England Red Roses

Thought I'd create thread for England women team.

One bit of (bad) news is Sarah Bern out of 6N with knee injury. Despite the strength in depth England have that is a massive blow as she is a superb player. Not only brilliant in scrum but devestating with ball in hand running through and around opposition.

England no doubt again be strong favourites again but I'm hoping other 6N teams are on up.

Sarah Bern is probably our best player. I think she started as a centre before converting to prop. Quite a change! It explains the sidesteps and good hands.

It's really good to see Abbie Ward back; I believe that we are well stocked at lock now (Sarah Beckett has seemingly been converted to a Paull Willemse-esque enforcer) as we've also got Rosie Galligan, not one known to take a backward step. Add in the awesome Zoe Aldcroft (currently nursing an injury I believe) and the cupboard is far from bare.

I'm not sure if Poppy Cleall has elected not to play? Seems strange that she's been left out? The back row is scarily good. Potentially the starting 3 could be Kabeya, Packer, Matthews as per the last 6 Nations, but there's so many decent back rowers in the squad that most of them are good enough to start.

Scrum half, even without Leanne Infante (who herself has recently had a baby) is looking string with Mo Hunt, Ella Wyrwas and Lucy Packer, who looks a bit like a scared schoolgirl but is apparently one of the toughest in the squad and is likely to be first choice. Appearances are definitely deceptive in her case!

We're well stocked with centres, plus the back 3 contains some of the best in the world in Mcdonald, Dow and Kildunne (who my friend and I have nicknamed "No Pass" as she often backs herself to the line).

I am going to HQ to watch them against Ireland. Looking forward to it. Grand Slam again? Quite possibly.

My only criticism of Red Roses is they need to use backs a bit more at times. The pack is so dominant that it's inevitable they win so many games through purely over powering opposition. NZ in RWC were I'd say better in backline so if England improve just slightly back play they will be unbeatable. Hopefully Mitchell will bring this.

They need to get likes of Dow, Rowlands and Kildunne on ball as much as possible(which they do often it has to be said).

As for Poppy Cleall that's an odd omission. She was injured but apparently back to full fitness. She is a brilliant 8, I always thought better than Hunter last few years of Hunter Eng career.

Tatiana Heard is a good addition of a hard running 12 which should help, and certainly did work well in the games last season.

Helena Rowland is unfortunate that she's got SO much talent she just gets shoehorned in wherever they can as she's too good to leave out. I think not having her due to injury made a huge difference to the World Cup final. She's represented England at 10, 12, 13 and 15, and has done well at all. Personally I think the 2x playmaker plan with her at 12 and Zoe Harrison at 10 worked brilliantly. I just hope she gets to stay in one position and make it her own.

Yes agree. Rowland in centre is best for England although as you say she can pretty much play anywhere.
Scarratt world class but again out injured so I wonder if her career over.

I think Scarratt is done. Her neck injury has been ongoing for about a year now. So unfortunate for her. She's such a good player. I remember watching her live back in 2012. She didn't so much run, as glide across the pitch. A fabulous player and brilliant athlete.

Full squad is out. And it turns out that Emily Scarratt is pretty far from done! Excellent news!
Claudia McDonald's injured though.

England recall Scarratt & Harrison for Six Nations - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68535962

Yes once mens 6N over there's the womens to look forward to and I really enjoy the games. Great skill and less reliance on pure physicality for most part.

Women's Six Nations 2024: Marlie Packer to win 100th cap in England's opener against Italy - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68624927

That's a scarily good team. And such strength in depth. Amy Cokayne, Tatiana Heard, Poppy Cleall (banned) and Emma Sing aren't even in the squad.

Be interesting to see Scaz at 12.

Abbie Ward back in team after having a baby, she's a class act.

I hope to see more from backs this 6N, Mitchell in as head coach so I reckon we will.

Well, got my tickets for the Ireland game, looking forward to that. It will be the first time my Mrs. has seen and the Red Roses game live.

Despite a red very early on England are giving Italy a bit of a thrashing ..

England really rusty especially in 1st half. Red was a red but not intentional so hopefully not a long ban.
England far too good though and will be so much better next week.

