grounds that he had a grandmother from the channel islands and therefore can pick any one of the home nations IIRC

It was just a tease - there are a bunch of guys who can qualify for either Scotland or England - some chose Scotland some England, Fin Smith we were hoping to get but he picked England. Cam Redpath we got Ruaridh McConnochie is another - Scots name and qualifies for Scotland etc etc

[Rugby Fan]

The one I remember was Budge Pountney, who played for and captained Scotland on the basis that his family always maintained that one grandad was Scottish. Until it turned out that he wasn’t, and Budge had to stand down until he’d qualified on residency.

Pountney had no Scottish grandparents. It was a Channel Islands connection. If you have CI or Isle of Man parents or grandparents, then you are eligible for all the Home Unions. He always played for Saints, so never qualified on residency grounds.

[TJ]

personally I think qualification should be tighter and that the rule that allows someone to change allegiance after 3 years without a cap should only be from tier one to tier two nations.

Residence qualification should be based on age ie 3 years if under 18 when moved 5 years if older

This would reduce Scotlands pool of players mind you

[mikey_dragon]

I see Feyi Waboso qualifies through grandparents rule..his paternal grandmother was born on Gloucester.  

Meh...awful rule. He's Welsh as can be...should be on Wales...but the Welsh HQ messed up totally.

Grannygate with Feyi-Waboso eh, glad that's finally cleared up!

[BigGee]

gordie - England have been poaching Scots as well!

This is going to turn into one of those stupid arguments when we go on to ask you who we have supposed to have poached from the Scots and you'll come out with some rubbish about a guy who was born and brought up in England but with Scottish parents.

To which the only responsible argument will be to mention the 100% English lad (whose name escapes me right now) who was capped based on being born North of the border when his dad was briefly posted there as part of his military career.

The one I remember was Budge Pountney, who played for and captained Scotland on the basis that his family always maintained that one grandad was Scottish. Until it turned out that he wasn’t, and Budge had to stand down until he’d qualified on residency.

That was Dave Hilton, the Bristol Butcher.

After he stood down, he did actually move up to Scotland and re-qualify on residence. Playing for Scotland meant a lot to him and I think he genuinely beleived his grandfather was Scots born.

No-one was checking to carefully back then, there were a few Welsh players as well if I remember who also qualified erroneously.

After that I imagine, some paper proof was required and not word of mouth.

[No 7&1/2]

I am still annoyed the last 5Ns wasn't given to England as a grand slam though.

[Geordie]

I see Feyi Waboso qualifies through grandparents rule..his paternal grandmother was born on Gloucester.  

Meh...awful rule. He's Welsh as can be...should be on Wales...but the Welsh HQ messed up totally.

Grannygate with Feyi-Waboso eh, glad that's finally cleared up!

Welsh really shouldnt throw stones to be fair....

[mikey_dragon]

I see Feyi Waboso qualifies through grandparents rule..his paternal grandmother was born on Gloucester.  

Meh...awful rule. He's Welsh as can be...should be on Wales...but the Welsh HQ messed up totally.

Grannygate with Feyi-Waboso eh, glad that's finally cleared up!

Welsh really shouldnt throw stones to be fair....

What, we've never done anything of the sort...

[Recwatcher16]

gordie - England have been poaching Scots as well!

This is going to turn into one of those stupid arguments when we go on to ask you who we have supposed to have poached from the Scots and you'll come out with some rubbish about a guy who was born and brought up in England but with Scottish parents.

To which the only responsible argument will be to mention the 100% English lad (whose name escapes me right now) who was capped based on being born North of the border when his dad was briefly posted there as part of his military career.

Are you thinking of Tom Heathcote ?? Came through the Bath academy and was considered to be as talented as George Ford but he didn't get the game time and he was born near Inverness as his father was in the RAF and briefly based there.
Andy Robinson picked up on it and turned his head with a Scottish cap and as no longer EQ left Bath and got a contract at I think Edinburgh, which didn't seem to work out. Ended up at Worcester and left the game early still in his twenties. A talent wasted.

[lostinwales]

gordie - England have been poaching Scots as well!

This is going to turn into one of those stupid arguments when we go on to ask you who we have supposed to have poached from the Scots and you'll come out with some rubbish about a guy who was born and brought up in England but with Scottish parents.

To which the only responsible argument will be to mention the 100% English lad (whose name escapes me right now) who was capped based on being born North of the border when his dad was briefly posted there as part of his military career.