A lot to work on, but John Mitchell said that one of the things he wanted to work on with England was how to respond better to adversity. Italy aren’t the toughest opponents they will face, but it was a good workout to play that long with 14 and 13 players - and get that result. The squad featured a lot of players coming back from long lay offs, and I suspect not all of them will be included against tougher opposition - but Mitchell will have a much better sense of his squad from this.

I felt that the referee was a bit one sided when it came to infringements for Italy. There were several incidents of breakdown infringements near Italy's try line which were conveniently overlooked as well as a blatant no arms tackle which both the Ref and the TMO missed.

Hopefully Sarah Beckett's ban won't be too long. But it does open the door to our "replacement" number 8. Poppy Cleall. Strength in depth indeed.

Round of applause for Sadia Kabeya, Kelsey Clifford, Abbie Ward, Zoe Aldcroft, Helena Rowland (yellow aside) and the awesome Ellie Kildunne. Zoe Harrison's kicking was off, but that aside, she did alright. Marlie was Marlie. The scrum was dominant.

What really impressed me was the defence and the dealing with adversity. Well done Red Roses. To score 8 tries and nil a team when you play 69 minutes a player down, and a further 10 minutes with 13 was fantastic.

Downsides? Handling errors, discipline, Scarratt was poor, as was Lucy Packer, Breach and Dow were well shackled and received precious little ball that they could do anything with.

Two favourite bits for me: Sadia Kabeya's devastating tackles and England sticking 2 fingers up at the opposition and scoring a try when down to 13. Ruthless.

Botterman was fantasic as well, just unstoppable. Her and Ward pick of forwards and Kildunne and Rowland in backs.
Scarratt a very off day. Kicking from tee improved in 2nd half but it was pretty poor overall. An achilles heel for women at times.

Mr Bounce wrote:I felt that the referee was a bit one sided when it came to infringements for Italy. There were several incidents of breakdown infringements near Italy's try line which were conveniently overlooked as well as a blatant no arms tackle which both the Ref and the TMO missed.

Hopefully Sarah Beckett's ban won't be too long. But it does open the door to our "replacement" number 8. Poppy Cleall. Strength in depth indeed.

Round of applause for Sadia Kabeya, Kelsey Clifford, Abbie Ward, Zoe Aldcroft, Helena Rowland (yellow aside) and the awesome Ellie Kildunne. Zoe Harrison's kicking was off, but that aside, she did alright. Marlie was Marlie. The scrum was dominant.

What really impressed me was the defence and the dealing with adversity. Well done Red Roses. To score 8 tries and nil a team when you play 69 minutes a player down, and a further 10 minutes with 13 was fantastic.

Downsides? Handling errors, discipline, Scarratt was poor, as was Lucy Packer, Breach and Dow were well shackled and received precious little ball that they could do anything with.

Two favourite bits for me: Sadia Kabeya's devastating tackles and England sticking 2 fingers up at the opposition and scoring a try when down to 13. Ruthless.

Agree about the ref and the TMO, from the first scrum when Italy went backwards at a run, they were trying to equalise things.

Don't forget Alex Matthews at 8, in my opinion a natural replacement for Sarah Hunter in terms of style and dynamism, Poppy is excellent but in a different way. You could see that the lack of a third jumper affected our line out, it took till about half time to win any clean ball.

The defence was fantastic with a player missing for 70 minutes or so, the Italians really couldn't put the phases together to find the holes, it help having the pace of the Roses back three but Ellie Kildunne was stand out, I am not sure who she reminds me of; she accelerates so fast but there is just no sign that she is doing it, it is effortless.

It is not often that a 7 player pack (even the Roses) can dominate the scrum like they did, even when we emptied the bench, we were if anything more dominant.

In the second half the backs got it together, their linking and cohesion is something that the men should be trying to attain.

Has Abbie Dow put on some muscle, she seemed to be dragging tacklers around like a loose forward, never a step backwards. Jess Breach did not seem herself, she seems to have lost a bit pace and the ability to side step, two or three times she just went straight down the line where a step inside would have put her in a bit of space to get a weak shoulder on the covering defenders.

As Mr. Bounce said, Ellie Kildunne was stand out, so good in the air (can she teach Furbank how she does it), dangerous every time she had ball in hand and superb defence and cover.

Roll on next week.................

Kildunne is up there with the top players of either sex.

It was very much a game of two halves, Brian...

In the first half, England were fielding a side with unfamiliar combinations and five players returning to the game after time out, with one of them played out of position. They also had the same problem that the men did against Scotland, in that the timing wasn't quite there and they kept losing the ball in consequence. The red card amplified all of that - but England got their defence working and then gradually tightened up the bits that weren't working.

The second half saw players with more game time slot into the team and superior fitness begin to show. England will need to improve in a number of areas, most notably the lineout and kicking, but they eventually passed most of the tests put in front of them. Selection for next week is going to be interesting - how much will Mitchell change and will he persist with any of the returning players who didn't immediately click? (Though huge credit to Abby Ward, who put in an excellent shift).

Kildunne's seemingly effortless speed reminds me of Will Jordan

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68670903

3 week ban for Sarah Beckett's red card. It was clumsy rather than intentional but the Italian player did end up with a fracture. Ouch. Hope she's OK.

In most other circumstances, Beckett would have completed the roll with no harm done and not got flagged for it, but I think this incident indicates why the authorities are trying to clamp down on it. You had a mismatch of size and Beckett didn't control her own weight, resulting in a nasty injury (that could have been worse - seems odd to say in but better a fracture than an ligament injury).

It does raise the question of what is legal in terms of clearout now, especially when the opposing player is low and clamped onto a body. One thing I have seen is ruckers pulling defenders forward over the ruck and off their feet, which seems a safer option.

Poorfour wrote:In most other circumstances, Beckett would have completed the roll with no harm done and not got flagged for it, but I think this incident indicates why the authorities are trying to clamp down on it. You had a mismatch of size and Beckett didn't control her own weight, resulting in a nasty injury (that could have been worse - seems odd to say in but better a fracture than an ligament injury).

It does raise the question of what is legal in terms of clearout now, especially when the opposing player is low and clamped onto a body. One thing I have seen is ruckers pulling defenders forward over the ruck and off their feet, which seems a safer option.

Having finally seen it, it didn't look safe. Maybe reminiscent of the Willis leg break. I suppose where we are getting at with these discussion is what is safe given the need to clear out the jackler.

Hope the Italian recovers soon.

Mitchell reaches into his big bag of talent and makes 7 changes. New half backs, centres, and some pack changes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68683523

Meg Jones is awesome and hard as nails. Well Past It called Matthews at 8. What a player. Nice to see Rosie Galligan back as well. Tatyana Heard at 12 is a great decision. Thought she was one of the best players in last year's 6N. And my favourite player Mo Hunt starts which I am happy about! Plus of course the amazing Zoe Aldcroft winning her 50th cap!

Rowland out injured which is a shame.
However, realistically any England XV going to be too good but we want to see a better performance than last week(we will).

A pretty comprehensive win from England, despite Wales fronting up and a ref who seemed much happier to give Wales leeway than England. Still a lot to improve on - the Welsh offloading game was much slicker than England’s, and several potential tries were butchered by individual players getting white line fever rather than using their support. The scary thing is how good England could be when they start to get on each other’s wavelength.

Given how much France struggled against Scotland, another English Grand Slam is on the cards if they can cut out the mistakes

A good game. England always going to win but Wales took it to them especially first 20mins.

One thing though, kicking is woeful. Aitchison terrible from hand and especially off tee. That has to improve. For pro players it is a real achilles heel and in a close game could be match decider.

mountain man wrote:A good game. England always going to win but Wales took it to them especially first 20mins.

One thing though, kicking is woeful. Aitchison terrible from hand and especially off tee. That has to improve. For pro players it is a real achilles heel and in a close game could be match decider.

The odd thing was that she wasn’t too far off with most of her kicks - two of them hit the upright. Clearly her radar is slightly misaligned.

The positive thing for England is that on current form I can’t see a game coming down to kicks until they next face New Zealand. Scotland have improved, but France look out of sorts and Ireland are still developing, so I can see them relying on their try scoring ability for the rest of the tournament and not needing to improve kicking.

But several were miles off, really poor I thought.

It needs sorting and immediately. OK maybe only NZ pose a serious challenge (along with France and possibly Canada) but if a player gets an early card etc then games potentially could be tight and missing so many gettable points just isn't good enough.

Imagine if next year in home RWC England lose final because of easy missed kicks. Heartbreak for team.