Are you thinking of Tom Heathcote ?? Came through the Bath academy and was considered to be as talented as George Ford but he didn't get the game time and he was born near Inverness as his father was in the RAF and briefly based there.
Andy Robinson picked up on it and turned his head with a Scottish cap and as no longer EQ left Bath and got a contract at I think Edinburgh, which didn't seem to work out. Ended up at Worcester and left the game early still in his twenties.  A talent wasted.

That's the one. Cheers.

[mountain man]

Ah back on the eligibility treadmill, that's makes a nice change.

Until law changed to make it can only play for nation through parent and eliminate residency completely this will go on and on and on.

We can all quote dozens of examples of he/she shouldnt play for X but basically it is what it is. Players and teams will make decisions based on who they can get and what's best for career.

[BigGee]

gordie - England have been poaching Scots as well!

This is going to turn into one of those stupid arguments when we go on to ask you who we have supposed to have poached from the Scots and you'll come out with some rubbish about a guy who was born and brought up in England but with Scottish parents.

To which the only responsible argument will be to mention the 100% English lad (whose name escapes me right now) who was capped based on being born North of the border when his dad was briefly posted there as part of his military career.

Are you thinking of Tom Heathcote ?? Came through the Bath academy and was considered to be as talented as George Ford but he didn't get the game time and he was born near Inverness as his father was in the RAF and briefly based there.
Andy Robinson picked up on it and turned his head with a Scottish cap and as no longer EQ left Bath and got a contract at I think Edinburgh, which didn't seem to work out. Ended up at Worcester and left the game early still in his twenties.  A talent wasted.

I think it was unfortunately repeated concussions that took him out of the game.

To say a talent wasted is a bit strong I think. He was just very unlucky with injuries and did not fulfill his potential.

You could say the same of a lot of promising young players.

[lostinwales]

gordie - England have been poaching Scots as well!

This is going to turn into one of those stupid arguments when we go on to ask you who we have supposed to have poached from the Scots and you'll come out with some rubbish about a guy who was born and brought up in England but with Scottish parents.

To which the only responsible argument will be to mention the 100% English lad (whose name escapes me right now) who was capped based on being born North of the border when his dad was briefly posted there as part of his military career.

Are you thinking of Tom Heathcote ?? Came through the Bath academy and was considered to be as talented as George Ford but he didn't get the game time and he was born near Inverness as his father was in the RAF and briefly based there.
Andy Robinson picked up on it and turned his head with a Scottish cap and as no longer EQ left Bath and got a contract at I think Edinburgh, which didn't seem to work out. Ended up at Worcester and left the game early still in his twenties.  A talent wasted.

I think it was unfortunately repeated concussions that took him out of the game.

To say a talent wasted is a bit strong I think. He was just very unlucky with injuries and did not fulfill his potential.

You could say the same of a lot of promising young players.

It is easy to forget how important just plain luck and the kind of hidden genetics that impact how people deal with stuff like head injuries are in forging a career.

Add in factors such as when players physically, develop, who is scouting for talent, what teams are looking for (size vs speed/other skills is the oft heard one), how well players fit into the environment they end up in etc. It's easy to see that many people with genuine potential will never make it.

A nephew of mine did get onto the books of a football club but was smart enough to realise that the chances of actually making it were not great and that trying (at that time) would mean missing out of a lot of education, so he gave up on that and is now an educational psychologist.

[Rugby Fan]

Talking of concussion, it seems one of the main reasons Harry Mallinder is trying out as an NFL kicker is that he suffered a bad knock and couldn't turn out for his new club in Japan. His Black Rams contract ended last spring.

He was something of a mystery man in Japan, as I don't think he made a single appearance in two seasons.

[mikey_dragon]

England A have an upcoming clash with Portugal. Just wondering but who are the three SQ players in that squad?

[Poorfour]

It is easy to forget how important just plain luck and the kind of hidden genetics that impact how people deal with stuff like head injuries are in forging a career.

Add in factors such as when players physically, develop, who is scouting for talent, what teams are looking for (size vs speed/other skills is the oft heard one), how well players fit into the environment they end up in etc. It's easy to see that many people with genuine potential will never make it.

A nephew of mine did get onto the books of a football club but was smart enough to realise that the chances of actually making it were not great and that trying (at that time) would mean missing out of a lot of education, so he gave up on that and is now an educational psychologist.

My daughter has a friend who was going through an academy programme and picked up a bad knee injury. As part of the treatment they identified an underlying genetic condition that made future injuries more likely. They can address it, but only with some fairly serious surgery that will mean 3 years out of the game.

The roster of players who could have been greats but for the wrong injury or illness at the wrong time is long and sometimes tragic.

[king_carlos]

Talking of concussion, it seems one of the main reasons Harry Mallinder is trying out as an NFL kicker is that he suffered a bad knock and couldn't turn out for his new club in Japan. His Black Rams contract ended last spring.

He was something of a mystery man in Japan, as I don't think he made a single appearance in two seasons.

I'd wondered what happened there. Yep, he made zero appearances to my knowledge. A shame to add a head knock to his other injury issues though. He never really recovered from the shoulder injury, after which he had such an obvious issue tackling on that side. Be it physical, psychological, or both.

A Saints fan I used to play club rugby alongside in Edinburgh made the interesting suggestion that Mallinder after that injury might have been the least physical defender he'd seen pound for pound. He's a massive bloke and incredible athlete but tackled like early Chris Ashton after that shoulder injury.

[doctor_grey]

Talking of concussion, it seems one of the main reasons Harry Mallinder is trying out as an NFL kicker is that he suffered a bad knock and couldn't turn out for his new club in Japan. His Black Rams contract ended last spring.

He was something of a mystery man in Japan, as I don't think he made a single appearance in two seasons.

I'd wondered what happened there. Yep, he made zero appearances to my knowledge. A shame to add a head knock to his other injury issues though. He never really recovered from the shoulder injury, after which he had such an obvious issue tackling on that side. Be it physical, psychological, or both.

A Saints fan I used to play club rugby alongside in Edinburgh made the interesting suggestion that Mallinder after that injury might have been the least physical defender he'd seen pound for pound. He's a massive bloke and incredible athlete but tackled like early Chris Ashton after that shoulder injury.

That's a heck of an insult, mate! My older daughter tackled better than early Chris Ashton when she was six. Of course, she had two younger brothers to throw around.

Harry is such a shame. Such great potential but really tough injuries. He always had a strong kick so hopefully finds his place. And makes some decent $$$ at the same time.

[lostinwales]

Saw Prince Harry in a U20 game vs Scotland a few years back. Playing at FH he was the biggest guy on the pitch.

England centres that day were Marchant and Williams (now of Wales)

[Poorfour]

Saw Prince Harry in a U20 game vs Scotland a few years back. Playing at FH he was the biggest guy on the pitch.

England centres that day were Marchant and Williams (now of Wales)

That squad had a lot of lauded players in it, but I remember that Marchant was the one the rest of the team looked to when they got into difficulty, and he usually delivered. He created some amazing scores out of nothing

[formerly known as Sam]

Saw Prince Harry in a U20 game vs Scotland a few years back. Playing at FH he was the biggest guy on the pitch.

England centres that day were Marchant and Williams (now of Wales)

That squad had a lot of lauded players in it, but I remember that Marchant was the one the rest of the team looked to when they  got into difficulty, and he usually delivered. He created some amazing scores out of nothing

Theo Brophy-Clewes, Ollie Thorley, Max Malins, Matt Gallagher the backline was pretty good. Some of the forwards weren't bad either, Evans, Singleton, Mercer for instance.

Shame TBC had to retire so young and Mallinder was so regularly broken. Mallinder never looked like a flyhalf, it was like we played with three centres the interplay between the three was good and they did compliment each other well.

[No 7&1/2]

Beard, Lawrence and LCD out. Ojomoh,Muir and Blamire in.

[No 7&1/2]

Muir for me is an average verging to good winger at club level. He shouldn't be near this squad with wingers like Radwan around.

[lostinwales]

Beard, Lawrence and LCD out. Ojomoh,Muir and Blamire in.

Lawrence will be a loss. Doesn't seem to be any news as to what the problem is as yet.

[lostinwales]

Saw Prince Harry in a U20 game vs Scotland a few years back. Playing at FH he was the biggest guy on the pitch.

England centres that day were Marchant and Williams (now of Wales)

That squad had a lot of lauded players in it, but I remember that Marchant was the one the rest of the team looked to when they  got into difficulty, and he usually delivered. He created some amazing scores out of nothing

Theo Brophy-Clewes, Ollie Thorley, Max Malins, Matt Gallagher the backline was pretty good. Some of the forwards weren't bad either, Evans, Singleton, Mercer for instance.