As for no need to improve kicking, completely disagree on that. Red Roses are a pro team in every sense of the word so this must and I'm sure will be addressed.

mountain man wrote:But several were miles off, really poor I thought.

It needs sorting and immediately. OK maybe only NZ pose a serious challenge (along with France and possibly Canada) but if a player gets an early card etc then games potentially could be tight and missing so many gettable points just isn't good enough.

Imagine if next year in home RWC England lose final because of easy missed kicks. Heartbreak for team.

As for no need to improve kicking, completely disagree on that. Red Roses are a pro team in every sense of the word so this must and I'm sure will be addressed.

The question is what constitutes “immediately”. A kicking action is a bit like a golf swing - if you’re going to try to change it, sometimes you need to break it down and then it can take a bit of time. One possibility - and I’m not saying this is the case but it would be consistent with Mitchell’s stated approach - is that England’s kickers have taken a dip in reliability because they’re rebuilding their kicking ahead of the RWC.

Another thing to remember is that for an awfully long time, England were solely reliant on Emily Scarratt's kicking. As she's as rusty as an abandoned Ford Cortina at the moment, and has been out for several months, the kicking has fallen to Aitchison (and Harrison). Holly was more of a centre when pushed into fly half due to injuries to both Harrison and Rowland, and she didn't do a bad job.

However, her place kicking isn't great because I don't believe she'd done much before last year. It may be that she's just not really a kicker, but is better in other aspects of the game. How long do we leave it though before trying someone else if she's just not up to it?

I suspect that’s why Mitchell is looking to convert Scarratt (who had a disc replaced in her neck - it’s remarkable that she’s playing at all) to a 12, given that Aitchison has become a very good fly half in most other aspects and we have a load of options at 13. It’s tough on Heard (who has been consistently excellent) and also on Lagi Tuima (who’s been great when given the chance), but would solve some problems if it works. Come to think of it, though, if England want a 12 who’s a reliable goal kicker, Tuima is a pretty good shout herself.

The question is what constitutes “immediately”.

As in this week in training. Kicking is a skill which takes time to develop, both technique and confidence. Look at likes of Wilkinson, Farrell, Ford etc they spent/spend hours and hours practising goal kicks and they are top draw kickers.

It's no good waiting until RWC training camp and then start thinking about it. Pretty much all of the womens teams aren't great at goal kicking so if one team can get 2 or 3 place kickers to have say even a modest kicking success that would make them standout from rest and if its England who already do then they could become almost unbeatable.
If Aitchison isn't capable then Mitchelll needs to make the decision and hand responsibility to others as I'm sure he would.
Remember, this isn't a casual part time outfit playing for fun on a weekend. They are the top pro team in world so high standards should apply to all aspects of game.

It might seem unfair given England are so good everywhere else but it was an obvious flaw on Saturday.

You misunderstand me. I’m not saying they’re waiting until the RWC camp - I’m saying they may have decided that they need to rebuild Aitchison’s kicking now so that it’s reliable by the RWC. In which case she may be going through a bad patch that will improve as she gets more familiar with a new technique.

I hope you don’t seriously think they’re not practicing kicks in training. But top sports teams know that sometimes they have to sacrifice performance at one stage to get better results at a more important point. Borthwick was widely criticised for England’s warm up performances, but with hindsight he was sacrificing those games to give them the fitness that took them within one point of an RWC Final.

When have I suggesting they don't practise kicking?

You did say this which I disagree with though :

so I can see them relying on their try scoring ability for the rest of the tournament and not needing to improve kicking.

For clarification my entire point is as one of if not the best team in world they should be looking at all aspects of game and improving any weak areas. Kicking is one of them and I am sure this is/will be addressed.
It was glaring obvious how poor the kicking was on Saturday I thought. Others may disagree...

I should have been clearer - not needing to improve it for the rest of the tournament. England can probably win this 6N without needing to kick well. They will need to be better for RWC 2025, and probably for this season’s WXV1

World Rugby considering a trial of smaller balls for women (oo-er missus).

Currently they play with size 5 same as men but trialing 4.5, idea though getting a mixd response.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68776863

mountain man wrote:World Rugby considering a trial of smaller balls for women (oo-er missus).