Shame TBC had to retire so young and Mallinder was so regularly broken. Mallinder never looked like a flyhalf, it was like we played with three centres the interplay between the three was good and they did compliment each other well.

I checked out the Scotland squad on the day. Had the likes of Kinghorn, Scott Cummings, and Jamie Richie. The whole Scotland team was very poor that day. They were beaten 44-0

[king_carlos]

Lawrence is a blow with Manu already out. It will be a back line with very few carriers. That could open up a big ol' opportunity for Dingwall at 12 though.

Langdon already being below current LCD was odd to me. Missing out to Blamire as well is even odder.

[No 7&1/2]

Has Langdon been cleared following his red?

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Sounds like a:

Mitchell
Smith
11
Dingwall
Freeman
14

Backline, not sure which Smith though.

[No 7&1/2]

Slade still lurks in the squad.

[Mr Bounce]

Lawrence out would be a big loss. That said, it pretty much opens the door for Dingwall as mentioned above.

I think Muir is simply there to make up the numbers and has only a slightly better chance than me of making the match day 23. As said, he's a good club player but not really good enough for an International.

I expect we'll see Dingwall and Slade.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Lawrence out would be a big loss. That said, it pretty much opens the door for Dingwall as mentioned above.

I think Muir is simply there to make up the numbers and has only a slightly better chance than me of making the match day 23. As said, he's a good club player but not really good enough for an International.

I expect we'll see Dingwall and Slade.

Freeman has been the form 13 most of this season, Slade has been good, but doe snot have Freemans power. If you have Dingwall at 12, common sense says Freeman at 13, especially with Mitchell at 9. Look at the number of tries scored this season by Mitchell and Freeman understanding what's on and hitting that space together.

[doctor_grey]

Lawrence out would be a big loss. That said, it pretty much opens the door for Dingwall as mentioned above.

I think Muir is simply there to make up the numbers and has only a slightly better chance than me of making the match day 23. As said, he's a good club player but not really good enough for an International.

I expect we'll see Dingwall and Slade.

Freeman has been the form 13 most of this season, Slade has been good, but doe snot have Freemans power. If you have Dingwall at 12, common sense says Freeman at 13, especially with Mitchell at 9. Look at the number of tries scored this season by Mitchell and Freeman understanding what's on and hitting that space together.

Ah heck, just complete the puzzle, mate.  Just put Alex Mitchell at 9, Fin at 10,  Ollie Sleightholme at 11, Dinger at 12, Freeman at 13, and Furbank at 15.  This back line will rock like crazy after it finishes rolling the opposition.  And even leaves a place at 14 for Borthwick to put Steward back there as well.

[carpet baboon]

Even though I'm Irish and have a tremendous amount of glee seeing England struggle, I really would love to see SB pick an attacking backline and come out guns blazing.
How long is Lawrence out for? I really rate him (as a 13 not a 12)

[Geordie]

Freeman in at 13 then...

Going to be half the Saints backline

[Mr Bounce]

Still reckon SB will pick Slade. Doesn't make it the right choice, but that's what I think he'll do...

[formerly known as Sam]

You might get your wish Doc and WPI. Borthwick said this earlier.

"You look at the way Fin, and Mitch [Alex Mitchell] and Tommy Freeman and Fraser Dingwall, the way they have taken Northampton on," said Borthwick.

"I think they have changed the way they have played slightly, and I think it is a great change.

"Away in Thomond Park in those conditions, the way they stayed in that fight, the way they were relentless in doing the right thing at the right time and the way they took scoring opportunities, I think that shows a team that has the right mindset, the mindset we want to make sure we have with this England team."

[Geordie]

Kelly has fallen down the order mind of Ojomoh is,preferred...

[king_carlos]

I rate Kelly but he was genuinely dire for the start of the season. He had the worst game I've seen him play by a mile in R1, then reproduced it about a month and a half. It was almost bizarre how previous strengths in his game had evaporated. There's been a comparative uplift recently but he's still nowhere near his best. I've little issue with him missing out currently. I'd be disappointed if he also missed the Portugal game that may or may not happen.

Somewhat similar with Murley actually. I'd have him in the squad ahead of Muir but he hasn't been back at his best yet this season by a long stretch.

[Geordie]

How many games has Murley played? He's missed a fre with injury hasn't he.

Edit: he's only played 5 games this season...

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