Currently they play with size 5 same as men but trialing 4.5, idea though getting a mixd response.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68776863

There are some interesting related articles on the need for more kit that's actually designed for women:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/68542035

And on the apparent risk of ACL injuries being increased by not having boots designed for them:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64032536

But on a more positive note, Impact '25 - around raising sporting participation and access for women - has officially launched with 500 days to go until RWC 2025:
https://www.world.rugby/news/921015/impact-25-programme-officially-launches-with-500-days-to-go-to-womens-rugby-world-cup-2025

It is crazy that kit for professional sportswomen is only now being specifically designed for them. I know Laura Trott/Kenny had a lot of issues with bib shorts not being well fitted etc.

mountain man wrote:It is crazy that kit for professional sportswomen is only now being specifically designed for them. I know Laura Trott/Kenny had a lot of issues with bib shorts not being well fitted etc.

It's been encouraging this season to see both Quins and England offering women's replica kit alongside the men's gear.

It'd be interesting to know if the ACL issue (which seems to be to do with stud patterns not being suited for women's different leg angles) is also there in rugby - though I guess having interchangeable studs helps if you know what size to use.

When did lifting the leg with no danger become a YC offence? Cockayne lifted a player above the horizontal but she was returned to the ground safely. As far as I can see from WR’s Law Application Guidelines, that’s now classified as Foul Play but there is nothing about it being an automatic YC. And a few weeks ago Fin Baxter was penalised in. Quins game for lifting the leg but not carded - so if there has been a change it’s happened in the last month or so.

I was thinking the same thing - commentary team were banging on about how it could have been more which was total tosh - she was clearly brought down safely.

Heaf wrote:I was thinking the same thing - commentary team were banging on about how it could have been more which was total tosh - she was clearly brought down safely.

I’m glad I’m not the only one… The conspiracy theorist in me wonders if John Mitchell has told the refs to be especially harsh on England, given he wants them to do better at coping with adversity/

1.1 million peak audience watched England in their opening round against Italy. 1.2m watched the game with Wales. Big increase on last year.

BBC, ITV & Channel four all competing to broadcast the World Cup next year apparently.

2 week ban for Amy Cokayne for last week's double yellow, reduced to 1 for unspecified mitigation.

Probably par for the course - the initial yellow was harsh; the second one justified.

At the other end of the scrum, Sarah Beckett has server her ban and is back. It will be interesting to see if Mitchell continues his rotation strategy in the buildup to France.

Also, does anyone else hear the name of Ireland's Aoife Wafer to the tune of Eton Rifles?

Just me, then? I'll get me coat.

Line ups for Saturday. Going with Mrs Poorfour and Ms Poorfour Maj, and looking forward to it...

England: Kildunne; Dow, Jones, Heard, Breach; Aitchison, Hunt; Botterman, Atkin-Davies, Muir, Aldcroft, Galligan, Kabeya, Packer (capt), Matthews.

Replacements: Powell, Carson, Clifford, Talling, Feaunati, L Packer, Scarratt, Gregson.

Ireland: Delany; Corrigan, Higgins, Dalton, Parsons; O'Brien, Reilly; Djougang, Jones, Haney; Wall, O'Connor, Wafer, McMahon, Hogan.

Replacements: Moloney, O'Dowd, McGrath, Tuite, Ikahihifo, Scuffil-McCabe, Breen, Deely.

Some further rotation from Mitchell but mostly on the bench. I suspect Abbie Ward is rested rather than dropped, but I wouldn't be surprised to see that side starting against France as well.

The backline looks to have settled into a preferred configuration unless Scarratt has a blinder off the bench, while the pack still has a bit of rotation but so many players in form.

Just back from a week cycling around Mallorca. Fortunately hotel had BBC channels so caught Scotland game last weekend there.

As for this week, despite him saying there's no rotation, I reckon Mitchell is making sure his 1st XV get game time and are also rested in advance of France game. Hence Ward rested, Packer starts etc. Hopefully Scarratt has a better game this week, she was (understandably) rusty against Italy.

Just catching up with the Ireland game and I know the RR are good but Irish tackling leaves a lot to be desired.

England just outstanding. Ireland missing so many tackles but that's due to wave after wave of attack.
Standout player Meg Jones but mentions to Heard, Dow and Kildunne.

The Jones dummy and sidestep for her 2nd try was a thing of beauty. Kildunne is playing a different game than everybody else and the only reason Dow is not more celebrated is because she's operating in her shadow.